Reflection

[carlito1171]

21 hours ago, Icer said:

I kinda feel like the Jets died with that 99 yard Victor Cruz touchdown

Ouch! What a stinger....but you may be onto something here

[Sperm Edwards]

28 minutes ago, bitonti said:

according to Forbes the Johnsons are the 30th richest owners ahead of Bob kraft and the city of green Bay Wisconsin 

They are worth about 5 billion 

The Jets are the 6th most valuable franchise in the league, with an estimated value of 4 billion. Again, according to Forbes 

It's not that the Jets are cheap but they are cash poor compared to other owners. Their main income is the team. Their most valuable asset is also the team.

If the Johnsons were trying to buy the team in 2021 they would not be approved first lack of capital. 

They play a dance with cutting and trading players to get to the cap floor not to get below the ceiling 

If we go year by year they have not spent near the cap since the Rex Era, also the last time they were competitive.

Examples? Last year the team was forced to fly from west coast back rather than rent a resort. They hire Gase over buying Rhule out of baylor. They hire first time hc and first time gm. They have not given a homegrown player a new deal of any size since quincy enunwa. They end up 80 million under a 180 million cap. 

All of this is to say they find ways to get to the floor and still skim cream off the top. Meanwhile Bob kraft empties his similarly sized pockets every year he can to try to win. Other teams go over the cap and restructure (pay) to get back under 

Back in the west side days they were not cheap. That was like a decade ago. Lately they do just enough to keep the lights on 

 

Meh, you've tried the cash poor angle for years. It isn't true, and he had to do a financial disclosure to be ambassador. Never mind that such disclosures don't include whatever else he - like many/most in that echelon - probably has hidden & squirreled away in secret.

Go take a look at the disclosure, or at least a quick summary of it (e.g. here). He's swimming in money independent of owning the Jets, and even if he wasn't - ridiculous as that idea is - any/every financial institution would fork over a billion dollars to him with him putting up part of the team as collateral. 

I don't even like the guy but you make people sympathetic with these wacky ideas, like all he's got is the Jets and other than that he's a relative pauper. It's amazing you actually believe this still to this day.

He is not cash poor. The Jets are about 60% of his net worth, not anywhere near 100%, and again that's just counting what he disclosed.

Here: 

Based on the midpoint of value ranges indicated for each asset, Johnson probably has more than $1.7 billion in assets unrelated to his ownership of the Jets and about $233 million in liabilities. He also lists more than $50 million in shares of New Brunswick, New Jersey-based J&J, the health-care products company co-founded by his great-grandfather. Based on listed dividend income from the past 12 months of "over $5 million," Johnson would have at least 1.56 million shares in the company. That holding is worth more than $205 million at Monday’s closing price.

This is also, by the way, from early/mid 2017. The stock market is up 50% since then. So being conservative he's sitting on $2bn unrelated to the NYJ. 

Plus what do you think, every other owner keeps billions of dollars in cash, in a sub-1% interest bearing checking account at Capital One? 

[kdels62]

33 minutes ago, bitonti said:

according to Forbes the Johnsons are the 30th richest owners ahead of Bob kraft and the city of green Bay Wisconsin 

They are worth about 5 billion 

The Jets are the 6th most valuable franchise in the league, with an estimated value of 4 billion. Again, according to Forbes 

It's not that the Jets are cheap but they are cash poor compared to other owners. Their main income is the team. Their most valuable asset is also the team.

If the Johnsons were trying to buy the team in 2021 they would not be approved first lack of capital. 

They play a dance with cutting and trading players to get to the cap floor not to get below the ceiling 

If we go year by year they have not spent near the cap since the Rex Era, also the last time they were competitive.

Examples? Last year the team was forced to fly from west coast back rather than rent a resort. They hire Gase over buying Rhule out of baylor. They hire first time hc and first time gm. They have not given a homegrown player a new deal of any size since quincy enunwa. They end up 80 million under a 180 million cap. 

