Anderson and Enunwa; Beasts in the Making

[SickJetFan]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Yes,  there are delicate metrics that I am not privvy to.  **** that ******* bullsh*t math.  Any ******* group that announces that we are going to cut Decker if we can't trade him is so ******* stupid that I question that value of any "metric" they develop.  You are worried about potential success at $20M for Enunwa but not 3/$24M $12M guaranteed on Beachum?  They literally threw $10M at Clady.  It doesn't take metrics to see those risks are worse than Enunwa - who by the way they have anointed as their #1 WR.

few comments

I am not worried about anything right now ...you guys are...I just simply asked how often teams are successful and how often teams are not successful doing these things and I was....I was...I was...attacked by a sperm....I am going to need a week of therepy now.

the 20m i just threw out a number to make my point as I have no idea what he should be paid nor do I really care too much. 

Q salary issue was brought on by himself as it was 2/3 years ago? he was suspended for a some domestic dispute and barely made team which allowed team to drop his rookie contract I believe and get him for pay dirt.  So I could see the team point handing over so much money to a player that has already been suspended once, may not have convinced everyone he will continue to get better, or may be the type like Kerley who once paid spending 12 hours with Juggs machine does not become priority any more.

I am not totally convinced Q has solved his dropsy issues either or how he fits when not being the H because I would rather have ASJ or Leggett if he any good get those reps. 

 

[Warfish]

Nothing like overhype and unrealistic expectations.

[thadude]

17 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Yeah, it's not like it doesn't happen all the time (except on the Jets).

It's convenient for you to risk Enunwa's lifetime of financial security, with 2 upcoming years of first year QB starters throwing him the ball, when you aren't actually risking anything like he is.

So when does Enunwa publicly start demanding a trade?  November?

[thadude]

1 hour ago, #27TheDominator said:

Yes,  there are delicate metrics that I am not privvy to.  **** that ******* bullsh*t math.  Any ******* group that announces that we are going to cut Decker if we can't trade him is so ******* stupid that I question that value of any "metric" they develop.  You are worried about potential success at $20M for Enunwa but not 3/$24M $12M guaranteed on Beachum?  They literally threw $10M at Clady.  It doesn't take metrics to see those risks are worse than Enunwa - who by the way they have anointed as their #1 WR.

Hey I'm cutting Eric Decker tomorrow but you can have him today if you give me a 2nd round pick for him

[#27TheDominator]

34 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

few comments

I am not worried about anything right now ...you guys are...I just simply asked how often teams are successful and how often teams are not successful doing these things and I was....I was...I was...attacked by a sperm....I am going to need a week of therepy now.

the 20m i just threw out a number to make my point as I have no idea what he should be paid nor do I really care too much. 

Q salary issue was brought on by himself as it was 2/3 years ago? he was suspended for a some domestic dispute and barely made team which allowed team to drop his rookie contract I believe and get him for pay dirt.  So I could see the team point handing over so much money to a player that has already been suspended once, may not have convinced everyone he will continue to get better, or may be the type like Kerley who once paid spending 12 hours with Juggs machine does not become priority any more.

I am not totally convinced Q has solved his dropsy issues either or how he fits when not being the H because I would rather have ASJ or Leggett if he any good get those reps. 

 

If you don't like the player or value, fine.  Not sure why anybody would be higher on ASJ.  Guy was a high pick, given every opportunity and has not put up the production of Enunwa.  

His salary issue was brought on by being a 6th round pick.  Yes, he was cut and resigned in December 2014, but the difference in salary was negligible.  Late 6th slotted for $2.3M over 4.  In December 2014 he signed for $1.9M for 3 after a year on the practice squad.  Basically the same deal.  No great loss.  His suspension came the following year, he didn't get on the field because he was raw.  Didn't know you just threw out the $20M number since I have been saying 4/$20M throughout this thread as where I would be comfortable starting (maybe half guaranteed).  

I understand not wanting to redo guys before you lost control over them, but IMO that control can be used to get team friendly deals.  As Sperm mentioned with Antonio Brown among others.  The player has an incentive to sign. The RFA tender is nice to have over somebody's head, but when you get to that year you are looking at a Harrison situation - guy is already making some money and probably more willing to risk waiting.  Look at how Harrison and Wilkerson's deals skyrocketed.  Look at the money Fitzpatrick got.  Look at what they gave Winters.  All poor planning on their part.  If that was the result of metrics, those metrics blow.

