Jordan Palmer: Josh Allen is the most talented dude i've ever seen

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, BornJetsFan1983 said:

wait this is the guy that sucks against anyone that is good right? like 5 interceptions a game bad right? In college. 

In the pros it is tougher, players are all lights out good. 

Yeah this guy would be horrible pickup.

I remember Derek Carr falling to the second round for just that reason.

[FidelioJet]

6 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

There are a couple points of Josh Allen worth noting.

- This past season was the only time he had a dedicated QB coach, ever. 

- He was never one of the top recruite kidsin high school and wasn’t able to go to those camps and practices that the Rosens, Darnolds, Goffs, Mannings, etc all went to.

- This is where I push back against the Hackenberg comparisons. Hackenebrg was one of those too recruits who went through all of those things where mechanics are taught for years. His brain is shell shocked from the beating he took at Penn State. He can’t recover obviously.

- Allen has been playing off natural ability. If you’re the Jets making this investment you are banking on the idea he can learn proper mechanics and touch. Senior Bowl and Combine showed improvement, but the private work outs will be the big work out.

Really interesting. This is kinda a big deal.

[UnitedWhofans]

Less successful Big Ben = Blake Bortles

[Smashmouth]

I matters not who teaches you (when it comes to a QB coach) or how much they teach you in the end you still have to get under center in live NFL games and not fall apart. That unfortunately can not be taught nor can how fast your brain processes information.  You can't teach that "feel" the great ones always talk about having in the pocket and thats why its so damn hard to evaluate QB's in college.

Maybe a great teacher can make a QB who already has the brain power and already is a good QB in the NFL a little better with very subtle changes to mechanics improving accuracy and footwork. But I'm 100 % positive you can't teach a QB not to get nervous in the pocket or have that "feel" mentioned above. I mean when we talk about truly great QB's like Rodgers Brady Manning Brees ...do you think for a second those guys are not constantly working on their skills even in the offseason ? Of course they are that's why they're great.

So many variables with the QB position. Sometimes a good QB can be held down by a really bad coach See Jeff Fisher and Jared Goff ...I mean what would have happened to Goff if Fisher was given a few more years to totally destroy him ? Sometimes QB's go from bad coach to bad coach and never get a real shot. Its why I always say a good HC/OC is so important to a QB. I mean what happens to Dan Marino is hes drafted by the Cleveland Browns and not under the tutelage of Don Shula ? Maybe we are laughing now saying OMG imagine if we took that scrub Marino ?

[Smashmouth]

12 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

There are a couple points of Josh Allen worth noting.

- This past season was the only time he had a dedicated QB coach, ever. 

- He was never one of the top recruite kidsin high school and wasn’t able to go to those camps and practices that the Rosens, Darnolds, Goffs, Mannings, etc all went to.

- This is where I push back against the Hackenberg comparisons. Hackenebrg was one of those too recruits who went through all of those things where mechanics are taught for years. His brain is shell shocked from the beating he took at Penn State. He can’t recover obviously.

- Allen has been playing off natural ability. If you’re the Jets making this investment you are banking on the idea he can learn proper mechanics and touch. Senior Bowl and Combine showed improvement, but the private work outs will be the big work out.

All good points but without the pressure of the NFL Allen Performed Ok as a college QB not great but lets say Good. So while he has not had the teaching hes also not dealt with the tremendous pressure the NFL provides even against the bad teams. So the big question is can Allen deal with the intense pressure of the NFL and ironically that same question gets asked for just about every College QB . The only one I saw take a beating and still perform was Josh Rosen and IMHO the real scouts will see that point it out and pull the trigger on him before the others. So tank god Cleveland picks first

 

[Stark]

Josh Allen is a project, maybe not to the degree of Hack. but he is a project. He is not a top 10 pick. You don't say, "he may need to sit a year" to a top 10 pick at qb, you don't say "well he has to go to the right team", you don't say "he has to be with the right coach", You don't start making excuses for him before he is drafted if he is a legit top QB. odds are he will not be a long term starting QB.

Could Josh Allen be the anomaly and prove me and a lot of people wrong, and history... sure. and if he does good for him. but I am not banking on it.

ask yourself this. there are 32 teams in the league and of those 32 teams, what, half don't have a QB... so we are supposed to believe that Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield and Allen are all going to be good long term franchise QB's. uh, reality says no. Its Rosen and Darnold that IMO have the best chance to be what most teams do not have and haven't had in years.

