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Chris & Woody's Butler

Thread for those of us giving Gase a clean slate.

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10 hours ago, Jet9 said:

The way he is with the media should have you guys jumping for joy. Yeah, this is probably his last chance at being a legit NFL coach, and I hope he takes the bull by the horns. That said, his 'take no s**t' approach I find refreshing. The media sucks, guys. You know it and I know it. Sports, news, music, all clowns. If you choose to ignore this I really can't help you. 

 

Give him a chance. And by that I mean, in NY temperament, this year and up to week 8 of next year. We are way too reactionary, generally speaking. 

His “take no sh*t” approach led him to jettison very talented players and left him with one of the worst rosters in football.

Having a “take no sh*t” approach doesnt work.  You have to know who you are dealing w/ and treat that player appropriately.

Gase has alot to learn about coaching grown men.

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15 minutes ago, genot said:

You would depress everyone at a playboy mansion party. everything is a worst case scenario. We'll try and resign Bell and Crowder. If not, they'll be replaced. The one player you didn't mention was Robby. Im concerned about losing him. He would be alot harder to replace than a Crowder, or even Bell. Next years draft is loaded at WR. DE in a 4-3. Leo, Jenkins, Polite, Copeland. They'll experiment. Every team has holes in our division. If we went on every fan forum in the league. We'd here about what they're team is lacking in order to compete. Don't take my first sentence too seriously. Pretty much just ribbin you791969096_OscarMadison.jpg.f2ba7094652b3d39aec9567817c65ffd.jpg

 

Do not get me wrong.  I'm excited about the future of the Jets because Macc is gone and we have Sam Darnold.  The Gase/Douglas combo seems promising. 

I'm just expressing how frustrating it is for people to actually be giving Macc some semblance of "credit" for this upcoming 9-win season that has yet to happen.  And I'm also pointing out that Douglas has a ton of work to do to overcome Macc's many failures. 

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5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Do not get me wrong.  I'm excited about the future of the Jets because Macc is gone and we have Sam Darnold.  The Gase/Douglas combo seems promising. 

I'm just expressing how frustrating it is for people to actually be giving Macc some semblance of "credit" for this upcoming 9-win season that has yet to happen.  And I'm also pointing out that Douglas has a ton of work to do to overcome Macc's many failures. 

Mac was the GM when we won 10 games with Fitzpatrick at QB. Why did we win 10 games. To me, it was the play of the QB. Our talent level was never as bad as it appeared. We just had shoddy QB play, and a bad coaching staff.

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51 minutes ago, genot said:

Mac was the GM when we won 10 games with Fitzpatrick at QB. Why did we win 10 games. To me, it was the play of the QB. Our talent level was never as bad as it appeared. We just had shoddy QB play, and a bad coaching staff.

And then what happened the next 3 years?

If you're going to give the credit to Macc for one 10-win, non-playoff season, you can't excuse his failings the next 3 offseasons. 

As I mentioned before, no GM over that 4-year span drafted a higher % of players who are no longer in the league, so the blame doesn't all fall on Bowles.  Hell, not even the MAJORITY of blame falls on Bowles.  Macc drafted bad players, period, which the rest of the league also determined to be failures. 

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On 7/17/2019 at 10:06 PM, Warfish said:

To talk about the Jets of course.

You must have missed the deep exchanges today on if completion percentage is or isn't a metric for tracking/evaluating QB accuracy.

Spoiler: apparently it's not anymore.  At least not here.

P.S. I do love a good haggis....

it is part of it but what about touchdowns vrs interception ration or yards per attempt

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16 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

And then what happened the next 3 years?

If you're going to give the credit to Macc for one 10-win, non-playoff season, you can't excuse his failings the next 3 offseasons. 

As I mentioned before, no GM over that 4-year span drafted a higher % of players who are no longer in the league, so the blame doesn't all fall on Bowles.  Hell, not even the MAJORITY of blame falls on Bowles.  Macc drafted bad players, period, which the rest of the league also determined to be failures. 

part of that falls on Bowles we drafted from the same pool as everyone else. why cant we develop players? Is it the players we drafted or the coaching staff and how they used the players. in Maccs defense Bowles devalued dlinemen and used them for clogging space rather then attacking the offense, for that he wanted quicker lbers to penetrate and attack. we did not have linebackers in that mold outside of the tiny linebacker. 

