Zach is the problem, not Penalties.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

2 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I think they're not making the QB change because they still want to evaluate Zach's potential future with the team plus they still have an outside shot at the playoffs.  Siemian would get killed behind this OL and nobody takes Boyle seriously.

I still think its worthwhile to change ZW out for the Bills game. IF ZW is as bad as most Jets fans seem to think he is, it would show, if not, you can always put him back in and evalute him for the rest of the year

[TuscanyTile2]

Just now, Flea Flicking Frank said:

I still think its worthwhile to change ZW out for the Bills game. IF ZW is as bad as most Jets fans seem to think he is, it would show, if not, you can always put him back in and evalute him for the rest of the year

This is a must-win game.  This is not the time to test a hypothesis.

[Warfish]

9 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I think they're not making the QB change because they still want to evaluate Zach's potential future with the team plus they still have an outside shot at the playoffs.  Siemian would get killed behind this OL and nobody takes Boyle seriously.

Since you seem to be of a like mind as them, what future are you seeing with this team exactly?

[ylekram]

13 hours ago, doitny said:

i know, another Zach thread right....

so we lost yesterday and Zach played ok. it was the penalties and drops right? 

well would it surprise you that we are the 4th least team in defensive penalties with 44? we are 2 short of leading the league in least penalties. Dallas, Buffalo have 56. SF 57, the Eagles have 61.

on offense it was lower but now were 17th with 60. the same as KC and Buffalo. SF has 62. 

and we are 9th least in yards with 443. Buffalo 476, KC 500, Det 502, Balt 532, Dall 544, SF 565. so when your complaining that we keep getting pushed back. there are a hell of a lot more teams getting pushed back even farther than us. including some of the best in the NFL.

wow look at all those penalties from SF and Buffalo. what undisciplined teams. someone should fire there HCs.

point is, everyone gets them. some of the best teams get the same or alot more than us. whats the difference? they have a QB and we have the 30th worst in the NFL. 

with Zach we have to be perfect. no penalties, no drops. defense pitching a near shutout every week. nobody can play a mistake free game.

so next time you want to complain about penalties dont, we commit less for less yards then some of the best teams around. but they can make it up with there QBs, and we cant. its the QB, not the HC.

this analysis is on genius level. you mean to tell me that Pro bowl QB's, with good weapons and olines mind you, can overcome penalties better than a sh*tty QB,with sh*tty olines and weapons? mind blown

[Greensleeves]

Well, we won 3 in a row BEFORE the onslaught of penalties, right? Hmmm. 

[TuscanyTile2]

10 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Since you seem to be of a like mind as them, what future are you seeing with this team exactly?

I think he's going to be gone after this season.  I'll be one of the few who are unhappy about it.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, TuscanyTile2 said:

I think he's going to be gone after this season.  I'll be one of the few who are unhappy about it.

well, look at it this way, if he goes somewhere else and becomes really good to great, you can give everyone on this board the biggest FU I told you so ever, and if not, than no harm no foul

[TuscanyTile2]

Just now, Flea Flicking Frank said:

well, look at it this way, if he goes somewhere else and becomes really good to great, you can give everyone on this board the biggest FU I told you so ever, and if not, than no harm no foul

That's not my M.O. 

[Warfish]

5 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I think he's going to be gone after this season.  I'll be one of the few who are unhappy about it.

Why?  I'll ask again, what future do you think Wilson has in the league, if not with us?

[AFJF]

Why can't they both be problems?

[Flea Flicking Frank]

3 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

That's not my M.O. 

I know, I was just kidding. I will say this, barring a different path to a true fanchise QB, I would like to see ZW play out and see how much he can continue to improve and even play with a better offense and line. I see no upside in any currently attainable QB or anyone on the roster.

I want to see a change becuase I don't think it will help, but I am open to the idea that it might.

For all those who want Wentz, Simien, boyle, Minshew, none of those guys are future franchise QB's and that is proven, I think its a low probability that ZW becomes that, but higher than any of those guys so I am fine seeing what he has for development for now

[TuscanyTile2]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Why?  I'll ask again, what future do you think Wilson has in the league, if not with us?

I think he'll definitely get picked up by some team (on the cheap).  Given the right situation (e.g. SF) I still think he can be a very good starter.

I don't think he'll be picked up to be the starter, btw.  He'll need the starter to get injured or something like that.

[Flea Flicking Frank]

2 minutes ago, AFJF said:

Why can't they both be problems?