All of this is to say they find ways to get to the floor and still skim cream off the top. Meanwhile Bob kraft empties his similarly sized pockets every year he can to try to win. Other teams go over the cap and restructure (pay) to get back under 

Back in the west side days they were not cheap. That was like a decade ago. Lately they do just enough to keep the lights on 

 

They filed out the second highest amount of guaranteed deals going into 2015 and again going into 2019. That’s all cash expenditure. Who deserved money since Quincy Enunwa? Jamal Adams? The Covid rules mandated that team couldn’t stay away from their home facilities on a week to week basis. That’s why they flew back. If they wanted to stay away they’d need approval from the Players association and the NFL, plus they’d need to pick a place between Washington and LA that would allow them to practice, all that area had intense Covid regulations. Considering the Jets had like 3 total Covid cases all year, I’d argue that the Jets ran their operation extremely well. The ownership is paying Bowles, McCagnan, Gase, JD and Saleh right now. 

Woody and Chris Johnson don’t skip out on writing checks. They gave out cash rich contracts this season, guaranteeing money and front loading contracts. They’re funding a new health and training program after a pandemic hurt season. The owners failed to create a good management team beneath them, and the team sucked as a result. Making all of that about cash spending is just an assumption with no evidence.

[carlito1171]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Plus what do you think, every other owner keeps billions of dollars in cash, in a sub-1% interest bearing checking account at Capital One? 

LMFAO 

[bitonti]

Just now, SAR I said:

The Jets are #2 in attendance in the entire NFL, #1 in the AFC, and have been at or near that lofty position since MetLife opened a decade ago.  The value of the franchise has grown from the $400M Woody paid in 2000 to $3.6B.  They play in the largest city in the United States and have more fans, paying and otherwise, than teams like the Patriots, Broncos, Ravens, and Chiefs. 

This theory that the Johnsons are cash poor is ridiculous.  Sure, they may have less money than other owners, but it doesn't mean they are struggling or are holding the Jets back in any way.  The Johnsons are guilty of making bad hires, nothing more.  Hopefully they got it right this time with Douglas and Saleh.

SAR I

It's hard to imagine someone who is a billionaire worried about income streams but this is the story of English nobility 

while money makes money, hard as it is to imagine, wealth doesn't last forever

3, 4 generations tops before it plateaus. Woody's purchase of the Jets was the smartest move he ever made or ever will make. They will never sell this team because, as you point out, it prints money, even when the team is awful

which is all the time

but take a 10000 foot view they are not Paul Allen, (RIP) cofounder of Microsoft and owner of Seahawks/Trailblazers/Sounders FC

They are not Shahid Khan (Jaguars/Fulham FC/Wrestling) putting bumpers on every new car in America.

The Johnsons are rich af by almost every human standard but the other owners have, like, oil fields to fall back on

This time a month ago people were talking about Thuney/Linsley/Arob they ended up with Corey/Carl and a grab bag.

They make bad hires yes but they also underfund the team compared to most of the league. JD last two offseasons has had cash constraints compared to teams like KC and NEP. we could say they just have no one to pay or that's the marketplace but they've somehow found a way to make it to 2021 NFL without a 20 million per year player. It's not just FQB. Pass rushers and top linemen make over 20. Teams are out there paying 30 (watson) and 40 (mahomes) for FQB in the future years

the Jets are going to run with 4.97 million dollar Sam Darnold because they are not really committed to winning at all costs. This is not a hobby for them it's their life blood. 

[bitonti]

5 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

They filed out the second highest amount of guaranteed deals going into 2015 and again going into 2019. That’s all cash expenditure. 

without looking it up i'm sure those were year 4 of the CBA type situations where they had to splash money to get up to the floor

that's a completely true stat it's also different from spending to the cap

i did not know that about the team needing permission yet the Niners got permission to stay in WV when they played the Jets and Giants. Did the jets even ask for permission? 

it is what it is 

The last time they were close to the cap was the last time they made the playoffs 

 

[Edgy]

23 minutes ago, rangerous said:

historically the jets have not been cheap.  my point is that after laying out all that green for met life and atlantic health maybe he started to look at the money more carefully.  and then who knows how much control he maintained once he went overseas for the past 4 years.

