Sam could still turn it around... these QB's did after early struggles ~ ~ ~

[slimjasi]

6 minutes ago, jgb said:

I'm not sure of this at all. League-worst QB play drags everything down. Remember Colts with Peyton Manning versus Curtis Painter?

Isn't it interesting how everyone always says "we have to put better pieces around Sam" but no one ever seems to say "we have to get Mims Crowder a better QB." 

If you watched this year fairly, the second statement makes a lot more sense than the first. 

 

 

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

Isn't it interesting how everyone always says "we have to put better pieces around Sam" but no one ever seems to say "we have to get Mims Crowder a better QB." 

If you watched this year fairly, the second statement makes a lot more sense than the first. 

 

 

I say it. Often.

Already predicted Mims will be a pro bowler within 2 seasons if we get average or better QB play. You can imagine how the Darnold bros responded because it doesn't fit their narrative that the Jets ruined poor wittle Sammy Whammy.

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Isn't it interesting how everyone always says "we have to put better pieces around Sam" but no one ever seems to say "we have to get Mims Crowder a better QB." 

If you watched this year fairly, the second statement makes a lot more sense than the first. 

Especially since Mims in particular performed a lot better with Joe Flacco's corpse than with Darnold:

• Mims with Flacco:  8.9 yards per target
• Mims with Darnold:  7.7 yards per target

And there were games where Darnold barely even looked Mims' way.  He averaged 7.5 targets per game with Flacco.  Just 4.1 targets per game with Darnold.

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Especially since Mims in particular performed a lot better with Joe Flacco's corpse than with Darnold.

The difference between Mims and Chris Godwin/DK Metcalf is who is throwing each of them the ball.

These three and Julio Jones are the most physically gifted WRs in football.

[slimjasi]

Just now, jgb said:

You can imagine how the Darnold bros responded because it doesn't fit their narrative that the Jets ruined poor wittle Sammy Whammy.

Maybe the Jets ruined him, maybe they didn't. I'm honestly not sure. I do think Gase was an awful hire for him.  But the salient point to me is that he hasn't earned year 4 here. 

If he wanted to be the QB here net season, he needed to play well enough to keep us from drafting his replacement. Average QB play would have easily saved his job here. He couldn't do it. 

[pdxgreen]

Joe Douglas at the Jets post draft pres conference after selecting Peneii Sewell and re-signing Joe Flacco as backup quarterback....  the Jet Nation server fries.

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

Maybe the Jets ruined him, maybe they didn't. I'm honestly not sure. I do think Gase was an awful hire for him.  But the salient point to me is that he hasn't earned year 4 here. 

If he wanted to be the QB here net season, he needed to play well enough to keep us from drafting his replacement. Average QB play would have easily saved his job here. He couldn't do it. 

His best professional game was his first. Can you honestly think of a moment where he zoned in and just took over a game? Broke the will of the other team while imposing his own? 

That's what FQBs do several times a year.

[RedBeardedSavage]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

The reason I raise Painter is because he was the worst-rated QB that year he started, just like Darnold. They also had similar per-game numbers. A FQB makes his own weaponz, not the other way around. If anyone is holding back anyone, it's not our supporting cast holding back Darnold, it's the reverse.

I don't agree with that at all.

Besides... Painter had Reggie Wayne that whole year.

Isn't he a HOF finalist this year?

I don't even care about Darnold anymore. I just think it's absolutely ridiculous to assume a new, rookie quarterback not named Trevor Lawrence, is going to improve this team. 

There are so many other ways we can bolster this team, and should bolster this team, before we take another quarterback high again. 

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I don't agree with that at all.

Besides... Painter had Reggie Wayne that whole year.

Isn't he a HOF finalist this year?

I don't even care about Darnold anymore. I just think it's absolutely ridiculous to assume a new, rookie quarterback not named Trevor Lawrence, is going to improve this team. 

There are so many other ways we can bolster this team, and should bolster this team, before we take another quarterback high again. 

Deshaun Watson improved in all categories after removing the best WR in the NFL with a bad OL and terrible run game but hey, it's OK to disagree.

 

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

Maybe the Jets ruined him, maybe they didn't. I'm honestly not sure. I do think Gase was an awful hire for him.  But the salient point to me is that he hasn't earned year 4 here. 

