Jets 2017 - Rebuild or retool?

[thadude]

1 minute ago, bostonmajet said:

The problem is that the 3 are DEs, that is the problem we had when they tried to play all 3, so unless you are going to implement the new Triangle formation, only 2 are going to be in their ideal position. Yesterday, they played them straight across, so DE, DE, DE. It worked ok against buffalo, but you really want a big DT in their. Also, Sheldon is going to want to be paid. Once they signed Mo, Sheldon was gone IMO. 

Clady, even at a discounted rate is still a walking injury - can't stay healthy.

Even if Mangold stays, you have to sign his replacement. Shell looks promising, but still should have someone to compete with.

Clady - gone, sign Whitworth

Defense - change to 4-3 and try to get actual edge rushing DE's in the draft or free agency stop trying to play Sheldon and Wilk out of position

[thadude]

1 hour ago, varjet said:

Of the veterans, some can still play some, and some are done.

Considering all of the injuries this year, starting out with some of the vets makes sense.

To me the hardest decision is B Marshall   If Decker is fully healthy, I think you move on from BM.  If not, keep for another year.  Need 1 not 2 of them.

Breno, Revis and likely Gilcrist are done.   Mangold can stay at lower cost.   Harris maybe as well.   Would keep Clady too if healthy and cheap.  Trade SR.

There is a lot of roster to replace here.   There are no long term builds in the NFL.  Either 1 or 2 years.  The Jets are a 2.

 

 

Time for Harris to go.  He's good against the run but awful in pass coverage.  

 

We really need to change to 4-3.  Lee is Jonathan Vilma 

[bostonmajet]

1 minute ago, thadude said:

Clady - gone, sign Whitworth

Defense - change to 4-3 and try to get actual edge rushing DE's in the draft or free agency stop trying to play Sheldon and Wilk out of position

I don't agree; when their big DT was healthy they were unstoppable. Also, they are, IMO, better suited as 3-4 DEs then anything else.

Need to get another OLB (assuming Jenkins sticks) and another ILB to eventually take Harris' place. Still only need another OLB for now; instead switching to 4-3 would need 2LBs, and a NT.

Can spend their other picks on OL, CB, S.

[BigRy56]

The Jets have been rebuilding since Maccagnan came on. We signed some free agents during his first season and in 2015 we hit big on some of them. In 2016 a lot of them lost their stuff and obviously it showed this season. In the meantime, we have been drafting pretty well (Leo, Mauldin, Lee, Jenkins, Burris, Simon, Shell, Anderson, Marshall, Peake all look like they will be around for a while).

Fortunately, Mac has the unproductive veteran contracts lined up where they are all cuttable today. That gives us an opportunity to continue rebuilding through the draft and replenish our veterans through free agency.

We went 5-11 and this was an absolutely bottom of the barrel season where everything went wrong. I think this is a combination year, another decent draft and some solid free agency signings and we are right back in the playoff mix. The ultimate wildcard is whether we can find a quarterback - Mac has some options here.

It's going to be a really interesting offseason and I can't wait to get started. We can get better in a hurry with the right moves.

[thadude]

6 minutes ago, bostonmajet said:

I don't agree; when their big DT was healthy they were unstoppable. Also, they are, IMO, better suited as 3-4 DEs then anything else.

Need to get another OLB (assuming Jenkins sticks) and another ILB to eventually take Harris' place. Still only need another OLB for now; instead switching to 4-3 would need 2LBs, and a NT.

Can spend their other picks on OL, CB, S.

Part of the reason we haven't had a pass rusher since Abe was the switch to the 3-4.

[Il Mostro]

More likely to lose a finger -- there really isn't enough to "blow up".  Unless you are talking blow-up doll.

[bostonmajet]

Just now, thadude said:

Part of the reason we haven't had a pass rusher since Abe was the switch to the 3-4.

No, sorry, we haven't had one, because we haven't drafted one. We could switch to a 4-3 and not have a good pass rusher. If we switch to 4-3, would need a true 4-3 end and true 4-3 NT to get the pass rush, plus 2 LBs.

