Shotty's System or Sanchez's play...?

[Jetscode1]

I disagree, you do not take a QB in top 5 pick if his strength is throwing on the run. it also takes away 1/2 the field and with his accuracy issues, just leads to more

Ints. Jets had no running game, greene is not an everydown back. I also do not have a problem going empty set as every good team in NFL team does it.

Rules are geared to passing game. Been watching Steelers and ravens go emptyset all the time. I also believe a new OC cant help him. he is afraid of staying in pocket, never seen a QB backpedal so much. It is too bad we paid $50M for this jalopy. QB's make OC's. Contrary to what most fans believe cavanaugh and schott are sharp, Schott is a EZ target, fact is he had a sh*tty QB go to AFC Title game twice in a row, The Defense was a major reason during the first year, but has since declined to average. The 7th leading def is a joke. Doesnt pass eye test and has sucked in many spurts. 4 more years of hell comin imo

This is not Joe Gibbs were talking about...the D was the dominant unit...hoping Sanchez and the O could muster 20 points so the game was a contest...he may look like David Carr now but the Jets coaching staff own the major portion of this disastrous season.

[JohnnyHector]

I wanted him to sit for a few years becayse if it, as did plenty if others .. Not saying that was the right call in retrospect (who knows) , just saying it was discussed a lot

Clippys are for skippys.

[KSJets]

Thats disgusting.

Eli had like 30 TO's last year

[afosomf]

This is not Joe Gibbs were talking about...the D was the dominant unit...hoping Sanchez and the O could muster 20 points so the game was a contest...he may look like David Carr now but the Jets coaching staff own the major portion of this disastrous season.

It is very clear that schott gets no credit for any of the wins and all of the blame for the losses. Schott should have tackled Cruzzzzzzzzzzz and Tebow ,he had the angle on both u know

[Jetscode1]

It is very clear that schott gets no credit for any of the wins and all of the blame for the losses. Schott should have tackled Cruzzzzzzzzzzz and Tebow ,he had the angle on both u know

Its very clear that many want to overlook that limitations of the current coaching staff and some players...Never said the Schitt did not deserve some credit for the wins...just saying his unit has underperformed the league in his tenure...if you enjoy watching this offense your taste in beauty leaves something to be desired.

[Matt39]

I hate this throw on the run argument. If you need your starting QB to throw on the run he shouldnt be playing. That's high school stuff.

[Skeet Ulrich]

Pete Carroll did. Said he could use a year more college time.

Only because his options for the 2009 season were Aaron Corp and a freshman Matt Barkley. Carroll was only looking out for #1.

[PFSIKH]

Apples and oranges...usually implies a false analogy...I'd argue that...draft status only sets expectations for the players and the fans...sometimes the organizational structure plays a part...look at Rodgers...first round pick but diminished expectations because he's playing behind Favre and has the opportunity to learn and feed the fire of a desire to play...could make a similar case with your boy Brady...although he was obviously ready when the call came...

The Jets...and many other teams looking to change the fortunes...often over-dramatize the expectation level in order to drive sales/interest...Sanchez is now in a state of coulda/woulda/shoulda...adversity has that affect...the next several months will tell us a lot about the character of this young man...is he capable of turning it arund ala Eli Manning....or is he the next Rex Grossman...

I have no idea...but the question is why I still follow the Jets!

No, "apples and oranges" mean you are comparing two different situations.

As the 5th pick in the draft and a QB to boot, Sanchez had huge expectations. I agree it is over dramatized for Sanchez because he was a high first round pick.

That is my point about Flynn. If you said 3 years into his career, a 7th round pick would have 9000+ yards and 55 TDs-51 INTs. I think you would be happy with his potential.

However, Sanchez was the 5th pick and fans expect him to walk on water.

[Jets62]

No such thing as bad student? Try teaching HS in Camden, many bad student! Sanchez just isn't a bad student, he's a bad QB. Is there anybody who thinks if Sanchez was on Green Bay, Saints, or Patriots that he would put up the same kind of numbers as Brees,Brady ,or Rodgers? Yes Shotty's system sucks, but so does Sanchez and the sooner upper mangmt figures this out the Jets could put a much better product on the field.

