Geno’s Not Entirely to Blame: A Look at the Decline of the Offensive Line

[FloridaJetsFan]

Caesar Please! Do not blame the O Line and RBs for a sh*tty QB! He STARES at his receivers like Crusher looking at a ******* Carvel ice cream cake! No offense Crush ...

[bitonti]

Fans can't due it qualitatively or objectively.

 

As much as we would like to graded these things, we just don't know. To rank the 32 o-lines and say it is done accurately is purely fantasy folly.

 

using Pro Bowl honors (1/3 players, 1/3 coaches, 1/3 fans) is a way of getting "the real scoop" 

 

i factor in AP All pro and Pro bowl honors more than most would like. But as you point out that 1/3 coaches is probably the best we're gonna get when it comes to total information. 

 

side note if one was going to rank the OL the fact that there's context is a huge plus. Jets fans usually only look at Jets OL. if you compare this line to previous years, it's bad. If you compare them to the 2013 Atlanta Falcons they are friggin amazing. the system ive set up is not genius but it takes a certain amount of effort to track every lineup change and every injury, all season long.  the abstract idea of these lines is different than the lineup these teams trot out.

 

On that note if the Jets can't play Mangold this week, they won't win. I said before, can't remember the last Mangold-less victory (and too lazy to look it up.)

[FloridaJetsFan]

On that note if the Jets can't play Mangold this week, they won't win. I said before, can't remember the last Mangold-less victory (and too lazy to look it up.)

Lazy F'er.

[Jacked4JetsFB]

You know what I see?

We have a bad offensive line. We have a bad Quarterback. We have bad weaponz.

Not a glowing endorsement of a coach after 5 years.

This is how I feel. I wanted to believe that the offense sucked because of Sporano and Sanchez, but the fact that in year 5 our offense is so putrid on all levels except a decent running game is to me a huge inditement on Rex.

[Scott Dierking]

using Pro Bowl honors (1/3 players, 1/3 coaches, 1/3 fans) is a way of getting "the real scoop" 

 

i factor in AP All pro and Pro bowl honors more than most would like. But as you point out that 1/3 coaches is probably the best we're gonna get when it comes to total information. 

 

side note if one was going to rank the OL the fact that there's context is a huge plus. Jets fans usually only look at Jets OL. if you compare this line to previous years, it's bad. If you compare them to the 2013 Atlanta Falcons they are friggin amazing. the system ive set up is not genius but it takes a certain amount of effort to track every lineup change and every injury, all season long.  the abstract idea of these lines is different than the lineup these teams trot out.

 

On that note if the Jets can't play Mangold this week, they won't win. I said before, can't remember the last Mangold-less victory (and too lazy to look it up.)

So, since Cronmartie was voted to the Pro Bowl last year, he should be one of the top rated CB's.

 

Seems like a bad system

[SickJetFan]

Fans can't due it qualitatively or objectively.

 

We are not privy to what play calls were, what responsibilities were on any given play and what line changes were made on plays. What may look like a whiff on a block by a Tackle to the uninformed casual fan, may be a missed assignment by the TE.

 

Where there may have been a hole created by the line as the play was called, may be a mis-read by the RB in hitting that hole.

 

What may be a sack given up, may be the QB holding the ball too long.

 

etc, etc, etc.

 

As much as we would like to graded these things, we just don't know. To rank the 32 o-lines and say it is done accurately is purely fantasy folly.

So we just give up is it? Throw in the towel? Accept the folly of game day without the trivia, discussion, explanations, f##king blame.

I say no...no. fu%$k that. I wait all #&-$$#%&& year for this %*%## year in. Year out just to watch this pathetic team fumble away my f##king sundays... I defend these pathetic clowns when my. Coworkers poke fun..I buy their crappy hats and jerseys..spent thousands of dollars in bars on game day soaking my sorrows..

Well f&&k that

I want answers....

Oh I guess I'm little off topic huh

[Larz]

when the offense is putrid, there are mistakes happening all over. 