Or, we can draft an OLB the can rush the passer like other 3-4 teams.

[thadude]

Just now, bostonmajet said:

No, sorry, we haven't had one, because we haven't drafted one. We could switch to a 4-3 and not have a good pass rusher. If we switch to 4-3, would need a true 4-3 end and true 4-3 NT to get the pass rush, plus 2 LBs.

Or, we can draft an OLB the can rush the passer like other 3-4 teams.

Why do you think the Giants with their base 4-3 get pass rushing DE after DE?

 

[bostonmajet]

Because for a while they kept drafting them; it was like 3 firsts in a row. We switched to a 4-3 for chunks this year. And, it didn't help. We need a JPP or alike for a 4-3; we need a our version of Von Miller for a 3-4.

You need the players; switching formations won't do us any good.

[thadude]

Just now, bostonmajet said:

Because for a while they kept drafting them; it was like 3 firsts in a row. We switched to a 4-3 for chunks this year. And, it didn't help. We need a JPP or alike for a 4-3; we need a our version of Von Miller.

You need the players; switching formations won't do us any good.

Abe doesn't have the career he has playing in a 3-4.  Not even close.

[ScarletKnight89]

The only way you can rebuild is by retooling. But the Jets have to be smart about the players they sign in FA. Sign younger players. Not the 30 and older guys they went after when Maac first took over. The Giants are a great example of what the Jets should be trying to duplicate. They went after guys like Janoris Jenkins and Damon Harrison. The Jets went after guys like Darrelle Revis and Brandon Marshall whose best days were just about at an end.

[bostonmajet]

Just now, thadude said:

Abe doesn't have the career he has playing in a 3-4.  Not even close.

That's right, because he was a best fit for DL. You can't play JPP as a 3-4 OLB, and you can't play von-miller as a 4-3 DE. The players are different. You can't switch people out of their natural position so easily which is why it didn't help Sheldon to move him around.

[thadude]

1 minute ago, ScarletKnight89 said:

The only way you can rebuild is by retooling. But the Jets have to be smart about the players they sign in FA. Sign younger players. Not the 30 and older guys they went after when Maac first took over. The Giants are a great example of what the Jets should be trying to duplicate. They went after guys like Janoris Jenkins and Damon Harrison. The Jets went after guys like Darrelle Revis and Brandon Marshall whose best days were just about at an end.

Depends.  A guy like Whitworth would help us out immediately

[thadude]

1 minute ago, bostonmajet said:

That's right, because he was a best fit for DL. You can't play JPP as a 3-4 OLB, and you can't play von-miller as a 4-3 DE. The players are different. You can't switch people out of their natural position so easily which is why it didn't help Sheldon to move him around.

Our emphasis on sticking with the 3-4 has narrowed down our ability to bring in pass rushers because we can only target guys who are linebackers that can both rush the passer and cover.

[ScarletKnight89]

5 minutes ago, thadude said:

Depends.  A guy like Whitworth would help us out immediately

You can sprinkle in Veterans. But the majority of your team needs to be young in todays NFL. Sign young FA's who can grow with your draft picks and sprinkle in a vet or two as needed.

[dbatesman]

2 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

It's not though. Not in the context of having 3 draft classes fostered, and cap space you have to allocate. 2nd contract players are under 27. Look at the average age of playoff teams. 

Team would consist of guys ranging between 1-6 years experience. Rather than having all these 10+ Year vets.

I'm beginning to wonder if you guys realize that rebuilding is a PR term, and what we actually need is to get young and more skilled. 3 draft classes and spending on guys under 27 who are proven accomplished that.

 

I guess I didn't. I'll try to do better next time

[bostonmajet]

27 minutes ago, thadude said:

Our emphasis on sticking with the 3-4 has narrowed down our ability to bring in pass rushers because we can only target guys who are linebackers that can both rush the passer and cover.

