The Panthers sure love acquiring the Jets' trash.

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Ive never seen someone spend as much time and energy on an ex Jet as you do with Darnold, to each their own I guess

Maybe if so many other posters didn't exhaust so much energy defending the worst QB in the NFL, I'd stop.  You do realize I didn't start this thread purely to talk about Darnold, don't you?  There were several other ex-Jets on the Panthers that I listed off.  

Also, we own Carolina's 2nd & 4th rounders in 2022.  It serves the Jets' best interests for Darnold to continue to suck for at least one more season.  

[Jackie Treehorn]

On 9/2/2021 at 5:22 PM, Jetsfan80 said:

Have to be willing to change your opinion of players over time when new info arrives, no?  I liked the Morgan pick (you should always take shots on QB's where you can, especially when you're a team in need of a QB) and had hopes of him being our QB2 for the next 3 seasons.  Clearly I was wrong, as we cut him in year 2 and he's on another team.  Thus what else can he be but "trash" at this stage? 

I don't think Carolina will keep him long, as (like others have mentioned) this seemed like a clear move to pump him for info on our offensive scheme.  So he'll be their "trash" too in short order.

Who wouldn’t like to be a fly on the wall when the Panthers are trying to pump him for any sort of comprehensible information. 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

53 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Maybe if so many other posters didn't exhaust so much energy defending the worst QB in the NFL, I'd stop.  You do realize I didn't start this thread purely to talk about Darnold, don't you?  There were several other ex-Jets on the Panthers that I listed off.  

Also, we own Carolina's 2nd & 4th rounders in 2022.  It serves the Jets' best interests for Darnold to continue to suck for at least one more season.  

Just out of curiosity, what is your goal? To convince other posters they are wrong on Darnold, and that he always sucked, sucks, and always will suck, and until every poster on this board agrees with that, you will fight the good fight? When that goal is achieved, do you get to retire a rich man, or do you still have to go to work the next day?

[Jetsfan80]

47 minutes ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

Who wouldn’t like to be a fly on the wall when the Panthers are trying to pump him for any sort of comprehensible information. 

 

Morgan when called to draw up a play on the whiteboard:

 

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Just out of curiosity, what is your goal? To convince other posters they are wrong on Darnold, and that he always sucked, sucks, and always will suck, and until every poster on this board agrees with that, you will fight the good fight? When that goal is achieved, do you get to retire a rich man, or do you still have to go to work the next day?

I will have fulfilled my purpose as a man sent from the future, and will then be able to disappear, fading from existence.  

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

 But as difficult a job it is, excuses just don't fly at that position, because QB's who suck their first 2-3 years tend to go on to suck at other, better destinations in 95+ % of instances.  If a QB is "secretly good", he's going to show it fairly quickly.  It's not going to take 40+ starts to see it.  You don't see the Arizona Cardinals regretting letting go of Josh Rosen after 13 starts, do you?  How about the Browns with DeShone Kizer, the Panthers with Jimmy Clausen, the Raiders with JaMarcus Russell, the Rams with Jared Goff, the the Bucs with Jameis Winston, the Titans with Marcus Mariota, the WFT with Dwayne Haskins, the Jaguars with Blake Bortles, etc etc etc.

 

Either way, all of the numbers are on my side of this one.  Darnold will do better in Carolina, but he's not becoming a top 10 or middle of the pack QB there.  Circumstances can only do so much for QB's who suck at football.  

you say all this, but Nick Foles won a superbowl. He, by your definition, sucked at football. Joe Flacco - has largely not been good, but had moments of greatness coached out of him.

I think you're mostly wrong haha. Or at least you're too absolute. The problem with your theory (ignoring outliers) is that Good coaches and system will make use of a QB and thus - they don't go anywhere to validate your theory. I mean you can't be a total flop - or yea, teams will move on -- but if you're even ok, the system will mask mediocrity for 10 years. Joe Flacco i just mentioned -- Harbaugh's staff/system gave him over a decade in the NFL. If he had to bounce around the teams you listed above, he'd be out of a job 10 years ago. 

