Is getting rid of team cancers > getting comp picks

[Lil Woody]

I get both sides of the argument here, but I lean more towards getting rid of the cancers on this team (Sheldon, Pryor) over holding on to them in the hope that some team signs them to a big deal so that we can get another pick. 

Keeping Sheldon and Pryor means we have to PLAY Sheldon and Pryor if the strategy is to try to secure additional comp picks.  Now that also means one of our Rookies will lose out on reps, or we have to get creative in scheme and play 3 safeties or put someone in the DL rotation out of position. So less reps to go around, PLUS those guys are still here poisoning the lockerroom during a rebuild. That can be pretty damaging.

Is that worth getting another 5th round pick? 

Also, I'm not sure how the comp pick formula works, but I know part of it is the size of the contract. Does anyone really think 2 malcontents who quit on their team (one with a history of personal conduct AND drug suspensions) are going to break the bank in FA?  They probably just get a 1 year prove it deal at like 2M or something.  I don't see that being a huge win for the comp pick formula. But if anyone here knows about the comp pick formula, I'd be interested in learning about it.

Feels like we are more aggravated about the inability to trade them away, coupled with the inability to trade down to secure more picks next year, and are latching onto the hope that these 2 bums are going to offset that for us.

I'd rather just correct the culture, commit to the rebuild and cut these 2 loose if we can't find a trade partner for them in preseason. .

[Bleedin Green]

The bottom line is that there's little reason to assume that even if the Jets do keep these guys around, that they'll ever net a comp pick for them, which wouldn't be until 2019 anyway.  Not only is a matter of being signed by to a new team, but it's also dependent on the Jets not signing any FAs of their own next offseason, as that would offset their signings.  Given the amount of cap space they have coming to them next year and the holes on the roster, even if the team holds true to this concept of rebuilding through the draft and sticking to young guys, it's highly unlikely that they won't at least make some signings next year.  If some people's hopes/dreams come true and the Jets find themselves with a new coach and/or GM next year, then it's even a stronger guarantee that they'll be hitting the FA market.

These reasons combined are probably why the best case scenario for the Jets is to keep on shopping these guys throughout the offseason, and take just about any offer that comes their way.  With that said, it also depends on their true opinions of these two are.  Sheldon is obviously well documented, and while I know there's been instances of Pryor saying some stupid crap, I don't know if he's ever been considered a locker room problem as much as just a poor player who's not a fit.  If it's simply the latter, it's very possible the Jets are fine with keeping him around to at least have one veteran presence at the safety position while the rookies learn, especially if the Jets get little-to-no offers for him, which is likely the case.

[j4jets]

Since when did Pryor and Sheldon became cancers? 

[#27TheDominator]

I know everybody hates him, but what makes Pryor a cancer?  

[varjet]

If they cut them they owe them money.  If someone trades for them, they get cap relief.  

The team is likely better off with the 2 of them than not.  Not in the long term,  but next season, particularly if they are playing for contracts.  How their situation is handled will show how the Jets view the season.

Personally I think the Jets are adrift.   They tell themselves they will keep them unless they receive a compelling offer   A compelling offer will never come   The Jets only move players for compelling offers.  That is why we get stuck with players.   Mac needs to understand the market.   This is his, and Woodys, biggest fault   

 

[slats]

Trading both players made sense, but they weren't traded. They both have guaranteed salaries, so now cutting them makes no sense. At worst, they're the number one backup at their respective positions. 

[Powpow]

5 minutes ago, slats said:

Trading both players made sense, but they weren't traded. They both have guaranteed salaries, so now cutting them makes no sense. At worst, they're the number one backup at their respective positions. 

See Geno. See Geno wave goodbye. See Sheldon and Calvin. See Sheldon and Calvin wave goodbye.

[SickJetFan]

I think I have come around on SR.  I use to think it was best to get rid of him but now I think Jets need him more than he needs the Jets

Nobody knows if Wilks will be back to play at a level he played before injury and even if he does it is not like he was perennial pro bowl player.  I like him dont get me wrong and I hope he comes back this year but 20million seems too much for 2018 when you can now keep SR for 8million this year and maybe get him for 15million or less next year and the drop off in play would be minimal.

Yes there is the risks of suspension but you could mitigate that by bringing in another young player on the cheap.

[slats]

44 minutes ago, Powpow said:

See Geno. See Geno wave goodbye. See Sheldon and Calvin. See Sheldon and Calvin wave goodbye.

WTF does Geno have to do with anything in this thread? 

