Is Clemens Really The One?

[Greenbaumenom]

I was thinking tonight, if Kellen was so great, why isnt this team starting him? I understand there is a building process as far as QB progression, but the way Chad is playing...Kellen should be in. What does Mangini and Schotty see in him that we dont?

[Smizzy]

7z4Fek2rCmQ

Yes he is.

[Thai Jet]

I was thinking tonight, if Kellen was so great, why isnt this team starting him? I understand there is a building process as far as QB progression, but the way Chad is playing...Kellen should be in. What does Mangini and Schotty see in him that we dont?

I know that during training camp all the beat writers said Chad was light years ahead of anyone else in camp. I'll support who ever the CS decides to start. They know more than any of us do. (I hope )

[Arsis]

[serphnx]

Well this is the same FO that blew a 3rd rounder on Schlegel, and traded a 2nd for TJ. It also used the #4 overall on Brick, not a terrible pick but not exactly earth shattering. Clemens at this point better be closer to Brick than Schlegel quality, or this FO is in some serious trouble. Chances are Clemens is Schlegel though. Helen "The Hobbit" Clemens was not a good pick.

[Thai Jet]

Well this is the same FO that blew a 3rd rounder on Schlegel, and traded a 2nd for TJ. It also used the #4 overall on Brick, not a terrible pick but not exactly earth shattering. Clemens at this point better be closer to Brick than Schlegel quality, or this FO is in some serious trouble. Chances are Clemens is Schlegel though. Helen "The Hobbit" Clemens was not a good pick.

I love the draft and that year , even though there were more "ranked" QB's (Leinart, Cutler etc.) coming out I remember Jaworski saying Clemens ,in his opinion, was the best of the bunch. Hope he was right. On the other hand Clemens came out of nowhere during the final weeks before the draft. One of the ever popular "rocketing up the draft board" players we see every year. D'Rob was another such "rocket" several years before that. We have seen how that turned out.

[#27TheDominator]

Well this is the same FO that blew a 3rd rounder on Schlegel, and traded a 2nd for TJ. It also used the #4 overall on Brick, not a terrible pick but not exactly earth shattering. Clemens at this point better be closer to Brick than Schlegel quality, or this FO is in some serious trouble. Chances are Clemens is Schlegel though. Helen "The Hobbit" Clemens was not a good pick.

Peter North? What makes you say that he's not a good pick? I mean other than the fact that he's short. I don't think we have a great idea either way. He looked like **** for most of the Ravens game, but if he's anything like that fourth quarter we're golden.

I love the draft and that year , even though there were more "ranked" QB's (Leinart, Cutler etc.) coming out I remember Jaworski saying Clemens ,in his opinion, was the best of the bunch. Hope he was right. On the other hand Clemens came out of nowhere during the final weeks before the draft. One of the ever popular "rocketing up the draft board" players we see every year. D'Rob was another such "rocket" several years before that. We have seen how that turned out.

Jaworski is an idiot. My father told me all about Jaworski on draft day and then throughout the season he would randomly talk up whichever rookie qb he wanted. I saw him extol the virtues of Leinart, Young and Cutler at various times. I remember quite specifically him saying that in his mind Cutler was the class of the '04 draft at qb.

I don't think Clemens rocketed up the draft charts. He was a question mark because of his injury. I don't think he was able to give a full workout at combine time, so of course nobody was rating him too highly until he worked out. He wasn't exactly Vernon Davis or Chris Henry (RB) pre-draft. The real problem with the pick is that the Jets didn't know if Pennington was coming back, so they may have reached. Picking from need is where you often end up with crap.

[Thai Jet]

Peter North? What makes you say that he's not a good pick? I mean other than the fact that he's short. I don't think we have a great idea either way. He looked like **** for most of the Ravens game, but if he's anything like that fourth quarter we're golden.

Jaworski is an idiot. My father told me all about Jaworski on draft day and then throughout the season he would randomly talk up whichever rookie qb he wanted. I saw him extol the virtues of Leinart, Young and Cutler at various times. I remember quite specifically him saying that in his mind Cutler was the class of the '04 draft at qb.

I don't think Clemens rocketed up the draft charts. He was a question mark because of his injury. I don't think he was able to give a full workout at combine time, so of course nobody was rating him too highly until he worked out. He wasn't exactly Vernon Davis or Chris Henry (RB) pre-draft. The real problem with the pick is that the Jets didn't know if Pennington was coming back, so they may have reached. Picking from need is where you often end up with crap.

Originally Clemens was projected to go in the 4-6th rounds perhaps because of his injury. Supposedly the scouts started watching the early Oregon games in which Clemens played and then he started to rise up the draft boards. I hate when that happens and it happens every year to certain players. Have they played any additional games since January? No. As Coach Parcells used to say 'show me game tapes". That's the key. How did prospect X play during actual games? Enough of the controlled combine enviroment already !