 

[Smashmouth]

3 minutes ago, Stark said:

Josh Allen is a project, maybe not to the degree of Hack. but he is a project. He is not a top 10 pick. You don't say, "he may need to sit a year" to a top 10 pick at qb, you don't say "well he has to go to the right team", you don't say "he has to be with the right coach", You don't start making excuses for him before he is drafted if he is a legit top QB. odds are he will not be a long term starting QB.

Could Josh Allen be the anomaly and prove me and a lot of people wrong, and history... sure. and if he does good for him. but I am not banking on it.

ask yourself this. there are 32 teams in the league and of those 32 teams, what, half don't have a QB... so we are supposed to believe that Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield and Allen are all going to be good long term franchise QB's. uh, reality says no. Its Rosen and Darnold that IMO have the best chance to be what most teams do not have and haven't had in years.

 

100 % correct and a bad landing spot can also destroy what once was a great QB ..... David Carr can answer that question while looking up from the ground after 60 + sacks in a season maybe the same can be said for Hack who got battered in college

[JetBlue]

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

foot work - that's all...no big deal.  do that and he'll never miss.

Thats why we have Bridgewater and McCown on the roster.  Allen won't see the field for most if not all the season unless someone gets hurt.  He will have plenty of time to work on his flaws and be ready to compete for the starting job in 2019.   Just for a second assume he improves in those areas; we will have finally found our Franchise Quarterback.   If we take Rosen Im fine with that too but worried about his concussion history.   Those are the only two quarterbacks I hope we have a chance at (I am sure Darnold will be gone).   

[UnitedWhofans]

5 minutes ago, Stark said:

Josh Allen is a project, maybe not to the degree of Hack. but he is a project. He is not a top 10 pick.

Then I ask you, why is he projected to go there?

[Smashmouth]

1 hour ago, k-met57 said:

watch it again. his pocket presence and ability to keep his eyes down the field in the face of pressure really stood out to me. he was accurate, and threw a couple of touch throws that were awesome (someone, maybe you, said that all he had was a gun....which is stupid).

 

 

I have to say he did show very nice awareness and a soft touch as well 

[Smashmouth]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

Then I ask you, why is he projected to go there?

because analysts get a hard on with measureables and so do some NFL scouts

[MaxAF]

1 hour ago, Charlie Brown said:

JaMarcus Russell anyone?

Cause a guy can throw 70 yards on his knees doesn't make him a Great QB!

The key is can he play QB?

Period!!

And please don't be so naive as to look at some college highlight reel as if that decides something.

Hey Take a look at this!!

 

Ouch!!! ?

[Stark]

2 minutes ago, JetBlue said:

Thats why we have Bridgewater and McCown on the roster.  Allen won't see the field for most if not all the season unless someone gets hurt.  He will have plenty of time to work on his flaws and be ready to compete for the starting job in 2019.   Just for a second assume he improves in those areas; we will have finally found our Franchise Quarterback.   If we take Rosen Im fine with that too but worried about his concussion history.   Those are the only two quarterbacks I hope we have a chance at (I am sure Darnold will be gone).   

this is why you don't take him at 3,4,5,6,7,8,9.... not taking a guy that NEEDs a year to work on something that you most likely will not correct.

he is working with Jordan Palmer on his footwork and getting more accurate. Working with Palmer is overrated, I mean see example A: Hackenberg. Hack has worked with him every year and is still hot garbage. Also take into consideration that once games start and "bullets are flying" all this "changing of footwork" is going to go out the window it almost always does. It is easy to improve on 1 thing when that is all you are concentrating on, but once there is pressure you are going to revert to your natural tendencies. What do you think is going to happen when top quality players and defensive schemes are on the field. 

[SenorGato]

Note how everyone praises his physical tools and vague things like upside ceiling potential development rather than his actual skills at QB. 

[Stark]

2 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

because analysts get a hard on with measureables and so do some NFL scouts

B-I-N-G-O!!!!!

i knew i liked Al Swearengen

[Stark]

6 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Then I ask you, why is he projected to go there?

 

4 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

because analysts get a hard on with measureables and so do some NFL scouts

@Smashmouthwith the assist.

All coaches and scouts think they can fix anything. their ego's get in the way of reality. 

[FidelioJet]

19 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

I matters not who teaches you (when it comes to a QB coach) or how much they teach you in the end you still have to get under center in live NFL games and not fall apart. That unfortunately can not be taught nor can how fast your brain processes information.  You can't teach that "feel" the great ones always talk about having in the pocket and thats why its so damn hard to evaluate QB's in college.

Maybe a great teacher can make a QB who already has the brain power and already is a good QB in the NFL a little better with very subtle changes to mechanics improving accuracy and footwork. But I'm 100 % positive you can't teach a QB not to get nervous in the pocket or have that "feel" mentioned above. I mean when we talk about truly great QB's like Rodgers Brady Manning Brees ...do you think for a second those guys are not constantly working on their skills even in the offseason ? Of course they are that's why they're great.