[Beerfish]

The thing in all of this that bothers me a bit in all of this is the Jets have a draft board that they take guys off of and will not draft them due to character and yet we have an obvious character issue with shel rich and they have failed to remove him even when it sounds like some palatable offers have been out there.

[JETSfaninNE]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I know everybody hates him, but what makes Pryor a cancer?  

First question I had after reading OP...

[JoJoTownsell1]

Just now, Beerfish said:

The thing in all of this that bothers me a bit in all of this is the Jets have a draft board that they take guys off of and will not draft them due to character and yet we have an obvious character issue with shel rich and they have failed to remove him even when it sounds like some palatable offers have been out there.

First off, we don't know if those offers were real. 

Second, this front office did not draft Sheldon, they are merely trying to get the most from him (in terms of play on the field and draft picks). Perhaps they think he will have a big year in a contract year and will net us a higher comp pick than what teams were offering. 

[hokiejetfan92]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

I know everybody hates him, but what makes Pryor a cancer?  

The only thing I saw definitely written is that he and Todd Bowles do not get along, and while this is my outside judgment, I think Calvin and Sheldon are your typical immature people in any profession that are relying on talent more than hard work and dedication when it comes to their job... and once you get to the highest level of you're field (the NFL) where everyone is talented, the lack of attention to detail starts to come out.

[Fibonacci]

I don't think they are cancers but both should be traded for whatever we can get in next years draft. Our strategy should be to tank properly for one of the top QB's next year. 

[#27TheDominator]

2 minutes ago, Fibonacci said:

I don't think they are cancers but both should be traded for whatever we can get in next years draft. Our strategy should be to tank properly for one of the top QB's next year. 

Eh.  That is a nice theory, but if that is what they were going to do, the thing to do would have been to trade them during the draft.  They tried and failed.  No reason to move them now. 

[MDL_JET]

38 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

The thing in all of this that bothers me a bit in all of this is the Jets have a draft board that they take guys off of and will not draft them due to character and yet we have an obvious character issue with shel rich and they have failed to remove him even when it sounds like some palatable offers have been out there.

Eh a little different when he's part of the team already with a big contract as opposed to the draft and you have your choice of players. But I'd love to know what the plan is with him. If true, they got an offer from Dallas last year and denied it. Fine, mistake. I can't believe that not one team has made an offer, even if it's a low ball offer. You'd think they take it instead of ending up with nothing. 

All I can think of is that they're praying and hoping they get something decent in return as time goes on by the trade deadline maybe. Or in the mean time, they're sucking it up with one bad seed and hope he turns it around now that a lot of the other guys are gone. 

[thadude]

The biggest cancers are the owner, GM and head coach

[thadude]

2 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

I know everybody hates him, but what makes Pryor a cancer?  

Not a cancer he's just a horrible player who couldn't cover half the posters on This message board. Ditto for David Harris

[#27TheDominator]

1 minute ago, thadude said:

Not a cancer he's just a horrible player who couldn't cover half the posters on This message board. Ditto for David Harris

You say that as if I could be covered.  

[thadude]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

You say that as if I could be covered.  

No I think you could get 7 catches for 70 yards and a td on Pryor

[Lil Woody]

Why does the money matter? It is already accounted for. If we cut them or we don't the money is already theirs. It should not be part of the consideration. The cap is already budgeted and set for the season. Now it's about projecting towards next year.  We know they will not be on the team, so what is the point of keeping them around.  We were told this season is ALL about development.  Why develop players you don't intend to keep?

As to the cancer question....Pryor was part of the contingent that was infighting last year and he also undermined Bowles in the lockerroom if I am remembering it correctly. I don't like Bowles, but you can't have that from a player. Plus he quit on the season as well.  He may not be a "bad guy". But he's also not the type of player you want in your locker room.

[sciond]

8 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

As tho the cancer question....Pryor was part of the contingent that was infighting last year and he also undermined Bowles in the lockerroom if I am remembering it correctly. I don't like Bowles, but you can't have that from a player. Plus he quit on the season as well.  He may not be a "bad guy". But he's also not the type of player you want in your locker room.

How do you know this?

[Lil Woody]

Just now, sciond said:

How do you know this?

From reading.

[sciond]

Just now, Lil Woody said:

From reading.

I have not read anywhere that he was a problem or was a disruptive force. Unless sucking is disruptive.

