80's "I need fantasy assistance" thread

[PS17]

 

Uggghh dont be like that.... pick up your sword and spar.... 

Do you own any shares of Puka?

or are you just trying to grossly overpay for his services while you convince yourself he actually is Cooper Kupp but 22 years old?

What exactly do we disagree about?

I like Puka have him in one league sold him in another.

As I mentioned two hours ago, I offered Josh Jacobs and a 2025 1st, so the equivalent of two first rounders, which was declined pretty quickly. I believe in him. People get so hung up on draft capital in dynasty but once a player pops, throw it out the window. If JSN were putting up Puka’s stat line he’d be close to Chase and Jefferson territory. I know KeepTradeCut isn’t perfect, but you kinda got fleeced. Don’t make this personal. I like you as a poster. Good job getting him in your other league. 
 

 

[Lurker89]

1 minute ago, PS17 said:

As I mentioned two hours ago, I offered Josh Jacobs and a 2025 1st, so the equivalent of two first rounders. I believe in him. People get so hung up on draft capital in dynasty but once a player pops, throw it out the window. If JSN were putting up Puka’s stat line he’d be close to Chase and Jefferson territory. I know KeepTradeCut isn’t perfect, but you kinda got fleeced. Don’t make this personal. I like you as a poster. Good job getting him in you other league. 
 

 

Lol man... I thought you got me PS17.... especially with your Carlin Avatar...

 

Im not mad... I'm having fun.

You still haven't answered  the most important question....

 

Do you own Puka anywhere?

 

 

By week 7 standards sure I got fleeced just like I super fleeced my friend in my other league.

By week 1 standards when the deal was made I did the fleecing.

 

99% of the time flipping your late 4th for an early 2nd is by far the right process and i would do it again today just how i did it then ... sell here after buying there

In a league where I was flush with WRs and will need a qb or RB at 2.01 next year I jumped on that opportunity and bought him in a league I needed wr depth. If he didnt continue to pop off like virtually all of his contemporaries then I secured the bag just like should. I believed  in him enough to make sure I still held a share if I was gonna sell one... I think thats pretty big brained but whatever 🤪

[PS17]

Just now, Lurker89 said:

Lol man... I thought you got me PS17.... especially with your Carlin Avatar...

 

Im not mad... I'm having fun.

You still haven't answered  the most important question....

 

Do you own Puka anywhere?

 

 

By week 7 standards sure I got fleeced just like I super fleeced my friend in my other league.

By week 1 standards when the deal was made I did the fleecing.

 

99% of the time flipping your late 4th for an early 2nd is by far the right process and i would do it again today just how i did it then ... sell here after buying there

In a league where I was flush with WRs and will need a qb or RB at 2.01 next year I jumped on that opportunity and bought him in a league I needed wr depth. If he didnt continue to pop off like virtually all of his contemporaries then I secured the bag just like should. I believed  in him enough to make sure I still held a share if I was gonna sell one... I think thats pretty big brained but whatever 🤪

You’re right; I didn’t answer your question. I am in two dynasty leagues and do not own Puka in either. If you’re a portfolio player who plays in a ton of leagues, then sure, it’s “good process” (perhaps) to flip Puka for an early 2. But as I mentioned earlier, that pick is already dart throw territory, and I’d rather hold the late rounder who pops early instead of throwing another dart. I’ll end this very simply. If today someone offered a 2nd for your Puka in your other league, you’d smash decline without second thought. Probably wouldn’t even warrant a counter. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, PS17 said:

Feels like an easy decline for the other guy. AJ is producing almost Jefferson-like numbers and is healthy. You’re sending two injured players and a boom/bust WR2. But hey, nothing to lose by offering.

Yep.  Sometimes I just send offers cold to see if I can at least get a counter offer....

[Jetsfan80]

@Lurker89 I think I value Puka a little higher than you at this stage (wish I had him) based on what you're saying about him but there's nothing wrong with cashing in when you can get a good offer after having nabbed a guy early on who was on almost no one's radar when you got him. 

