QB Comparasin

[ECURB]

I like both JETS QB's just for the record... the other night though I noticed something that made Kellen's JETS debut not seem so hot...

VS the Ravens

Derek Anderson - 204 Yards - 2 TD's - 1 INT - 109.5 QB rating (win)

Kellen Clemens - 260 Yards - 1 TD - 2 INT's - 60.6 QB rating (loss)

Clemens has upside for sure... but I dont think he is ready to be tossed into the fire just yet... and obviously Mangini/shotty think so as well...

[joebabyny]

I like both JETS QB's just for the record... the other night though I noticed something that made Kellen's JETS debut not seem so hot...

VS the Ravens

Derek Anderson - 204 Yards - 2 TD's - 1 INT - 109.5 QB rating (win)

Kellen Clemens - 260 Yards - 1 TD - 2 INT's - 60.6 QB rating (loss)

Clemens has upside for sure... but I dont think he is ready to be tossed into the fire just yet... and obviously Mangini/shotty think so as well...

ecurb, i know you are trying to stick up for your guy when most of the board is thrashing him, but in fairness to the guy I took to the mattress yesterday, this is the same thing but from the other camp. Another comparison of stats that don't give a complete picture. All this does is perpetuate the craziness on the board. These stat lines themselves mean little on their own.

[ECURB]

ecurb, i know you are trying to stick up for your guy when most of the board is thrashing him, but in fairness to the guy I took to the mattress yesterday, this is the same thing but from the other camp. Another comparison of stats that don't give a complete picture. All this does is perpetuate the craziness on the board. These stat lines themselves mean little on their own.

Its Clemens only start...

So I figured I would compare it to a young mediocore QB to be fair.. if he cant match the performance of Anderson... he is not ready...

[Sperm Edwards]

Its Clemens only start...

So I figured I would compare it to a young mediocore QB to be fair.. if he cant match the performance of Anderson... he is not ready...

You clearly didn't see the Cleveland/Baltimore game & are spewing out stats. I watched the game in the bar I was in & Anderson mostly looked like crap. There was one 78-yard TD pass where Edwards had 15 yards of separation on everyone in the Baltimore secondary.

Even Chad could have made that throw. Well maybe not Chad, but lots of QB's anyway.

Most of the rest of the game he was garbage...or should I say the Baltimore defense made him look like garbage.

Some of this stuff you just have to watch with your eyes.

[Ghost]

This was Clemens first game starting, I think he did pretty well for his first game.

[ECURB]

You clearly didn't see the Cleveland/Baltimore game & are spewing out stats. I watched the game in the bar I was in & Anderson mostly looked like crap. There was one 78-yard TD pass where Edwards had 15 yards of separation on everyone in the Baltimore secondary.

Even Chad could have made that throw. Well maybe not Chad, but lots of QB's anyway.

Most of the rest of the game he was garbage...or should I say the Baltimore defense made him look like garbage.

Some of this stuff you just have to watch with your eyes.

To sum it up you saw a QB throw 2 TD's and win the game with a good QB rating...

[DireJet38]

Its Clemens only start...

So I figured I would compare it to a young mediocore QB to be fair.. if he cant match the performance of Anderson... he is not ready...

Ridiculous.

Was Clemens playing for the Browns?

Was Anderson playing for the Jets?

Football -- from week-to-week and team-to-team -- doesn't lend itself to this kind of equation.

You can't just plug in quarterback's stats and expect to come to any realistic conclusion.

There are far too many variables that are out of the control of the QB -- or any position player.

[Irish Jet]

Clemens done well vs The Ravens in the 4th Q(was awful besides that) but If you look at the Ravens D vs the pass, it has been ugly.

I think we may have overated his performance a bit, at the time I was thinking this Kid could be the new Brett Favre with a drive like that, now though, Im not sure.

[Sperm Edwards]

To sum it up you saw a QB throw 2 TD's and win the game with a good QB rating...

I saw a QB throw a pass that any HS QB could make. And there were 9 other completed passes the whole game. But if you want to say he was great - or even worse, that he shredded the Baltimore defense - without watching the game, then go ahead.

[ECURB]

I saw a QB throw a pass that any HS QB could make. And there were 9 other completed passes the whole game. But if you want to say he was great - or even worse, that he shredded the Baltimore defense - without watching the game, then go ahead.