[Jets-Lose-Again]

Is this even a debate? Geno Smith has gone more than a month without a touchdown pass. Since then, he has seven picks and a giant goose egg in the plus column. Next game? Jets-Lose-Again

[SickJetFan]

Is this even a debate? Geno Smith has gone more than a month without a touchdown pass. Since then, he has seven picks and a giant goose egg in the plus column. Next game? Jets-Lose-Again

I like you

You are one of those half glass full people

[kelticwizard]

Rule #1 with a young QB is to get him off to a good start.  A veteran has the experience and resilience to come back after a bad beginning, but young QBs tend to go into the tank when things start out badly.

 

So what hapened Sunday?  Easy balls get dropped by our off-the-street receiving corps.

 

Had a hunch  the way things would go right there, and unfortunately I was right.

 

Eli was terrible until the Giants got Plaxico in his prime to help him make plays, and for a whole season it seemed like throwing to Plaxico was the only play Eli could make.  Burress was so injured for most of a season that he did not even practice, but they suited him up every game because Eli needed him desperately.  And out of that a Super Bowl QB was born.

 

Before you judge Geno, get him somebody who can make plays catching the damn ball.

[SayNoToDMC]

Rex had the best O line in football when he got here, it's not his fault they declined

[CrazyCarl40]

Geno's numbers are Tebowian.

[sirlancemehlot]

I'm going to weigh in because the lack of respect and importance afforded to offensive line play is utterly astounding to me.  I've been a youth offensive line coach for years, not because I had to, because I chose offensive line.  I coach Oline and linebackers because I've found those two elements are most essential to any team...due to the fact that if you are weak in those areas, you have to gameplan with smoke and mirrors and hide the fact that you can be beat in the trenches and (in the case of LB's) blocked at the second level.  For the record I coached a sixth grade team to an undefeated championship season... due mainly to the fact that we could mix run and pass and pull both guards front side and backside, as well as zone block stretch plays.  Laugh and snicker that a youth coach is nothing like the NFL.  But you'd be wrong.  The more your team can do, the more difficult they are to gameplan for.  If your offensive line is especially skilled, you've added time for drop-backs and WR routes, you've added yards to the end of runs, and you've kept the defense guessing and therefore playing on their heels.  There is no difference from level to level in these aspects. 

     Now, all those measurables and metrics are worth squat.  They base everything on pass protection for the most part.  An exceptional line is one that moves the line of Scrimmage every play.  They open holes, block at the second level, and can pull with speed on traps and power.  They are also quick footed and have excellent balance, allowing them to mirror pass rushers on QB dropbacks.  They work together, communicate and are confident and dynamic in their protections.  My sixth graders called off pulls, doubled DL when needed, and changed schemes on iso plays...all at the LOS.  Because they were trained to think and adapt.  They could do this because we had no weak spots.  there was no Howard or Ducasse to account for. 

     Now, the Jets Oline.  It isn't good.  But they are also getting blamed for bad pass pro when in fact, backs and TE's are just as much to blame in blowing assignments.  Blocking schemes are just that...schemes.  They count on every man making his block, sliding to assist against stronger DL when uncovered...while the backs cover gap responsibility and the TE is either doubling, hooking or kicking out the DE (when they aren't in a route.)  The Jets are struggling like crazy in this dept.  Gone are the days of Becht and Brady, the Jets have not had a single blocking TE on the roster.  This hurts the run-game tremendously as there is no way to get an edge without a big blocker on the end of the line.  The Jets answer has been to go Jumbo...alerting the Defense to stack the line as the "TE" is not a threat to run routes.  Now, on top of that, we haven't been able to pull well since Faneca.  He was great at pulling on power and he and Mangold were excellent in trading pulling responsibilities.  We rarely get second level blocks any more, forcing our backs to run through tackles rather than giving them running lanes.  Winters is a work in progress, Ducasse is a hot mess, Colon is too big to move well, and Mangold has lost a step.  Fast linebackers eat us alive and fast DTs/DEs beat the traps to the gap, shutting down the holes.  So we don't run very well.  We are forced to pass.  The defense knows it.  and every third down and long is a jailbreak blitz against a big slow offensive line and inexperienced backs and undersized TE (in max protect).  Welcome to the Jets offensive struggles.  For those that say great skill positions make up for crap lines, you're deluding yourselves.  If DL is so important it would stand to reason that OL is equally as important as they face each other every snap.  And the NFL agrees.  This past draft SIX of the top ELEVEN players drafted were offensive lineman.  Guards and Tackles are at a premium as teams stockpile giant three techniques and speedy edge rushers.  RB's and WR's are far less valuable, and recent drafts have reflected that. 