Like @Barry McCockinner I've never done a dynasty league either so I have no idea what "good value" even looks like, but from what you're saying it sounds like you got it.

I dunno what his ceiling is, but I do like that he's still able to carve out a strong target share even with Kupp back.  Bodes well for his future.  But like you say, for all we know, this is the best we'll ever see out of him.

TL; dr version:  You bought insanely low and are selling high.  Can't hate on that.  Basically what you're supposed to do, especially in re-draft but also in dynasty.

[PS17]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@Lurker89 I think I value Puka a little higher than you at this stage (wish I had him) based on what you're saying about him but there's nothing wrong with cashing in when you can get a good offer after having nabbed a guy early on who was on almost no one's radar when you got him. 

Like @Barry McCockinner I've never done a dynasty league either so I have no idea what "good value" even looks like, but from what you're saying it sounds like you got it.

I dunno what his ceiling is, but I do like that he's still able to carve out a strong target share even with Kupp back.  Bodes well for his future.  But like you say, for all we know, this is the best we'll ever see out of him.

TL; dr version:  You bought insanely low and are selling high.  Can't hate on that.  Basically what you're supposed to do, especially in re-draft but also in dynasty.

he’s selling low. Very very low. I’ll bow out now 

[Lurker89]

24 minutes ago, PS17 said:

You’re right; I didn’t answer your question. I am in two dynasty leagues and do not own Puka in either. If you’re a portfolio player who plays in a ton of leagues, then sure, it’s “good process” (perhaps) to flip Puka for an early 2. But as I mentioned earlier, that pick is already dart throw territory, and I’d rather hold the late rounder who pops early instead of throwing another dart. I’ll end this very simply. If today someone offered a 2nd for your Puka in your other league, you’d smash decline without second thought. Probably wouldn’t even warrant a counter. 

All picks are dart throws.

They are also the most liquid asset we have.

Portfolio player or not the principles remain the same.

"Nobody ever lost money taking a profit" - Bernard Baruch 

I sold for a drastic profit from my purchase price at time of drastically high uncertainty. The Rams were expected to be trash. I could either hold and potentially be left with nothing or do what I did and sell while also buying for less than I sold for. 

Meanwhile you are over here trying to buy bitcoin at 68K.

Week 1 KTC Value and week 7 KTC are vastly different. Today a second doesn't get it done because it's a drastic underpay. Week 1 it was a drastic overpay for a rookie WR from the Big 12 who had a total of 1749 yards his entire college career. He has more catches through 6 games(50) in the pros than he did in any full season in college (48). 

[Lurker89]

33 minutes ago, PS17 said:

he’s selling low. Very very low. I’ll bow out now 

Bow out please ...I'll enjoy the Puka I still have and the second I still have while you um .... yeah...have no shares of Puka. 

Acting like a prognosticator while I was the one actually on top of him as a prospect and actively moving him for profit while simultaneously buying him at a price you wish you could have, It was literally a win win move for me sell 1 while buying another at a discount the price I recieved.

Why didn't you buy week 1 like I did homie? Or week 2 or week 3......

[PS17]

17 minutes ago, Lurker89 said:

Bow out please ...I'll enjoy the Puka I still have and the second I still have while you um .... yeah...have no shares of Puka. 

Acting like a prognosticator while I was the one actually on top of him as a prospect and actively moving him for profit while simultaneously buying him at a price you wish you could have, It was literally a win win move for me sell 1 while buying another at a discount the price I recieved.

Why didn't you buy week 1 like I did homie? Or week 2 or week 3......

Very solid points.

[Lurker89]

50 minutes ago, PS17 said:

Very solid points.

For the record most of the  JN Friends I've made started with arguments marked by vitriol and distemper 😘. 

@Jetsfan80 @Barry McCockinner

[PS17]

25 minutes ago, Lurker89 said:

For the record most of the  JN Friends I've made started with arguments marked by vitriol and distemper 😘. 

