JoJoTownsell1 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 List of Franchise QBs and how their current teams obtained them: Brady- Drafted Big Ben- Drafted Elli- Drafted Rodgers- Drafted Rivers- Drafted Wilson- Drafted Brees- Free Agent (when the Chargers drafted Rivers) Flacco- Drafted Carr- Drafted Luck- Drafted Dak- Drafted Cousins- Drafted Cam- Drafted Ryan- Drafted Stafford- Drafted Winston Drafted So aside from the Brees trade that happened 11 years ago (mainly because they were in position to draft another franchise QB), how many teams trade away future franchise QBs? ZERO. Why is that? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that 99.99pct of Gms/Coaches aren't stupid and if they draft a kid with Franchise QB ability, they don't let them go. What kind of QB can you find in a trade? Alex Smith. Sam Bradford. OK QBs that need elite talent around them to win. This just proves that this team should just keep drafting QBs until they find a franchise QB and give up on trading for or signing someone else's reject/backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 You trade for a QB when you are afraid you are going to get fired for going 4 and 12 with the bust QB's you drafted the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggin94it Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Brees left SD as a free agent. Eli Manning and Rivers were both acquired by trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Beerfish said: You trade for a QB when you are afraid you are going to get fired for going 4 and 12 with the bust QB's you drafted the last few years. Which is why trading for a starting QB should be banned by every owner. There is no question, you do not and can not trade for a legit franchise QB, and other teams castoffs, failed draft picks, and/or over the hill downside veterans are not legit answers at the QB position. Draft a QB every year, as high as is reasonable/possible/appropriate, while building the team around then young QB's. Then hire a GM who can actually scout QB talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 15 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: List of Franchise QBs and how their current teams obtained them: Brady- Drafted Big Ben- Drafted Elli- Drafted Rodgers- Drafted Rivers- Drafted Wilson- Drafted Brees- Traded (when the Chargers drafted Rivers) Flacco- Drafted Carr- Drafted Luck- Drafted Dak- Drafted Cousins- Drafted Cam- Drafted Ryan- Drafted Stafford- Drafted Winston Drafted SAM DARNOLD DRAFTED (NYJ) So aside from the Brees trade that happened 11 years ago (mainly because they were in position to draft another franchise QB), how many teams trade away future franchise QBs? ZERO. Why is that? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that 99.99pct of Gms/Coaches aren't stupid and if they draft a kid with Franchise QB ability, they don't let them go. What kind of QB can you find in a trade? Alex Smith. Sam Bradford. OK QBs that need elite talent around them to win. This just proves that this team should just keep drafting QBs until they find a franchise QB and give up on trading for or signing someone else's reject/backup. 100% agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTownsell1 Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, Doggin94it said: Brees left SD as a free agent. Eli Manning and Rivers were both acquired by trade. Good point on Brees. But way off on Eli and Rivers as both were acquired in a draft day deal. So it wasn't like the Giants had Rivers in camp for a year or two and then opted to trade him away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggin94it Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, JoJoTownsell1 said: Good point on Brees. But way off on Eli and Rivers as both were acquired in a draft day deal. So it wasn't like the Giants had Rivers in camp for a year or two and then opted to trade him away. Wait, are you saying my literally accurate busting of your balls missed your deeper philosophical intent? My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Doggin94it said: Wait, are you saying my literally accurate busting of your balls missed your deeper philosophical intent? My bad. Well, to be fair, you did pull the ol' "technically......" nerd argument on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 COMPETITIVE REBUILD! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerous Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 42 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: List of Franchise QBs and how their current teams obtained them: Brady- Drafted Big Ben- Drafted Elli- Drafted Rodgers- Drafted Rivers- Drafted Wilson- Drafted Brees- Traded (when the Chargers drafted Rivers) Flacco- Drafted Carr- Drafted Luck- Drafted Dak- Drafted Cousins- Drafted Cam- Drafted Ryan- Drafted Stafford- Drafted Winston Drafted So aside from the Brees trade that happened 11 years ago (mainly because they were in position to draft another franchise QB), how many teams trade away future franchise QBs? ZERO. Why is that? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that 99.99pct of Gms/Coaches aren't stupid and if they draft a kid with Franchise QB ability, they don't let them go. What kind of QB can you find in a trade? Alex Smith. Sam Bradford. OK QBs that need elite talent around them to win. This just proves that this team should just keep drafting QBs until they find a franchise QB and give up on trading for or signing someone else's reject/backup. favre was traded from atlanta to green bay. didn't steve young go to the 49ers via a trade? tarkenton was traded too. imo it's too simplistic to say a team shouldn't trade for a qb. it more like teams are unwilling to give up what it takes. and it also brings into play the value of a qb. teams don't seem to want to move away from their starter even though, at times, it's the best thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