Okay, LOL. Yeah, that is the job of a 3-4 OLB, just like in addition to rushing the passer, you have have to set the edge if you are a 4-3 end. You also make it sound like we can switch to a 4-3; everybody fits just perfect, and we can find a JPP or alike and a NT on our way to the mall.

 

[mphtrilogy]

Rebuild

[BRONX DUDE]

3 hours ago, August said:

No more retooling let's blow this thing up and rebuild. We have a few young building blocks already in place. 

Worth a try.

[RoadFan]

3 hours ago, Integrity28 said:

They've been adding players via draft for 2 years. This notion that a "proper" rebuild isn't happening, and may not be able to happen, is sort of absurd.

Every year is a rebuild until it it isn't. The veteran contracts given out haven't been prohibitive to adding lots of young players. By year 3 we should finally see worth of first drafts players. Old vets can be cut loose with minimal cap hit.

Jets are primed as one of top teams with space to clear based on what I've read. We target 2nd contract players and we can speed up this so-called rebuild quickly.

Exactly the wrong thing to do. 

Fraud Agency is overpaying for another team's crap. It is far more beneficial to players than franchises.  For every Snacks, there are ten Jairus Byrds. 

The Jets have holes everywhere on the roster, except maybe WR if Decker returns healthy. EVERYWHERE. 

"Speeding up the process" is a big part of the reason they are such a mess right now.

This team needs to spend high draft picks for 4 consecutive years addressing the OL, secondary, and pass rush.  And take another early 1st round shot at a QB, of course.

The notion of this team being able to legitimately compete for a SB before 2020 while in the same division as Brady and the Cheats is what I find to be absurd.

 

[Integrity28]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

I wasn't debating the term blow up...but rather the idea that it's what we've doing the past two years.  

I know, but that's where it'll end up. 

There is no standard by which a "blow it up" means you have to dump everything all in one season - that's the notion that is naive here. We have been steadily dumping the old over the past 2 years, by letting guys go, or by giving them contracts that we can walk away from next year. The rebuild has been in progress all along, and it's silly to suggest otherwise. No offense.

If we were to "blow it up" what exactly would be be doing? Getting rid of a small handful of older players - and then starting from square 1 on new player acquisition. My argument is that we've been accumulating those new players the past 2 years, with the intent to replace the old WHEN a replacement is found. So, it's more of a continuum for building, rather than an official declaration of "now is when we rebuild". 

We "blew it up" when we hit bottom and fired Idzik way sooner than a GM should be fired (right decision though). We're not in year 3 of a rebuild, with mixed results, and a commitment to the HC/GM that replaced Rex and Idzik... you can't "blow it up" every 2 years. Dumping all the oldies appears like part of the overall vision, given how they structured the veterans signings with contracts they can walk away from in 2017.

[Integrity28]

16 minutes ago, RoadFan said:

Exactly the wrong thing to do. 

Fraud Agency is overpaying for another team's crap. It is far more beneficial to players than franchises.  For every Snacks, there are ten Jairus Byrds. 

The Jets have holes everywhere on the roster, except maybe WR if Decker returns healthy. EVERYWHERE. 

"Speeding up the process" is a big part of the reason they are such a mess right now.

This team needs to spend high draft picks for 4 consecutive years addressing the OL, secondary, and pass rush.  And take another early 1st round shot at a QB, of course.

The notion of this team being able to legitimately compete for a SB before 2020 while in the same division as Brady and the Cheats is what I find to be absurd.

 

There are players to be had in FA. I'm not advocating being the team that jumps in first and blows their wad overpaying guys. I am outspoken against that sh*t every off-season. There are, however, valuable additions that can be made through FA. Steve McClendon is a perfect example of one of those signings.

It's absurd to whine that you want us to rebuild, and reject the notion of acquiring any players in FA. No team, none, do it exclusively through the draft. None.

[Integrity28]

Just now, Integrity28 said:

The notion of this team being able to legitimately compete for a SB before 2020 while in the same division as Brady and the Cheats is what I find to be absurd.