[afosomf]

Its very clear that many want to overlook that limitations of the current coaching staff and some players...Never said the Schitt did not deserve some credit for the wins...just saying his unit has underperformed the league in his tenure...if you enjoy watching this offense your taste in beauty leaves something to be desired.

Many fans i know refuse to give him any credit. As far as Offense goes,I prefer My QB not to look like a monkey trying to eff a football. Sorry Bill Walsh cant help this kid.

[JohnnyHector]

Its very clear that many want to overlook that limitations of the current coaching staff and some players...Never said the Schitt did not deserve some credit for the wins...just saying his unit has underperformed the league in his tenure...if you enjoy watching this offense your taste in beauty leaves something to be desired.

Even if Schottenheimer is in the bottom third of OC's in the league, his impact on the offense is 1/1000th of Sanchez's.

This isn't someone teaching 5-year olds the fundamentals of the game. These guys have played enough football where the delta between an average or below-average OC and a good one isn't nearly as large as the one between QB's of the same differing skill-levels.

[Jetscode1]

Many fans i know refuse to give him any credit. As far as Offense goes,I prefer My QB not to look like a monkey trying to eff a football. Sorry Bill Walsh cant help this kid.

Maybe, maybe not...Alex Smith looked decent this year...what changed?

[Jetscode1]

Even if Schottenheimer is in the bottom third of OC's in the league, his impact on the offense is 1/1000th of Sanchez's.

This isn't someone teaching 5-year olds the fundamentals of the game. These guys have played enough football where the delta between an average or below-average OC and a good one isn't nearly as large as the one between QB's of the same differing skill-levels.

I'm not arguing the math exponentials...I'm saying the Jets organizational structure did not make it easy for him to succeed and yet he's had moments and I would argue if they were both to leave the game of football tomorrow Mark Sanchez QB highlights would exceed those of Brian Schittenheimer the OC.

[afosomf]

Maybe, maybe not...Alex Smith looked decent this year...what changed?

what changed? SF Def is top rated Def in NFL, asking Smith to do very little, problem is they will not be able to outscore GB or NO, why? A Smith. End goal is winning

SB not to make playoffs. Flynn in SF would be a great fit and legit SB threat with that D

[GreenBeans]

I love absolutes, they always make so much sense. All one way or all the other is pretty much sports radio garbage - it's not reality. Being "controversial" is not talking football, it's taking the easy way out and just taking a side.

That said, please tell me why rolling a quarterback out to play to a strength and get said quarterback into a little rhythm is a bad thing? Seems like John Elway and Steve Young both benefited from that strategy a bunch back in their time, no?

And just to put this out there, I'm not a Sanchez apologist, I just don't think the Jets are doing anything to make him better with the current offensive philosophy. Help the kid, help the team, and figure out if he's the answer in the process. Seems to make sense, no?

[Jetscode1]

what changed? SF Def is top rated Def in NFL, asking Smith to do very little, problem is they will not be able to outscore GB or NO, why? A Smith. End goal is winning

SB not to make playoffs. Flynn in SF would be a great fit and legit SB threat with that D

you made my point...thanks

[afosomf]

I love absolutes, they always make so much sense. All one way or all the other is pretty much sports radio garbage - it's not reality. Being "controversial" is not talking football, it's taking the easy way out and just taking a side.

That said, please tell me why rolling a quarterback out to play to a strength and get said quarterback into a little rhythm is a bad thing? Seems like John Elway and Steve Young both benefited from that strategy a bunch back in their time, no?

And just to put this out there, I'm not a Sanchez apologist, I just don't think the Jets are doing anything to make him better with the current offensive philosophy. Help the kid, help the team, and figure out if he's the answer in the process. Seems to make sense, no?

John you know Elway and Young could also throw in pocket and were fearless in pocket.

I also want schott out for 2 reasons 1) sick of whining of jet fans whining about him 2) one last year for sanchez investment if he suks again

[GreenBeans]

John you know Elway and Young could also throw in pocket and were fearless in pocket.