I am interested in seeing the defense with the aded pieces and not seeing corners 10 yrds from the line of scrimmage

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4 minutes ago, rammagen said:

part of that falls on Bowles we drafted from the same pool as everyone else. why cant we develop players? Is it the players we drafted or the coaching staff and how they used the players. in Maccs defense Bowles devalued dlinemen and used them for clogging space rather then attacking the offense, for that he wanted quicker lbers to penetrate and attack. we did not have linebackers in that mold outside of the tiny linebacker. 

I am interested in seeing the defense with the aded pieces and not seeing corners 10 yrds from the line of scrimmage

 

Good lord.  C'mon.  We're talking about players that are OUT OF THE LEAGUE.  Meaning NO COACH could develop the following players Macc drafted:  Chad Hansen, Christian Hackenberg, ArDarius Stewart, Devin Smith, Lorenzo Mauldin, Dylan Donohue, Jarvis Harrison, Juston Burris, ....the likes of those do NOT fall on Todd Bowles. 

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16 minutes ago, rammagen said:

it is part of it but what about touchdowns vrs interception ration or yards per attempt

TD to INT would be a metric as well, yes.  It too has flaws (an INT off a WR's chest is the same as an INT thrown directly to the CB).

Tell me how/why you think Yards Per Attempt is a measure of accuracy? 

Is a QB who goes 1 for 5 for 90 yards (18 YPA) more accurate than a QB who goes 4 for 5 for 85 Yards (17 YPA)?

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1 hour ago, genot said:

Mac was the GM when we won 10 games with Fitzpatrick at QB. Why did we win 10 games. To me, it was the play of the QB. Our talent level was never as bad as it appeared. We just had shoddy QB play, and a bad coaching staff.

It wasn't, it was Decker and Marshall balling out and the Jets should've realized that instead of being held captive by Fitzpatrick the following year. That's just another example of Mac being bad at his job. 

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2 minutes ago, slats said:

It wasn't, it was Decker and Marshall balling out and the Jets should've realized that instead of being held captive by Fitzpatrick the following year. That's just another example of Mac being bad at his job. 

The same Marshall who, after leaving the Jets, hasn't caught for more than 200 yards in a season again?

The same Decker who is now out of the NFL and after that season never came close to that level again?

Both Decker and Marshall had close to their best overall career seasons in 2015 with Fitz.  

Now, their talent and effort most certainly was a huge part of that productive passing year, but to pretend that Fitz wasn't also a part of it is just silly.  Typical for the all-or-nothing ways of JN these days, but silly none the less.  That year's team was a team effort.  No one carried anyone.  :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, Warfish said:

Now, their talent and effort most certainly was a huge part of that productive passing year, but to pretend that Fitz wasn't also a part of it is just silly.  Typical for the all-or-nothing ways of JN these days, but silly none the less.  That year's team was a team effort.  No one carried anyone.  :rolleyes:

Fitz is a perfect example of a QB who can look better on paper than in real life. He never should've been the Jets QB the following year. Once he established his asking price, the Jets should've said thanks, no thanks, and moved on. 

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10 minutes ago, slats said:

Fitz is a perfect example of a QB who can look better on paper than in real life. He never should've been the Jets QB the following year. Once he established his asking price, the Jets should've said thanks, no thanks, and moved on. 

This.  Thinking Fitz was the answer at QB is damn near the stupidest sh*t I've ever seen in my life.  He won me over that season with the passion and tenacity he displayed but anyone that has watched the league long enough knew week 18 was was the real Fitz.  The minute he choked away the season; the coaching staff should/FO should have immediately turned their attention to providing Geno, Petty or Hack with an opportunity to be the future.  Instead, they let that bearded douche hold them hostage. 

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10 minutes ago, slats said:

Fitz is a perfect example of a QB who can look better on paper than in real life. He never should've been the Jets QB the following year. Once he established his asking price, the Jets should've said thanks, no thanks, and moved on. 

Regarding Fitz, Mensa Mike painted himself into a corner by not having any reasonable plan to replace him essentially negotiating against himself. Fitz's agent should have given McCaggnan half his 10% agent fee.

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22 minutes ago, slats said:

Fitz is a perfect example of a QB who can look better on paper than in real life. He never should've been the Jets QB the following year.

Sure he should, because the alternative was Geno Smith, and he's horrible and always was.

Quote

Once he established his asking price, the Jets should've said thanks, no thanks, and moved on. 

By "moved on" you mean "give up on the season" by throwing Geno back out there to fail horribly?

The season was not lost that 2nd year purely because of Fitz.  Injuries destroyed that season from the start.  As did Mac's failure to close the deal (or move on and sign someone, anyone, other than Geno Smith instead).