[Paradis]

Josh allen might be the pinnacle example of the point i'm trying to make

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, Paradis said:

you say all this, but Nick Foles won a superbowl. He, by your definition, sucked at football. Joe Flacco - has largely not been good, but had moments of greatness coached out of him.

I think you're mostly wrong haha. Or at least you're too absolute. The problem with your theory (ignoring outliers) is that Good coaches and system will make use of a QB and thus - they don't go anywhere to validate your theory. I mean you can't be a total flop - or yea, teams will move on -- but if you're even ok, the system will mask mediocrity for 10 years. Joe Flacco i just mentioned -- Harbaugh's staff/system gave him over a decade in the NFL. If he had to bounce around the teams you listed above, he'd be out of a job 10 years ago. 

Didn’t Nick Foles have like a 27 TD, 2 INT season long before winning a SB?  The guy was never special but he was competent.  So winning a SB as a relief pitcher to Wentz wasn’t as shocking as you’re arguing.

That can’t be the example that creates the hill you’re willing to die on, can it?

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, Paradis said:

Josh allen might be the pinnacle example of the point i'm trying to make

Josh Allen has elite athleticism and a maniacal desire to improve, 2 qualities that are more about him than his circumstances, and 2 things Darnold lacks.  He didn’t become a high end QB because of his coaches or Stefon Diggs, or at least they weren’t the top reasons.

Who else you got?  JN has been doing this song and dance in a lot of other threads prior over the last few years, I guess you missed those.  All of these examples you think are examples aren’t actually good examples.  

Circumstances help QBs along the way.  I’m not saying they don’t matter.  But those mostly only help good QBs get a little better.  Maybe a lot better in some cases.  They can’t fix bad QBs, ever.  Circumstances don’t matter nearly as much as you believe when it comes to QBs.

[varjet]

This would be, to me a much better team if JD paid Elflein what he wanted and left Feeney in San Diego.   Elflein would be the starting RG and GVR first reserve.  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

4 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I will have fulfilled my purpose as a man sent from the future, and will then be able to disappear, fading from existence.  

[jgb]

19 hours ago, Jackie Treehorn said:

Who wouldn’t like to be a fly on the wall when the Panthers are trying to pump him for any sort of comprehensible information. 

This is a brilliant post. 

18 hours ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Just out of curiosity, what is your goal? To convince other posters they are wrong on Darnold, and that he always sucked, sucks, and always will suck, and until every poster on this board agrees with that, you will fight the good fight? When that goal is achieved, do you get to retire a rich man, or do you still have to go to work the next day?

Ah the old “why are you here” Siegfried Line of lost debates.

14 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Josh Allen has elite athleticism and a maniacal desire to improve, 2 qualities that are more about him than his circumstances, and 2 things Darnold lacks.  He didn’t become a high end QB because of his coaches or Stefon Diggs, or at least they weren’t the top reasons.

Who else you got?  JN has been doing this song and dance in a lot of other threads prior over the last few years, I guess you missed those.  All of these examples you think are examples aren’t actually good examples.  

Circumstances help QBs along the way.  I’m not saying they don’t matter.  But those mostly only help good QBs get a little better.  Maybe a lot better in some cases.  They can’t fix bad QBs, ever.  Circumstances don’t matter nearly as much as you believe when it comes to QBs.

The only real comparator is Gannon, who was a good QB in years 13-16 of his career. So only ten more years to go for maybe Darnold to join a club that has admitted 1 member in NFL history.

It’s easier to make the HOF than to be a QB turnaround story.

[jgb]

21 hours ago, Paradis said:

all this pointing and laughing -- then Rhule will have Sam and Robbie dancing on our faces next weekend. You know they're salivating for this game.... I'm being facetious of course, but they will never more motivated than they will be next sunday

Yeah well people who make decisions based on tiny sample sizes are the type of people who draft Darnold based on a Rose Bowl. Of course Sam might go off in this game. Jets D is crap and he is a professional after all. Any pro QB is capable of having everything click over short timeframes. But the good ones can deliver high levels of performance consistently. That’s what separates Drew Brees and Tom Brady from Mark Sanchez. Physically they’re all very similar.