I also want schott out for 2 reasons 1) sick of whining of jet fans whining about him 2) one last year for sanchez investment if he suks again

Both had trouble with it early in their career, especially Young, and that is the truth. Sanchez has some athletic ability, they should make use of it. As far as Schottenheimer is concerned, i think he'll be a good head coach, and I'd love to see either Norv Turner or Tom Moore have a year with Sanchez and see if they can't get him right. Brian Schottenheimer does not seem to be the right fit for #6.

[afosomf]

Both had trouble with it early in their career, especially Young, and that is the truth. Sanchez has some athletic ability, they should make use of it. As far as Schottenheimer is concerned, i think he'll be a good head coach, and I'd love to see either Norv Turner or Tom Moore have a year with Sanchez and see if they can't get him right. Brian Schottenheimer does not seem to be the right fit for #6.

Different rules back then, they would eat up this pussified version of NFL. There is no chance of Norv working with Rex after the vitriole directed at him earlier in year.

Tom Moore is Old and Peyton has called the plays the last 10 yrs. Will be someone else and prob will be BC, and then i will barf

[TheSage]

And in his 3rd year brees was benched 3 times. Even if his accuracy is not great beyond 20-30 yard you still throw a few just to keep the D honest. How many times did shotty call for a deep one????/

[afosomf]

And in his 3rd year brees was benched 3 times. Even if his accuracy is not great beyond 20-30 yard you still throw a few just to keep the D honest. How many times did shotty call for a deep one????/

With all do respect u or I have no effen clue how many playcalls were suppose to go deep and MS just checked down. How many times do you hear Kill Kill?.

[Bugg]

what changed? SF Def is top rated Def in NFL, asking Smith to do very little, problem is they will not be able to outscore GB or NO, why? A Smith. End goal is winning

SB not to make playoffs. Flynn in SF would be a great fit and legit SB threat with that D

This. To win it all you need at least very good and probably superior play at QB. Ground and Pound with so many bad teams in the NFL has a ceiling of about 11-12 wins followed by a loss to a team that has a very good or great QB.

[CTM]

Many fans i know refuse to give him any credit. As far as Offense goes,I prefer My QB not to look like a monkey trying to eff a football. Sorry Bill Walsh cant help this kid.

hey nice to see you back!

[CTM]

you made my point...thanks

Meh, but your point is that if we do everything we can to cover the QB deficiences, we'd be allright..

that's ok when you invest 12M and 2nd like CINN (and dalton > sanchez btw), not when you take a QB at 5 and give him 50m it doesn't cut it..

it's the pennington thing again, i was never a fan, but was ok with him until the little grub milked a huge contract out of the organization and wasted money

[Jetscode1]

Meh, but your point is that if we do everything we can to cover the QB deficiences, we'd be allright..

that's ok when you invest 12M and 2nd like CINN (and dalton > sanchez btw), not when you take a QB at 5 and give him 50m it doesn't cut it..

it's the pennington thing again, i was never a fan, but was ok with him until the little grub milked a huge contract out of the organization and wasted money

No, my point is the organization has to take ownership for training their employees...each organization chose its own core disciplines...the Jets just hired a defensive oriented, first-time HC...used a high draft selection on an inexperienced college QB with some obvious talents then married him to an OC with a resume of underperformance with even experienced QB...fast forward three years and we wonder why we had our hopes up...Chad was not at fault for milking a huge contract...the organization was at fault for buying the false hopes based on limited experience...

bottomline: the organization needs to own this or the cycle never stops.

[CTM]

No, my point is the organization has to take ownership for training their employees...each organization chose its own core disciplines...the Jets just hired a defensive oriented, first-time HC...used a high draft selection on an inexperienced college QB with some obvious talents then married him to an OC with a resume of underperformance with even experienced QB...fast forward three years and we wonder why we had our hopes up...Chad was not at fault for milking a huge contract...the organization was at fault for buying the false hopes based on limited experience...

bottomline: the organization needs to own this or the cycle never stops.

when has schotty underperformed? Please be specifc

[Jetscode1]

when has schotty underperformed? Please be specifc

Really?