[#27TheDominator]

Originally Clemens was projected to go in the 4-6th rounds perhaps because of his injury. Supposedly the scouts started watching the early Oregon games in which Clemens played and then he started to rise up the draft boards. I hate when that happens and it happens every year to certain players. Have they played any additional games since January? No. As Coach Parcells used to say 'show me game tapes". That's the key. How did prospect X play during actual games? Enough of the controlled combine enviroment already !

First of all, you seem to be claiming that Clemens stock rose because of game films and then complaining that they should use game films. IIRC, DRob's stock rose in great part because of game film study where he seemed to be drawing a huge amount of double teams which offset what seemed to be a relative lack of production. They didn't play any games since January, but maybe the scouts didn't view every game as closely as they should have. There is a hell of a lot more to picking players than scouting the top of the NCAA charts.

The combine isn't the be all, end all of scouting, but if you don't think a controlled environment is necessary you're nuts. First of all, if you check the 40 times from pro day you will see incredible differences. Where the difference of a tenth or two is so important, it's best to have everybody running on the same track in the same weather. Second of all without using these criteria and only looking at game tapes you will end up drafting rejects like Maurice Clarrett 4.85 and Peter Warrick 4.65 and thinking that you have Herschel Walker and Tim Brown. Good scouting takes into account physical skills, ability to use them during games and the coaching staff's ability to use those physical skills and abilities. It's a science AND an art.

[Sperm Edwards]

First of all, you seem to be claiming that Clemens stock rose because of game films and then complaining that they should use game films. IIRC, DRob's stock rose in great part because of game film study where he seemed to be drawing a huge amount of double teams which offset what seemed to be a relative lack of production. They didn't play any games since January, but maybe the scouts didn't view every game as closely as they should have. There is a hell of a lot more to picking players than scouting the top of the NCAA charts.

The combine isn't the be all, end all of scouting, but if you don't think a controlled environment is necessary you're nuts. First of all, if you check the 40 times from pro day you will see incredible differences. Where the difference of a tenth or two is so important, it's best to have everybody running on the same track in the same weather. Second of all without using these criteria and only looking at game tapes you will end up drafting rejects like Maurice Clarrett 4.85 and Peter Warrick 4.65 and thinking that you have Herschel Walker and Tim Brown. Good scouting takes into account physical skills, ability to use them during games and the coaching staff's ability to use those physical skills and abilities. It's a science AND an art.

How long have you been in Milan now, that you would call NFL scouting "art"?

[#27TheDominator]

How long have you been in Milan now, that you would call NFL scouting "art"?

Good scouting is an art. Not the **** practiced by these monkeys. Compared to the rest of Italy, Milan is not that big on art. Mostly fashion and smoking and fashionable smoking. Preferably by a hot chick on a motorini with five inch heels.

[JonEJet]

7z4Fek2rCmQ

Yes he is.

Didn't you watch 3/4 of the Baltimore game? Or are you too much of a CHad hater to let reality get in the way of your hate?

Unfortunately I don't think he is. I certainly hope he is the answer, I don't see it thusfar

If this season gets away from us even more, I thnk we'll all get to see, to know for sure

[afosomf]

Didn't you watch 3/4 of the Baltimore game? Or are you too much of a CHad hater to let reality get in the way of your hate?

Unfortunately I don't think he is. I certainly hope he is the answer, I don't see it thusfar

If this season gets away from us even more, I thnk we'll all get to see, to know for sure

JonE- We do know Penne is not the one..that should be clear to everyone

We all have no clue about KC, the coaching staff needs to play him to see

if has what it takes..otherwise the team may need to draft another QB

Parcells F'd up by not starting Romo sooner, he held on to Drew way too long

[Sperm Edwards]

Good scouting is an art. Not the **** practiced by these monkeys. Compared to the rest of Italy, Milan is not that big on art. Mostly fashion and smoking and fashionable smoking. Preferably by a hot chick on a motorini with five inch heels.

[JetCane]

Brett Ratliff will emerge as the #2 next year. You heard it here first.

[#27TheDominator]

Brett Ratliff will emerge as the #2 next year. You heard it here first.

You are number six.

[NY JETS 29]

It's an interesting question. Last year in camp Clemens was obviously light years away from being a starting Qb, but as we've seen what a year watching can do for you. He has a great camp and preseason and was impressive in week 2 when the leash was taken off of him. From what you hear around the team and the reporters that cover them is that Clemens is a gamer. Maybe Mangini isn't willing to pull the plug on chad yet because of the practices he's having leading up to sunday, but i dont know. If another year on the sidelines will benefit Clemens then I'm for that, can he step in right now and spark this team and be a NFL ready QB, I dont know, maybe. This is a interesting topic, not just because of the recent play of chad, but because why the trigger hasnt been pulled yet for clemens to start now when alot of analyst had him to be the most nfl ready qb in last years draft class. You start to wonder does the staff really think Chad is our best option right now? and if so then what's that say about Clemens now.