We took a shot, it failed.  Who cares what the owner paid Fitz, wasn't our money, did no damage to our cap position going forward, and nothing was lost, we didn't lose out on some great player or other QB to take that shot.  I'll never understand all the hand-wringing to this day over that season.  Yeah, it was disappointing, but there was no "do this and we're great" solution, and certainly not at the QB position that year. 

A "shoulda cut Fitz after the best production of all time for a Jets QB" is really a "shoulda started Geno Smith again" argument, and that argument never wins. 🤣

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On 7/18/2019 at 10:27 AM, Peace Frog said:

You sure it's made of wax?

Ear wax

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24 minutes ago, Warfish said:

By "moved on" you mean "give up on the season" by throwing Geno back out there to fail horribly?

Geno improved from year one to year two, despite the fact that the team overall was worse. Then he got punched in the face. I would've signed another, far less expensive veteran, and let that vet and Geno battle it out. Sure. Fitz completed less than 60% of his passes in 2015 with Decker and Marshall making circus catches every week. Someone in the organization should've caught on. They wound up handing that season over to Petty, who sucked far worse than Geno ever did. 

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2 hours ago, slats said:

It wasn't, it was Decker and Marshall balling out and the Jets should've realized that instead of being held captive by Fitzpatrick the following year. That's just another example of Mac being bad at his job. 

We needed to field a team. Hopefully one, that could win some games, while we rebuilt. None of those players were ever going to be long term solutions. I think Mac got caught up with our failures at that position, and made some bad decisions along the way.

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21 hours ago, Warfish said:

So you're saying he was 18-24 vs. guys who didn't suc like Bowles sucked? :-k

 

Good point. Having a winning record against a terrible HC doesn't mean anything.

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10 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Good lord.  C'mon.  We're talking about players that are OUT OF THE LEAGUE.  Meaning NO COACH could develop the following players Macc drafted:  Chad Hansen, Christian Hackenberg, ArDarius Stewart, Devin Smith, Lorenzo Mauldin, Dylan Donohue, Jarvis Harrison, Juston Burris, ....the likes of those do NOT fall on Todd Bowles. 

 man not all of the players failures can be on the gm alone, I question the ability of the prior coaching staff to get the best out of the players you can say they all sucked and blame the gm. I also blame the staff for not using players correctly and to their strengths. There is no defense of Bowles in those regards. MEANING BOWLES SUCKED AS MUCH if not more then MACC.

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10 hours ago, Warfish said:

TD to INT would be a metric as well, yes.  It too has flaws (an INT off a WR's chest is the same as an INT thrown directly to the CB).

Tell me how/why you think Yards Per Attempt is a measure of accuracy? 

Is a QB who goes 1 for 5 for 90 yards (18 YPA) more accurate than a QB who goes 4 for 5 for 85 Yards (17 YPA)?

when averaged across a season it would point to the type of routes ran and when the ball was thrown an the success of the team. I will use Tannehill as an example the yr before gase got there and the yr after

these are the stats below there is a 3 game difference but look at the yard per attempt with the yards per game do you think it is possible in 3 games he could have thrown for 1200 yards.

Gases' offense is a short pass orientated ball control type offense his rating goes up to 93.5 percent but most of his other stats drop.

His raises his  yards per attempt looks like it is only 1/2 a yard (but he is throwing the ball 200 times less)but look at yards per game the difference is 30 yards per game (granted it is possible he could have thrown for 3 400 yrd games to close the gap but i doubt it).  So for throwing the ball less but having a higher yards per attempt when he is throwing the ball he is throwing it to the correct receiver on the route

Now look at the interceptions I always look for a 2 to 1 ratio as a sign of a qb having a good yr. It is really hard to say how this ends up because he is averaging close to 1 interception per game but he also had less sacks and sack yards yards as they got rid of the ball faster.

I think everything needs to be looked at as whole but yards per attempt yards per game have always stood out for me. I am curious to see how this woks with Sam who is a better qb that can throw into tighter places the Ryan ever could.

So I would guess for Sam something similar to the 2016 season Tannehill put up close to or right 500 attempts a rating somewhere in the 90s with a 2 to 1 td versus interceptions. The kicker part is I dont know if he will cross 300 yards per game in passing next season just because the way offense is ran. Maybe Gase changes some or maybe Sam gets hot. It should be interesting.