IM just saying he did what Kellen Clemens couldnt... thats all...

I like what I saw from Kellen for the most part... but he is not ready..

[Sperm Edwards]

IM just saying he did what Kellen Clemens couldnt... thats all...

I like what I saw from Kellen for the most part... but he is not ready..

I'm just saying you're judging a "comparisin" without seeing the actual game you're comparing to.

First half of his first start, Clemens didn't look too impressive. Even in that half, he looked better than Chad did in a couple of games last year. In the 2nd half - particularly the 4th Q - he looked like everything we hoped he might be.

If it was Kellen Clemens in there for the Cleveland or Jacksonville or Chicago games last year, what would you have written? My guess is "He's not ready yet. Put Chad back in." & more of the like. Because the reality is Chad didn't even look like he belonged in the NFL those games. Same thing with the late Miami game other than Leon bailing him out.

But why judge a guy in 1 game - his only game - & come to a "he's not ready yet" conclusion when I can point to many more in which Pennington looked a LOT worse?

[Barton]

I'm just saying you're judging a "comparisin" without seeing the actual game you're comparing to.

First half of his first start, Clemens didn't look too impressive. Even in that half, he looked better than Chad did in a couple of games last year. In the 2nd half - particularly the 4th Q - he looked like everything we hoped he might be.

If it was Kellen Clemens in there for the Cleveland or Jacksonville or Chicago games last year, what would you have written? My guess is "He's not ready yet. Put Chad back in." & more of the like. Because the reality is Chad didn't even look like he belonged in the NFL those games. Same thing with the late Miami game other than Leon bailing him out.

But why judge a guy in 1 game - his only game - & come to a "he's not ready yet" conclusion when I can point to many more in which Pennington looked a LOT worse?

Game, set and match. STFU ecurb.

[jojodogs]

I'm just saying you're judging a "comparisin" without seeing the actual game you're comparing to.

First half of his first start, Clemens didn't look too impressive. Even in that half, he looked better than Chad did in a couple of games last year. In the 2nd half - particularly the 4th Q - he looked like everything we hoped he might be.

If it was Kellen Clemens in there for the Cleveland or Jacksonville or Chicago games last year, what would you have written? My guess is "He's not ready yet. Put Chad back in." & more of the like. Because the reality is Chad didn't even look like he belonged in the NFL those games. Same thing with the late Miami game other than Leon bailing him out.

But why judge a guy in 1 game - his only game - & come to a "he's not ready yet" conclusion when I can point to many more in which Pennington looked a LOT worse?

=Amen it still does not ring true with chad supporters that in 1 game he had 5 20 plus yard comp. vs chad 4 20 yard comp. in 3 games

[El Gringo Loco]

I'm just saying you're judging a "comparisin" without seeing the actual game you're comparing to.

First half of his first start, Clemens didn't look too impressive. Even in that half, he looked better than Chad did in a couple of games last year. In the 2nd half - particularly the 4th Q - he looked like everything we hoped he might be.

If it was Kellen Clemens in there for the Cleveland or Jacksonville or Chicago games last year, what would you have written? My guess is "He's not ready yet. Put Chad back in." & more of the like. Because the reality is Chad didn't even look like he belonged in the NFL those games. Same thing with the late Miami game other than Leon bailing him out.

But why judge a guy in 1 game - his only game - & come to a "he's not ready yet" conclusion when I can point to many more in which Pennington looked a LOT worse?

In your opinion, Would coming to the conclusion that "Kellen is ready, start him now" be based on blind hope? More like an anybody but Chad, lets roll the dice?

[124]

VS the Ravens

Derek Anderson - 204 Yards - 2 TD's - 1 INT - 109.5 QB rating (win)

Kellen Clemens - 260 Yards - 1 TD - 2 INT's - 60.6 QB rating (loss)

Kellen Clemens - In Baltimore, 1st ever start

Derek Anderson - At home in what? His 8th career start? 7th? Something like that.

[Arsis]

In your opinion, Would coming to the conclusion that "Kellen is ready, start him now" be based on blind hope? More like an anybody but Chad, lets roll the dice?