@Jetsfan80 @Barry McCockinner

Love ya buddy. Dynasty Bros 4 Life 

[nycdan]

Okay.  Need some advice.

My starting RBs are Breece and Aaron Jones.  Breece is out this week and I don't have a strong RB3.

What I do have is Kirk Cousins as my backup QB (Hurts is my starter).  So I get trade offers frequently, mostly trash.

One team offered me trash this week, but he is starting Carr if he doesn't make a move.  His RBs are Mostert, J Taylor, and James Cook.  I'm thinking of offering Cousins and Jamaal Williams (throwin) for Jonathan Taylor and Kyler Murray.  

I like having a strong backup but not sure I can win with Cousins anyway, and if Hurts stays healthy, I only need to cover his bye.  Having Taylor would give me a better RB to start this week and depth down the road if someone gets hurt.

There are other options out there, but this one could get done.  Thoughts?

Cousins and Jamaal Williams for Jonathan Taylor and Kyler Murray.

 

[nycdan]

One other possibility is a team that has Stroud and Watson as their QBs.  I could offer Cousins and Jamaal Williams for Watson and one of his RBs.  He has CMC, Kamara and Etienne.  Obviously not CMC and doubt I'd get Etienne but could try.  Kamara?

[Lurker89]

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

Okay.  Need some advice.

My starting RBs are Breece and Aaron Jones.  Breece is out this week and I don't have a strong RB3.

What I do have is Kirk Cousins as my backup QB (Hurts is my starter).  So I get trade offers frequently, mostly trash.

One team offered me trash this week, but he is starting Carr if he doesn't make a move.  His RBs are Mostert, J Taylor, and James Cook.  I'm thinking of offering Cousins and Jamaal Williams (throwin) for Jonathan Taylor and Kyler Murray.  

I like having a strong backup but not sure I can win with Cousins anyway, and if Hurts stays healthy, I only need to cover his bye.  Having Taylor would give me a better RB to start this week and depth down the road if someone gets hurt.

There are other options out there, but this one could get done.  Thoughts?

Cousins and Jamaal Williams for Jonathan Taylor and Kyler Murray.

 

 

1 hour ago, nycdan said:

One other possibility is a team that has Stroud and Watson as their QBs.  I could offer Cousins and Jamaal Williams for Watson and one of his RBs.  He has CMC, Kamara and Etienne.  Obviously not CMC and doubt I'd get Etienne but could try.  Kamara?

If I'm recieving Cousins and Jamal Williams offers for JT its an instant reject let lone adding in anything else.

Nobody rode out the JT suspension to trade him for that.

You flat out stated you are not sure  Cousins can win for you.  Williams has one good year on his resume, last year. I dont really see any of those as viable deals.

With Williams playing in 30 minutes there is no time to trade him this week anyway.

What's on your waiver?

If Roschon clears Concussion protocol he could be very viable this week. If he doesn't clear then Foreman gets another crack at it and had a few big games for Carolina last year.

[nycdan]

8 minutes ago, Lurker89 said:

 

If I'm recieving Cousins and Jamal Williams offers for JT its an instant reject let lone adding in anything else.

Nobody rode out the JT suspension to trade him for that.

You flat out stated you are not sure  Cousins can win for you.  Williams has one good year on his resume, last year. I dont really see any of those as viable deals.

With Williams playing in 30 minutes there is no time to trade him this week anyway.

What's on your waiver?

If Roschon clears Concussion protocol he could be very viable this week. If he doesn't clear then Foreman gets another crack at it and had a few big games for Carolina last year.

I held off on the trade.  My issue was really about this week so I'll pick up whatever I can (Latavius Murray probably) for RB2.  Roschon and Foreman are both rostered already.  12-team league and pickings are slim.  I agree that JT would be a good haul for me, but since he has CMC is starting Mostert and Cook this week, Taylor is not essential to his team with 4 very good RBs on the roster.  Meanwhile he is starting Carr and I think Cousins would be an upgrade for him at QB.  He's got to overpay a bit for that.  I may take another look next week but for now, I'll sit tight and see how the week goes. 