2006 - present

Are you enjoying the offensive product each and every Sunday?

Why is it that the two big name coaching families currently employed by the Jets are showing their worst tendencies?

The Ryans: Equal parts defensive genius, buffoonery, and the tale of two different units (O vs. D)

The Schottenheimers: Equal parts predictable, boring, play not to lose offensive football.

Its the worst power marriage the NFL ever concocted.

But go ahead....blame the 25 year old kid...he looked like sh*t all year.

[CTM]

Really?

2006 - present

Are you enjoying the offensive product each and every Sunday?

Why is it that the two big name coaching families currently employed by the Jets are showing their worst tendencies?

The Ryans: Equal parts defensive genius, buffoonery, and the tale of two different units (O vs. D)

The Schottenheimers: Equal parts predictable, boring, play not to lose offensive football.

Its the worst power marriage the NFL ever concocted.

But go ahead....blame the 25 year old kid...he looked like sh*t all year.

ok, so no details..

You acknowledge the QB is bad, but expect good offensive production, how does that work exactly?

[SenorGato]

Really?

2006 - present

Are you enjoying the offensive product each and every Sunday?

Why is it that the two big name coaching families currently employed by the Jets are showing their worst tendencies?

The Ryans: Equal parts defensive genius, buffoonery, and the tale of two different units (O vs. D)

The Schottenheimers: Equal parts predictable, boring, play not to lose offensive football.

Its the worst power marriage the NFL ever concocted.

But go ahead....blame the 25 year old kid...he looked like sh*t all year.

That should factor 0 into what has the offense has to do to help win games. The 2006 Jets' offense was something like 18th. Their D was something like 18th. They won 10 games anyway. Even considering a weak schedule, a coaching staff's aim to win the game and worry about their statistical ranking this week later.

I will gladly blame the 25 year old kid. The fact that he's a 25 year old kid (barely 25, he was 24 for half+ of this season) just makes it easier to spot him, as it's obvious that if there's a flaw on a team like this it's going to be with the 25 year old they give the ball to every offensive handoff. At Sanchez's age a few of the stud QBs in this league were just getting their feet wet or still riding pine even. He's going to play like that kind of guy sometimes.

Fact is, Schottenheimer has mostly worked with garbage at QB, and he's dragged two of them to the playoffs despite how badly they didn't deserve to be there. Hell, the one who put up pretty numbers that we all like to see is the one that went and blew up in everyone's face....not that that means anything, just something that's funny to see. I think that Sanchez took a forward in completion% and TD:INT is something that says the coaches did more of what he could do (didn't even have a TC for both Sanchez and his coaches), that the GM went and got him pass catchers who can catch TDs, and that sometimes he does his job. Nobody is teaching him to make mistakes. They are his mistakes, and it is his job to make sure those mistakes do not happen.

Really, it pretty much all comes down to Sanchez. If they went out and got Manning, they'd be saying exactly that. This team is pretty damn good at most things but throwing the ball. How is it not painfully obvious that it's Sanchez?

[#27TheDominator]

No, my point is the organization has to take ownership for training their employees...each organization chose its own core disciplines...the Jets just hired a defensive oriented, first-time HC...used a high draft selection on an inexperienced college QB with some obvious talents then married him to an OC with a resume of underperformance with even experienced QB...fast forward three years and we wonder why we had our hopes up...Chad was not at fault for milking a huge contract...the organization was at fault for buying the false hopes based on limited experience...

bottomline: the organization needs to own this or the cycle never stops.

Take ownership? Is this football or ******* therapy?

The problem isn't the number of mistakes he makes, but the type. The fact that he makes mistakes that you can see coming from a mile away and that any Pop Warner QB would be humiliated by are painful to watch. Do you really think a coach was involved with Checkdown Charlie throwing it to defensive linemen TWICE IN ONE GAME? With taking the safety in the Giants game? Those are things that are hard to forgive.