Totally get it.  It may in fact be that he got a splash of water in the face having to pay for Met Life.  But is suspect his accountants tell him the cash outlay for 1/2 ownership in metlife was more than made up for in the corresponding value of the team if he wanted to sell.   

I just think the evidence of rolling out big guaranteed contracts with signing bonuses, the non-roster spending, and evidence other than how did the GM structure contracts doesn't back up the cheap bit.

Woody is a member of the lucky sperm club who never has to worry about anything in his life, the bastard.

But I'm sure he wants to win.  It's not his thriftiness that's the problem, it's his hiring and management judgement.

[MR.GANGGREEN28]

21 hours ago, SAR I said:

People I trust say that the 2022 draft is going to be awful for quarterbacks.  So if the Jets pass on a blue chipper this year and we need one next year, they aren't there.  We'd have to get an old free agent or someone struggling elsewhere.

This is why the move is to take Wilson or Fields and keep Darnold.  You can trade one of them next year.  

SAR I

I don't love this take because the guy we very well may draft this year was nowhere close to a top 5 prospect before his breakout 2020 season, same could be said for Joe Burrow the year before. However if JD/RS think ZW is a can't miss talent and that there very likely won't be another guy of his caliber in next year's draft, go for it.

[kdels62]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

without looking it up i'm sure those were year 4 of the CBA type situations where they had to splash money to get up to the floor

that's a completely true stat it's also different from spending to the cap

i did not know that about the team needing permission yet the Niners got permission to stay in WV when they played the Jets and Giants. Did the jets even ask for permission? 

it is what it is 

The last time they were close to the cap was the last time they made the playoffs 

 

The problem is that those big spending years coincide with GMs being desperate to succeed. If those GMs were any good before the big expenditure year then they wouldn’t have to spend like they do in an attempt to win public favor.

JD just gave out a lot of cash and the Jets are within $20 million of the cap. They also have no one to pay next year because the last GM was terrible. Next year is gonna be another year with a lot of cap space and no one of real value to re-sign, and that’s because of roster mismanagement not cheapness.

[rangerous]

39 minutes ago, Edgy said:

Totally get it.  It may in fact be that he got a splash of water in the face having to pay for Met Life.  But is suspect his accountants tell him the cash outlay for 1/2 ownership in metlife was more than made up for in the corresponding value of the team if he wanted to sell.   

I just think the evidence of rolling out big guaranteed contracts with signing bonuses, the non-roster spending, and evidence other than how did the GM structure contracts doesn't back up the cheap bit.

Woody is a member of the lucky sperm club who never has to worry about anything in his life, the bastard.

But I'm sure he wants to win.  It's not his thriftiness that's the problem, it's his hiring and management judgement.

i was certainly for having the stadium on the west side.  that would've been a great boon for the city.

[bitonti]

34 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

The problem is that those big spending years coincide with GMs being desperate to succeed. If those GMs were any good before the big expenditure year then they wouldn’t have to spend like they do in an attempt to win public favor.

JD just gave out a lot of cash and the Jets are within $20 million of the cap. They also have no one to pay next year because the last GM was terrible. Next year is gonna be another year with a lot of cap space and no one of real value to re-sign, and that’s because of roster mismanagement not cheapness.

prediction: they are going to june 1st guys like Crowder, Alex Lewis and maybe even Fant, trade CJ Mosely, maybe Darnold around the draft and have like 40 mil in space again

the Jets use cap space on the dead hit from trades that's not the same as roster spend. That 5 mil dead cap hits when Darnold trades makes it look like they are closer to the cap then they actually are . trading Darnold is not the same as spending 5 million dollars on talent but for cap purposes it somehow accelerates and counts as yearly spend.