I sort of feel like that, but I think it's a step up. More like "the kid looks like he has the potential to be better than penny, which isn't saying much, so lets see what he has sooner rather that later.

[Sharrow]

I like both JETS QB's just for the record... the other night though I noticed something that made Kellen's JETS debut not seem so hot...

VS the Ravens

Derek Anderson - 204 Yards - 2 TD's - 1 INT - 109.5 QB rating (win)

Kellen Clemens - 260 Yards - 1 TD - 2 INT's - 60.6 QB rating (loss)

Clemens has upside for sure... but I dont think he is ready to be tossed into the fire just yet... and obviously Mangini/shotty think so as well...

Add the touchdown that Coles/McCareins should have gotten and that rating goes up a little.

[El Gringo Loco]

I sort of feel like that, but I think it's a step up. More like "the kid looks like he has the potential to be better than penny, which isn't saying much, so lets see what he has sooner rather that later.

Yeah I'm sorta split, that game in Buffalo was an absolute stinker, QB play has to get better than that, along with pretty much everything else.

One thing I'm sure of though, that was not CP's worst game and it certainly wasn't his best, the Jets have beaten a lot better than those scrub Jills with Chad.

It's funny, a couple weeks ago I posted that I thought KC didn't do too bad against the Ravens for his first start, of course he also didn't show any reason why should be a number one guy on an NFL team, but it's only one game, maybe he's a better player than he looked on the field.

I never understood the high praise of KC that week, and had said if Chad had a game like that where he threw 1 TD and 2 INT, half the board would be ready to kill him. Wada ya know, here we are.

[PaJetFan]

Don't worry. I'm here now to talk sense into you people.

If McCareins would have caught just one of the two TOUCHDOWN passes, OR Coles caught the one low TOUCHDOWN pass that Clemens threw and the Jets tied the game up and forced OT....none of you would have these arguments. The bottom line is that he would have had 2 TD's and 1 Interception. He made rocket throws in the fourth quarter to lead the Jets to a great comeback. Half of his throws Pennington can't make because unlike Clemens, Chad doesn't throw the ball hard OR far without winding up like a pitcher. Kellen can just rip it with a lightning quick release! So if any of the THREE drops, were catches, then we tie (and maybe win) and Kellen has a much better QB rating. ALSO, on the first interception, Coles was tripped and the refs could have called a pass interference, but didn't. Not one of Clemens' passes were thrown (or floated) directly to the other team on a 'bad' / Pennington floater throw. Period. Nuff 'Said.

[Sperm Edwards]

In your opinion, Would coming to the conclusion that "Kellen is ready, start him now" be based on blind hope? More like an anybody but Chad, lets roll the dice?

Nah, it's not that. It's just what did I see? If, from beginning to end, the guy did nothing but stand there & get sacked, I don't like it. If his throws are way off & he throws easy picks b/c his passes are floating, I don't like it. If he never challenges the defense - or if he challenges the defense & isn't even close - I don't like it.

But what I object to is purely looking at stats in one game like that. Ecurb knows perfectly well that neither interception Clemens threw were on the QB; or at least I think he does. On the first one Coles slipped & therefore the receiver wasn't where the ball ended up going. On the second one, the ball tipped off McCareins' hands. Both picks were on the receivers. He also threw 3 catchable TD passes (though the Coles one wasn't great placement, he still probably catches that 7 or 8 times out of 10) & none of them were caught. ALL while Baltimore was purely playing the pass. How many LB'ers were devoted to playing the run on that last one? If you can't remember, was Ray Lewis in front of McCareins or behind him when he caught it?

And to compare that to Derek Anderson lofting a pass to a receiver who DIDN'T drop the ball, who was open 15 yards deeper than the entire Baltimore defense, is him just being argumentative for the sake of being so. He didn't even see the game. And if he is just rambling off "Clemens threw 2 interceptions" as an argument for his deserving the bench, I question whether he saw the Jets/Ravens game either. Particularly after the two picks Pennington threw that were BOTH on the QB vs a far, far worse defense.

[El Gringo Loco]

Nah, it's not that. It's just what did I see? If, from beginning to end, the guy did nothing but stand there & get sacked, I don't like it. If his throws are way off & he throws easy picks b/c his passes are floating, I don't like it. If he never challenges the defense - or if he challenges the defense & isn't even close - I don't like it.