     The Jets had another Rookie QB once named Sanchez.  He went to the AFCCG in his first two seasons.  He had a top-three offensive line (some say the #1 line) in the NFL.  D'Brick, Faneca, Mangold, Moore and Damien Woody kept the kid upright, gave him time and an extremely effective running game.  His third year that line was a shambles.  And so was the QB.  The fourth year...the pattern repeated.  Yet some choose to ignore the obvious, and reject obvious patterns because you can't measure Oline play on a stopwatch, and Willie Colon will never pose on a GQ cover with his shirt off (god willing).  The line is not sexy, nor is it exciting, electrifying or any of those other great adjectives.  What it is, is a lynchpin to offensive success.  It is a crucial factor that makes or breaks a RB, a QB, or a receiver.  With a weak line, you have to be intensely talented everywhere else to succeed.  When you lack talent, and a dominant line, you have the 2013 NY Jets Offense.,

[Larz]

^ potm

[ZachEY]

This post implies that these three things are equal levels of bad. 

 

Closer to equal than any meaningful difference.

[T0mShane]

The great OL is dead. The cap has killed it. Even if you find four good OL, you couldn't afford to keep them together for more than three seasons. It is impossible. Every team in the league is playing with a bunch of itinerant mercenaries protecting their expensive quarterbacks.

[RSJ]

I'm going to weigh in because the lack of respect and importance afforded to offensive line play is utterly astounding to me.  I've been a youth offensive line coach for years, not because I had to, because I chose offensive line.  I coach Oline and linebackers because I've found those two elements are most essential to any team...due to the fact that if you are weak in those areas, you have to gameplan with smoke and mirrors and hide the fact that you can be beat in the trenches and (in the case of LB's) blocked at the second level.  For the record I coached a sixth grade team to an undefeated championship season... due mainly to the fact that we could mix run and pass and pull both guards front side and backside, as well as zone block stretch plays.  Laugh and snicker that a youth coach is nothing like the NFL.  But you'd be wrong.  The more your team can do, the more difficult they are to gameplan for.  If your offensive line is especially skilled, you've added time for drop-backs and WR routes, you've added yards to the end of runs, and you've kept the defense guessing and therefore playing on their heels.  There is no difference from level to level in these aspects. 

     Now, all those measurables and metrics are worth squat.  They base everything on pass protection for the most part.  An exceptional line is one that moves the line of Scrimmage every play.  They open holes, block at the second level, and can pull with speed on traps and power.  They are also quick footed and have excellent balance, allowing them to mirror pass rushers on QB dropbacks.  They work together, communicate and are confident and dynamic in their protections.  My sixth graders called off pulls, doubled DL when needed, and changed schemes on iso plays...all at the LOS.  Because they were trained to think and adapt.  They could do this because we had no weak spots.  there was no Howard or Ducasse to account for. 

     Now, the Jets Oline.  It isn't good.  But they are also getting blamed for bad pass pro when in fact, backs and TE's are just as much to blame in blowing assignments.  Blocking schemes are just that...schemes.  They count on every man making his block, sliding to assist against stronger DL when uncovered...while the backs cover gap responsibility and the TE is either doubling, hooking or kicking out the DE (when they aren't in a route.)  The Jets are struggling like crazy in this dept.  Gone are the days of Becht and Brady, the Jets have not had a single blocking TE on the roster.  This hurts the run-game tremendously as there is no way to get an edge without a big blocker on the end of the line.  The Jets answer has been to go Jumbo...alerting the Defense to stack the line as the "TE" is not a threat to run routes.  Now, on top of that, we haven't been able to pull well since Faneca.  He was great at pulling on power and he and Mangold were excellent in trading pulling responsibilities.  We rarely get second level blocks any more, forcing our backs to run through tackles rather than giving them running lanes.  Winters is a work in progress, Ducasse is a hot mess, Colon is too big to move well, and Mangold has lost a step.  Fast linebackers eat us alive and fast DTs/DEs beat the traps to the gap, shutting down the holes.  So we don't run very well.  We are forced to pass.  The defense knows it.  and every third down and long is a jailbreak blitz against a big slow offensive line and inexperienced backs and undersized TE (in max protect).  Welcome to the Jets offensive struggles.  For those that say great skill positions make up for crap lines, you're deluding yourselves.  If DL is so important it would stand to reason that OL is equally as important as they face each other every snap.  And the NFL agrees.  This past draft SIX of the top ELEVEN players drafted were offensive lineman.  Guards and Tackles are at a premium as teams stockpile giant three techniques and speedy edge rushers.  RB's and WR's are far less valuable, and recent drafts have reflected that. 