i disagree about no one of real value to sign - they thought Maye was a franchise caliber player and yet made no effort to sign him, they let guys like Jason Myers, Demario Davis, Andre Roberts walk, there aren't NO guys they just don't prioritize keeping the good ones. 

will they keep QW? Becton? I can't wait for people saying how they are overrated somehow 

 

[kdels62]

Just now, bitonti said:

prediction: they are going to june 1st guys like Crowder, Alex Lewis and maybe even Fant, trade CJ Mosely, maybe Darnold around the draft and have like 40 mil in space again

the Jets use cap space on the dead hit from trades that's not the same as roster spend. That 5 mil dead cap hits when Darnold trades makes it look like they are closer to the cap then they actually are 

i don't disagree about no one of real value to sign but they thought Maye was a franchise caliber player and yet made no effort to sign him, they let guys like Jason Myers, Demario Davis, Andre Roberts walk, there aren't NO guys they just don't prioritize keeping the good ones. 

 

Well cap expenditure isn’t a standard. The standard is around cash expenditure and the Jets will have that covered with dead caps hits. Are you saying the Jets would rather have dead cap than spend cap space on players that contribute to winning? Demario Davis was replaced with the more expensive and younger Avery Williamson and the other 2 guys were Special Teamers. Myers was one in a series of kickers the Jets kept for 1 year who played well and then they replaced. Their luck dried out but it was what they were doing for years at that point .

[bitonti]

45 minutes ago, Edgy said:

Totally get it.  It may in fact be that he got a splash of water in the face having to pay for Met Life.  But is suspect his accountants tell him the cash outlay for 1/2 ownership in metlife was more than made up for in the corresponding value of the team if he wanted to sell.   

 

both the Jets and the Giants overpaid for the steel on metlife, they bought at like 06 prices before the 08 crash. They've been writing off the debt on the steel ever since. 

What people don't understand about high end wealth could fill several of max's servers. I only know because I worked around it on Wall St for like a decade. The mistake of taking the steel debt becomes an asset when accountants can hide other expenses and profits behind the 15 year old loss of the expensive steel 

Billionaires can be cheap. guys like Warren Buffett have a box full of buttons somewhere in case one falls off. The Johnsons are not cheap in that sense. They spend on themselves. They just don't prioritize winning. 

and why should they, honestly? it's not like the Jets get paid by the win. 

 

[bitonti]

8 minutes ago, kdels62 said:

 Are you saying the Jets would rather have dead cap than spend cap space on players that contribute to winning?  

no what I'm saying is they would rather have dead cap from trades than cut live checks 

prior to this free agency period the thinking here was that the Jets were one of the few teams with the cap space to sign all the stars that would hit 

the cap goes up every single year

the cap never goes down

there is no such thing as cap hell 

yet the Jets always have like eight figures lying around for a rainy day. They trade their stars (or cut their mistakes) to avoid paying them weekly game checks or give new deals and guys like Bell, Trumaine Johnson, Quincy and Jamal Adams get listed as significant cap usage when they aren't actually playing here anymore, contributing at all 

it's the endless rebuild

maybe the Jets would rather draft a new player than pay the existing one and it's been this way for a very long time. We could say all the existing players sucked but ask JD himself about Robby Anderson. They let a top 5 in yardage WR go, a guy who got 1000 yards every year with Sam and "replaced" him with Mims and 1 year deal Perriman 

 

[SAR I]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

It's hard to imagine someone who is a billionaire worried about income streams but this is the story of English nobility 

while money makes money, hard as it is to imagine, wealth doesn't last forever

3, 4 generations tops before it plateaus. Woody's purchase of the Jets was the smartest move he ever made or ever will make. They will never sell this team because, as you point out, it prints money, even when the team is awful

which is all the time

but take a 10000 foot view they are not Paul Allen, (RIP) cofounder of Microsoft and owner of Seahawks/Trailblazers/Sounders FC

They are not Shahid Khan (Jaguars/Fulham FC/Wrestling) putting bumpers on every new car in America.