[SickJetFan]

12 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

If you don't like the player or value, fine.  Not sure why anybody would be higher on ASJ.  Guy was a high pick, given every opportunity and has not put up the production of Enunwa.  

His salary issue was brought on by being a 6th round pick.  Yes, he was cut and resigned in December 2014, but the difference in salary was negligible.  Late 6th slotted for $2.3M over 4.  In December 2014 he signed for $1.9M for 3 after a year on the practice squad.  Basically the same deal.  No great loss.  His suspension came the following year, he didn't get on the field because he was raw.  Didn't know you just threw out the $20M number since I have been saying 4/$20M throughout this thread as where I would be comfortable starting (maybe half guaranteed).  

I understand not wanting to redo guys before you lost control over them, but IMO that control can be used to get team friendly deals.  As Sperm mentioned with Antonio Brown among others.  The player has an incentive to sign. The RFA tender is nice to have over somebody's head, but when you get to that year you are looking at a Harrison situation - guy is already making some money and probably more willing to risk waiting.  Look at how Harrison and Wilkerson's deals skyrocketed.  Look at the money Fitzpatrick got.  Look at what they gave Winters.  All poor planning on their part.  If that was the result of metrics, those metrics blow.

I am not higher on ASJ per se but rather think it is time for Jets to use the TE.  Q has been decent in that role but he is undersized.  People around here like to make fun about midget ILBs but what about a midget TE (defacto).  IMO jets run game and short passing will improve with more use of someone who is 6'5 260+ lbs vs a 6'2 220+lbs WR\TE....I am not a fan of Midget TEs.  They are also on record as saying they want to utilize a FB which also cuts into Q future reps.

I like Q though and a WR who can block like he does is a real asset in slot but at 6'2 will he be good on outside?  I hope so.  He has to prove he can go up and get the ball like Anderson does or Marshal did.

and yes Sperm gave examples of success but did not want to discuss when something like this did not work out so well which is fine.  My underlying point was sometimes it is easier said than done given these are 20something year old kids who at that age feel invincible (I know I did) and most probably have no issue believing in themselves and feel that they won't get hurt.  It is not a reach to say a majority will gamble. These are not rational accountant types and sometimes not fully mature we are talking about here who will always take the convservative right thing to do approach.  add to the an agent whisper in the ear who also are young confident and have many other clients and want to maximize returns.  Their approach to clients by design is $ first.

[#27TheDominator]

I am pretty sure that the plan was for Decker to play in the slot while Q played outside. Enunwa did run out of the slot more than outside last season, but he was actually more successful outside. CAN QUINCY ENUNWA DEVELOP INTO AN OUTSIDE WEAPON?

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, SickJetFan said:

and yes Sperm gave examples of success but did not want to discuss when something like this did not work out so well which is fine.  

We'd have to primarily focus on players who weren't already established 1st round pick stars (AJ Green, Julio Jones, etc.), as they have obvious leverage that lesser players (like Enunwa) simply don't have. Also, remove players that they let go to FA to sign with with other teams, since it's hard to say which ones the team simply let go for their own reasons.

Active WRs extended before they reached free agency:

• Jordy Nelson (already mentioned earlier; extended with 1.5 yrs left on his rookie contract)
• Rob Gronkowski (already mentioned earlier; extended with 2 yrs left on his rookie contract)
• Antonio Brown (already mentioned earlier; extended at first possible eligibility after 3 seasons)
• Allen Hurns. UDFA in 2014. Was due to become a RFA in 2017; extended in June of 2016. Of note, in his 2nd NFL season Hurns was coming off a 1000-yd, 10-TD season in 14 starts in 2015, so he had more leverage than Enunwa has today.
• T.Y. Hilton. Drafted in 2012. Due to become a RFA in 2016. Indy renegotiated/extended him in 2015. Had far more leverage than Enunwa.
• Doug Baldwin drafted in 2011. Was an tagged as an RFA in 2014 (still a year away from becoming a UFA). Three weeks after getting tagged he was signed to a 3-year extension through 2017. Then once again, before playing out his final contract year, Seattle extended him in June of 2016.
• Adam Thielan. 2nd round RFA tagged in 2017. 11 days later he signed 4 year $20m extension before playing out the year.
• Julio Jones. About to play under 5th year option (a 1st round pick's equivalent of an RFA tag), and signed a 5 year extension before the season began.
• Tavon Austin.  About to play under 5th year option, and signed a 4 year extension before the season.
• Larry Fitzgerald. Was a while back, but rookie contract was set to expire in 2009. Signed 4 yr extension in 2008 with 2 years left on his rookie deal.