varjet Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 41 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: What kind of QB can you find in a trade? Alex Smith. Sam Bradford. OK QBs that need elite talent around them to win. This just proves that this team should just keep drafting QBs until they find a franchise QB and give up on trading for or signing someone else's reject/backup. You can add Peyton to that list too, but in each of those cases the teams were sufficiently built and could add a game manager. The Jets are no where and need both a team and a QB. They have no business trading for a veteran and paying too much for a free agent. Out of those 16 QBs, 7 were top 5 picks, 3 were otherwise in the first round, 2 were in the second round, and 4 were in rounds 3 and below. The Jets have picked more QBs in the last X years than any other team in the NFL. Finding a QB in the draft is doable. They just have to pick smart and develop them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTownsell1 Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, rangerous said: favre was traded from atlanta to green bay. didn't steve young go to the 49ers via a trade? tarkenton was traded too. imo it's too simplistic to say a team shouldn't trade for a qb. it more like teams are unwilling to give up what it takes. and it also brings into play the value of a qb. teams don't seem to want to move away from their starter even though, at times, it's the best thing to do. So you listed 3 instances in the last 30 years. That kind of proves my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerous Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, JoJoTownsell1 said: So you listed 3 instances in the last 30 years. That kind of proves my point. i didn't say it didn't. it's just that the position is very valuable and it's hard to make the deals. it also takes some time for a qb to adapt his play to a new team and vice versa. the great ones can do it but usually they'll be traded away towards the end of their careers like favre or montana or even namath. and if a top qb wants to leave his team he can do all by himself without a trade by becoming a free agent. and don't forget that the cba also makes trades very difficult. in the 60's and 70's it was easy to trade players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASH1962 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Sanchez - Career destroyed by NY Jets Geno - Career "impaired" and possibly destroyed by NY Jets Chadwick - Career destroyed by Injury to noodle arm Clemens - Hideous pick in round 2 Petty - ?? Hackenberg - BIG ??? The best QB we have ever had beside Joe was Vinny T who we got as a FA or in trade. Did I forget anyone? I don't know about you, but I think maybe it is time to buck that trend.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetFaninMI Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, ASH1962 said: Sanchez - Career destroyed by NY Jets Geno - Career "impaired" and possibly destroyed by NY Jets Chadwick - Career destroyed by Injury to noodle arm Clemens - Hideous pick in round 2 Petty - ?? Hackenberg - BIG ??? The best QB we have ever had beside Joe was Vinny T who we got as a FA or in trade. Did I forget anyone? I don't know about you, but I think maybe it is time to buck that trend.... Geno"friggin"Smith destroyed his own career. He had the job and threw it away. Good thing he did before they gave him a huge deal and then found out about his lack of character and immaturity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 11 minutes ago, ASH1962 said: Sanchez - Career destroyed by NY Jets Geno - Career "impaired" and possibly destroyed by NY Jets Chadwick - Career destroyed by Injury to noodle arm Clemens - Hideous pick in round 2 Petty - ?? Hackenberg - BIG ??? The best QB we have ever had beside Joe was Vinny T who we got as a FA or in trade. Did I forget anyone? I don't know about you, but I think maybe it is time to buck that trend.... The 1st two on your list 100% for sure did not fail because of the NY Jets. I would list Clemens as a fail because of the jets though with the players and oline we gave him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: What kind of QB can you find in a trade? Alex Smith. Sam Bradford. OK QBs that need elite talent around them to win. This just proves that this team should just keep drafting QBs until they find a franchise QB and give up on trading for or signing someone else's reject/backup. Draft