[ASH1962]

13 minutes ago, thadude said:

The biggest cancers are the owner, GM and head coach

T H A N K

* *U

[slats]

15 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

Why does the money matter? It is already accounted for. If we cut them or we don't the money is already theirs. It should not be part of the consideration. The cap is already budgeted and set for the season. Now it's about projecting towards next year.  We know they will not be on the team, so what is the point of keeping them around.  We were told this season is ALL about development.  Why develop players you don't intend to keep?

As to the cancer question....Pryor was part of the contingent that was infighting last year and he also undermined Bowles in the lockerroom if I am remembering it correctly. I don't like Bowles, but you can't have that from a player. Plus he quit on the season as well.  He may not be a "bad guy". But he's also not the type of player you want in your locker room.

 

We're talking $9.5M in guaranteed salary on a team that already has over $13M in dead money. These guys, at the very least, are quality backups. I see no reason to cut the cord, especially if that $9.5M can potentially buy a comp pick or two down the road. I don't think they're so cancerous that the team needs to throw all that away just for the benefit of not having them on the team this year. 

[Lil Woody]

7 minutes ago, slats said:

We're talking $9.5M in guaranteed salary on a team that already has over $13M in dead money. These guys, at the very least, are quality backups. I see no reason to cut the cord, especially if that $9.5M can potentially buy a comp pick or two down the road. I don't think they're so cancerous that the team needs to throw all that away just for the benefit of not having them on the team this year. 

But all that dead money is gone by next season right?  So who cares if it is 9m or 90M? It's already spent. Keeping them on because they cost a lot seems like broken logic. Almost like we are throwing good money at bad investments.

And why do we want quality backups that we intend to cut? Wouldn't it be better to elevate Middelton?Martin and Johnson/Thomas/Pelon and see if they can be the backups? Again, since winning is not the goal, what is the purpose of getting quality backups with no shelf life beyond this season?  It seems counterproductive. .  

[slats]

2 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

But all that dead money is gone by next season right?  So who cares if it is 9m or 90M? It's already spent. Keeping them on because they cost a lot seems like broken logic. Almost like we are throwing good money at bad investments.

And why do we want quality backups that we intend to cut? Wouldn't it be better to elevate Middelton?Martin and Johnson/Thomas/Pelon and see if they can be the backups? Again, since winning is not the goal, what is the purpose of getting quality backups with no shelf life beyond this season?  It seems counterproductive. .  

 

What is really behind these guys that they're developing? If they cause trouble, you bench them. I'd rather have them chained to the bench this year, let their contracts expire, and have them figure into the comp pick formula for 2018 then just throw them away. Richardson alone could potentially net a 3rd or 4th round comp pick. If Pryor is nothing but a 7th, that's still something. There's also the possibility of trading either player during the season and getting something real back for them. Just throwing away two former first round picks makes no sense. There's still some value to be had for these guys, and they should squeeze every little bit of it out of them. 

[#27TheDominator]

57 minutes ago, thadude said:

No I think you could get 7 catches for 70 yards and a td on Pryor

You underestimate Calvin Pryor, but you underestimate me more.

[Lil Woody]

43 minutes ago, slats said:

What is really behind these guys that they're developing? If they cause trouble, you bench them. I'd rather have them chained to the bench this year, let their contracts expire, and have them figure into the comp pick formula for 2018 then just throw them away. Richardson alone could potentially net a 3rd or 4th round comp pick. If Pryor is nothing but a 7th, that's still something. There's also the possibility of trading either player during the season and getting something real back for them. Just throwing away two former first round picks makes no sense. There's still some value to be had for these guys, and they should squeeze every little bit of it out of them. 

That's the heart of the question.  Is getting "something" in the form of a comp pick and keeping them here and disgruntled better serving us than spending time developing other players who would be part of the efforts towards creating a better culture around this organization?  To me them just being here in the building is a negative value. Is what we stand to potentially gain by keeping them worth the aggravation and loss of potential improvement to other players?

You see value there. I don't think I do.

And if we are going to be active in FA, and wash away the potential to get these comp picks anyway....then what is the point?  We stand to have 63M in cap space. I think we will be doing more than just resigning Quincy Enunwa, David Harris, Marcus Williams, Wesley Johnson and Mo Claiborne back to the fold.  We will more than likely be one of the bigger players. I think you hold onto them through preseason and if there is nothing to be gained. Dump them.

[slats]

22 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

That's the heart of the question.  Is getting "something" in the form of a comp pick and keeping them here and disgruntled better serving us than spending time developing other players who would be part of the efforts towards creating a better culture around this organization?  To me them just being here in the building is a negative value. Is what we stand to potentially gain by keeping them worth the aggravation and loss of potential improvement to other players?