Thanks.   

[Jetsfan80]

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 

 

Flex spot options this week (0.5 point PPR):

• Gabe Davis (@ NE)
• Rashee Rice (vs LAC)
• Kareem Hunt (@ IND)

Notes:

• NE's entire secondary is hurt it seems this week, but games @ NE are tricky and Gabe historically sucks against the Pats.
• Love Rice's matchup with the Chargers 
• It'd be hard to put Hunt in over either of the 2 WRs for me but he also has a good matchup

Thoughts?

[Barry McCockinner]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 

 

Flex spot options this week (0.5 point PPR):

• Gabe Davis (@ NE)
• Rashee Rice (vs LAC)
• Kareem Hunt (@ IND)

Notes:

• NE's entire secondary is hurt it seems this week, but games @ NE are tricky and Gabe historically sucks against the Pats.
• Love Rice's matchup with the Chargers 
• It'd be hard to put Hunt in over either of the 2 WRs for me but he also has a good matchup

Thoughts?

Pretty easy Rice start imo.

[JustInFudge]

26 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 

 

Flex spot options this week (0.5 point PPR):

• Gabe Davis (@ NE)
• Rashee Rice (vs LAC)
• Kareem Hunt (@ IND)

Notes:

• NE's entire secondary is hurt it seems this week, but games @ NE are tricky and Gabe historically sucks against the Pats.
• Love Rice's matchup with the Chargers 
• It'd be hard to put Hunt in over either of the 2 WRs for me but he also has a good matchup

Thoughts?

Rice

[Dcat]

28 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 

 

Flex spot options this week (0.5 point PPR):

• Gabe Davis (@ NE)
• Rashee Rice (vs LAC)
• Kareem Hunt (@ IND)

Notes:

• NE's entire secondary is hurt it seems this week, but games @ NE are tricky and Gabe historically sucks against the Pats.
• Love Rice's matchup with the Chargers 
• It'd be hard to put Hunt in over either of the 2 WRs for me but he also has a good matchup

Thoughts?

i've got a couple of teams where I could use these guys this week. I like Davis this week.  NE very vulnerable right now.  I actually thik this is the week that hunt takes over in Cle. All 3 are solid optuons with good floors and big upside. 

[RoadFan]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 

 

Flex spot options this week (0.5 point PPR):

• Gabe Davis (@ NE)
• Rashee Rice (vs LAC)
• Kareem Hunt (@ IND)

Notes:

• NE's entire secondary is hurt it seems this week, but games @ NE are tricky and Gabe historically sucks against the Pats.
• Love Rice's matchup with the Chargers 
• It'd be hard to put Hunt in over either of the 2 WRs for me but he also has a good matchup

Thoughts?

All things equal, I would prefer Davis.  They aren’t this week. 

Windy weather and possible rain in Foxboro tips the scales toward for Rice for me.  

[Lurker89]

Well having Calvin Ridley in one redraft league and Olave in another is f*cking me twice as hard so thats.... fun...

[Lurker89]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 

 

Flex spot options this week (0.5 point PPR):

• Gabe Davis (@ NE)
• Rashee Rice (vs LAC)
• Kareem Hunt (@ IND)

Notes:

• NE's entire secondary is hurt it seems this week, but games @ NE are tricky and Gabe historically sucks against the Pats.
• Love Rice's matchup with the Chargers 
• It'd be hard to put Hunt in over either of the 2 WRs for me but he also has a good matchup

Thoughts?

My head says Gabe (minus weather)

My peen says Rice.... go with the peen.

[Barry McCockinner]

I know this was a sh*t pass but Olave gave up way before we knew that. How are we feeling Olave owners?

 

[Jetsfan80]

43 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

I know this was a sh*t pass but Olave gave up way before we knew that. How are we feeling Olave owners?