But what I object to is purely looking at stats in one game like that. Ecurb knows perfectly well that neither interception Clemens threw were on the QB; or at least I think he does. On the first one Coles slipped & therefore the receiver wasn't where the ball ended up going. On the second one, the ball tipped off McCareins' hands. Both picks were on the receivers. He also threw 3 catchable TD passes (though the Coles one wasn't great placement, he still probably catches that 7 or 8 times out of 10) & none of them were caught. ALL while Baltimore was purely playing the pass. How many LB'ers were devoted to playing the run on that last one? If you can't remember, was Ray Lewis in front of McCareins or behind him when he caught it?

And to compare that to Derek Anderson lofting a pass to a receiver who DIDN'T drop the ball, who was open 15 yards deeper than the entire Baltimore defense, is him just being argumentative for the sake of being so. He didn't even see the game. And if he is just rambling off "Clemens threw 2 interceptions" as an argument for his deserving the bench, I question whether he saw the Jets/Ravens game either. Particularly after the two picks Pennington threw that were BOTH on the QB vs a far, far worse defense.

Oh I remember. I have seen that play many times, from what I have seen Kellen threw the ball to the wrong guy, and I don't mean because it was JMac. Cotch wasn't covered heading toward the back right corner of the endzone from the 2 views that I've seen it at, McAlister is playing way too shallow to have made a break on the ball, he's sold out to Baker, and Cotch also had separation from Reed, he is wide open in the endzone.

KC put it where it needed to be for JMac to make a play on it though, he just missed the higher percentage shot.

[Sperm Edwards]

Oh I remember. I have seen that play many times, from what I have seen Kellen threw the ball to the wrong guy, and I don't mean because it was JMac. Cotch wasn't covered heading toward the back right corner of the endzone from the 2 views that I've seen it at, McAlister is playing way too shallow to have made a break on the ball, he's sold out to Baker, and Cotch also had separation from Reed, he is wide open in the endzone.

KC put it where it needed to be for JMac to make a play on it though, he just missed the higher percentage shot.

I'll be perfectly honest - I don't have it on tivo & the only thing I watched on the replays I saw was the ball going through JMac's hands.

I really don't know if that was his first read or not. If it was & if he thought he could get it in there where only JMac could catch it, it's not always advisable to look all around for something even better. By the time you do, you could be on the turf. I mean, early-on the complaint was that he didn't get rid of the ball. So when he does get rid of the ball the complaint is that he didn't hold the ball long enough.

But like I said, I don't have it tivo'd to replay it over again. It was the kid's first game & I've seen Chad make worse decisions without such criticisms from those who never want to see anyone else play QB for the team.

In the end, I want 2 things:

1. See the Jets win a superbowl

2. Be entertained. Football is supposed to be fun to watch.

Pennington is capable of neither.

[#27TheDominator]

I'm just saying you're judging a "comparisin" without seeing the actual game you're comparing to.

First half of his first start, Clemens didn't look too impressive. Even in that half, he looked better than Chad did in a couple of games last year. In the 2nd half - particularly the 4th Q - he looked like everything we hoped he might be.

If it was Kellen Clemens in there for the Cleveland or Jacksonville or Chicago games last year, what would you have written? My guess is "He's not ready yet. Put Chad back in." & more of the like. Because the reality is Chad didn't even look like he belonged in the NFL those games. Same thing with the late Miami game other than Leon bailing him out.

But why judge a guy in 1 game - his only game - & come to a "he's not ready yet" conclusion when I can point to many more in which Pennington looked a LOT worse?

I am writing a book because I am bored at work and the printer is down. Please feel free to scroll down. I agree 100% that we shouldn't judge Clemens on the one game. I don't necessarily think that he's not ready yet. I don't generally trust coaches, but I would trust Mangini to decide when Clemens is ready and more importantly when the best time to start him. The golden window was the Miami game. He could have given Chad another week off to heal and seen if the kid could continue his roll. Mangini didn't and I assume with good reason though it might just have been that he felt Chad was the better chance to win and the Jets needed that game for playoff contention.