There are many problems, but most arent happy unless you blame everything on ZW

[Warfish]

2 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I think he'll definitely get picked up by some team (on the cheap).  Given the right situation (e.g. SF) I still think he can be a very good starter.

I don't think he'll be picked up to be the starter, btw.  He'll need the starter to get injured or something like that.

"Very good starter", so like ranked 10-15 or somewhere along those lines?

[Plen T]

17 minutes ago, Greensleeves said:

Well, we won 3 in a row BEFORE the onslaught of penalties, right? Hmmm. 

that Denver win looks much better now also

Saleh and his whip cream coaching style is derailing this season!

[TuscanyTile2]

Just now, Warfish said:

"Very good starter", so like ranked 10-15 or somewhere along those lines?

I could see it.

[rex-n-effect]

The Jets went from relatively low penalties at the start of the season to a league leader in penalties. Those penalties always seem to come at the worst time and they are on both sides of the ball. It's a strain to try blame this on ZW because (1) they happen on both sides of the ball and (2) he's been under center the entire season. Even the argument that penalties occur because the team is trying to force plays to happen doesn't work because the team starts racking up penalties early in games. If that's really happening, it's a problem the coaches are failing to address. There's an overall lack of discipline that accompanies the penalties that contributes to problems throughout games.

Penalties are not the only problem for the team but they have become a meaningful contributor to the team not winning. You don't have to look further than the TTD that almost was on Sunday to see it happening. 

 

[shawn306]

3 hours ago, Augustiniak said:

Defense commits personal fouls out of frustration when they can’t sack the qb b/c they know they can’t afford to give up tds b/c the offense can’t score.

offense holds b/c they know they need to cheat to score.  

That’s what I’m saying.  Players are cutting corners.

Or maybe they are pressing. Literally trying to hard to break this streak. I don’t think it has anything to do with the qb. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, shawn306 said:

Or maybe they are pressing. Literally trying to hard to break this streak. I don’t think it has anything to do with the qb. 

We can agree to disagree but I think the ‘pressing’ stems from lack of scoring.

[PepPep]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

You think the season isn't done now?

It doesn't matter what I think. But the coaches and brass definitely don't think its done. Coaches never think its over until they are mathematically out. And for the record. No. With this defense I don't think its over. We beat the Eagles with Zach, we beat the Bills with Zach and the refs robbed us of beating the Chiefs with Zach. So yes, as insane as it sounds, there is still a shred of hope that the Jets can win a handful of games with the worst QB in the league and sneak in. 

 

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Changing QB's due to a lack of production and benching all your starters are not the same thing.

I never said it was the same thing. I just said that given the options at the position. And yes, this was a major fail by JD (not having a competent backup), putting in Siemian or Boyle is like giving up on the season. So yeah, you may as well rest the starters, let the young depth guys get reps and look to next season. 

 

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I don't believe there is any meaningful QB metric for which Seimien is not superior to Zach Wilson.

So if Seimien is "awful" and playing him signifies "ending the season", what does continuing to play Zach mean?

The coaches, who see these guys play in person on a regular basis and know a heck of a lot about football clearly disagree or Siemian would have been out there by now. Siemian and Boyle are stiffs. Zach may not be good. like at all. But these two are even worse, which is why they were not rostered until the Jets picked up Boyle to be a mentor and then picked up Siemian off the street as an emergency QB in case Zach got hurt.

 

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I'd like to see the Jets play with a different QB, and see what those results look like, yes.

I believe the season, as a competitive endeavor, is long over at this point.  The idea this team is going to make the playoffs is laughable to me.  I'd love to be wrong, but I think the next two weeks, vs. Buffalo in Buffalo and vs. Miami, will seal the deal on the end of this year.  4-7 looking at a likely 6-11 finish with things as they are now, and maybe your view will start to change, maybe not.

Sure, maybe you are right. You probably are. But again, no coach in their right mind is assuming the season is over until the team is mathematically out.  If they somehow BEAT Buffalo and Miami. Well, now everything changes. NFL professionals simply don't have that kind of defeatist mentality. Not the players, not the coaches. 

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Lets prove it by playing one of them, preferably Seimien (ugh, just saying that makes me want to vomit, lol). 

Then we'll know for sure. 

I'd wager it won't be as low production as the last three weeks have been.

But no, I do not expect this organization to make the switch, I fully expect to see Zach Wilson start the rest of this season even if we don't score another TD all year on offense, and that he will be back as our backup next year too.  I have no idea why (and I don't buy the Jet Blue conspiracy), but it just seems that's the way JD wants it.  Maybe, like some here at JN, he is simply a true believer that Zach has elite potential and is improving on his way to greatness, who knows.