Watson or Kizer and just just pray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section314 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 7 minutes ago, prime21 said: Draft Watson or Kizer and just just pray. The team that picks Kizer will need much more than prayers. Grain alcohol and powerful sedatives for starters. He is terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTownsell1 Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 8 minutes ago, prime21 said: Draft Watson or Kizer and just just pray. Until we have a franchise QB, I will never complain about the Jets drafting guys like Kizer/Watson/Trubisky/Mahomes. But all those guys are huge question marks for various reasons. Hack was also a question mark then again so was Dak. At some point we have to get lucky....right???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTownsell1 Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, section314 said: The team that picks Kizer will need much more than prayers. Grain alcohol and powerful sedatives for starters. He is terrible. He is very raw and has leadership issues, so yeah, out of all of the top QB prospects he is the one to avoid which means WELCOME TO THE JETS Deshone!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section314 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Just now, JoJoTownsell1 said: He is very raw and has leadership issues, so yeah, out of all of the top QB prospects he is the one to avoid which means WELCOME TO THE JETS Deshone!!! You know this team all too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetster Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 This is actually a great point. So if we reevaluate how we go about the draft & because we are in a terrible QB position in a league where teams only thrive with a franchise QB then why would any Jet fan complain if we took Deshaun Watson if he falls to 6 & take Sam Darnold in 2018 when we pick 1st overall? We haven't won ANYTHING since 1968. We haven't drafted a franchise QB since Namath. Clearly by looking at you post why would it be THAT CRAZY to try & get our franchise while Brady is getting into his mid Forties? I would rather miss on trying to draft a franchise QB than some of the crap we've picked over the years before Macc. Since 2008 Vernon Gholston (Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Dustin Keller (Mark Sánchez (we tried), Kyle Wilson (Sam Bradford/Total Busts) , Mo Wilkerson (Andy Dalton), Quinton Coples (Luck,Tannyhill, Cousins, Wilson) Dee Milliner (Geno Smith (Tried), Mike Glennon)) Calvin Pryor (Carr, Bridgewater). So, if you look back since 2008, other than 2010 there were QBs to be had. We would be WAY BETTER off if we found 1 instead of what we ended up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Sam Bradford is very upset with this thread. Alex Smith read this thread and kicked his dog. Carson Palmer read this thread and injured his finger nail on his non-throwing hand and is out for the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jetster said: This is actually a great point. So if we reevaluate how we go about the draft & because we are in a terrible QB position in a league where teams only thrive with a franchise QB then why would any Jet fan complain if we took Deshaun Watson if he falls to 6 & take Sam Darnold in 2018 when we pick 1st overall? We haven't won ANYTHING since 1968. We haven't drafted a franchise QB since Namath. Clearly by looking at you post why would it be THAT CRAZY to try & get our franchise while Brady is getting into his mid Forties? I would rather miss on trying to draft a franchise QB than some of the crap we've picked over the years before Macc. Since 2008 Vernon Gholston (Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Dustin Keller (Mark Sánchez (we tried), Kyle Wilson (Sam Bradford/Total Busts) , Mo Wilkerson (Andy Dalton), Quinton Coples (Luck,Tannyhill, Cousins, Wilson) Dee Milliner (Geno Smith (Tried), Mike Glennon)) Calvin Pryor (Carr, Bridgewater). So, if you look back since 2008, other than 2010 there were QBs to be had. We would be WAY BETTER off if we found 1 instead of what we ended up with. What? Ryan went before Gholston. Flacco before Keller. Bradford and Tebow both went before Wilson. Like 4 QBs went before Wilkerson, though you are correct, Dalton was still there. So was Kaerpernick. Yippee! Luck and Tannehill were gone well before we picked Coples. It is since they drafted Geno that you have more of a point. Carr and Bridgewater were there and I would hope that they didn't pass them over because of Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Other QB's in history who read this thread and are upset in some way: Brett Favre, John Elway, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theisman, Fran Tarkenton, Jay Cutler, Trent Green, Brad Johnson, Rick Mirer, Joe Montana and Richard Todd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike135 Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Good breakdown and reminder of why drafting QBs is much better than going the FA route. But this only addresses two methods. Drafting and trading. The Jets have their own unique methods. They draft guys and then either: 1. Set them up to fail by changing OCs almost annually and not giving them any weapons/support. 