I also don't agree that Clemens looked any better in the first half than Chad did in his disasters last year. Check the play-by-play, he was something like 4-8 for 43 yards with a pick and sacked twice. Eleven of those 43 came on a pass to Cotchery on third and 14. The exact yards people wouldn't want to count if Chad threw for them. The team did not cross the Ravens 30. The third quarter was just as bad. Clemens threw a few completions, but was promptly sacked twice consecutively with the team in field goal range. The following drive was three passes and a punt with the only completion the loss to Mangold. It's only in the 4th quarter that he came to life.

It's hard to judge a guy on one game, let alone a game like that. It seems that Mangini had the wraps on Clemens until the end. The team continued to try and run despite constant abject failure. OTOH, Clemens threw a nice ball, but didn't exact instill confidence until the very end which may have just been getting on a roll in garbage time and being able to keep it going.

I think people miss the point with Pennington and Mangini. Mangini, like Belichick and Pacells plays this bend but don't break D and looks to shorten the game and then try to win it in the fourth quarter. Chad is good for that. I don't think Mangini has any big problem with Chad's performance against the Bills until the last pick. We think it should have been a blow out, but Mangini would have been perfectly content to win that game 17-14. Yes Chad didn't do that, but the team was right there in the fourth. Not something to pat the guy on the back for against the Bills, but not far from what Mangini looks for either.

PS: I disagree with Sperm and others that QB rating is a useless stat, however, it is useless to use QB rating and then compare TDs, INTs, completion %, etc. The QB rating is a compilation of those stats, one pick can make a fairly large change so complaining about Clemens QB rating AND interceptions is redundant.

[Sperm Edwards]

I am writing a book because I am bored at work and the printer is down. Please feel free to scroll down. I agree 100% that we shouldn't judge Clemens on the one game. I don't necessarily think that he's not ready yet. I don't generally trust coaches, but I would trust Mangini to decide when Clemens is ready and more importantly when the best time to start him. The golden window was the Miami game. He could have given Chad another week off to heal and seen if the kid could continue his roll. Mangini didn't and I assume with good reason though it might just have been that he felt Chad was the better chance to win and the Jets needed that game for playoff contention.

I also don't agree that Clemens looked any better in the first half than Chad did in his disasters last year. Check the play-by-play, he was something like 4-8 for 43 yards with a pick and sacked twice. Eleven of those 43 came on a pass to Cotchery on third and 14. The exact yards people wouldn't want to count if Chad threw for them. The team did not cross the Ravens 30. The third quarter was just as bad. Clemens threw a few completions, but was promptly sacked twice consecutively with the team in field goal range. The following drive was three passes and a punt with the only completion the loss to Mangold. It's only in the 4th quarter that he came to life.

It's hard to judge a guy on one game, let alone a game like that. It seems that Mangini had the wraps on Clemens until the end. The team continued to try and run despite constant abject failure. OTOH, Clemens threw a nice ball, but didn't exact instill confidence until the very end which may have just been getting on a roll in garbage time and being able to keep it going.

I think people miss the point with Pennington and Mangini. Mangini, like Belichick and Pacells plays this bend but don't break D and looks to shorten the game and then try to win it in the fourth quarter. Chad is good for that. I don't think Mangini has any big problem with Chad's performance against the Bills until the last pick. We think it should have been a blow out, but Mangini would have been perfectly content to win that game 17-14. Yes Chad didn't do that, but the team was right there in the fourth. Not something to pat the guy on the back for against the Bills, but not far from what Mangini looks for either.

PS: I disagree with Sperm and others that QB rating is a useless stat, however, it is useless to use QB rating and then compare TDs, INTs, completion %, etc. The QB rating is a compilation of those stats, one pick can make a fairly large change so complaining about Clemens QB rating AND interceptions is redundant.

I think QB is an interesting stat. But it clearly favors those who attempt only high-percentage dumpoff passes. It may incorporate many of the things that make good QB's good & bad QB's bad, but the weight it places on each of those components is arbitrary. Who was it that decided that completion percentage, regardless of distance, should be the end-all of QB'ing? It also doesn't reward better QB's enough for completing DEEPER passes. It only makes a tiny blip of difference on a QB rating for a QB whose average passes are 14 yards as opposed to 10 yards. In reality, that is an ENORMOUS difference.