20 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Yes, I've played team sports.  All of my childhood and in HS.  

QB is the most important position on the field, and internal variables for the QB matter a good bit more than the team/coaches around him.  You have to be a quick processor, have the right personality/attitude, be accurate, have a decent enough arm, be able to make pre-snap decisions (which you need to learn when you're younger, you can't learn that on the fly in the pros), etc.  Better circumstances have never once in NFL history taken a bad QB and made him good.  Not once.  You may think there are examples that oppose such a claim but I assure you there really aren't.  A guy like Josh Allen had a manical drive to get better.  It wasn't Stefon Diggs that "fixed" him.  And there are a lot of other guys who weren't as bad as people would think when they first started out.  Ryan Tannehill, Drew Brees, Eli Manning, Steve Young...those guys showed a LOT more their first few years than Sam Darnold did.  

The talent around you can affect you a lot more at other positions (like having a great LT next to you helps G's, and a great EDGE rusher next to you helps DT's, etc).  But QB's have to simply "have it" or they don't, hence why its such a difficult position to evaluate.  The most difficult in pro sports.  Often you don't really know what you'll have until they arrive and start practicing at the pro level.  But as difficult a job it is, excuses just don't fly at that position, because QB's who suck their first 2-3 years tend to go on to suck at other, better destinations in 95+ % of instances.  If a QB is "secretly good", he's going to show it fairly quickly.  It's not going to take 40+ starts to see it.  You don't see the Arizona Cardinals regretting letting go of Josh Rosen after 13 starts, do you?  How about the Browns with DeShone Kizer, the Panthers with Jimmy Clausen, the Raiders with JaMarcus Russell, the Rams with Jared Goff, the the Bucs with Jameis Winston, the Titans with Marcus Mariota, the WFT with Dwayne Haskins, the Jaguars with Blake Bortles, etc etc etc.

Justin Herbert played behind the # 32 ranked OL and a HC who ended up getting fired, yet he threw for 31 TD's and just 10 INT's as a rookie.  He appears to "have it".  Darnold never has and never will.  And why is that so surprising to suggest?  At any given time, only about 12-15 people on the planet can play the QB position at a high level, and every other team is looking for an upgrade.  Sure, you'll argue a lot has to go right for a QB to be able to show he "has it", but you're wrong about which things have to go right.  What has to go right is a QB having the natural abilities and getting tons and tons of reps in High School and college before arriving in the pros.  When you get to the pros, again, you either have it or you don't.  You put wayyyyy too much stock into how much pro coaches can help pro QB's play QB better.  A QB's success is probably at least 70 % reliant on characteristics/skills/DNA he brings to the table well before arriving in the NFL.  Just like 60+ % of who we are as human beings is driven by our DNA.  Coaches can provide a great system and that certainly helps.  But you're insane if you think a QB like Joe Montana or Pat Mahomes wouldn't have had tons of success in ANY system.  

Either way, all of the numbers are on my side of this one.  Darnold will do better in Carolina, but he's not becoming a top 10 or middle of the pack QB there.  Circumstances can only do so much for QB's who suck at football.  

I wish there wasn’t a character limit on signatures.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

20 minutes ago, jgb said:

 

Ah the old “why are you here” Siegfried Line of lost debates.

 

I know you know this, because you are really, really super duper smart, but on the spectrum of why are you here, and, you spend an inordinate amount of time trashing an ex-Jet, there is middle ground.... 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I know you know this, because you are really, really super duper smart, but on the spectrum of why are you here, and, you spend an inordinate amount of time trashing an ex-Jet, there is middle ground.... 

And let me guess you believe yourself the barometer of what is a healthy and “inordinate” amount of time to spend on a Jets board.
 

All I see is someone who was losing a debate and went with an ad hominem attack to insinuate the guy thrashing you is a loser for posting on here a lot.