[JetCane]

You are number six.

Oh well that sucks LOL!

But I did have him making the team or ps this summer.

[#27TheDominator]

Oh well that sucks LOL!

But I did have him making the team or ps this summer.

NO! NO! NO! The correct response is:

I am not a number! I am free man!

[JetCane]

NO! NO! NO! The correct response is:

I am not a number! I am free man!

But I am a damn number.

I have this briefcase chained to my arm, a metrocard, and a Tax ID#.

I am only free on weekends during football season, during which time I have reason to drink, lose my voice, pop a jello shot or two, and throw things at the TV.

[Barton]

Nobody knows until he gets to play. Bottom line.

[KSJets]

Clemens can't be too bright....he kept throwing it to JMAC against the Ravens

[#27TheDominator]

But I am a damn number.

I have this briefcase chained to my arm, a metrocard, and a Tax ID#.

I am only free on weekends during football season, during which time I have reason to drink, lose my voice, pop a jello shot or two, and throw things at the TV.

If you're going to throw things at the television, jello is a good choice. That is the cold cruel hand of bad experience talking.

[drago]

First of all, you seem to be claiming that Clemens stock rose because of game films and then complaining that they should use game films. IIRC, DRob's stock rose in great part because of game film study where he seemed to be drawing a huge amount of double teams which offset what seemed to be a relative lack of production. They didn't play any games since January, but maybe the scouts didn't view every game as closely as they should have. There is a hell of a lot more to picking players than scouting the top of the NCAA charts.

The combine isn't the be all, end all of scouting, but if you don't think a controlled environment is necessary you're nuts. First of all, if you check the 40 times from pro day you will see incredible differences. Where the difference of a tenth or two is so important, it's best to have everybody running on the same track in the same weather. Second of all without using these criteria and only looking at game tapes you will end up drafting rejects like Maurice Clarrett 4.85 and Peter Warrick 4.65 and thinking that you have Herschel Walker and Tim Brown. Good scouting takes into account physical skills, ability to use them during games and the coaching staff's ability to use those physical skills and abilities. It's a science AND an art.

the 40 time is the most overrated time in the screening process. Give me a guy that can excell in the cone drill and then you will know if you have someone that can make a guy miss just enough to get an extra 3 yards. Or a guy that can giveyou serious seperation on an out route (which, BTW, they will do a lot more of than a straight 'go' route).

I couldn't agree more than with what parcells says. Especially if you can find film of them excelling when the chips are down.

[#27TheDominator]

the 40 time is the most overrated time in the screening process. Give me a guy that can excell in the cone drill and then you will know if you have someone that can make a guy miss just enough to get an extra 3 yards. Or a guy that can giveyou serious seperation on an out route (which, BTW, they will do a lot more of than a straight 'go' route).

I couldn't agree more than with what parcells says. Especially if you can find film of them excelling when the chips are down.

Eh. First of all, Bill Parcells is/was far from a master talent evaluator. If he was good at scouting anything it was assistant coaches. You may be right about the 40, but "excelling when the chips are down" is a hell of a lot easier when you are bigger, stronger and faster than the next guy. Probably every player in D1 excelled when the chips were down in high school. Not to mention how much easier it is depending on the talent around you. Plenty of these superstars roll into the NFL and the speed and power overwhelm them and they are gone in no time.

Raw speed, however you want to measure it-40 cone drill, whatever is more important than just for a wr fly. How about for LBs filling holes or beating backs to the sidelines. For wr speed is even an issue in blocking. It's not the only issue, but it's certainly a big one.

[DMaynard]

Nobody knows until he gets to play. Bottom line.

Exactly. I am sure Brady looked very good in training camp, but even the great Belichick did not start him until he had too when Bledsoe got hurt. The evaluation of no other position is impacted by real action like the QB position.

[drago]

Eh. First of all, Bill Parcells is/was far from a master talent evaluator. If he was good at scouting anything it was assistant coaches. You may be right about the 40, but "excelling when the chips are down" is a hell of a lot easier when you are bigger, stronger and faster than the next guy. Probably every player in D1 excelled when the chips were down in high school. Not to mention how much easier it is depending on the talent around you. Plenty of these superstars roll into the NFL and the speed and power overwhelm them and they are gone in no time.

Raw speed, however you want to measure it-40 cone drill, whatever is more important than just for a wr fly. How about for LBs filling holes or beating backs to the sidelines. For wr speed is even an issue in blocking. It's not the only issue, but it's certainly a big one.