If someone's taking few chances downfield, to me completion percentage shouldn't be as highly weighted as for a QB who is really challenging the secondary. While it may cut down on picks, it also cuts down on the # of touchdowns & points scored in general. It's not like we've had talentless receivers here nor does it seem we are making the best use of them.

We only assumed Coles & Cotchery to be short-yardage WR's & their "deep" routes to have a limit of 15 yards or so b/c that's what route they're running or that's when Chad feels comfortable throwing the ball. They just have to be WAY too open for him to throw it down there. That's great for percentages & QB ratings, but if you wait for 5+ yards of separation downfield all the time, you'll end up with what we see all too often: 1-2 attempts per game. Every single opposing coach is not SO friggin' stupid, & after enough times with the same thing over & over, realizes that one deep pass means it's pretty damned unlikely Chad's going deep again anytime soon.

So while it's an interesting stat, I don't think it's justification for starting or sitting a player. In Baltimore, had Coles not slipped, there would be no first-half int. Had JMac caught even ONE of the two passes that hit his friggin' hands, there would be no 2nd pick. It doesn't mean Clemens threw the ball any worse than if the receivers hadn't made blunders, but his resulting QB rating suggests just that.

[Kentucky Jet]

I like both JETS QB's just for the record... the other night though I noticed something that made Kellen's JETS debut not seem so hot...

VS the Ravens

Derek Anderson - 204 Yards - 2 TD's - 1 INT - 109.5 QB rating (win)

Kellen Clemens - 260 Yards - 1 TD - 2 INT's - 60.6 QB rating (loss)

Clemens has upside for sure... but I dont think he is ready to be tossed into the fire just yet... and obviously Mangini/shotty think so as well...

What you conveniently chose NOT to say is that ANDERSON has much more experience then Kellen had prior to facing Baltimore and he has a GREAT TE and WR( Braylon Edwards who is able to streatch the field constantly and make circus catches. ( Coth can make the catches but is not nearly as fast as Edwards. Anderson also has an OC that lets him play the entire play book and take chances. PLUS he has a superior pass blocking OL.

Stats suck! TRENT GREEN had great stats against us and lost! CHADWICK had 15 straight completions against BUFFALO and managed to lose the game, to the last rated defense ,that was playing its third string CBs. Do you find that alarming? I didn't think so. Be a fan of PENNINGTON's but be fair when you attempt to be critical of his understudy. Do it openly and honestly! We all know that you are a fan of CHADWICK's. Fine stick up for the man but be realistic, for a change!

We lost as a TEAM and we will win as a TEAM. CHADWICK was just as GUILTY as the next guy for that loss. Get over it! Face facts for a change. CHADWICK usually rebounds with a decent to good game after a loss like that. We can beat the GIANTS. Changes and adjustments must be made but I urge you to be a JETS fan first, last and always! HERO worship sucks!

Then there is the matter of FACT that Kellen started his first game in BALTIMORE's home stadium while Anderson was at home against that same team.

You were rather obvious in fogetting to mention that COLES slipped on a Kellen pass attempt and that resulted in one of those two INTS. ( I'd venture to say that you cheered when that happened)

Statistics don't lie but............use statistics!

According to you, KELLEN will never be ready to play because you do not want him to play! A kid QB like Anderson, Cutler, Leinart, Young, Brady( at that time) needs playing time to gain experience, so the game SLOWS down. Gee, even the great one, Sir. Chadwick needed playing time when he first got here. He got it in preseason games. HERM was afraid to use him and openly said: He'll never be great until he stops thinking so much! HERM nailed that one, didn't he? Vinny got hurt and the kid QB came in and did nicely( not great, as you would have us believe) until he met a strong defense in the playoffs( 2002), that showed the NFL how to beat CHADWICK. He has not been the same since!

When the time comes to enter the Hall of Fame, will you help design the BUST?

[JetCane]

I am writing a book because I am bored at work and the printer is down. Please feel free to scroll down. I agree 100% that we shouldn't judge Clemens on the one game. I don't necessarily think that he's not ready yet. I don't generally trust coaches, but I would trust Mangini to decide when Clemens is ready and more importantly when the best time to start him. The golden window was the Miami game. He could have given Chad another week off to heal and seen if the kid could continue his roll. Mangini didn't and I assume with good reason though it might just have been that he felt Chad was the better chance to win and the Jets needed that game for playoff contention.