The Johnsons are rich af by almost every human standard but the other owners have, like, oil fields to fall back on

This time a month ago people were talking about Thuney/Linsley/Arob they ended up with Corey/Carl and a grab bag.

They make bad hires yes but they also underfund the team compared to most of the league. JD last two offseasons has had cash constraints compared to teams like KC and NEP. we could say they just have no one to pay or that's the marketplace but they've somehow found a way to make it to 2021 NFL without a 20 million per year player. It's not just FQB. Pass rushers and top linemen make over 20. Teams are out there paying 30 (watson) and 40 (mahomes) for FQB in the future years

the Jets are going to run with 4.97 million dollar Sam Darnold because they are not really committed to winning at all costs. This is not a hobby for them it's their life blood. 

Stop.  We have problems, for sure, but Johnson cashflow isn't one of them.

SAR I

[bitonti]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Meh, you've tried the cash poor angle for years. It isn't true, and he had to do a financial disclosure to be ambassador. Never mind that such disclosures don't include whatever else he - like many/most in that echelon - probably has hidden & squirreled away in secret.

Go take a look at the disclosure, or at least a quick summary of it (e.g. here). He's swimming in money independent of owning the Jets, and even if he wasn't - ridiculous as that idea is - any/every financial institution would fork over a billion dollars to him with him putting up part of the team as collateral. 

I don't even like the guy but you make people sympathetic with these wacky ideas, like all he's got is the Jets and other than that he's a relative pauper. It's amazing you actually believe this still to this day.

He is not cash poor. The Jets are about 60% of his net worth, not anywhere near 100%, and again that's just counting what he disclosed.

Here: 

Based on the midpoint of value ranges indicated for each asset, Johnson probably has more than $1.7 billion in assets unrelated to his ownership of the Jets and about $233 million in liabilities. He also lists more than $50 million in shares of New Brunswick, New Jersey-based J&J, the health-care products company co-founded by his great-grandfather. Based on listed dividend income from the past 12 months of "over $5 million," Johnson would have at least 1.56 million shares in the company. That holding is worth more than $205 million at Monday’s closing price.

This is also, by the way, from early/mid 2017. The stock market is up 50% since then. So being conservative he's sitting on $2bn unrelated to the NYJ. 

Plus what do you think, every other owner keeps billions of dollars in cash, in a sub-1% interest bearing checking account at Capital One? 

5 million dollars in stock dividend income is a rounding error for a 6 billion dollar empire. The 100 mil or whatever it is they clear from the TV contracts annually is what keeps the heart pumping. 

He's certainly not poor. There's probably hundreds of millions in real estate etc. 

The problem is that (as your post admits) his best business is the Jets. 

Other owners treat it as a hobby. They want to win. I'm not convinced woody even cares 

Shoot. If you owned a team, would you loan it to your brother and Ieave for 4 years? 

I believe that Woody cared way more during the Curtis Martin Era. That was a long time ago 

[bitonti]

35 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Stop.  We have problems, for sure, but Johnson cashflow isn't one of them.

SAR I

The last time the Jets spent to the cap was the last time they made it to the playoffs 

Maybe it's not cash flow. Maybe they just don't care about the results 

[SAR I]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The last time the Jets spent to the cap was the last time they made it to the playoffs 

Maybe it's not cash flow. Maybe they just don't care about the results 

Well, that amount of spending also led to an immediate crash and burn when all the free agents aged out or were released, weren't replaced by suitable draft picks, and now has us with one of the worst rosters in the entire league.  The Tannenbaum era produced some unexpected and unlikely playoff runs but a) we didn't have a franchise quarterback so we didn't get to the Super Bowl and b) we are paying the price for that reckless spending this very day.