[Charlie Brown]

On 9/1/2021 at 11:21 PM, Beerfish said:

A team that won two games last year and is loaded with rookies all over the place talking like they are going to hammer Carolina.

Good grief Charlie Brown!

Hmmmmmmmm Good Grief is right @Beerfish  

I for one actually essentially agree we are the YOUNGEST TEAM IN THE NFL!!!

We don't just have a lot of rookies...

Indeed we are the YOUNGEST TEAM IN THE NFL! 

And historically young teams just don't start winning big right away; they just don't... 

So folks have to pump the brake just a little............

Look we might even win the game against the Panthers, but experience matters, and us acting like Saleh (WHOM I LUV) is really the Wizard of Oz...........

And Wilson (Whom I think is talented) is somehow a smaller version of Dan Marino has be tempered just a little and for all the folks laughing at the Panthers roster.....it is simple, the Panthers last year were light years, LIGHT YEARS...... better than us no matter what we are collectively pretending out here..

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

And let me guess you believe yourself the barometer of what is a healthy and “inordinate” amount of time to spend on a Jets board.
 

All I see is someone who was losing a debate and went with an ad hominem attack to insinuate the guys thrashing you is a loser for posting on here a lot.

Hi, I am the internet, have we met?

And I am not in any debate brohem, you must have me confused for someone else

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

Hi, I am the internet, have we met?

And I am not in any debate brohem, you must have me confused for someone else

A graceful disentanglement from the situation you found yourself in. Smart. 

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

A graceful disentanglement from the situation you found yourself in. Smart. 

too much cough syrup in your coffee this morning?

[jgb]

Just now, Flea Flicking Frank said:

too much cough syrup in your coffee this morning?

The earth is a sphere. As such, the sun appears at different points in the sky depending where one is on that sphere. People have come up with a concept called “time zones” to account for this variation. Its neither morning here nor are you making a good account of yourself. Suggest you back away from this one, friend.

[Spoot-Face]

[Flea Flicking Frank]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

The earth is a sphere. As such, the sun appears at different points in the sky depending where one is on that sphere. People have come up with a concept called “time zones” to account for this variation. Its neither morning here nor are you making a good account of yourself. Suggest you back away from this one, friend.

ahh, the good ole internet good account of yourself, aka internet street cred.  Congrats on that bud, enjoy all that jets message board street cred you have and your little thumbs up from JF80 and others, really, that street cred will come in handy some day.

As for the time zone, congrats on getting out of the hell hole also known as the tri-state area

[LIJetsFan]

42 minutes ago, jgb said:

This is a brilliant post. 

Ah the old “why are you here” Siegfried Line of lost debates.

The only real comparator is Gannon, who was a good QB in years 13-16 of his career. So only ten more years to go for maybe Darnold to join a club that has admitted 1 member in NFL history.

It’s easier to make the HOF than to be a QB turnaround story.

I'm happy to be playing against Sam week one too.  I think Tannehill might be the QB these resurrection guys ought to be siting.  

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, LIJetsFan said:

I'm happy to be playing against Sam week one too.  I think Tannehill might be the QB these resurrection guys ought to be siting.  

They can try but it’s already been demonstrated many times in this board that it’s a superficial comparison at best. Tannehill was light years ahead of Darnold at this point in their respective careers. Tannehill finding success was not really a hard call to make. And this is coming from the guy who was banging the table for Tannehill at the time.

[jgb]

12 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

ahh, the good ole internet good account of yourself, aka internet street cred.  Congrats on that bud, enjoy all that jets message board street cred you have and your little thumbs up from JF80 and others, really, that street cred will come in handy some day.

As for the time zone, congrats on getting out of the hell hole also known as the tri-state area

I take the argument not the man. JF80 and I have had our share of debates. But on this one there is just no denying that history and statistics are so strongly on his side.

I escaped upstate NY 38 years ago. Haven’t lived in the US for 7 years.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

I take the argument not the man. JF80 and I have had our share of debates. But on this one there is just no denying that history and statistics are so strongly on his side.