I also don't agree that Clemens looked any better in the first half than Chad did in his disasters last year. Check the play-by-play, he was something like 4-8 for 43 yards with a pick and sacked twice. Eleven of those 43 came on a pass to Cotchery on third and 14. The exact yards people wouldn't want to count if Chad threw for them. The team did not cross the Ravens 30. The third quarter was just as bad. Clemens threw a few completions, but was promptly sacked twice consecutively with the team in field goal range. The following drive was three passes and a punt with the only completion the loss to Mangold. It's only in the 4th quarter that he came to life.

It's hard to judge a guy on one game, let alone a game like that. It seems that Mangini had the wraps on Clemens until the end. The team continued to try and run despite constant abject failure. OTOH, Clemens threw a nice ball, but didn't exact instill confidence until the very end which may have just been getting on a roll in garbage time and being able to keep it going.

I think people miss the point with Pennington and Mangini. Mangini, like Belichick and Pacells plays this bend but don't break D and looks to shorten the game and then try to win it in the fourth quarter. Chad is good for that. I don't think Mangini has any big problem with Chad's performance against the Bills until the last pick. We think it should have been a blow out, but Mangini would have been perfectly content to win that game 17-14. Yes Chad didn't do that, but the team was right there in the fourth. Not something to pat the guy on the back for against the Bills, but not far from what Mangini looks for either.

PS: I disagree with Sperm and others that QB rating is a useless stat, however, it is useless to use QB rating and then compare TDs, INTs, completion %, etc. The QB rating is a compilation of those stats, one pick can make a fairly large change so complaining about Clemens QB rating AND interceptions is redundant.

You and I are a few of the posters who arent caught up in blind support for EITHER continuing with CP or benching him in favor of Clemens. Kind of a middle ground/defer to the CS position.

I dont get all wrapped up in the QB rating stat, either. There are too many variables involved to look at it as gospel. It may be an indication of some success, and a poor QB rating may be an indication of not doing well, but I take it for what it is.

It is hard to judge a guy on one game, but I will throw this out there for anyone who thinks that playing Clemens will automatically open up the running game. Here are TJ's stats for the Ravens game:

T. Jones 24-67

[Sperm Edwards]

You and I are a few of the posters who arent caught up in blind support for EITHER continuing with CP or benching him in favor of Clemens. Kind of a middle ground/defer to the CS position.

I dont get all wrapped up in the QB rating stat, either. There are too many variables involved to look at it as gospel. It may be an indication of some success, and a poor QB rating may be an indication of not doing well, but I take it for what it is.

It is hard to judge a guy on one game, but I will throw this out there for anyone who thinks that playing Clemens will automatically open up the running game. Here are TJ's stats for the Ravens game:

T. Jones 24-67

I don't think that anyone thinks that putting Clemens in will - POOF!! - create insta-running-game. If some are, they're kidding themselves. But Baltimore's front 4 (front 7 really) is a tough gauge & not really comparable to Miami's or Buffalo's.

If Clemens is in there for the 2nd Buffalo game then we'll see an apples & apples comparison.

[#27TheDominator]

I think QB is an interesting stat. But it clearly favors those who attempt only high-percentage dumpoff passes. It may incorporate many of the things that make good QB's good & bad QB's bad, but the weight it places on each of those components is arbitrary. Who was it that decided that completion percentage, regardless of distance, should be the end-all of QB'ing? It also doesn't reward better QB's enough for completing DEEPER passes. It only makes a tiny blip of difference on a QB rating for a QB whose average passes are 14 yards as opposed to 10 yards. In reality, that is an ENORMOUS difference.

If someone's taking few chances downfield, to me completion percentage shouldn't be as highly weighted as for a QB who is really challenging the secondary. While it may cut down on picks, it also cuts down on the # of touchdowns & points scored in general. It's not like we've had talentless receivers here nor does it seem we are making the best use of them.