Cap flexibility is important.  When we're a win-now team we can add a few pieces to push us over the top.  Not a conversation we need to have right now.

We've got a very expensive stadium, a world-class training facility, at least 3 head coaches and 2 general managers on the payroll who aren't with the team anymore, and we need to overpay every executive, coach, and player that comes here of their own free will.  PSL's have been abolished and season ticket prices keep going down in price.  The Johnsons are not cheap.

SAR I

[bitonti]

12 minutes ago, SAR I said:

Cap flexibility is important.  When we're a win-now team we can add a few pieces to push us over the top.  Not a conversation we need to have right now.

"CHEAP" is simplifying it

they are not cheap they are pennywise pound foolish and they use the team as a source of income 

they end up paying Gase 3.5, Bowles 2 (the TB DC money comes off the top) rather than hiring a quality 7 or 8 mil HC up front. that's the issue.   

is it because of gross incompetency or some sort of master plan for frugality, the world may never know and we can argue it all day long

the fact it's gotten this bad that we are debating why they are so far under the cap, all the time, pretty much speaks for itself

they are under the cap, again, and have been so for the past decade

why they do it? i don't know. 

until they fund TO THE CAP or even NEAR THE CAP they are not really funding the roster. The Jets play a dance with the floor.  They keep 18 million aside for a rainy day, pocket the difference, except in that year 4 of the CBA when they splash and seem like a regular team. 

most teams fund their roster every year not just once every four years.  

the Cap hell Tannenbaum left this team a decade ago turned into a fairy tale they tell every year, even when the team is 20, 40, 80 million under the cap 

the Saints were like a billion dollars over the cap and they are just fine and dandy. the chiefs are somehow paying everyone. the cap is a lie. 

there is no such thing as cap hell when the cap goes every year and TV revenues keep going up. the difference is that some teams want to do whatever it takes to win and spend to the cap  and others like the Jets, Bengals and WFT are in an annual dance with the floor 

 

[PS17]

23 hours ago, Icer said:

I kinda feel like the Jets died with that 99 yard Victor Cruz touchdown

I thought they died when Ben Roethlisberger hit Antonio Brown on third down. 

[Savage69]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

5 million dollars in stock dividend income is a rounding error for a 6 billion dollar empire. The 100 mil or whatever it is they clear from the TV contracts annually is what keeps the heart pumping. 

He's certainly not poor. There's probably hundreds of millions in real estate etc. 

The problem is that (as your post admits) his best business is the Jets. 

Other owners treat it as a hobby. They want to win. I'm not convinced woody even cares 

Shoot. If you owned a team, would you loan it to your brother and Ieave for 4 years? 

I believe that Woody cared way more during the Curtis Martin Era. That was a long time ago 

Maybe because that was Leon Hess??

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, bitonti said:

5 million dollars in stock dividend income is a rounding error for a 6 billion dollar empire. The 100 mil or whatever it is they clear from the TV contracts annually is what keeps the heart pumping. 

He's certainly not poor. There's probably hundreds of millions in real estate etc. 

The problem is that (as your post admits) his best business is the Jets. 

Other owners treat it as a hobby. They want to win. I'm not convinced woody even cares 

Shoot. If you owned a team, would you loan it to your brother and Ieave for 4 years? 

I believe that Woody cared way more during the Curtis Martin Era. That was a long time ago 

Do you even read?

$5MM in stock dividend is just from his J&J holdings for that one particular year; that's not how much income he had.

Not that he's earned it, but he's holding some $2BN or more independent of anything to do with the Jets. 

Again, you are making people sympathetic to a weenie of a man who inherited an empire of money.

[bitonti]

17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

 

Again, you are making people sympathetic to a weenie of a man who inherited an empire of money.

OK well let me know the next time they approach the cap 

It's been a decade and counting 

[isired]

The Jets are #2 in attendance in the entire NFL, #1 in the AFC, and have been at or near that lofty position since the late-90s

Fixed