     The Jets had another Rookie QB once named Sanchez.  He went to the AFCCG in his first two seasons.  He had a top-three offensive line (some say the #1 line) in the NFL.  D'Brick, Faneca, Mangold, Moore and Damien Woody kept the kid upright, gave him time and an extremely effective running game.  His third year that line was a shambles.  And so was the QB.  The fourth year...the pattern repeated.  Yet some choose to ignore the obvious, and reject obvious patterns because you can't measure Oline play on a stopwatch, and Willie Colon will never pose on a GQ cover with his shirt off (god willing).  The line is not sexy, nor is it exciting, electrifying or any of those other great adjectives.  What it is, is a lynchpin to offensive success.  It is a crucial factor that makes or breaks a RB, a QB, or a receiver.  With a weak line, you have to be intensely talented everywhere else to succeed.  When you lack talent, and a dominant line, you have the 2013 NY Jets Offense.,

 

Maybe it is still ultra important on the youth level - but not so much on the high school level and above. Most high school offenses and above run some version of the spread. The lineman are taught only a two point stance and a one step and punch. They literally have to know nothing. The offenses are all hurry up with no huddle and are one quick read, pre snap. They are quick throw offenses. Also in the style you described, you probably feel that the OT is the most important position in the offensive line. That is also not the case anymore. Guard is now considered more important. The reasoning is that the only thing that slows these quick strike offenses is some type of A Gap pressure. Outside pressure, especially outside the offensive tackle takes too long to develop. All of the high power offenses in the NFL run this spread style of offense (Saints, Broncos, Pats). Geno just sucks, thats all there really is to it.

[RSJ]

The great OL is dead. The cap has killed it. Even if you find four good OL, you couldn't afford to keep them together for more than three seasons. It is impossible. Every team in the league is playing with a bunch of itinerant mercenaries protecting their expensive quarterbacks.

 

Another reason everyone is going to the spread as I described above. There is no teaching to it. Stand in a two point stance, step left or right and punch. Thats it.

[sirlancemehlot]

Maybe it is still ultra important on the youth level - but not so much on the high school level and above. Most high school offenses and above run some version of the spread. The lineman are taught only a two point stance and a one step and punch. They literally have to know nothing. The offenses are all hurry up with no huddle and are one quick read, pre snap. They are quick throw offenses. Also in the style you described, you probably feel that the OT is the most important position in the offensive line. That is also not the case anymore. Guard is now considered more important. The reasoning is that the only thing that slows these quick strike offenses is some type of A Gap pressure. Outside pressure, especially outside the offensive tackle takes too long to develop. All of the high power offenses in the NFL run this spread style of offense (Saints, Broncos, Pats). Geno just sucks, thats all there really is to it.

It is important at every level.  I'm in Wayne NJ, the home of multiple HS State Champion Wayne Hills Patriots--the team Greg Olsen played for (coached by his dad).  The "other" HS, Wayne Valley, is just as good and they have epic games against each other every year.  The third H.S. is DePaul.  Another excellent team.  The head of our youth Program is a former coach of a state champion team that I won't mention because it might reveal him and I wouldn't do that without his permission.  Our youth program is tied to the states best HS coaches, and none of them coach a two point stance and a step and punch line.  Step-punch-drive is the norm.  And no, tackle is not the most important position IMO.  Guard is--in that we agree.  I use my more athletic lineman there because, as I said above, speed to the hole and quick steps to the second level are key.  NOW.  the last point you make...Geno just sucks.  Well, yeah.  He sucks really bad.  Horribly.  He's an embarrassment to the QB position.  Having a bad line in no way excuses his suckage.  In fact he kills their reps even further, by holding the ball forever and not knowing how to avoid pressure.  he sucks.  We're good there.  Sucks.  Bad.  But we need a better line.  For the next guy, anyway. 