Hey, I'm at a point where, if the coaches feel like Siemian looks good in practice, put him in and bench Zach. But I'm not folding on the season in week 11. And I don't think the coaches or the players are. So if Siemian is just an experiment without any justification other than - Zach is playing poorly so lets put this stiff in. Then I'm not supporting it.  That's just me. How about we try to fix all the other problems a little bit and maybe, just maybe we can win some game with this terrible QB. Cuz, to me, Siemian and Boyle are not viable options for improvement.  

[PepPep]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Not really.  If you think about it. 

Improved QB play opens up things, like the running game.  A less-stacked box, means less need to hold (or desperately try and make a play), on each run play.  Improved passing effectiveness opens the field, broadens holes and gaps, and generally gives more opportunity everywhere for successful offensive production.  Same can be said for drops.  Lazard, for example, was a 2% and 6% drop guy in GB with Rodgers.  He's well over 10% now with Zach.  Did he just forget to catch in the offseason?  I doubt it.

But you have to have a QB who can do this, and we likely do not, even if we try Seimien (who I do not like at all) instead of Zach.

JD has made sure we have no real compelling option other than Zach once Rodgers became unavailable.  This is how he built it, and so that is how it will be.

There's a difference between improved QB play that you get with a guy like Rodgers and whatever hot mess QB play you will get if you drop Siemian or Boyle in the mess that is our offense. Which, by the way, may not be improved at all. No guarantee (as bad as Zach is) that Siemian or Boyle will be any better. 

Yes, of course, improved QB play helps the run game, helps with drops, helps with penalties (especially holding and false starts). But not nec. when you put is a stiff like Siemian or Boyle. 

[Rich Thornburgh]

1 hour ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

There are many problems, but most arent happy unless you blame everything on ZW

He’s the NFL’s worst quarterback by every metric.  But yeah it’s the defense’s fault 

[Rich Thornburgh]

44 minutes ago, PepPep said:

It doesn't matter what I think. But the coaches and brass definitely don't think its done. Coaches never think its over until they are mathematically out. And for the record. No. With this defense I don't think its over. We beat the Eagles with Zach, we beat the Bills with Zach and the refs robbed us of beating the Chiefs with Zach. So yes, as insane as it sounds, there is still a shred of hope that the Jets can win a handful of games with the worst QB in the league and sneak in. 

 

I never said it was the same thing. I just said that given the options at the position. And yes, this was a major fail by JD (not having a competent backup), putting in Siemian or Boyle is like giving up on the season. So yeah, you may as well rest the starters, let the young depth guys get reps and look to next season. 

 

The coaches, who see these guys play in person on a regular basis and know a heck of a lot about football clearly disagree or Siemian would have been out there by now. Siemian and Boyle are stiffs. Zach may not be good. like at all. But these two are even worse, which is why they were not rostered until the Jets picked up Boyle to be a mentor and then picked up Siemian off the street as an emergency QB in case Zach got hurt.

 

Sure, maybe you are right. You probably are. But again, no coach in their right mind is assuming the season is over until the team is mathematically out.  If they somehow BEAT Buffalo and Miami. Well, now everything changes. NFL professionals simply don't have that kind of defeatist mentality. Not the players, not the coaches. 

Hey, I'm at a point where, if the coaches feel like Siemian looks good in practice, put him in and bench Zach. But I'm not folding on the season in week 11. And I don't think the coaches or the players are. So if Siemian is just an experiment without any justification other than - Zach is playing poorly so lets put this stiff in. Then I'm not supporting it.  That's just me. How about we try to fix all the other problems a little bit and maybe, just maybe we can win some game with this terrible QB. Cuz, to me, Siemian and Boyle are not viable options for improvement.  

We were incredibly lucky to win 4 games with Zach Wilson.  You can only be incredibly lucky for so long.  

[Flea Flicking Frank]

1 minute ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

He’s the NFL’s worst quarterback by every metric.  But yeah it’s the defense’s fault 

huh? who said anything about the defenses fault, Rich? Are you that sensitive? Do you need a hug?

[Rich Thornburgh]

2 minutes ago, Flea Flicking Frank said:

huh? who said anything about the defenses fault, Rich? Are you that sensitive? Do you need a hug?

Just saying.  Your Zach defense mechanisms are recycled nonsense from the Chris Simms podcast

[Flea Flicking Frank]

Just now, Rich Thornburgh said:

Just saying.  Your Zach defense mechanisms are recycled nonsense from the Chris Simms podcast

[Jet_Engine1]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

There is an excellent and available way to test the "QB vs. Penalties vs. O-line vs. Bad WR" theories.