If he wanted to be the QB here net season, he needed to play well enough to keep us from drafting his replacement. Average QB play would have easily saved his job here. He couldn't do it. 

i think darnold would be better with better coaching and better overall talent around him.  but that's not going to make him all of a sudden not throw into triple coverage while ty johnson stands there wide open for a dump off option spreading his hands out wide.  the problem here is darnold's in the moment decision making.  he is who he is.  people like to compare darnold to tannehill and how he will thrive sans gase.  tannehill's stats under gase were way better than darnold's, and a lot here don't realize this.  tannehill was already a good qb who made the playoffs under gase but was injured too often.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

I don't agree with that at all.

You can disagree with it all you want.  Its an objective truth supported by a huge pile of data.  It's like saying water is wet. 

QB's are the horse that pull the cart.  Weppinz just compliment good QB's.  And good QB's also make O-Lines look better thanks to quality pre-snap reads and getting the ball out quickly.  

[RedBeardedSavage]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You can disagree with it all you want.  Its an objective truth supported by a huge pile of data.  It's like saying water is wet. 

QB's are the horse that pull the cart.  Weppinz just compliment good QB's.  And good QB's also make O-Lines look better thanks to quality pre-snap reads and getting the ball out quickly.  

All that's fine and true when you're talking about mediocre rosters.

This offense is a dumpster fire. You saw last week. The Pats rushed 3 and were on top of Darnold in 2 seconds. Don't tell me that's an ordinary situation.

These are outlier times, even for this organization. 

[RedBeardedSavage]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

Deshaun Watson improved in all categories after removing the best WR in the NFL with a bad OL and terrible run game but hey, it's OK to disagree.

 

What's their record?

[slimjasi]

14 minutes ago, jgb said:

His best professional game was his first. Can you honestly think of a moment where he zoned in and just took over a game? Broke the will of the other team while imposing his own? 

That's what FQBs do several times a year.

Agreed.

Probably the most impressed I have ever been with Sam was at halftime of the Dallas game last year. That was the peak of my belief in him (followed by immediately after his first start, as you mentioned). 

More broadly, Sam's most impressive games were all in year 1 and year 2. Not only did he have no "great" games this year, you can argue that he barely even had a "good" game this year. Four games with 200+ yards passing in 12 starts. How does the organization confidently move forward with that? 

[elvispookie]

1 hour ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

You want to compare the Saints roster on offense to ours? Respectfully, I think that proves my point. 

You are missing the point.  How good was that Saints offense before Brees? Wasnt.  He comes in, a frachise qb in the making, and elevates it.  Now everything around him is perfect.  Franchise players elevate those around him.. Sam clearly doesnt elevate anyone.  In a super lost season, like we just had, I find it hilarious that old man Flacco started making Perriman look really good.  Flacco was elevating his play.. and Flacco is done.  But you get that young FQB in place.. thats what he is supposed to do.  

I will go to my grave saying this.. if you need a good line, good WRs, a good TE and a consistent running game.. you're not a franchise QB.   

[JohnnyLV]

I had sex with a famous movie star actress once (before she was famous). The odds of her calling me for a booty call is much higher than  Sam finding the light.

I have used Brees myself as the argument for him blossoming but to be honest I just don't see it.

In Sam's first year he seemed super coachable and seem to get better each game.

But now he seems WAY more like Sanchez and Geno just never ever learning and developing and making the same mistakes over and over, almost stubbornly.

It's possible but super unlikely.

[elvispookie]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

FQBs make their own weaponinz, not the other way around.

Exactly brother.. that was my point. When Brady was starting out he had Troy Brown and David Patton.   The only reason they seemed legit was because of Brady.  He made them.. same with Brisby. It's insane to me that people can think Sam is gonna be good if he only has 

A line

3 Really good WRs

1 Really good TE

Good Running game

If you need that.. you are not a FQB.  Period.

[elvispookie]

Just now, johnnysd said:

I had sex with a famous movie star actress once (before she was famous). The odds of her calling me for a booty call is much higher than  Sam finding the light.

I have used Brees myself as the argument for him blossoming but to be honest I just don't see it.

