no new NT

[bitonti]

you guys are gonna bash me like crazy for this statement

but after looking at the list of pending free agents and the draft

I don't think the Jets will be able to find a better 3-4 NT than current personnel (that includes Pouha and Tui on IR)

Seriously do some research there's not a single real NT who is coming due for FA next year... and I cannot find any legitimate 3-4 NT in the college ranks only undersized sleepers. the guy everyone wants Branch from michigan is not only a junior but also too tall for nose tackle.

i know it's early in the process

i know they could work out a trade of some kind

but i see all these wish list postings for a true 3-4 NT

well im here to say it aint gonna happen - at least not next year

[The Big Green Douche]

you guys are gonna bash me like crazy for this statement

but after looking at the list of pending free agents and the draft

I don't think the Jets will be able to find a better 3-4 NT than current personnel (that includes Pouha and Tui on IR)

Seriously do some research there's not a single real NT who is coming due for FA next year... and I cannot find any legitimate 3-4 NT in the college ranks only undersized sleepers. the guy everyone wants Branch from michigan is not only a junior but also too tall for nose tackle.

i know it's early in the process

i know they could work out a trade of some kind

but i see all these wish list postings for a true 3-4 NT

well im here to say it aint gonna happen - at least not next year

Say it aint so. This cant be true.

[Sperm Edwards]

Hope for someone to be released I guess. Passing on Gabe Watson as though talented players with that kind of mass grow on trees was a mistake.

[PatsFanTX]

you guys are gonna bash me like crazy for this statement

but after looking at the list of pending free agents and the draft

I don't think the Jets will be able to find a better 3-4 NT than current personnel (that includes Pouha and Tui on IR)

Seriously do some research there's not a single real NT who is coming due for FA next year... and I cannot find any legitimate 3-4 NT in the college ranks only undersized sleepers. the guy everyone wants Branch from michigan is not only a junior but also too tall for nose tackle.

i know it's early in the process

i know they could work out a trade of some kind

but i see all these wish list postings for a true 3-4 NT

well im here to say it aint gonna happen - at least not next year

Wow, that's a serious problem. The 3-4 will never work without a big load NT.

You guys think Mangini would ever consider dumping the 3-4 and going to a 4-3?

Personally, I can't see that happening. Mangini has been associated with the 3-4 his entire career.

But there comes a point in time when you finally realize that you can't fit a square peg in a round hole.

[JetCane]

I saw the list that someone posted here the other day, and I agree. There was no one I saw that made me blink.

[harts724]

Hope for someone to be released I guess. Passing on Gabe Watson as though talented players with that kind of mass grow on trees was a mistake.

Watson has only played in 2 games this year with only one start (1 tackle-1 asst.) let`s not put him in canton just yet.

[Barton]

There is no NT out there, especially not in free agency.

We're gonna depend on a rookie NT to shore up the defense? What rookie NT?

There arent any good ones in the draft.

If Mangini still has Drob or Pouha as his NT heading into next year, and continues to play the 3-4 I will gladly bash him to no end. It makes no sense to play the 3-4 when we have nobody on the defense who's good at it. Its even stupid to do it right now.

We are last vs the run.

This defense is very close to the same unit that stopped the run in 2004.

Grab a big DT or passrushing DE in the 1st rd and switch back to the 4-3 if we cant find a NT.

[Jack Straw]

Hope for someone to be released I guess. Passing on Gabe Watson as though talented players with that kind of mass grow on trees was a mistake.

Gabe Watson blows.

[Jack Straw]

Wow, that's a serious problem. The 3-4 will never work without a big load NT.

You guys think Mangini would ever consider dumping the 3-4 and going to a 4-3?

Personally, I can't see that happening. Mangini has been associated with the 3-4 his entire career.

But there comes a point in time when you finally realize that you can't fit a square peg in a round hole.

Why shouldn't Mangini be able to scrap the 3-4? People act like this guy has been running the system for 35+ years. He's 35 FRIGGIN years old. He was a DC for one year. He shouldn't be attached to any system, let alone the 3-4 which is ill suited for the Jets.

[Sperm Edwards]

Watson has only played in 2 games this year with only one start (1 tackle-1 asst.) let`s not put him in canton just yet.

How many rookie DT's start from game one?