[greeniemeanie]

The Schottenheimer apologists around here seem to think that we should not look at history. Favre and Pennington both went against their career norm's when Schotty was their OC. They had worse years with Schotty than without.

Ah, forget it. Some of you are just so darned stubborn.

GreenBeans and Warfish nailed it. The fault goes around to everyone. Sanchez looked like crap this year. Schotty has always called predictable plays. Rex seems to be oblivious as to what goes on with the offense. Tannebaum/Woody (the Front Office) did not have a good offseason this past year.

I am not convinced that Sanchez is as bad as some of you do. I too, will remain stubborn and make the claim that I always make;

I don't know what Sanchez will look like with another offense in the NFL. I do know what a Schottenheimer offense looks like with another QB (1 being the most accurate in NFL history, the other being the all-time leader in many passing categories), and I didn't like it at all.

Schotty got a chance with multiple QB's, Sanchez deserves a chance with another OC. Scrapping the QB is premature at this point. Patience is the prudent choice in terms of the young signal caller. If he continues to suck with another OC, then you can him.

Just my .02

[SenorGato]

The Schottenheimer apologists around here seem to think that we should not look at history. Favre and Pennington both went against their career norm's when Schotty was their OC. They had worse years with Schotty than without.

That's not true of Pennington. When the hell did Pennington become some super QB? Not only was it a miracle he lasted all of '06, but he won CPOY (which he somehow won again 2 years later).

Favre looked alot like good Favre when he was healthy. He looked alot like bad Favre when he wasn't. He was a gamble that blew up in everyone's face.

The fault goes to everyone, but most of it goes to the QB.

[greeniemeanie]

That's not true of Pennington. When the hell did Pennington become some super QB? Not only was it a miracle he lasted all of '06, but he won CPOY (which he somehow won again 2 years later).

Favre looked alot like good Favre when he was healthy. He looked alot like bad Favre when he wasn't. He was a gamble that blew up in everyone's face.

The fault goes to everyone, but most of it goes to the QB.

Pennington, the most accurate QB in the history of the NFL, had more turnovers and a lower TD% in Schotty's system then he ever had otherwise. I am not making the claim that Pennington was a game changer, but he is the most accurate QB in the history of the game...

Favre was having an off year before he got hurt.

The stats are all there... the evaluation of the statistics is where you and I disagree. Also, I have eyes. I have watched every Jets game that Schotty has play called. Now I don't know if the calls being executed were based upon an audible or what not, but I do know that his offense is very predictable.

Schotty is simply not a good OC. period. He has not done anything to bring out the best in his QB's. No QB under Schotty's tutelage had their best season. Not even close. Even in 2006, Penny threw for the most INT's of his career.

Sanchez deserves the benefit of the doubt to work under another OC. I'm not even saying he deserves as much patience as you have given Schotty to put together a good/mediocre offense. I'm just saying, the kid should get a chance with at least one other OC.

I still agree that there are many to blame this year for this 8-8 season.

[SenorGato]

Pennington, the most accurate QB in the history of the NFL, had more turnovers and a lower TD% in Schotty's system then he ever had otherwise.

1. It was Pennington's first full NFL season, ever.

2. He remained accurate, as he complete almost 65% of his passes.

3. The rest of the offense had names like Kevin Barlow, Chris Baker, and Anthony Clements making starts. Most of the key guys were niche guys who Schottenheimer found a niche for, like Leon Washington and Brad Smith.

Favre was 8-3 with 18 or so TDs when he fell apart....This while being forty, arriving a month before the season started, and supposedly making Schottenheimer learn a completely different playbook on the fly for his sake.

Find a good QB that can last here and you'll have this magical sideline savior/offensive coordinator you seek. The guy they have now is an excellent football coach.

[Jetscode1]

ok, so no details..

You acknowledge the QB is bad, but expect good offensive production, how does that work exactly?

You must like the product Schotty puts on the field...guess I just disagree...take a look at Houston...good example of an offensive staff that can get decent performance with an average QB talent wise...can you name one QB that Schotty helped develop?