SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, HessStation said: In 1994, Sanders' best year it was 58%, in 2009 it was 60%. You're such a derp lol. Rotfl we’re talking nearly *2000* more completed passes here. Oh and no arbitrarily defined illegal contact past 5 yards either in 2009! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, SenorGato said: Rotfl we’re talking nearly *2000* more completed passes here. Oh my effing lord there were 4 less teams in 1994. You are hilariously bad at this. 1994: 19.5 comp per game 2009: 20.3 comp per game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 35 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said: Interesting: Over the last 20 seasons, no defender has allowed a lower passer rating when targeted than Richard Sherman of the Seahawks (minimum 300 times targeted). Lowest Passer Rating Allowed When Targeted Defender – Since 1995 (Reg & Post) (Minimum 300 Times Targeted) Richard Sherman 40.9 Deion Sanders 42.3 Tyrone Braxton 47.9 Patrick Surtain 52.3 Nick Collins 53.3 John Lynch 53.8 Not sure where this is from or what this is saying? Sherman isn't a guy that followed #1 WRs most of the time and this appears to be career numbers. Nobody is denying that Revis had poor years in 2012 and 2016 which will drag his career number down (up I guess for completion percentage). John Lynch? I would get open against him. 8 minutes ago, HessStation said: Except I just provided you with all the data that shows, Bailey's 06 season, does, indeed touch Revis' 06 Season. In fact, it looks better on paper. I agree that it may touch it and there is a case to be made, but IMO Revis was considerably better in 2009. The 2009 Jets were the #1 D and could not be run on. Teams had to pass and Rex forced them to throw at Revis, gave him little help and almost nobody did anything against him. The 2006 Broncos were an upper middle class D where most teams would prefer to throw against Darrent Williams RIP. Certainly worth an argument, but I will take Revis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodeawhodat Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: Not sure where this is from or what this is saying? Sherman isn't a guy that followed #1 WRs most of the time and this appears to be career numbers. Nobody is denying that Revis had poor years in 2012 and 2016 which will drag his career number down (up I guess for completion percentage). John Lynch? I would get open against him. I agree that it may touch it and there is a case to be made, but IMO Revis was considerably better in 2009. The 2009 Jets were the #1 D and could not be run on. Teams had to pass and Rex forced them to throw at Revis, gave him little help and almost nobody did anything against him. The 2006 Broncos were an upper middle class D where most teams would prefer to throw against Darrent Williams RIP. Certainly worth an argument, but I will take Revis. oh, but someone is. just follow the bukakke line and bring a towel with yah, i feel bad for the guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: Not sure where this is from or what this is saying? Sherman isn't a guy that followed #1 WRs most of the time and this appears to be career numbers. Nobody is denying that Revis had poor years in 2012 and 2016 which will drag his career number down (up I guess for completion percentage). John Lynch? I would get open against him. I agree that it may touch it and there is a case to be made, but IMO Revis was considerably better in 2009. The 2009 Jets were the #1 D and could not be run on. Teams had to pass and Rex forced them to throw at Revis, gave him little help and almost nobody did anything against him. The 2006 Broncos were an upper middle class D where most teams would prefer to throw against Darrent Williams RIP. Certainly worth an argument, but I will take Revis. For record keeping sake, this started with Gato claiming Bailey never had a season comparable to Revis' best. I pretty much proved he did. For me it was never about who was better in that one season. It's debatable. However Bailey had a much better career than Revis and is much more deserving of the HOF than Revis, although I'd agree Revis should be in. And keep reading Gato for 12-16....k thx bai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, HessStation said: Oh my effing lord there were 4 less teams in 1994. You are hilariously bad at this. Meh, still significantly fewer passes at a significantly lesser rate. That the league added teams and passing efficiency has gone up so much as a whole anyway only speaks to the dramatically increased proficiency in NFL passing. From there you’re still leaving the rule book out, the quality of athlete and player and so on and so forth out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, HessStation said: For record keeping sake, this started with Gato claiming Bailey never had a season comparable to Revis' best. I pretty much proved he did. For me it was never about who was better in that one season. It's debatable. However Bailey had a much better career than Revis and is much more deserving of the HOF than Revis, although I'd agree Revis should be in. And keep reading Gato for 12-16....k thx bai No you didn’t lol and even pretty much is heavy with the praise. You threw some raw numbers out and a quote that reiterated those were outstanding numbers. Same source considered Revis’ historic and comparable to great offensive performances of the past like Jerry Rice and Marino. Not sure why you’re still playing pretend on this one. At least with Sanders there is a shot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Just now, SenorGato said: Meh, still significantly fewer passes at a significantly lesser rate. That the league added teams and passing efficiency has gone up so much as a whole anyway only speaks to the dramatically increased proficiency in NFL passing. From there you’re still leaving the rule book out, the quality of athlete and player and so on and so forth out. The league adding teams also means it's more watered down with sh*ttier competition. The rule book really comes into play more the last 5-6 years (the 10's) more than in the 00's. But i'd agree a little bit hence the slightly higher rate. It's not like Deion played