I'm not putting him in Canton. But NT is a crucial position to not only fill, but fill appropriately. Space-eaters with talent do not grow on trees. They're actually quite rare; more rare than almost any other position. It's the reason players who are injury-prone/underachievers (Grady Jackson) or over-the-hill types (Ted Washington) still find work. Without one, a 3-4 defense is an invitation to run up the gut for sure first-downs/touchdowns with even a smaller HB.

I doubt a safety of Eric Smith's or Anthony Schlegel's talent is more difficult to replace than that of Watson's. And that's who we chose instead. So putting Watson in Canton is only a valid argument if you think both of those two are getting there.

[afosomf]

you guys are gonna bash me like crazy for this statement

but after looking at the list of pending free agents and the draft

I don't think the Jets will be able to find a better 3-4 NT than current personnel (that includes Pouha and Tui on IR)

Seriously do some research there's not a single real NT who is coming due for FA next year... and I cannot find any legitimate 3-4 NT in the college ranks only undersized sleepers. the guy everyone wants Branch from michigan is not only a junior but also too tall for nose tackle.

i know it's early in the process

i know they could work out a trade of some kind

but i see all these wish list postings for a true 3-4 NT

well im here to say it aint gonna happen - at least not next year

what's wrong with your "butcher with a bowling bowl" has he turned into

"Urkel with a tude"

[JetCane]

Why shouldn't Mangini be able to scrap the 3-4? People act like this guy has been running the system for 35+ years. He's 35 FRIGGIN years old. He was a DC for one year. He shouldn't be attached to any system, let alone the 3-4 which is ill suited for the Jets.

I posted what I thought was the answer to this a few weeks ago.

He is stubborn.

[bitonti]

just to clarify

we are talking "big name" nose tackles either via FA/or draft - these are the official NFL page

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/POS_NT

as far as my research goes only Bears DT Ian Scott is both relatively young and a UFA next year - he is a very good run stuffer but is out of favor in Chicago. Intersting fun fact he's the fourth rounder in the "two firsts and fourth" deal everyone loves to talk about.

Eagles DT Sam Rayburn is an interesting name, not the biggest but tough against the run unfortunately not UFA next year but who knows could get moved in a deal. we could talk about trades but they rarely occur.

as for the draft again am talking big "Vince Wilfork" type names that fit within the guidelines for NT: 6-0 to 6-3 over 300 bills. Taller than that is rare e.g. Ted Washington who is generously listed 365 but it gets dicey with tall nose tackles and is not the ideal unless they are freakishly large.

as for the draft - top senior "nose tackles"

Brandon Mebane 6-3 306 California

Louis Leonard 6-3 330 Fresno State

Howie Fuimaono UNLV 6-0 335

Conrad Bolston 6-3 303 Maryland

no real house hold names jump out in the class. Brandon Mebane of Cal is probably the best but hasn't been having a good year well. Louis Leonard of Fresno State is well regarded and will be watching him. I use nose tackles in quotes because none of these players actually play in the 3-4.

deep sleepers

Steve Roach Penn St 6-1 308

Dominic Lee Alabama 6-2 305

Juan Underwood Marshall 6-3 325

Dontre Brown East Carolina 6-1 330

also the season's far from over - guys do come out of nowhere. for example East Carolina's Dontre Brown having a good year after knee reconstruction.

this is existing personnel - i'm not saying they suck - what i am saying is they might not be able to do all that much better in the near term.

Tui Alailefaleula 6-3 350 (IR)

Rashad Moore 6-3 325

C.J. Mosely 6-2 314

Sione Pouha 6-3 325 (IR)

Dewayne Robertson 6-1 317

there are always guys out there - and I know the Jets will keep the revolving door moving...

my point is this is a very hard task - just not alot out there. people talk about picking up a man mountain two gap nose tackle like it so easy to do... dont be too sure about that.

the planet theory invented by George Young and perfected by Parcells is purely a function of mass times acceleration - loosely stated, planet theory comes down to the fact that statistically are only so many big fat men on the planet who run well. When you get a chance you should usually get them.

Funny story at the time of the Vilma draft both Hammer and myself were convinced the Jets were lying about their intentions to draft Vilma and were darkhorses to take a DT. He wanted Harris, I wanted Wilfork. At the time we felt a little silly, after all Vilma was DROY and a pro bowl alternate...what fools we were to want Defensive tackles!

but now as it turns out we can take undersized 4-3 DE and put them at 3-4 ILB (for example Lamarr Woodley of Michigan), meanwhile Vilma looks lost and the Jets don't have a real nose tackle. Hmmm...

the good news is there is always next year and year after - some good juniors and sophs... some could declare early but at NT position that means usually they are further away from contributing immediately.