Then why watch at all?

[Integrity28]

33 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

I guess I didn't. I'll try to do better next time

Let's be honest, no you won't. 

[slats]

Most of the guys the Jets spent money on last year simply didn't work out. There's likely to be a heavy purge this offseason, and I don't think I'm in favor of too much of a spending spree. The biggest concern about this season is the fact that Bowles completely lost the locker room. He'll excise some of the cancers, but can he am Mac be trusted to bring in the types of vets who love the game and will be good soldiers - and good football players? Can't say I have all that much hope. 

I feel like Woody is saving a year's pay by keeping these two on, and that a complete overhaul is probably in the cards by this time next year. 

[Pcola]

This is a great point.  When you have no QB and need replacements at at least 3 OL, along with major holes in the secondary and LB, the roster calls for a major rebuild.

But when your owner has no idea on how to build a winning franchise and thinks turning over the front office over and over is the answer then the fans are screwed.

Bowles and Macc will do whatever they can to improve quickly to temporarily save their jobs.

Its kind of like those crash diets.  You give up carbs to lose 30 lbs quickly despite knowing you are going to put them back on as soon as you stop.  Instead of changing diet moderately and lowering your weight consistently.

We are stuck in the Yoyo rebuild.  Instead of making the best decision long term like maybe waiting on the 2018 draft to get our QB, they will dump a boat load of $$ on veteran Jags like Hoyer or Glennon.  Sell him to the owner and fans as the missing piece and prolong their firings for another season.

[Pcola]

5 minutes ago, slats said:

Most of the guys the Jets spent money on last year simply didn't work out. There's likely to be a heavy purge this offseason, and I don't think I'm in favor of too much of a spending spree. The biggest concern about this season is the fact that Bowles completely lost the locker room. He'll excise some of the cancers, but can he am Mac be trusted to bring in the types of vets who love the game and will be good soldiers - and good football players? Can't say I have all that much hope. 

I feel like Woody is saving a year's pay by keeping these two on, and that a complete overhaul is probably in the cards by this time next year. 

And why would these type of players choose the Jets over any other team?  No QB, no OL, old defense with holes everywhere, HC & GM in the hot seat.

 

[Hael]

In a real rebuild you have young draftees, project players and UDFA that might take a bit of maturing, and old grizzled vets who are cheap but with the right attitude, work ethic and knowledge that they can part with the young players.

The real hard part is getting the latter, b/c its rare to get them off the street like that and they won't know your system unless they've been there for awhile.  You also want to get them when they are old enough to be cheap (for instance Mangold still has a few years left, so his services will be too expensive).

You push as much money as possible into youth contracts (so they're cheap when you end up being competitive) and you dont splurge on good players (you can take a few swings at cheaper young players with problems.. eg the Michael Floyd types provided you think they aren't too much of a distraction) 

[Jetster]

3 hours ago, southtown24th said:

OK. HIGH second round pick for QB. Better?

I get a kick out of the "there are no 1st round QBs" statements. Maybe, maybe not, but if the NY Jets drafted Derek Carr or Russell Wilson in the 1st round in those drafts we wouldn't be in the state we are now. This whole, that's too high for that position, or he's a 2nd rounder, is so funny. It's a freaking crapshoot every year. And we need a lot more shoot & less crap.

[RoadFan]

42 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Then why watch at all?

I watched the Jets games in a passive fashion after the 2nd half of the Chiefs meltdown.  Knew the season was over early in the 3rd quarter of that game.

I emotionally disconnected and was flipping channels to other games a lot.  Just morbid curiosity until Petty played anyway.  I will stay "disconnected" until 2019 or 2020...

And you're right, guys like McClendon are OK.

 

[Beerfish]

Oh it will be a retool because our coach can't believe that he is actually as sh*tty of a coach as he is.

We will dump some players, sign a bunch more vets (including a QB)  and probably not get rid of the the guys that have bowles totally fooled in shel rich and revis