I escaped upstate NY 38 years ago. Haven’t lived in the US for 7 years.

I don't have a strong care either way on Darnold, he is gone, I care about the current Jets. 

Congrats, the tri-state area is a hell hole getting worse by the day

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I don't have a strong care either way on Darnold, he is gone, I care about the current Jets. 

Congrats, the tri-state area is a hell hole getting worse by the day

I care about Darnold this year. I want him to stink badly and maximize the value of those CAR picks we now own.

After that I don’t care if he becomes Drew Brees. The decision to move on was the correct one with the available evidence at the time it was made.

[Paradis]

19 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Josh Allen has elite athleticism and a maniacal desire to improve, 2 qualities that are more about him than his circumstances, and 2 things Darnold lacks.  He didn’t become a high end QB because of his coaches or Stefon Diggs, or at least they weren’t the top reasons.

Who else you got?  JN has been doing this song and dance in a lot of other threads prior over the last few years, I guess you missed those.  All of these examples you think are examples aren’t actually good examples.  

Circumstances help QBs along the way.  I’m not saying they don’t matter.  But those mostly only help good QBs get a little better.  Maybe a lot better in some cases.  They can’t fix bad QBs, ever.  Circumstances don’t matter nearly as much as you believe when it comes to QBs.

I don’t have the energy to defend Sam. You win. 

[Jetsfan80]

58 minutes ago, Paradis said:

I don’t have the energy to defend Sam. You win. 

[BornJetsFan1983]

On 9/1/2021 at 7:20 PM, Anthony Jet said:

Wanna be a championship caliber team, take players cut  from the worst team in the league 

coaching was the problem more so than the players..we will see

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

coaching was the problem more so than the players..we will see

If that was the case then why did Saleh sign off on letting so many players go?  You’d think he and his staff would try to “fix” guys like Darnold, Herndon, Bless, etc if coaching was their biggest problem, no?  

News flash:  Macc drafted a lot of bad players.  Story at 11.

[Spoot-Face]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If that was the case then why did Saleh sign off on letting so many players go?  You’d think he and his staff would try to “fix” guys like Darnold, Herndon, Bless, etc if coaching was their biggest problem, no?  

News flash:  Macc drafted a lot of bad players.  Story at 11.

Not enough duct tape, gorilla glue, and elbow grease in the world.

[BornJetsFan1983]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If that was the case then why did Saleh sign off on letting so many players go?  You’d think he and his staff would try to “fix” guys like Darnold, Herndon, Bless, etc if coaching was their biggest problem, no?  

News flash:  Macc drafted a lot of bad players.  Story at 11.

I agree both can be true to differing degrees, I just coaching was bigger...Adam gase effect ..

I mean those guys don't get jobs other places if they didn't have talent. But new coach wants to set new direction any do that with someone else's picks. It's not as simple as you put it , I think it was many things at once, new gm coach, bad coaching from previous regime...draft equity to hit reset etc ..but that doesn't make all the players bad, even if most were ..darbold has talent and got paid and new job, herdon is getting a chance and we will see, bless is just not starting calibre talent...lots of factors but just saying oh they suck is not accurate

[Jetsfan80]

43 minutes ago, BornJetsFan1983 said:

I agree both can be true to differing degrees, I just coaching was bigger...Adam gase effect ..

I mean those guys don't get jobs other places if they didn't have talent. But new coach wants to set new direction any do that with someone else's picks. It's not as simple as you put it , I think it was many things at once, new gm coach, bad coaching from previous regime...draft equity to hit reset etc ..but that doesn't make all the players bad, even if most were ..darbold has talent and got paid and new job, herdon is getting a chance and we will see, bless is just not starting calibre talent...lots of factors but just saying oh they suck is not accurate

But I mean, they all DID suck.  It’s not all Gase’s fault for all things.  

Gase sucks at using TEs.  Absolutely. Yet Saleh saw Herndon all summer and felt he was expendable.  That’s telling.  

[Beerfish]

If Sam Darnold beats the Jets in week one I would assume that Douglas and Saleh will be immediately fired.