in the 70's or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, HessStation said: The league adding teams also means it's more watered down with sh*ttier competition. The rule book really comes into play more the last 5-6 years (the 10's) more than in the 00's. But i'd agree a little bit hence the slightly higher rate. It's not like Deion played in the 70's or something. Offset for defensive players by the increased emphasis on passing, the increased number of viable passers in the league, and the massive leaps made by the tippy top tier passers. Also given the sheernumber of schools that product pro talent, it is debatable whether the league got watered down with talent at that point. I always see the conversation as Revis or Sanders. I see Sanders as the Ruth to Revis’ Bonds. The former beat up on a league that was asking for it, the latter dominated the league at it’s pinnacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Ty Law > Darrelle Revis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, SenorGato said: Offset for defensive players by the increased emphasis on passing, the increased number of viable passers in the league, and the massive leaps made by the tippy top tier passers. I always see the conversation as Revis or Sanders. I see Sanders as the Ruth to Revis’ Bonds. The former beat up on a league that was asking for it, the latter dominated the league at it’s pinnacle. 19.5% to 20.3% per game bra. 4 sh*ttier QBs that would otherwise not be starting in the NFL. Sorry but you lose again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 What about the 2-5 yard passes that flood the NFL right now? McCown is one of the best QB's in the league right? Completion percentage stats are very misleading as are so many other stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Just now, prime21 said: What about the 2-5 yard passes that flood the NFL right now? McCown is one of the best QB's in the league right? Completion percentage stats are very misleading as are so many other stats. I'm handing it to Gato right now. He's been fighting out of his own corner like a caged rat since 9 am this morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, HessStation said: I'm handing it to Gato right now. He's been fighting out of his own corner like a caged rat since 9 am this morning. That is his typical. I have him on "ignore", but unfortunately, I have to see his posts when someone quotes him. Kill you with quantity, but no substance. Buffoonery at its best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prime21 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, HessStation said: I'm handing it to Gato right now. He's been fighting out of his own corner like a caged rat since 9 am this morning. Like when a wife lets us believe we are right even though we are wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, HessStation said: 19.5% to 20.3% per game bra. 4 sh*ttier QBs that would otherwise not be starting in the NFL. Sorry but you lose again. All I’d have to do is go from average to median. For instance, the median passing game in 1994 scored TDs at a below league average rate. In 2009? Above. Same for turnovers. Sooooo yeeeeahhh...Lets stop trying to prop this narrative up that there’s basically no difference in the NFL passing game between in those 25 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 7 minutes ago, HessStation said: I'm handing it to Gato right now. He's been fighting out of his own corner like a caged rat since 9 am this morning. Lol and I live in a dream land? Dude you’ve been in the same argument lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, prime21 said: Like when a wife lets us believe we are right even though we are wrong? Sort of. Yes. I'm allowing him to continue based on sympathy and it's cute that he trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Just now, HessStation said: Sort of. Yes. I'm allowing him to continue based on sympathy and it's cute that he trying. Woof, laying on the delusional thick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Just now, SenorGato said: Lol and I live in a dream land? Dude you’ve been in the same argument lol I told Nut he lived in dream land. I thought. You don't actually believe anything you're saying I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, SenorGato said: All I’d have to do is go from average to median. For instance, the median passing game in 1994 scored TDs at a below league average rate. In 2009? Above. Same for turnovers. Sooooo yeeeeahhh...Lets stop trying to prop this narrative up that there’s basically no difference in the NFL passing game between in those 25 years. Dear God, it's 15 years and I'm using statistical data to prop up the narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 Just now, HessStation said: You don't actually believe anything you're saying I think. Honestly thought that’s where you were at since trying the Bailey ‘06 nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, HessStation said: Dear God, it's 15 years and I'm using statistical data to prop up narrative. Oops, 15. I’m pretttttty sure that’s what I just did to knock it down. It is a bad narrative to try and push, no different from trying to prop up Bailey’s ‘06 against Revis’ ‘09. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, Scott Dierking said: Scotttttttaaaaaaaay, where were you in the Cubs thread last year? 50 pages of gold, you quality over quantity stud you, then you ghosted, por quuuuue?