We only assumed Coles & Cotchery to be short-yardage WR's & their "deep" routes to have a limit of 15 yards or so b/c that's what route they're running or that's when Chad feels comfortable throwing the ball. They just have to be WAY too open for him to throw it down there. That's great for percentages & QB ratings, but if you wait for 5+ yards of separation downfield all the time, you'll end up with what we see all too often: 1-2 attempts per game. Every single opposing coach is not SO friggin' stupid, & after enough times with the same thing over & over, realizes that one deep pass means it's pretty damned unlikely Chad's going deep again anytime soon.

So while it's an interesting stat, I don't think it's justification for starting or sitting a player. In Baltimore, had Coles not slipped, there would be no first-half int. Had JMac caught even ONE of the two passes that hit his friggin' hands, there would be no 2nd pick. It doesn't mean Clemens threw the ball any worse than if the receivers hadn't made blunders, but his resulting QB rating suggests just that.

I haven't checked how the actual percentages are weighted, but I think TDs v. INTs are probably the biggest difference in QB rating. Without looking it up, I think that Montana would be the "king of QB rating" that's because he managed a passing game that scored, didn't make mistakes and continually completed the ball to keep the chains moving. I think completion percentage is pretty valuable. I don't think heaving deep incompletions to stretch the defense is that valuable a comodity. Do you hear me Jeff George and Kerry Collins?

To me the main problem is that it's a stat meant to add up all the other stats, so you can't compare that AND then the other stats too. You can however calculate what should have been. Like taking off an INT from Clemens performance and/or adding a TD and yardage or adding the Baker (non)TD and yardage to Chad's piss poor performance in Cleaveland last year.

HERM was afraid to use him and openly said: He'll never be great until he stops thinking so much! HERM nailed that one, didn't he? Vinny got hurt and the kid QB came in and did nicely( not great, as you would have us believe) until he met a strong defense in the playoffs( 2002), that showed the NFL how to beat CHADWICK. He has not been the same since!

When the time comes to enter the Hall of Fame, will you help design the BUST?

Don't disagree with most of what you wrote, but Herm was also afraid to use Cotchery and Lamont Jordan. Football is a young man's game and Herm was a moron with younger players. Mangini hasn't shown such an affinity for continuing to use old scrubs. If he had maybe we'd have a real player at LG this year. Also, Chad's '02 was a hell of a lot better than "nice".

You and I are a few of the posters who arent caught up in blind support for EITHER continuing with CP or benching him in favor of Clemens. Kind of a middle ground/defer to the CS position.

I dont get all wrapped up in the QB rating stat, either. There are too many variables involved to look at it as gospel. It may be an indication of some success, and a poor QB rating may be an indication of not doing well, but I take it for what it is.

It is hard to judge a guy on one game, but I will throw this out there for anyone who thinks that playing Clemens will automatically open up the running game. Here are TJ's stats for the Ravens game:

T. Jones 24-67

Yep, just because I don't think the coaching staff actually MUST start Clemens Sunday I am lumped in with the ecurb and irish jets of the world. IMO, Pennington is not near as bad as many of you think. Doesn't mean Clemens can't be better, can't make a difference or shouldn't start, but I've seen too many teams with truly bad QBs and I don't think Pennington is one. Doesn't matter how bad is arm is.

I don't think that anyone thinks that putting Clemens in will - POOF!! - create insta-running-game. If some are, they're kidding themselves. But Baltimore's front 4 (front 7 really) is a tough gauge & not really comparable to Miami's or Buffalo's.

If Clemens is in there for the 2nd Buffalo game then we'll see an apples & apples comparison.

There are plenty of people on here that are kidding themselves about the Jets running game.

FWIW, I don't think Buffalo in the Meadowlands is an apples for apples comparison with Buffalo in Orchard Park. Besides, either way it will only be one game, right?

[PFSIKH]

I like both JETS QB's just for the record... the other night though I noticed something that made Kellen's JETS debut not seem so hot...

VS the Ravens

Derek Anderson - 204 Yards - 2 TD's - 1 INT - 109.5 QB rating (win)

Kellen Clemens - 260 Yards - 1 TD - 2 INT's - 60.6 QB rating (loss)

Clemens has upside for sure... but I dont think he is ready to be tossed into the fire just yet... and obviously Mangini/shotty think so as well...

Career passes before that start:

Clemens: 1

Anderson: 215

That and it was his second time playing the Ravens might have had something to do with it.