Replace the QB, see what happens.

It's literally the only available move to test this theory.

You cannot replace your entire O-line.

You cannot replace all the WR's.

You can coach for less penalties, of course, but it's not a sure thing.

Only replacing the QB can truly test if the other three issues are the main issues, or if the QB was the main issue.

If a horrid nobody like Boyle does meaningfully better, or if Seimien, a JAG journeyman at best, does meaningfully better, then we would know it was, in fact, the QB.

Which, honestly, is likely why JD and Saleh won't make that change.  They don't want to expose Zach, who they plan to have back for year 4 as their backup again, as the problem.  

Ultimately, Zach is currently going down in history as one of the biggest bust QB's of all time.  In part because the Jets brass has continued to roll him out there, despite clearly not being capable or able to do so productively.

They already have the empirical evidence to prove this hypothesis:

Flacco

White

Johnson.

 

They know the answer.

[doitny]

5 hours ago, Plen T said:

lol no, other teams do not have 8 penalties for 90 yards and every huge play brought back by penalties

last week....

Pitts had 10 pen for 80 yds.....and won.

KC...9-65.....and won

Atl....8-62.....and lost....but scored 28 points.

GB....8-57.....and won

Houston 9-115.....AND WON!!!!.....TB lost the game with 9-90 but scored 37 points.

Chicago 8-71.....and won

Phila 10-98......and won

this week...

SF 7-90.....and won

Clev 10-55 ...and won

Arizona 11-112......scored 25 points......and WON

Dallas 9-83....and won.

Seattle 8-50... and won

Denver 10-61...and won

the Jets?? 8-83 and lost...so its not that Saleh is undisciplined. everybody gets penalties, and alot of them and overcome them. we dont. 

but you guys act like were the only ones who get this many penalties. 

 

[doitny]

5 hours ago, rex-n-effect said:

The Jets went from relatively low penalties at the start of the season to a league leader in penalties. Those penalties always seem to come at the worst time and they are on both sides of the ball. It's a strain to try blame this on ZW because (1) they happen on both sides of the ball and (2) he's been under center the entire season. Even the argument that penalties occur because the team is trying to force plays to happen doesn't work because the team starts racking up penalties early in games. If that's really happening, it's a problem the coaches are failing to address. There's an overall lack of discipline that accompanies the penalties that contributes to problems throughout games.

Penalties are not the only problem for the team but they have become a meaningful contributor to the team not winning. You don't have to look further than the TTD that almost was on Sunday to see it happening. 

 

your right we are league leader in penalties.. least penalties on defense. well 2 short of being the least on defense. offense was 10th heading into sunday but now were 17th. 

if its a disciple problem then KC, SF, Dallas, Buffalo have them too on offense. and the entire league has a disciple problem on defense cause were 2 away from being the best.

so when people here attack Saleh for the penalties calling him an undiscipline clown show well then Andy Reid, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McCarthy and McDermort are even bigger clown shows. 

yeah we have given up alot these pass few weeks, but everybody does and they win. but us? we have to have almost no penalties to win....and when we do win....we barely win. no mistakes, and a defense that has to allow no TDs. i think thats unfair to attack the HC or anybody else to expect a perfect game every week.

you wanna fired Saleh for Zach still being on this team, i can understand that, even though i think somebody else made that choice for him. but to kill him for penalties when the best HCs in the NFL have more than him is wrong. they can survive cause they have QBs and we have the worst. i really hope Rodgers plays all year next year and Saleh is here to coach him. it would be interesting to see him with a really good QB for once.

[Plen T]

1 hour ago, doitny said:

last week....

Pitts had 10 pen for 80 yds.....and won.

KC...9-65.....and won

Atl....8-62.....and lost....but scored 28 points.

GB....8-57.....and won

Houston 9-115.....AND WON!!!!.....TB lost the game with 9-90 but scored 37 points.

Chicago 8-71.....and won

Phila 10-98......and won

this week...

SF 7-90.....and won

Clev 10-55 ...and won

Arizona 11-112......scored 25 points......and WON

Dallas 9-83....and won.

Seattle 8-50... and won

Denver 10-61...and won

the Jets?? 8-83 and lost...so its not that Saleh is undisciplined. everybody gets penalties, and alot of them and overcome them. we dont. 

but you guys act like were the only ones who get this many penalties. 