2. The new technique of drafting QBs but then deciding not to play them. I mean they have to prove they can win before playing, and they can't prove it without playing. It's a tough conundrum and it makes Bowles' head hurt. So instead they bring in QBs who absolutely suck ass that no other team wants. Then we can keep the worthless young QBs who we draft on the bench, while starting QBs who have at least proven to suck. It's a highly technical problem, but rest assured our team has a uniquely designed solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTownsell1 Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 12 minutes ago, JiF said: Sam Bradford is very upset with this thread. Alex Smith read this thread and kicked his dog. Carson Palmer read this thread and injured his finger nail on his non-throwing hand and is out for the season. All 3 of those teams would dump those guys for a real franchise QB. 2 minutes ago, JiF said: Other QB's in history who read this thread and are upset in some way: Brett Favre, John Elway, Jim Plunkett, Joe Theisman, Fran Tarkenton, Jay Cutler, Trent Green, Brad Johnson, Rick Mirer, Joe Montana and Richard Todd. Favre was one of the few that were drafted by one team and ended up becoming a HOF QB with another team. And much of that was due to Favre being a headcase in Atlanta forcing them to part ways. My point is not that you can NEVER find a franchise QB via trade/FA it's just very very very rare. Most of the QBs that have success after a trade are normally "game managers" or stud QBs at the end of their careers (Manning/Montana). Very few blossom into stud Franchise QBs only AFTER they are traded which is what teams would hoping for out of a Glennon/Mccarron/Daniel/Garrappolo type signing/trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 1 hour ago, rangerous said: favre was traded from atlanta to green bay. In 1992, his second year in the league with no pro resume to speak of yet. 25 years ago. Quote didn't steve young go to the 49ers via a trade? Young played in the USFL, then for Tampa. Was traded when Tampa selected Vinny T. #1 overall. Trade was in 1987. 30 years ago. Quote tarkenton was traded too. In 1967. 40 years ago. Was barely a .500 QB in his career. Quote imo it's too simplistic to say a team shouldn't trade for a qb. You've given three examples of good trades of QB's covering 40 years of the NFL and literally hundreds of QB trades and FA QB signings. It certainly seems the odds strongly favor drafting a QB to win, rather than trading for a QB to win. It's pretty clear that the best route to a Franchise QB is to draft the right one, to support that one with a strong roster around him, and to have some patience developing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JiFtheOracle Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: All 3 of those teams would dump those guys for a real franchise QB. Favre was one of the few that were drafted by one team and ended up becoming a HOF QB with another team. And much of that was due to Favre being a headcase in Atlanta forcing them to part ways. My point is not that you can NEVER find a franchise QB via trade/FA it's just very very very rare. Most of the QBs that have success after a trade are normally "game managers" or stud QBs at the end of their careers (Manning/Montana). Very few blossom into stud Franchise QBs only AFTER they are traded which is what teams would hoping for out of a Glennon/Mccarron/Daniel/Garrappolo type signing/trade. The Jets traded for Favre too... I was just being silly with you though. You're 100% right. You have to find your own Qb in this league. Their is an article out there with some data to support it but you basically take a QB in the 1st round and hope you hit or you dont find a QB at all. For a while, I want to say something close to 28 starters were 1st round picks. Now that has changed quite a bit because of full time starters like Dak, Wilson, Cousins, Carr, Taylor, Kaep, Dalton, Osweiler and Brady . But outside of them and sh*tty teams like the Jets and the Browns - you have nothing but 1st rounders starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetster Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 42 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: What? Ryan went before Gholston. Flacco before Keller. Bradford and Tebow both went before Wilson. Like 4 QBs went before Wilkerson, though you are correct, Dalton was still there. So was Kaerpernick. Yippee! Luck and Tannehill were gone well before we picked Coples. It is since they drafted Geno that you have more of a point. Carr and Bridgewater were there and I would hope that they didn't pass them over because of Smith. Your missing my point. I know Matt Ryan was gone but the Jets should have been in position to draft him if they started developing younger players in a lost season. You don't have to tank, look at last year vs the Bills. We played a crapload of youngsters & still won. Luckily it had zero effect on this years draft position. I'm just making a point that none of those players have changed the fortunes of the NY Jets. I'll tell you this, if we do have a shot at Watson & we pass and he becomes a stud, we win 5 games next year, miss out on Darnold & Rosen and they become studs, lol, I seriously have to find something else to do during football seasons. Watching an NFL team without a competent QB is really a waste of time. You have zero chance, it's not entertaining, the future is always bleak, and you might as well be called the Washington Generals. It's flat out depressing. Seeing Petty barely able to take a snap from center, struggle to even throw the ball in the rain at Gillette was so disheartening. 