Active WRs franchise tagged before signing extension: (I can't remember anyone surrendering 2 first rounders for a franchise-tagged WR since Joey Galloway).

• Demaryius Thomas (signed extension while under the tag, before that last season began)
• Dez Bryant (signed extension while under the tag, before that last season began)
• DeSean Jackson (signed extension while under the tag, before that last season began)

Still up in the air:

• Mike Evans (currently playing under his 4th year. TB has already exercised his 5th year option for 2018. Has far more leverage than Enunwa).

Went the other way, and were retained by their original team after testing the FA waters, or after playing their last game under team control, like we did with Winters: (this list is extremely short)

• Randall Cobb (but he missed most of his 3rd season, so his value was at its lowest, after a 1263 yd / 15 TD season the prior year. He was also only 1 year away from becoming a UFA where Enunwa is 2 years away. Also his QB was Aaron Rodgers. So, for those 3 reasons, he had far less incentive than Enunwa to sign an extension early. 

 

I'm starting to sense a pattern here.

Basically name any WR worth a damn and there seems to be more than a 90% chance that the player was either extended while still under team control, or the team outright lost him to free agency for any number of reasons (not the least of which being the team was already significantly invested in one or more other WRs, and didn't need the WR they lost). The only exception I found had a special circumstance (namely, he missed 75% of the prior season and had Aaron Rodgers throwing him the ball in a contract year).

But we should ignore history that shows teams retaining their drafted WRs typically do so only after outbidding everyone else in free agency, even though it flies in the face of history, because this is how BIG MACC!!! operates.

[Sperm Edwards]

So let's see the "proof" that retained WRs are usually extended after the team no longer controls their future. You suggested it was 25%, when it appears it's not even 10%, and even that requires special circumstances that don't exist with Enunwa. 

[SickJetFan]

48 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

So let's see the "proof" that retained WRs are usually extended after the team no longer controls their future. You suggested it was 25%, when it appears it's not even 10%, and even that requires special circumstances that don't exist with Enunwa. 

LOL i was not trying to suggest it was 25% nor was I trying to suggest $20M contract either.  I was merely trying to use some numbers to explain my point since if you clearly read the above I said I did not know and that was my question and getting back to my point which you still dont want to even acknowledge so I am having hard time bothering with yours............

 

[#27TheDominator]

20 minutes ago, SickJetFan said:

LOL i was not trying to suggest it was 25% nor was I trying to suggest $20M contract either.  I was merely trying to use some numbers to explain my point since if you clearly read the above I said I did not know and that was my question and getting back to my point which you still dont want to even acknowledge so I am having hard time bothering with yours............

You want us to do the research and then when we do your response is you're not going to bother?  That is flat out bullsh*t.

[SickJetFan]

Just now, #27TheDominator said:

You want us to do the research and then when we do your response is you're not going to bother.  That is flat out bullsh*t.

wtf u talking about - i didnt ask anyone to do any fkg research.

feel like I am taking crazy pills on this site sometimes.....go back and look at my original post - i brought up the 20something argument and then you guys kept asking me to explain or you were sooo incredulious that someone would Q ur vast intellect..GMFB.

Sperm has his Macc agenda for sure - but I was not thinking about Macc at all as much as he wants to believe....one track mind that one.

 

but hey you want me to get the research that is actually very easy...

tell you what...you just take the HUGE list of FA that appear every year from every fkg team and look at all the young players that switch teams. That a pretty fkg big list esp if you did it say over last 5 years.  So in your guys simplistic world every GM should lock down their own for short money and every team is doing this except the poor inept Jets.  IF that was the case there would be no FA switching team on a yearly basis but we all know that is not true so I am not wasting my time.

[#27TheDominator]

What is the percentage of time that you aren't wasting?

[SickJetFan]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

What is the percentage of time that you aren't wasting?