 

you missed the 2nd half of my post mate

[Ron Rico]

6 hours ago, rex-n-effect said:

The Jets went from relatively low penalties at the start of the season to a league leader in penalties. Those penalties always seem to come at the worst time and they are on both sides of the ball. It's a strain to try blame this on ZW because (1) they happen on both sides of the ball and (2) he's been under center the entire season. Even the argument that penalties occur because the team is trying to force plays to happen doesn't work because the team starts racking up penalties early in games. If that's really happening, it's a problem the coaches are failing to address. There's an overall lack of discipline that accompanies the penalties that contributes to problems throughout games.

Penalties are not the only problem for the team but they have become a meaningful contributor to the team not winning. You don't have to look further than the TTD that almost was on Sunday to see it happening. 

 

It's because of the elephant in the room. How does Saleh address a player who keeps screwing up, when he has to ignore Sad Sack Wilson's screw ups? 

Pick a team, any team, back in the 80's or 90's that Sad Sack would have lasted this long. Imagine the NFC East when Gibbs, Buddy Ryan, Parcells and Jimmy Johnson were HC and Zach was on any one of those teams and not once-- NOT ONE FREAKING TIME--- the HC never screamed at him on the sideline? 

C'mon. 

Saleh's a patsy. Get his ass out of here. Meat neck looking MFer.

[doitny]

23 minutes ago, Plen T said:

you missed the 2nd half of my post mate

no i didnt

so with all these teams getting 8...9..10 penalties do you think that none of them are on huge plays? only the Jets get TD called back by penalties? i dont watch every game as im sure you dont neither but i doubt it very much that this only happens to us.

 

 

[rex-n-effect]

42 minutes ago, doitny said:

your right we are league leader in penalties.. least penalties on defense. well 2 short of being the least on defense. offense was 10th heading into sunday but now were 17th. 

if its a disciple problem then KC, SF, Dallas, Buffalo have them too on offense. and the entire league has a disciple problem on defense cause were 2 away from being the best.

so when people here attack Saleh for the penalties calling him an undiscipline clown show well then Andy Reid, Kyle Shanahan, Mike McCarthy and McDermort are even bigger clown shows. 

yeah we have given up alot these pass few weeks, but everybody does and they win. but us? we have to have almost no penalties to win....and when we do win....we barely win. no mistakes, and a defense that has to allow no TDs. i think thats unfair to attack the HC or anybody else to expect a perfect game every week.

you wanna fired Saleh for Zach still being on this team, i can understand that, even though i think somebody else made that choice for him. but to kill him for penalties when the best HCs in the NFL have more than him is wrong. they can survive cause they have QBs and we have the worst. i really hope Rodgers plays all year next year and Saleh is here to coach him. it would be interesting to see him with a really good QB for once.

It's not in any way surprising that teams with good players can generally afford to make more mistakes and still win games. That's not an excuse for making those mistakes. After what happened last night, I'm not sure why you're holding out BUF as an example of a team that can win despite penalties. 

Stats alone don't tell the entire story--as you point out some of the best teams in the league have a lot of penalties but so do a lot of bad teams. 

If you wanted to look purely at penalty stats, they don't help your argument as much as you think. The Jets are third in penalties in the league over the past three games--things are trending the wrong way. By your own cite, the offense is roughly in the middle of the league for penalties but that's actually really bad because the team has some of the fewest offensive plays in the league. Per offensive play, the number of penalties is alarmingly high. The Jets are also among the top teams for dropped passes. When the players around ZW are killing drives with penalties and dropping catchable balls, the offense is going to look even worse than it should with a clunker of a QB. 

I'm not defending ZW here. He's not good. He's not the only problem on the field contributing to these excruciating games. The penalties aren't the only problem, either.  

[rex-n-effect]

28 minutes ago, Ron Rico said:

It's because of the elephant in the room. How does Saleh address a player who keeps screwing up, when he has to ignore Sad Sack Wilson's screw ups? 

Pick a team, any team, back in the 80's or 90's that Sad Sack would have lasted this long. Imagine the NFC East when Gibbs, Buddy Ryan, Parcells and Jimmy Johnson were HC and Zach was on any one of those teams and not once-- NOT ONE FREAKING TIME--- the HC never screamed at him on the sideline? 

C'mon. 

Saleh's a patsy. Get his ass out of here. Meat neck looking MFer.

Are you asking how does a manager address a problem with an employee when there's an employee with more problems?

[Ron Rico]

2 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said:

Are you asking how does a manager address a problem with an employee when there's an employee with more problems?

Yes.