[Untouchable]

F*ck Gabe Watson, we screwed up by not signing Grady Jackson when we had him in for a visit.

We should've never let him leave the building without signing on the dotted line.:Cuss:

[mr nyjet]

the secret plan is for mangini himself to suit up and play nt.

he's certainly able to eat up a lot of space......

[PeterNorth09]

Watson has only played in 2 games this year with only one start (1 tackle-1 asst.) let`s not put him in canton just yet.

Defensive Tackles don't get stats. They're job is to take up blockers and free up the rest of the defensive players.

In their game against Kansas City when Watson subbed in for an injured Kendrick Clancy he helped the Cardinals defense hold Larry Johnson to 36 yards on 16 carries. Last week against a good Bears' offensive line he helped hold Thomas Jones to 39 yards on 11 carries. So far he's played pretty well especially considering he's a project.

Watson or Schlegel?

[Gibbon]

Defensive Tackles don't get stats. They're job is to take up blockers and free up the rest of the defensive players.

In their game against Kansas City when Watson subbed in for an injured Kendrick Clancy he helped the Cardinals defense hold Larry Johnson to 36 yards on 16 carries. Last week against a good Bears' offensive line he helped hold Thomas Jones to 39 yards on 11 carries. So far he's played pretty well especially considering he's a project.

Watson or Schlegel?

Remember when the Jets passed on Watson they had a number of NT candidates. At that point Sione Pouha wasnt on IR and I'm not sure about Tui. Plus they had DRob that they needed to play somewhere. Sometimes teams pass on a guy and only later have a need for the position that guy plays.

I agree that the NT isnt supposed to get big stats, but peopel here dont seem to take that into consideration when evaluating DRob. Based on numbers DRob had a stellar game by comparison to Gabe Watson and he's not an old guy. Neither is Pouha. It would have taken incredible forsight to see that this team was going to be thin at NT back in April, so I think blaming the Jets managment for passing on Watson is bit of a stretch.

[Ranger]

The Jets may not need to look anywhere....trying to be optomistic, but if the Jets are truely in need of a NT, they will make a move for one......The Grand Pouha was supposed to be improved this year and Tui is of ideal size and young, but we haven't seen anything from him yet due to IR......

Tui may grow into the position, who knows.....besides they can't be much worse than what the Jets have now

[PatsFanTX]

what's wrong with your "butcher with a bowling bowl" has he turned into

"Urkel with a tude"

assmop, which player are you referring to?

[Sperm Edwards]

my point is this is a very hard task - just not alot out there. people talk about picking up a man mountain two gap nose tackle like it so easy to do... dont be too sure about that.

the planet theory invented by George Young and perfected by Parcells is purely a function of mass times acceleration - loosely stated, planet theory comes down to the fact that statistically are only so many big fat men on the planet who run well. When you get a chance you should usually get them.

Exactly my point. A slow, however ideally sized, ILB is a hell of a lot easier to find than an athletic 340-lb NT.

And Untouchable I agree completely about Grady Jackson, particularly after we passed on Watson. It was a perfect fit - an experienced veteran at an area of singular need. It was arrogant of Mangini to take a pass on him.

[mbn007]

I think it is a fair statement from Bit here. There does not seem to be much out there in the College ranks, and the list of potential FAs is small, and not very appealing. We may very well find ourselves looking at these 3 for our NT next season:

Rashad Moore 6-3 325

C.J. Mosely 6-2 314

Sione Pouha 6-3 325

Pouha was reportedly in excellent shape when he got hurt. Maybe he can really play, who knows?

[bitonti]

Exactly my point. A slow, however ideally sized, ILB is a hell of a lot easier to find than an athletic 340-lb NT.

And Untouchable I agree completely about Grady Jackson, particularly after we passed on Watson. It was a perfect fit - an experienced veteran at an area of singular need. It was arrogant of Mangini to take a pass on him.

especially if he's a two down ILB who is too slow to play ST

as for Grady jackson I give the FO a pass on that - two reasons -

one he's not a real fit for the franchise - very much a one year rental who wants to win a ring, not necessarily just play for the highest bidder. Jets fans think about the team first but if we are honest we will realize there's no guaruntee Jackson would have even wanted to play for the Jets. Some players want money, some just want a job and some want a legitimate chance for a SB ring, i think Jackson falls into the latter category - he's a mercinary who wants glory and money not just money. Plus the Jets really weren't in a position to add guys like that - they aren't 1 player away and Grady is a "one player away" type of signing.

two- there isn't a single player on the roster older than the Penguin - that's not by accident.