2 years of development? Really? F*cking horrible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 Fair enough, but there was no reason to "start developing younger players in a lost season" in 2009, 2010 and 2011. They made deep playoff runs in '09 and '10 and were in position to make another until Cruz broke them in 2011. That covers the '10, '11 and '12 drafts on your list. They have not been particularly close to #1 overall in quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoJoTownsell1 Posted March 13, 2017 Author Share Posted March 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, Jetster said: Your missing my point. I know Matt Ryan was gone but the Jets should have been in position to draft him if they started developing younger players in a lost season. You don't have to tank, look at last year vs the Bills. We played a crapload of youngsters & still won. Luckily it had zero effect on this years draft position. I'm just making a point that none of those players have changed the fortunes of the NY Jets. I'll tell you this, if we do have a shot at Watson & we pass and he becomes a stud, we win 5 games next year, miss out on Darnold & Rosen and they become studs, lol, I seriously have to find something else to do during football seasons. Watching an NFL team without a competent QB is really a waste of time. You have zero chance, it's not entertaining, the future is always bleak, and you might as well be called the Washington Generals. It's flat out depressing. Seeing Petty barely able to take a snap from center, struggle to even throw the ball in the rain at Gillette was so disheartening. 2 years of development? Really? F*cking horrible! Even though I am not a fan of Watson at 6, I am all for taking him if it means we see a battle between Watson/Petty/Hack heading into next season. Best case scenario, one of them emerges as a franchise QB. Worst case, they all suck and we end up with a top 2 pick and draft next years golden boys. You simply don't bring in a mediocre talent like Daniel/Mccarron to play "decent" enough for us to win 6 games and spend 10 more years without a franchise QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetster Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: Even though I am not a fan of Watson at 6, I am all for taking him if it means we see a battle between Watson/Petty/Hack heading into next season. Best case scenario, one of them emerges as a franchise QB. Worst case, they all suck and we end up with a top 2 pick and draft next years golden boys. You simply don't bring in a mediocre talent like Daniel/Mccarron to play "decent" enough for us to win 6 games and spend 10 more years without a franchise QB. Totally agree! Plus, unlike Sanchez in 2011, whoever plays QB for the Jets in 2017 will have more talent around him than Sanchez did. Decker, Enunwa, Anderson, Forte, Powell, decent Oline, another draft where I'm sure we're taking a TE at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 53 minutes ago, Jetster said: Totally agree! Plus, unlike Sanchez in 2011, whoever plays QB for the Jets in 2017 will have more talent around him than Sanchez did. Decker, Enunwa, Anderson, Forte, Powell, decent Oline, another draft where I'm sure we're taking a TE at some point. Compared to Holmes, Edwards, Cotchery, Jones, Tomlinson, Greene, Keller and the best Oline in football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted March 13, 2017 Share Posted March 13, 2017 4 hours ago, JoJoTownsell1 said: List of Franchise QBs and how their current teams obtained them: Brady- Drafted Big Ben- Drafted Elli- Drafted Rodgers- Drafted Rivers- Drafted Wilson- Drafted Brees- Free Agent (when the Chargers drafted Rivers) Flacco- Drafted Carr- Drafted Luck- Drafted Dak- Drafted Cousins- Drafted Cam- Drafted Ryan- Drafted Stafford- Drafted Winston Drafted So aside from the Brees trade that happened 11 years ago (mainly because they were in position to draft another franchise QB), how many teams trade away future franchise QBs? ZERO. Why is that? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that 99.99pct of Gms/Coaches aren't stupid and if they draft a kid with Franchise QB ability, they don't let them go. What kind of QB can you find in a trade? Alex Smith. Sam Bradford. OK QBs that need elite talent around them to win. This just proves that this team should just keep drafting QBs until they find a franchise QB and give up on trading for or signing someone else's reject/backup. What he said. ^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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