 

I premise this with I am not a gase fan I hope he does well because that means the Jets are winning, but I question how he can fail forward and get so much support as being a qb guru (he has only worked with one young qb that is still in the leage and that is Tannehill) with out people remembering the hot mess he left in Miami with the rest of the team. I hope he learned what to do and what not to do. But he bears a certain responsibility to the failure. It was not all Mike T. The same here the failure of the last few years here was not all Maccs' fault.  Bowles has certainly failed in several aspects of the job with the Jets  to me that includes failure to develop and use players to their strengths. Something I hope this staff does is use players to their strength.

http://www.nfl.com/player/ryantannehill/2532956/careerstats

2016 Miami Dolphins 13 389 261 67.1 29.9 2,995 7.7 230.4 19 4.9 12 3.1 74T 37 11 29 216 93.5
 
2015 Miami Dolphins 16 586 363 61.9 36.6 4,208 7.2 263.0 24 4.1 12 2.0 54T 57 13 45 420

88.7

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 man not all of the players failures can be on the gm alone, I question the ability of the prior coaching staff to get the best out of the players you can say they all sucked and blame the gm. I also blame the staff for not using players correctly and to their strengths. There is no defense of Bowles in those regards. MEANING BOWLES SUCKED AS MUCH if not more then MACC.


The players I listed did not work out with any other team with different coaching staffs. That removes the Bowles variable. I’m done explaining this very simple point.

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14 hours ago, Joe W. Namath said:

His “take no sh*t” approach led him to jettison very talented players and left him with one of the worst rosters in football.

Having a “take no sh*t” approach doesnt work.  You have to know who you are dealing w/ and treat that player appropriately.

Gase has alot to learn about coaching grown men.

Was he the GM in Miami? And also, at some point, and this is just me ranting a bit, but maybe pro athletes can STFU and listen to their GD bosses once in a while. And the boss can take his medicine too if he screws up, I'm fine with that. Maybe that's what happened to Gase in Miami. I don't follow them like I do the Jets and a few others so feel free to school me. I'm open to that. Miami isn't exactly a great organization, not that WE are either.

 

Yeah, they (athletes) sell the tickets, yadda yadda. But I look at the NBA and pray to God that what's going on there doesn't infect MLB, the NFL, or the NHL.

Coach: 'Hey man, play some D.'

Player: 'Nah, we're a Super Team and we don't do that.'

Umm.... NBA is a sh*t league, TV ratings notwithstanding.

Not picking on you or calling you out or anything (please know that) but have you ever managed people? I have and do every day. I have sh*t canned multiple people who brought in the $ but weren't team players and were toxic to the staff and the every day process of how a business works. 'Treat players appropriately' sounds like a cop out for people with talent to not buy in to what a team/business/organization is all about. 

Sports are different, sure. But not THAT different. Also, look at our recent 'Player's Coaches'. They ******* sucked. Rex was good for a bit but that's it.

 

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21 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 


The players I listed did not work out with any other team with different coaching staffs. That removes the Bowles variable. I’m done explaining this very simple point.

the point is not that simple Yes there were busts but to blame one person for the failure to build players is beyond just the GM The coaching staff has fault and blame there as well. So your point is just that your point I dont have to share it, I think it is irrational to blame player failure one person. we drafted from the same pool of talent but you think just players on the jets failed because the gm sucked. I got news for you players everywhere fail, the players that failed in Miami is that gms fault or the coaches fault? the same is here as well they both share the blame equally

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19 hours ago, Jet9 said:

Was he the GM in Miami? And also, at some point, and this is just me ranting a bit, but maybe pro athletes can STFU and listen to their GD bosses once in a while. And the boss can take his medicine too if he screws up, I'm fine with that. Maybe that's what happened to Gase in Miami. I don't follow them like I do the Jets and a few others so feel free to school me. I'm open to that. Miami isn't exactly a great organization, not that WE are either.

 

Yeah, they (athletes) sell the tickets, yadda yadda. But I look at the NBA and pray to God that what's going on there doesn't infect MLB, the NFL, or the NHL.

Coach: 'Hey man, play some D.'

Player: 'Nah, we're a Super Team and we don't do that.'

Umm.... NBA is a sh*t league, TV ratings notwithstanding.

Not picking on you or calling you out or anything (please know that) but have you ever managed people? I have and do every day. I have sh*t canned multiple people who brought in the $ but weren't team players and were toxic to the staff and the every day process of how a business works. 'Treat players appropriately' sounds like a cop out for people with talent to not buy in to what a team/business/organization is all about. 

Sports are different, sure. But not THAT different. Also, look at our recent 'Player's Coaches'. They ******* sucked. Rex was good for a bit but that's it.

 

I agree with you but and this is a big but the vets were complaining as well about gase it were a few stars yes I get your point but when vets who have been around the league start to complain there is some smoke there is fire

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