[RSJ]

It is important at every level.  I'm in Wayne NJ, the home of multiple HS State Champion Wayne Hills Patriots--the team Greg Olsen played for (coached by his dad).  The "other" HS, Wayne Valley, is just as good and they have epic games against each other every year.  The third H.S. is DePaul.  Another excellent team.  The head of our youth Program is a former coach of a state champion team that I won't mention because it might reveal him and I wouldn't do that without his permission.  Our youth program is tied to the states best HS coaches, and none of them coach a two point stance and a step and punch line.  Step-punch-drive is the norm.  And no, tackle is not the most important position IMO.  Guard is--in that we agree.  I use my more athletic lineman there because, as I said above, speed to the hole and quick steps to the second level are key.  NOW.  the last point you make...Geno just sucks.  Well, yeah.  He sucks really bad.  Horribly.  He's an embarrassment to the QB position.  Having a bad line in no way excuses his suckage.  In fact he kills their reps even further, by holding the ball forever and not knowing how to avoid pressure.  he sucks.  We're good there.  Sucks.  Bad.  But we need a better line.  For the next guy, anyway. 

 

Well we agree Geno sucks. lol

 

I will do the same in not revealing some of the information. I will just say that New Rochelle, New Canaan, Masuk (not so much this year), and Xavier are all powerhouses and former state Champs in CT and NY (respectively). My son plays for one of these coaches as a WR and CB. He does not play OL - but I know that all of these schools run some variation of the spread and never put their OL in a three point stance anymore. I know this because of the 20 page scouting report he gets every week on the other schools and the countless hours I have watched practices. I honestly read the scouting reports for fun and they are interesting. However, they all play a variation of the spread and use their lineman in a two point stance all game. The youth level is different and limited by age/weight. It is a totally different ball game. There are schools that still run the wishbone and more pro style of offenses. None of them are successful that I know of anymore in CT or NY. Not to the state title level anyway. In the NFL teams are in the two point stance about 90% of the game. 

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/10396/is-the-three-point-stance-dead

 

"One of the big things that I see is that they don't get in a three-point stance much anymore," Madden said. "It's all about pass protection. There was a time for an offensive lineman in NFL where maybe it was maybe half run block, half pass protection. ... Now it's about 90 percent pass protection. You see so much shotgun, spread formations. When you're in that, you're going to run a draw anyway so there's no reason to get in a three-point stance. 

[Il Mostro]

The OL is not the problem.  That is all.

[sirlancemehlot]

Well we agree Geno sucks. lol

 

I will do the same in not revealing some of the information. I will just say that New Rochelle, New Canaan, Masuk (not so much this year), and Xavier are all powerhouses and former state Champs in CT and NY (respectively). My son plays for one of these coaches as a WR and CB. He does not play OL - but I know that all of these schools run some variation of the spread and never put their OL in a three point stance anymore. I know this because of the 20 page scouting report he gets every week on the other schools and the countless hours I have watched practices. I honestly read the scouting reports for fun and they are interesting. However, they all play a variation of the spread and use their lineman in a two point stance all game. The youth level is different and limited by age/weight. It is a totally different ball game. There are schools that still run the wishbone and more pro style of offenses. None of them are successful that I know of anymore in CT or NY. Not to the state title level anyway. In the NFL teams are in the two point stance about 90% of the game. 

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/10396/is-the-three-point-stance-dead

 

"One of the big things that I see is that they don't get in a three-point stance much anymore," Madden said. "It's all about pass protection. There was a time for an offensive lineman in NFL where maybe it was maybe half run block, half pass protection. ... Now it's about 90 percent pass protection. You see so much shotgun, spread formations. When you're in that, you're going to run a draw anyway so there's no reason to get in a three-point stance. 

 

Well we agree Geno sucks. lol

 

I will do the same in not revealing some of the information. I will just say that New Rochelle, New Canaan, Masuk (not so much this year), and Xavier are all powerhouses and former state Champs in CT and NY (respectively). My son plays for one of these coaches as a WR and CB. He does not play OL - but I know that all of these schools run some variation of the spread and never put their OL in a three point stance anymore. I know this because of the 20 page scouting report he gets every week on the other schools and the countless hours I have watched practices. I honestly read the scouting reports for fun and they are interesting. However, they all play a variation of the spread and use their lineman in a two point stance all game. The youth level is different and limited by age/weight. It is a totally different ball game. There are schools that still run the wishbone and more pro style of offenses. None of them are successful that I know of anymore in CT or NY. Not to the state title level anyway. In the NFL teams are in the two point stance about 90% of the game. 