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, SenorGato said: Oops, 15. I’m pretttttty sure that’s what I just did to knock it down. It is a bad narrative to try and push, no different from trying to prop up Bailey’s ‘06 against Revis’ ‘09. actually all the analytical data would suggest I'm right on both fronts and that you're just making sh*t up as you go along. To conclude: Deion Sanders was better than Revis. Champ Bailey was better than Revis. Revis had 3-4 great years and was flat out dominant in 2009. During his best season in 2009, Champ Bailey had a comparably great season in 2006, one which you could debate was as good as Revis' in 2009. All the while Charles Woodson won the DPOY in 2009...which I'd agree, Revis should have won. Winner: HessStation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 12 minutes ago, SenorGato said: All I’d have to do is go from average to median. For instance, the median passing game in 1994 scored TDs at a below league average rate. In 2009? Above. Same for turnovers. Sooooo yeeeeahhh...Lets stop trying to prop this narrative up that there’s basically no difference in the NFL passing game between in those 25 years. To emphasize this point - the 16th ranked passing game by TD% in 2009 produced TDs at a better than league average rate. The 14th ranked offense in 1994 by the same stat. The same is true of INT rates. Less true by completion% in the 2009 was slightly below league average, but 1994 was even moreso. Sooooo yeah...again, there’s no point trying to paint the passing offenses of those years as equals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, SenorGato said: To emphasize this point - the 16th ranked passing game by TD% in 2009 produced TDs at a better than league average rate. The 14th ranked offense in 1994 by the same stat. The same is true of INT rates. Less true by completion% in the 2009 was slightly below league average, but 1994 was even moreso. Sooooo yeah...again, there’s no point trying to paint the passing offenses of those years as equals. So... half the league. Amazing insight. Bravo! Bravo!!! My math that was super difficult to figure out 1994=28 teams/2=14 2009=32 teams/2=16 Thank you everybody. Thank you very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crusher Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, HessStation said: actually all the analytical data would suggest I'm right on both fronts and that you're just making sh*t up as you go along. To conclude: Deion Sanders was better than Revis. Champ Bailey was better than Revis. Revis had 3-4 great years and was flat out dominant in 2009. During his best season in 2009, Champ Bailey had a comparably great season in 2006, one which you could debate was as good as Revis' in 2009. All the while Charles Woodson won the DPOY in 2009...which I'd agree, Revis should have won. Winner: HessStation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 12 minutes ago, HessStation said: actually all the analytical data would suggest I'm right on both fronts Lol so long as we ignore and downplay the pile of evidence to the contrary. I may not have Bleacher Report lists or SBN polls with 147 votes, but the analytical data supports all of my claims except one - that Revis is outright better than Sanders. Time will do that as Sanders essentially feasted off the end of the NFL’s deadball era whereas Revis entered the league as it really started emphasizing passing offenses. Sanders got a taste of that with the 49ers, but otherwise? Meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 4 minutes ago, HessStation said: So... half the league. Amazing insight. Bravo! Bravo!!! Not sure what point you’re making here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 31 minutes ago, The Crusher said: Ty Law > Darrelle Revis Dexter McDougle > Ty Law? 6 minutes ago, HessStation said: actually all the analytical data would suggest I'm right on both fronts and that you're just making sh*t up as you go along. To conclude: Deion Sanders was better than Revis. Champ Bailey was better than Revis. Revis had 3-4 great years and was flat out dominant in 2009. During his best season in 2009, Champ Bailey had a comparably great season in 2006, one which you could debate was as good as Revis' in 2009. All the while Charles Woodson won the DPOY in 2009...which I'd agree, Revis should have won. Winner: HessStation How do any of us win? I would disagree with most of this. I was a big Deion man, but in the running game, he was like 2016-2017 Revis his whole career. **** these compilers. FWIW, I'm a Lem Barney man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, SenorGato said: Lol so long as we ignore and downplay the pile of evidence to the contrary. I may not have Bleacher Report lists but the analytical data supports all of my claims except one - that Revis is outright better than Sanders. Time will do that as Sanders essentially feasted off the end of the NFL’s deadball era whereas Revis entered as the league at it really started emphasizing offense. Sanders got a taste of that with the 49ers, but otherwise? Meh. Except all my data can from Official NFL references except Bailey's 09 target and comp % against, which came from FO, the same site you used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HessStation Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said: Dexter McDougle > Ty Law? How do any of us win? I would disagree with most of this. I was a big Deion man, but in the running game, he was like 2016-2017 Revis his whole career. **** these compilers. FWIW, I'm a Lem Barney man. Not now Dom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, HessStation said: Except all my data can from Official NFL references except Bailey's 09 target and comp % against, which came from FO, the same site you used. As opposed to...what I cited lol? You’ve lost your marbles on this Hess. It’s cool we can hug it out later. In conclusion: Deion Sanders and Champ Bailey were compilers who feasted on inefficient QBs and offenses, fewer and lesser passing options, and a rulebook that allowed far more contact than today by defenses. Sanders, every bit the selfish greedy diva Revis is, was a pansy who took running plays off and shied away from tackling. He is the most overrated player of all time. Bailey never did anything close to Revis’ peak but otherwise was a great player. Revis, especially once time has offered some perspective and slowed sh*t down, is the GOAT CB. Maybe next time, Hess! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said: Dexter McDougle > Ty Law? How do any of us win? I would disagree with most of this. I was a big Deion man, but in the running game, he was like 2016-2017 Revis his whole career. **** these compilers. FWIW, I'm a Lem Barney man. It has gotten lost here- NYjunc's original premise was "best COVER corner". That is what I have been attacking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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