 

Nearly all top flight WRs are psycho divas.  Concerning, sure, but I’m never surprised by this stuff anymore.

The Carr experiment is going great in New Orleans that’s for sure.

@T0mShane

[Barry McCockinner]

16 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Nearly all top flight WRs are psycho divas.  Concerning, sure, but I’m never surprised by this stuff anymore.

The Carr experiment is going great in New Orleans that’s for sure.

@T0mShane

He didn't play well but put the tying TD pass in a wide open TE's hands only for it to be dropped. Would have been 31 points on the board in a bad game from him. That TE is a giant bastard - if he caught that and they went for 2 and missed I would have hit the season long rollover square pool for 2500. I think there's a good chance they would have gone for 2 there.

He's off to his worst start since his rookie year stat wise. Not sure what to take from that. He's proven the ability to change coaches/systems without much trouble so can't just blame "learning a new system".

 

[Dcat]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Nearly all top flight WRs are psycho divas.  Concerning, sure, but I’m never surprised by this stuff anymore.

The Carr experiment is going great in New Orleans that’s for sure.

@T0mShane

Olave doesn't fight for the ball.  He is vastly overrated.

[Dcat]

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89  @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob @Jetsfan80

Some bye-pocalypse  help for a bunch of my teams please:

yep... lineup help, mostly ugly situations. Reply if you want to help.

Pick 2:
Jaleel McLaughlin vs Packers
D'Onta Foreman vs Raiders
Michael Wilson @ Seattle

Select one:
Josh Downs vs Browns
Elijah Moore @ Indi
OBJ vs Lions
Michael Wilson @ Seattle

QB:  Purdy @ Minnesota or Howell @ NYG?

Pick 2 (1 RB + 1 Flex): 
Zach Evans vs Steelers
Zack Moss vs Browns
Josh Downs vs Browns
Keaontay Ingram @ Seattle
Lat Murray @ NE

 

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, Dcat said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89  @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob @Jetsfan80

Some bye-pocalypse  help for a bunch of my teams please:

yep... lineup help, mostly ugly situations. Reply if you want to help.

Pick 2:
Jaleel McLaughlin vs Packers
D'Onta Foreman vs Raiders
Michael Wilson @ Seattle

Select one:
Josh Downs vs Browns
Elijah Moore @ Indi
OBJ vs Lions
Michael Wilson @ Seattle

QB:  Purdy @ Minnesota or Howell @ NYG?

Pick 2 (1 RB + 1 Flex): 
Zach Evans vs Steelers
Zack Moss vs Browns
Josh Downs vs Browns
Keaontay Ingram @ Seattle
Lat Murray @ NE

 

Jaleel + Foreman

Downs

Purdy (but it’s close, either should be good options)

Evans.  I already said Downs earlier, so if you need another, I’d probably go Murray

[Barry McCockinner]

16 minutes ago, Dcat said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89  @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob @Jetsfan80

Some bye-pocalypse  help for a bunch of my teams please:

yep... lineup help, mostly ugly situations. Reply if you want to help.

Pick 2:
Jaleel McLaughlin vs Packers
D'Onta Foreman vs Raiders
Michael Wilson @ Seattle

Select one:
Josh Downs vs Browns
Elijah Moore @ Indi
OBJ vs Lions
Michael Wilson @ Seattle

QB:  Purdy @ Minnesota or Howell @ NYG?

Pick 2 (1 RB + 1 Flex): 
Zach Evans vs Steelers
Zack Moss vs Browns
Josh Downs vs Browns
Keaontay Ingram @ Seattle
Lat Murray @ NE

 

1st group seems like an easy choice to me?

Shooting for ceiling on the second group. OBJ has been open a bunch where they haven't targeted him. He could have a breakout week any time. Very low floor though, so depends what you need here I guess. I'd probably go with Elijah if I wanted the highest floor of that group just due to what he's been getting for targets and opposing D. Don't like Wilson at all.