100

[Sperm Edwards]

15 hours ago, #27TheDominator said:

You want us to do the research and then when we do your response is you're not going to bother?  That is flat out bullsh*t.

It's a de facto admission he has been lashing out because he's too invested in his belief system that if Mike Maccagnan is doing (or not doing) something it is, by definition, the correct thing.

Because a stupid NFL team owner hired him as the GM, after a career as a scout, it automatically means said GM is all-wise and knows what he's doing in the handling of veteran players and all affairs of championship team building.

Therefore if Maccagnan didn't extend a single player in 3 out of 3 years before the rookie contract is expired, then it means it could have not be done, and he has to make up nonsensical reasons to rationalize these myopic end results.

Medieval religious zealots were more open to reason.

[jason423]

On 6/21/2017 at 4:57 PM, #27TheDominator said:

I have been beating the drum to extend Enunwa for quite a bit.  I would love to hear what @jason423 thinks of his current value.  There is an article out there by Tyler Calvaruso who I have never heard of, but is apparently jetswire.com which has an affiliation with usatoday.  He compares Enunwa's value to Woods, Stills and Wheaton at $5.5M to $8M per. With Eric Decker gone, what would a Quincy Enunwa extension look like?  I like Enunwa and if he is as hard a worker as he seems this would be a no brainer.  OTOH, he has one career 100 yard game and 4 TDs.  Sure Stills got 4/$32M, but he had 9 TDs last year alone.

Based on where he is at right now and considering the RFA status Id say his true market is between $5 and $6M. Somewhere above Rishard Matthews and below Travis Benjamin. Maybe like a Markus Wheaton. He only has one decent year so obviously that value can fluctuate.  Right now Id expect him to be a 2nd round tender candidate and then they would extend after that. 

[Dunnie]

Robby Anderson ... The Machinist


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Warfish]

Had to stop by again and lol at this thread.  

Lol.

[jgb]

Had to stop by again and lol at this thread.   Lol.

 

 

Enunwa has promise and the tools to develop into something. Unfortunately for him, he is in the worst place to do so. Anderson is a nice story but just a JAG with an extreme upside of Kerley in a perfect situation, which, again, the Jets are not.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

[detectivekimble]

On June 21, 2017 at 5:47 PM, stoicsentry said:

Enunwa and Anderson are the types of roleplayers that every good team has but you don't hear about them, because there are much more impactful players on the roster.

I'd call Enunwa a weapon.  We've seen the guy outrun an entire defense (Ravens) on one play and destroy Kam Chancellor on another.  Not many teams have a guy with his kind of physical ability.

[Tony MaC]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

 

Enunwa has promise and the tools to develop into something. Unfortunately for him, he is in the worst place to do so. Anderson is a nice story but just a JAG with an extreme upside of Kerley in a perfect situation, which, again, the Jets are not.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

Upside of Kerely?

That's not a good comparison, he plays very differently from JK. Based on last year's output he's more of an X receiver than a Y or Z. He's an outside receiver with the ability to blow the top off a defense every so often and make big time catches- in other words the team's deep threat. Kerely was and is not one of those.

His upside is more comparable to other deep threat receivers, the question for now is if he can replicate last year's flashes and at least double his production in a new offense.

 

 

[jgb]

Upside of Kerely?
That's not a good comparison, he plays very differently from JK. Based on last year's output he's more of an X receiver than a Y or Z. He's an outside receiver with the ability to blow the top off a defense every so often and make big time catches- in other words the team's deep threat. Kerely was and is not one of those.
His upside is more comparable to other deep threat receivers, the question for now is if he can replicate last year's flashes and at least double his production in a new offense.
 
 

Cool that makes sense thanks. I was being lazy and I met in terms of his eventual value but appreciate your much more astute points


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[jetscrazey]

If Anderson can stay out of jail I'm all for his ability.  Enunwa has good ability too.  I would have liked to try to keep Decker for another couple of years as a potential influence on the coming new franchise QB.  In 2018 they'll need a veteran free agent WR signing to work with the new guy and teach good habits.

[kmnj]

we have maybe the worst starting wr  core in the league and pair that with probably the worst qb starting as well...

jet fans like to hype up avg talent into something they are not-our "top two guys" would not see the field on most teams