So many variables with the QB position. Sometimes a good QB can be held down by a really bad coach See Jeff Fisher and Jared Goff ...I mean what would have happened to Goff if Fisher was given a few more years to totally destroy him ? Sometimes QB's go from bad coach to bad coach and never get a real shot. Its why I always say a good HC/OC is so important to a QB. I mean what happens to Dan Marino is hes drafted by the Cleveland Browns and not under the tutelage of Don Shula ? Maybe we are laughing now saying OMG imagine if we took that scrub Marino ?

While I normally would agree about caoching - this might be different when it comes to coaching - here's a scenario where footwork might actually be a thing.  I mean at PSU, you know Hack was getting all the coaching in the world and if his footwork wasn't great then it simply wasn't happening.

With someone so raw like this without the proper coaching - it's possible an NFL, full-time QB coach can fix some basic flaws that he simply never worked on before.

They're not saying Allen is dumb (on the contrary he's supposed to be pretty bright) or makes too many bad choices - his big flaw and it's a REALLY big one is he's not accurate consistently enough.  Not making excuses just saying the coaching thing may hold more water in this situation than others.

[JetBlue]

2 hours ago, k-met57 said:

serious question...do people think that college QB's come out a finished product? i mean seriously...they all have flaws....and they all have to work at it. I know we are all butt-hurt over Hack, but Jamarcus Rusell completed about 70% of his passes in college so did Geno...its about what they do once they are in the league....thats what matters.

I agree. This Hack comparison is so lame and tired.  This guy is just starting to scratch the surface of his potential.  The key is patience, coaching and giving him the weapons he will need to succeed.  Remember, odds are he will start the season carrying a clipboard.  

 

[Adoni Beast]

14 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

All good points but without the pressure of the NFL Allen Performed Ok as a college QB not great but lets say Good. So while he has not had the teaching hes also not dealt with the tremendous pressure the NFL provides even against the bad teams. So the big question is can Allen deal with the intense pressure of the NFL and ironically that same question gets asked for just about every College QB . The only one I saw take a beating and still perform was Josh Rosen and IMHO the real scouts will see that point it out and pull the trigger on him before the others. So tank god Cleveland picks first

 

My wish list is Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, with Rosen being in a class of his own. I think he’s going to be an amazing pro because he has fantastic arm talent, perfect mechanics, and very high football IQ. We should be so lucky to draft him.  

[k-met57]

44 minutes ago, Stark said:

we should.. @k-met57coming with the... well look at his highlights from the senior bowl... lol.yeah, because thats the best way to assess a player. 

if you guys think the senior bowl is a typical all star game then we have nothing to talk about. you can make the argument that some of the top guys are not playing, but the guys that are there...are going for it. this is a dumb argument....allen did a lot of good and a lot of bad in school...he showed our with good talent around him vs other good players...you can take that for whats it worth.

[Stark]

Just now, JetBlue said:

I agree. This Hack comparison is so lame and tired.  This guy is just starting to scratch the surface of his potential.  The key is patience, coaching and giving him the weapons he will need to succeed.  Remember, odds are he will not start the season carrying a clipboard.  

 

dude he wasn't a great QB in HS, or College. ... how is he going to all of a sudden become great. The Hack comp is wrong. Allen is more mobile and physically gifted, but what is correct is bad footwork, and accuracy. those 2 things historically do not get better in the NFL.. could Allen be Favre and be an anomaly, maybe, but doubtful

 

[Stark]

Just now, k-met57 said:

if you guys think the senior bowl is a typical all star game then we have nothing to talk about. you can make the argument that some of the top guys are not playing, but the guys that are there...are going for it. this is a dumb argument....allen did a lot of good and a lot of bad in school...he showed our with good talent around him vs other good players...you can take that for whats it worth.

lol, the senior bowl is kind of a joke... most of the good players get drafted after their junior season. the second half of the senior bowl is damn near the pro bowl level

[k-met57]

48 minutes ago, Stark said:

lol, highlights... of course. don't go by highlights.

can you tell me what "bad" throws he had at the senior bowl? 9-13 for 158 and 2 touchdowns...baker was what? 3-7 for 9 yards?