You see value there. I don't think I do.

And if we are going to be active in FA, and wash away the potential to get these comp picks anyway....then what is the point?  We stand to have 63M in cap space. I think we will be doing more than just resigning Quincy Enunwa, David Harris, Marcus Williams, Wesley Johnson and Mo Claiborne back to the fold.  We will more than likely be one of the bigger players. I think you hold onto them through preseason and if there is nothing to be gained. Dump them.

I definitely find value, and fully expect that they do as well. And you completely ignored the possibility of trading one (or both) of them before the trade deadline during the season. A lot of potential value there. 

Getting in the way of developing other players also holds no water. If these guys are completely useless, they can ignore them and sit them on the inactive since list every week - then still get a potential comp pick. But I think you are significantly overstating any negative value these guys bring to the team. And again, who's behind these guys with all the potential that they're gonna be missing out on? It's an empty argument. 

Part of the comp pick formula is the number of free agents lost minus free agents signed. So matter what the scenario next year, the more potential free agents signing elsewhere, the better. Maybe the Jets will be active signing a number of free agents, or maybe they'll drop $30M on a Kirk Cousins. Anything can happen, and planning as if you don't plan to be in the comp pick market is no way to plan. 

[Lil Woody]

1 minute ago, slats said:

I definitely find value, and fully expect that they do as well. And you completely ignored the possibility of trading one (or both) of them before the trade deadline during the season. A lot of potential value there. 

Getting in the way of developing other players also holds no water. If these guys are completely useless, they can ignore them and sit them on the inactive since list every week - then still get a potential comp pick. But I think you are significantly overstating any negative value these guys bring to the team. And again, who's behind these guys with all the potential that they're gonna be missing out on? It's an empty argument. 

Part of the comp pick formula is the number of free agents lost minus free agents signed. So matter what the scenario next year, the more potential free agents signing elsewhere, the better. Maybe the Jets will be active signing a number of free agents, or maybe they'll drop $30M on a Kirk Cousins. Anything can happen, and planning as if you don't plan to be in the comp pick market is no way to plan. 

I like Middleton and I like Anthony Johnson. I would definitely want to see what they can do with additional playing time or practice reps. I don't think that's an empty argument at all.  Guys like Snacks, Devito, Anderson...they exist and they don't get their opportunities with bottlenecks in front of them.

And I think you are really underestimating how having negative attitudes and players who are here just collecting paychecks affects team chemistry. I have seen plenty of environments going through change that were poisoned by a couple of miserable malcontents that were clearly not in the future plans but also deemed "too valuable to cut loose at this time". You have got to cut them out asap because you won't make progress until you do. Now I know this isn't corporate America, but the lesson is still valid. If you want people to buy into what you are doing, you can't have others undermining your efforts.

[slats]

4 minutes ago, Lil Woody said:

I like Middleton and I like Anthony Johnson. I would definitely want to see what they can do with additional playing time or practice reps. I don't think that's an empty argument at all.  Guys like Snacks, Devito, Anderson...they exist and they don't get their opportunities with bottlenecks in front of them.

And I think you are really underestimating how having negative attitudes and players who are here just collecting paychecks affects team chemistry. I have seen plenty of environments going through change that were poisoned by a couple of miserable malcontents that were clearly not in the future plans but also deemed "too valuable to cut loose at this time". You have got to cut them out asap because you won't make progress until you do. Now I know this isn't corporate America, but the lesson is still valid. If you want people to buy into what you are doing, you can't have others undermining your efforts.

I lose interest in these debates, sorry. Jets aren't dumping either salary guaranteed player, so the whole debate is moot, anyway. I'm hoping these guys get out on the field and are playing like they want to get paid, and the team can get some real draft capital for them before the trading deadline. That's the best case scenario. Paying their full salaries, cutting them, and getting nothing in return -in comparison- would be dumb. 

[#27TheDominator]

Cutting these guys now, after not pulling the trigger during the draft, is not only a bad play, it is some spineless sh*t.  They both have new position coaches. See if they work better with the new guys.  Maybe the coaches were the problem.  I know Pepper Johnson outlawed the swim move which seemed borderline insane.  They are already paid, cutting them now saves nothing.  Maybe they will be good and get back comp picks or pull something in a mid-season trade.  Are you that afraid of your delicate little flowers in the locker room?  Coaches need to handle adversity too.  If you want to make an example of somebody or show that no player is bigger than the team, then cutting them later is still the best way to set the tone.