I like your post, good refutes...damn lawyer.

what i mean about when the chips are down is..for instance...

the rose bowl, leinart, bush, justice, and countless other first class talent against Texas' two first round talent players, huff, and Young. Young put that team on his back and willed them to victory. I am not a huge Young fan, but after that game i was fairly certain he is the QB you want on your team going into the fourth quarter, regardless of the situation. Its games like that that prove, at least to me, if you have a winner.

Its also games like that that made me think leinart is not even the next Mark Brunell.

As WR's go, i don't see why it is so difficult to find a good one. If you look at most of the good WR's in the league they are all smart, hard working, and very athletic. The ones that seem to struggle do not have high work ethic, but might still have the athletic ability. J-Cotch is a perfect example of a Receiver who should have been rated higher, he's big, strong, fast, smart, tremendous desire to succeed. Some of these scouts just baffle me in their assesments of guys like Mike Williams.

[afosomf]

I like your post, good refutes...damn lawyer.

what i mean about when the chips are down is..for instance...

the rose bowl, leinart, bush, justice, and countless other first class talent against Texas' two first round talent players, huff, and Young. Young put that team on his back and willed them to victory. I am not a huge Young fan, but after that game i was fairly certain he is the QB you want on your team going into the fourth quarter, regardless of the situation. Its games like that that prove, at least to me, if you have a winner.

Its also games like that that made me think leinart is not even the next Mark Brunell.

As WR's go, i don't see why it is so difficult to find a good one. If you look at most of the good WR's in the league they are all smart, hard working, and very athletic. The ones that seem to struggle do not have high work ethic, but might still have the athletic ability. J-Cotch is a perfect example of a Receiver who should have been rated higher, he's big, strong, fast, smart, tremendous desire to succeed. Some of these scouts just baffle me in their assesments of guys like Mike Williams.

mike williams made some of the most amazing catches i have ever seen , unfortunatly he has no heart!!! Tough to measure desire

[drago]

mike williams made some of the most amazing catches i have ever seen , unfortunatly he has no heart!!! Tough to measure desire

i don't think it is. watch how he plays when the ball isn't coming to him, does he block hard on every snap, is he a film room junky, does he work hard in aspects of his life that don't pertain to football?

You can get a good grasp of someone's character within an hour of speaking to them. I think most would agree with that.

Yet somehow detroit still takes him based on pure athletiscm, and act surprised when he is over matched when the corners are as athletic as he is, and are equally surprised when he fails.

[Irish Jet]

Knowing the Jets luck he'll be great, Im talking Brady/Manning great...

....This is of course before the injury.

[Arsis]

He is the one!

[afosomf]

i don't think it is. watch how he plays when the ball isn't coming to him, does he block hard on every snap, is he a film room junky, does he work hard in aspects of his life that don't pertain to football?

You can get a good grasp of someone's character within an hour of speaking to them. I think most would agree with that.

Yet somehow detroit still takes him based on pure athletiscm, and act surprised when he is over matched when the corners are as athletic as he is, and are equally surprised when he fails.

Much like the randy moss pick without the burning speed

Detroit rolled the dice and lost, Minn rolled the dice and won at least for a few years

[#27TheDominator]

I like your post, good refutes...damn lawyer.

what i mean about when the chips are down is..for instance...

the rose bowl, leinart, bush, justice, and countless other first class talent against Texas' two first round talent players, huff, and Young. Young put that team on his back and willed them to victory. I am not a huge Young fan, but after that game i was fairly certain he is the QB you want on your team going into the fourth quarter, regardless of the situation. Its games like that that prove, at least to me, if you have a winner.

Its also games like that that made me think leinart is not even the next Mark Brunell.

As WR's go, i don't see why it is so difficult to find a good one. If you look at most of the good WR's in the league they are all smart, hard working, and very athletic. The ones that seem to struggle do not have high work ethic, but might still have the athletic ability. J-Cotch is a perfect example of a Receiver who should have been rated higher, he's big, strong, fast, smart, tremendous desire to succeed. Some of these scouts just baffle me in their assesments of guys like Mike Williams.

Thanks. I can appreciate your issues with JUST basing draft picks on measureables, like Chris Henry (the RB). The guy never even hit 3.5 ypc in college. We'll see if he turns out. It's all a crap shoot. You just try to make the most educated decision you can. Do you honestly think Vince Young is going to be a great qb? He's not my idea of the ideal passer. By your criteria nobody would have picked Brady. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have Brady than Young.

Much like the randy moss pick without the burning speed

Detroit rolled the dice and lost, Minn rolled the dice and won at least for a few years

Good point. I was going to say that it sounded like Drago was describing Moss when he was badmouthing Mike Williams.

[ECURB]

Lets hope he is the one!

[bobbyjet69]

You are number six.

Penny gets traded by week six (trade deadline) to Carolina for a 2 and 4 pick this year!!