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/10396/is-the-three-point-stance-dead

 

"One of the big things that I see is that they don't get in a three-point stance much anymore," Madden said. "It's all about pass protection. There was a time for an offensive lineman in NFL where maybe it was maybe half run block, half pass protection. ... Now it's about 90 percent pass protection. You see so much shotgun, spread formations. When you're in that, you're going to run a draw anyway so there's no reason to get in a three-point stance. 

Running a spread doesn't necessarily mean stretch blocking.  I teach stretch and zone blocking (Doug Marrone's favorite when he was Jets OL coach).  These are styles used for given sets, personnel packages and certain plays.  There are also different schemes used against different fronts whether 3-4, 4-3, or 5-2 .  Just watch NFL and College football.  You will see that 90% (as stated in the Madden quote)use of two point stance plays is ridiculous...though some teams use it more than others.  It's part of a repertoire.  There are myriad styles and schemes and because of this, youth, HS, college and Pros have all gotten far more complicated in their blocking schemes over the years, not less.  Kids as young as seven and eight are going to clinics and learning how to read defensive fronts. I assisted in a clinic run by William Paterson College last year and was pleasantly surprised to see that their schemes were no different than the ones I coach at the sixth grade level.  Keep in mind, in my program (which is one of two in town, so the players are split) we had over 100 players at the 5th/6th grade level alone.  You need to know your stuff.  I attend coaching clinics throughout the year and have been advised by College (Notre Dame Coach Brian Kelly this past year) and professional coaches and players.  I assure you, Oline schemes have not been simplified.  the old days flipper blocking and rules of head-up, inside, over-out are long since gone.  Kids are taught doubles, hooks, combos, post and go, traps, screens, power pulls, flat pulls, kickouts, stretch, zone, base and sprint blocking...and they aren't even in HS yet.  The blocking you mention is a step, punch the outside shoulder and run your man wide...this isn't the only scheme a team should know.  As far as two point stance, there is another reason for that at the youth and HS level.  Its come down in a big way from leagues throughout the country.  Some have even banned the three point stance.  Its a concussion issue.  Leagues are finding parents are not willing to let their kids play football anymore because of a fear of traumatic brain injury.  So the two point stance has been encouraged (and In some cases enforced) in order to keep leagues and programs alive.  The day will come when the 3-point stance will be gone at the HS level altogether.  But in the Meantime, Geno still sucks.  And on that we can agree.  Which is good enough for me, to be honest.

[Larz]

so bringin in braylon won't fix it ?

[77DRAFT]

We really need to evaluate all the lineman, I think we need to replace Colon,

maybe Brick is too old, he sure looks bad, major changes coming to this line

next year, 2 years in a row, Slaus wasn't the problem.  Anyone know if

Campbell / and the rookie tackle have taken any snaps this year?

 

ALSO DON'T KNOW WHY ANYONE WOULD DEFEND THE PLAY OF

THIS LINE, WE NEED ANOTHER NEW OLINE COACH. PERIOD.

[neckdemon]

the o-line isn't the best....but geno is basically the worst

 

for the life of me i can't figure out why some of you try to find as many ways to defense keeping geno smith as possible. the kid sucks.....let's upgrade and actually start winning

[flgreen]

the o-line isn't the best....but geno is basically the worst

 

for the life of me i can't figure out why some of you try to find as many ways to defense keeping geno smith as possible. the kid sucks.....let's upgrade and actually start winning

 

I agree with you.

 

I also understand why so many of the posters are blindly being loyal to Smith and hoping somehow he will  miraculously turn into an NFL QB.   Same reason a lot of people were blindly loyal to Sanchez.  

 

They just don't want to start all over again with a rookie QB, or some washed up dreg.  

 

It doesn't matter what we posters think, I just hope the FO isn't going all in with this kid.  He just doesn't have it, and is getting worst each week