[Sperm Edwards]

Pouha doesn't weigh 325 anymore. On him, that weight only looked good on paper. He was a fat, utterly useless slob at 325. In camp he was down to like 305.

[#27TheDominator]

I think it is a fair statement from Bit here. There does not seem to be much out there in the College ranks, and the list of potential FAs is small, and not very appealing. We may very well find ourselves looking at these 3 for our NT next season:

Rashad Moore 6-3 325

C.J. Mosely 6-2 314

Sione Pouha 6-3 325

Pouha was reportedly in excellent shape when he got hurt. Maybe he can really play, who knows?

Two of those guys aren't hurt and can't unseat Robertson now. How are they an upgrade? You left out the two most likely candidates-Robertson and Tui.

[JetCane]

Two of those guys aren't hurt and can't unseat Robertson now. How are they an upgrade? You left out the two most likely candidates-Robertson and Tui.

Honestly, I dont recall Pouha doing much of anything in tc before he got hurt; he looked like a JAG, but I had hoped he would somehow "get it".

I thought the DL looked better with Tui playing.

[#27TheDominator]

Honestly, I dont recall Pouha doing much of anything in tc before he got hurt; he looked like a JAG, but I had hoped he would somehow "get it".

I thought the DL looked better with Tui playing.

I didn't go to camp this year, but Pouha sure didn't impress me last season. Worst part of it is that he is a guy that was supposed to be mature and more ready to step right in to the NFL.

Same thing with Schlegel. What concerns me about Schlegel is not that a 3rd round pick hasn't contributed yet, but that he was supposed to be ready to help as a run stopper right away, even if he doesn't have the speed to be a top flight or even every down LB. It's a lot easier to teach a guy to play LB than to run .3 faster in the 40.

[Gibbon]

Ok, so Watson gets a pass for not starting every game, but Schlegel who plays behind a Pro Bowler, a guy with 8 years of experience and a guy with 5 years experience is a bust? As for the 40 time, I wasnt aware that guys lined up and ran 40s during a game. Quick decision making and understanding your assignment can more than make up for being 3 tenths of a second slower than another guy.

The Watson pass and the Schlegel pick have nothing to do with one another. I agree that for the Jets to stock up on ILBs and then pick Schlegel is curious. But maybe were looking at it the wrong way. Maybe Schlegel doesnt play special teams because he cant get past the quality and experience in front of him. Maybe the fact that they are carrying him despite not playing him is an indication of their faith in him and his abilities.

[Sperm Edwards]

Two-down ILB's are not that hard to find. Schlegel was optimistically projected as a 5th-rounder. And you make it sound like he's 3rd in line behind Vilma & Barton which he clearly is not. I don't think he's been on the active roster in any of the Jets' 6 games & probably won't be this week either.

NT's are very hard to find. It would have shocked no one if Watson went in the first round.

How rare? There are NONE coming out this year. Maybe or maybe not the year after that. ILB's? There are plenty of them drafted every year. They're also not pricey as FA's either. But a non-pro bowl NT like Kemoeatu gets a $27.5M contract for 5 years. When you are implementing a 3-4 front and don't have one on your roster, you GRAB one if the opportunity presents itself.

I think Schlegel could turn into a starter down the road. If he reaches his full potential he'll be a serviceable 2-down starter. If Watson reaches his full potential he'll be in the anchor in an immovable rush defense.

Regardless, both Schlegel AND Eric Smith (who was projected to be an UDFA) could have STILL been had AND taken a NT. Or at worst, Watson and only ONE of those two. Too much value placed on "character" for someone who's just a kid - and it's not like he was a bad kid; just under-motivated at the college level. I hope Mangini/Tannenbaum learn from it.

Still think that the pick was the beast Ngata with the #4 pick; there were a bunch of OT's in this draft.

[bitonti]

Still think that the pick was the beast Ngata with the #4 pick; there were a bunch of OT's in this draft.

although I believe he could, some scouts say NGata at 6045 was too tall for 3-4 NT and therefore not seriously considerd by the Jets.

Brick overall was a more accomplished prospect so I can't really fault the Jets Fo for passing on Ngata (who is playing 4-3 Dt right now).