That last group is really rough. Murray is more valuable now that Harris is out but sheesh. Could go Ingram over him - probably a coin toss but the NE game script will likely favor Murray getting a lot of 2nd half carries. Evans scares me because we don't know how many, if any carries he's getting. Browns D is tough but Moss has been the guy so far even w/Taylor getting paid. McVay has been difficult to predict when it comes to RB carries - I avoid Rams RB's if I can.

[RoadFan]

6 hours ago, Dcat said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89  @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob @Jetsfan80

Some bye-pocalypse  help for a bunch of my teams please:

yep... lineup help, mostly ugly situations. Reply if you want to help.

Pick 2:
Jaleel McLaughlin vs Packers
D'Onta Foreman vs Raiders
Michael Wilson @ Seattle

Select one:
Josh Downs vs Browns
Elijah Moore @ Indi
OBJ vs Lions
Michael Wilson @ Seattle

QB:  Purdy @ Minnesota or Howell @ NYG?

Pick 2 (1 RB + 1 Flex): 
Zach Evans vs Steelers
Zack Moss vs Browns
Josh Downs vs Browns
Keaontay Ingram @ Seattle
Lat Murray @ NE

 

Jaleel and Foreman

Wilson

Purdy.  (Giants are due to play a good game.)

This is tough;  Downs and Wilson?  (Evans had good college tape but I think it’s gonna be a committee and hot hand approach.  I don’t want to mess with the Browns defense too much.  Easier to throw on Seattle and game script might dictate AZ has to throw)

 

 

[Jetsfan80]

32 minutes ago, Barry McCockinner said:

Shooting for ceiling on the second group. OBJ has been open a bunch where they haven't targeted him. He could have a breakout week any time. Very low floor though, so depends what you need here I guess.

Definitely get what you’re saying here but it’s simply never been a thing with Lamar to have a 3rd receiver do much of anything.  Folks thought the Todd Monken effect would change things there but it just hasn’t happened.  Andrews and Zay Flowers are the only startable receiving options for that team unless one of them gets hurt.  Force OBJ to prove he can do it before throwing him in your lineup.

On top of that, I just don’t see Beckham having much upside at all at this point.  Dude had one great year like 8 years ago and since then what’s he been?  Even if he’s been open a bunch this year I just don’t see him ever putting up a monster line.

Downs, to me, has a higher ceiling AND a much higher floor.  

[Jetsfan80]

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 
 

Kyren Williams just got put on IR, meaning he’s out until Week 12 at minimum.

I currently have Jefferson in my lone IR spot.  Is Kyren droppable in a 10-team league, or should I continue to hold onto him?  

[chirorob]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 
 

Kyren Williams just got put on IR, meaning he’s out until Week 12 at minimum.

I currently have Jefferson in my lone IR spot.  Is Kyren droppable in a 10-team league, or should I continue to hold onto him?  

On 10/17/2023 at 8:19 PM, Jetsfan80 said:

 

I'd keep him unless you really nreally roster spot 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, chirorob said:

I'd keep him unless you really nreally roster spot 

I don’t at the moment but I know I will eventually.   I tend to be pretty impatient with injury situations like these, lol.  

Strongly considering picking up Stroud at the moment to shrink the QB market.  

[Dcat]

45 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

@Paradis @Barry McCockinner @JiF @RoadFan @Lurker89 @Dcat @PS17 @#27TheDominator @chirorob 
 

Kyren Williams just got put on IR, meaning he’s out until Week 12 at minimum.

I currently have Jefferson in my lone IR spot.  Is Kyren droppable in a 10-team league, or should I continue to hold onto him?  

Depends entirely on the strength of your roster.  Tough to evaluate his importance 5 weeks from now vs your immediate needs.  Big needs? Then cya Kyren.  Comfortable right now?  Then hold on for a bit until you need the roster spot.  Only 1 IR spot?  That's sooo pre-concussion protocol, pre-covid, etc...  dude.  Every league needs at least 3.