[Smashmouth]

2 minutes ago, Adoni Beast said:

My wish list is Rosen, Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, with Rosen being in a class of his own. I think he’s going to be an amazing pro because he has fantastic arm talent, perfect mechanics, and very high football IQ. We should be so lucky to draft him.  

well Barkley may be our ticket ... Cleveland and or the Giants take Barkley and Rosen is ours IMHO Hell even if they botrh take QB's Rosen may still be ours. Big Question ...are we smart enough to take him ... He reminds me of Matt Ryan Coming out of college not physically but all the talk before hand oh Matt Ryan has no arm for the NFL crap that was going around 

[k-met57]

1 minute ago, Stark said:

lol, the senior bowl is kind of a joke... most of the good players get drafted after their junior season. the second half of the senior bowl is damn near the pro bowl level

clearly we dont look at things the same way, so this argument isnt going anywhere. as the president of the josh allen fan club, i just hope i can count on your support after we select him with the 3rd pick in the 2018 NFL draft. thanks. 

[dbatesman]

2 hours ago, Untouchable said:

What the hell makes anyone think that the Jets can transition Mayfield from the simplistic, ragtag bullsh*t he ran at Texas Tech and Oklahoma to a complex WCO?

What makes anyone think that the Jets can keep Mayfield from getting into dumb sh*t away from the field in NYC?

This can go both ways.

At the end of the day, I’m willing to gamble on Allen’s ridiculous upside over Mayfield’s “fire” or “moxie” or whatever the hell you want to call it.

I don’t see what’s so outlandish about that.

moxie:

• made up
• not real
• what even is it

upside:

• as real as it gets baby
• check out that arm folks
• perfectly good reason to draft a guy whose biggest weakness is "playing quarterback"

[k-met57]

Just now, Smashmouth said:

well Barkley may be our ticket ... Cleveland and or the Giants take Barkley and Rosen is ours IMHO Hell even if they botrh take QB's Rosen may still be ours. Big Question ...are we smart enough to take him ... He reminds me of Matt Ryan Coming out of college not physically but all the talk before hand oh Matt Ryan has no arm for the NFL crap that was going around 

from what i remember Matt Ryan was not super impressive in college. i think he threw a lot of picks (like 20 or something)...the falcons kind of over drafted him at the time.

[Stark]

Just now, k-met57 said:

clearly we dont look at things the same way, so this argument isnt going anywhere. as the president of the josh allen fan club, i just hope i can count on your support after we select him with the 3rd pick in the 2018 NFL draft. thanks. 

when we select Allen, I will be pissed, then root like hell that he does something that maybe 2 QBs have done in the history of the NFL. 

[k-met57]

Just now, Stark said:

when we select Allen, I will be pissed, then root like hell that he does something that maybe 2 QBs have done in the history of the NFL. 

perfect, that would be the jetsiest or all jet things to do....

[MaxAF]

In all seriousness I hope Rosen is there at 3 but if not it will be Little Baker Mayfield or Allen.

[Stark]

1 minute ago, k-met57 said:

perfect, that would be the jetsiest or all jet things to do....

yeah is ridiculous to root for a player you don't like because he is on your team. luckily ill only have to root for him for maybe 2-3 years until we move on.

[Adoni Beast]

5 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

well Barkley may be our ticket ... Cleveland and or the Giants take Barkley and Rosen is ours IMHO Hell even if they botrh take QB's Rosen may still be ours. Big Question ...are we smart enough to take him ... He reminds me of Matt Ryan Coming out of college not physically but all the talk before hand oh Matt Ryan has no arm for the NFL crap that was going around 

With JPP gone and Gettleman’s draft history (40% of the time he has drafted DLinemen) Giants may be eyeing Chubb and giving every Jet fan their own personal chubb when we draft Rosen.

[Stark]

Just now, Adoni Beast said:

With JPP gone and Gettleman’s draft history (40% of the time he has drafted DLinemen) Giants may be eyeing Chubb and giving every Jet fan their own personal chubb when we draft Rosen.

we can only hope

[Untouchable]

If the senior bowl is meaningless...then why the hell watch it?

Why did we have multiple separate threads breaking down the weigh-ins and dissecting every throw guys like Allen and Mayfield made if it all amounts to f*ck all?

Something tells me that if Mayfield would’ve balled out instead of passing for less than 10 yards on like 7 attempts...it suddenly would’ve meant something...

[JetBlue]

12 minutes ago, Stark said:

dude he wasn't a great QB in HS, or College. ... how is he going to all of a sudden become great. The Hack comp is wrong. Allen is more mobile and physically gifted, but what is correct is bad footwork, and accuracy. those 2 things historically do not get better in the NFL.. could Allen be Favre and be an anomaly, maybe, but doubtful

 

It seems many of the top qb gurus don't agree or we wouldn't even be having this conversation.  Allen is a top 5, top 10 talent at worst.  Regardless of what the Jets do or don't do, he will go at the top of the draft.