[Sperm Edwards]

although I believe he could, some scouts say NGata at 6045 was too tall for 3-4 NT and therefore not seriously considerd by the Jets.

Brick overall was a more accomplished prospect so I can't really fault the Jets Fo for passing on Ngata (who is playing 4-3 Dt right now).

You'll find "some scouts" to say just about anything, as you well know. Like "some scouts" saying Brick was too light to ever be anything more than a mediocre-at-best run blocker. Not necessarily true, as he's still young & these guys' frames fill out in the pro's. I don't think Brick was at all a BAD pick. Just that he may not have been the best value to this team.

And Baltimore is surrendering 2.74 ypc and 1 TD to RB's this year as long as you brought them up.

[quietjets]

There are a few sizable DTs in div 2 but I am not sure if those DTs are able to do 2 gaps job.

Pouha lost a lot of weight and would be a qualified DE not DT this year. He can gain some muscles to get weight back for next year.

Tui and Moore will do in long term but not this year as Jets are learning 3-4 defense.

Mosley is on the way to become a legitimate 3-4 nose. He is young and has plenty room to gain 10 pounds on him.

You should not make an attempt on lazy DT for 3-4 nose, hence passing on Watson.

I dont see Jets compel to find a NT right away unless Branch falls onto Jets' selection.

[Sperm Edwards]

There are no guarantees in the draft. When drafting, a decision needs to be made: who has the best chance (through a combination of attitude & ability) to have a major impact on this team?

Drafting him late in the 3rd round when he was projected in the first can be quite a motivator for someone looking for a payday.

I hope he's a bust.

[Gibbon]

Two-down ILB's are not that hard to find. Schlegel was optimistically projected as a 5th-rounder. And you make it sound like he's 3rd in line behind Vilma & Barton which he clearly is not. I don't think he's been on the active roster in any of the Jets' 6 games & probably won't be this week either.

NT's are very hard to find. It would have shocked no one if Watson went in the first round.

How rare? There are NONE coming out this year. Maybe or maybe not the year after that. ILB's? There are plenty of them drafted every year. They're also not pricey as FA's either. But a non-pro bowl NT like Kemoeatu gets a $27.5M contract for 5 years. When you are implementing a 3-4 front and don't have one on your roster, you GRAB one if the opportunity presents itself.

I think Schlegel could turn into a starter down the road. If he reaches his full potential he'll be a serviceable 2-down starter. If Watson reaches his full potential he'll be in the anchor in an immovable rush defense.

Regardless, both Schlegel AND Eric Smith (who was projected to be an UDFA) could have STILL been had AND taken a NT. Or at worst, Watson and only ONE of those two. Too much value placed on "character" for someone who's just a kid - and it's not like he was a bad kid; just under-motivated at the college level. I hope Mangini/Tannenbaum learn from it.

Still think that the pick was the beast Ngata with the #4 pick; there were a bunch of OT's in this draft.

If Watson was that rare and valuable a commodity why did so many teams pass on him for so long? I watch a lot of Big 10 football and I dont recall him being such an immovable object in the middle of Michigan's D line. The guy had a crappy work ethic and took whole series off in college. Going into the draft the Jets had 2-3 NT candidates (one of whom, DRob, they already had serious money invested in) therefor drafting an NT wasnt big enough priority to risk spending the pick on a guy that many teams obviously had serious questions about. You can question why the Jets spent a 3rd on an ILB when they already had 3 good ones or why they picked Smith at the end of the third, but those guys, their value as third rounders, has nothing to do with Watson value.

[Sperm Edwards]

It has to do with value. Schlegel and Smith were poor value at that spot. Watson was great value. NONE of the three may turn into ANYTHING. If they got someone else instead of those two (Norwood, etc) I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. They could've been had much later. If Smith was projected as an UDFA, why not take him then? The analogy is to pretend Watson was an UDFA - would we not pick him up?

[LionelRichie]

It has to do with value. Schlegel and Smith were poor value at that spot. Watson was great value. NONE of the three may turn into ANYTHING. If they got someone else instead of those two (Norwood, etc) I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it. They could've been had much later. If Smith was projected as an UDFA, why not take him then? The analogy is to pretend Watson was an UDFA - would we not pick him up?

Sperm - you haven't been paying attention for the past 9 months. mangini, especially in year 1 is building the program from the ground up with "his" guys. i don't think it mattered if watson projected to start from day 1 there was no way he was going to be on this team, especially in year 1.