In Sam's first year he seemed super coachable and seem to get better each game.

But now he seems WAY more like Sanchez and Geno just never ever learning and developing and making the same mistakes over and over, almost stubbornly.

It's possible but super unlikely.

Who was she? you cant just throw that out here and walk away... you cant

[FidelioJet]

31 minutes ago, jgb said:

Age doesn't matter once since it's a 1-year rental, is my point. And you conveniently hammer the least important point because you feel you have the advantage while ignoring the more important one: Tannehill was and is at least one standard deviation a better player than Darnold.

Tannehill's $118M contract with Titans proves the point. Age doesn't matter much for QBs until 35ish. Darnold might not see the average value of one year of this contract for the rest of his career.

Are you suggesting Darnold has no trade value?  

And a reason to support that is that Tannehill became a FA and wasn’t traded?

Sam will be traded for at least a 3rd round pick.  You know that.  Assuming you do, why the argument?

[jeremy2020]

3 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

He's only played 3 years.

They do not have make that decision this off-season.

"In order to extend the contract, the team must inform the player during the period between the last regular season game of his third contract year and May 3 of the next League Year (Art. 7, Sec. 7, (a), 31)."

https://frontofficenfl.com/2017/03/27/nfl-rookie-contracts-explained-fifth-year-option/

2 hours ago, FidelioJet said:

So, just so I understand.  I wasn't aware of this.

If we bring him back this year we're locked into him for his 5th year?

No, the Jets can decline his 5th year and he'll still be under contract for next season. However, the number of teams that decline the 5th year option and keep the player is extremely low. I'm sure it's happened, but more often the player is traded or cut. 

[kelly]

4 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

I had sex with a famous movie star..

...i understand how you would not want to mention the LAST name but could you at least tell us his FIRST name ?   ?

[jgb]

7 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

Are you suggesting Darnold has no trade value?  

And a reason to support that is that Tannehill became a FA and wasn’t traded?

Sam will be traded for at least a 3rd round pick.  You know that.  Assuming you do, why the argument?

I do think he has value. I voted a 3rd in the poll few days back. Granted, I think we give back like a 5th in that scenario. I'm just saying we ain't getting a 1st (some do think that) and a 2nd is really unlikely.

[jgb]

16 minutes ago, elvispookie said:

Exactly brother.. that was my point. When Brady was starting out he had Troy Brown and David Patton.   The only reason they seemed legit was because of Brady.  He made them.. same with Brisby. It's insane to me that people can think Sam is gonna be good if he only has 

A line

3 Really good WRs

1 Really good TE

Good Running game

If you need that.. you are not a FQB.  Period.

Austin Collie was on pace for like 1200 yards and 14 TDs under Manning before he got concussed. He had like 300 yards and 1 TD the rest of his career without Manning.

[jgb]

28 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

What's their record?

I hoped this would be your response.

So let me get this straight -- Jets are not a good QB away from being good, but good QBs should be maligned for being on losing teams.

[jgb]

[RedBeardedSavage]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

I hoped this would be your response.

So let me get this straight -- Jets are not a good QB away from being good, but good QBs should be maligned for being on losing teams.

The Jets are a good team away from being good. 

Look at it like this... even if rookie Justin Fields comes in here and plays at Deshaun Watson's 2020 levels... we're still going to be 4-12.

Why can't we build the rest of the team first? When the Texans were good, their roster was good and Deshaun Watson lead them to the playoffs. When they're bad, their roster was bad, and Deshaun Watson lead them to the 3rd overall pick. 

By the way, what's the biggest difference between that Texans offense from last year, and the one from this year? Or how about the Bills offense from last year and the one from this year? 

I'm saying, assuming he has an 'expected' showing at the combine, we take Ja Marr Chase instead of asking Justin Fields to Braxton Berrios his way down the field :). 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

The Jets are a good team away from being good. 

Look at it like this... even if rookie Justin Fields comes in here and plays at Deshaun Watson's 2020 levels... we're still going to be 4-12.

Why can't we build the rest of the team first? When the Texans were good, their roster was good and Deshaun Watson lead them to the playoffs. When they're bad, their roster was bad, and Deshaun Watson lead them to the 3rd overall pick. 

By the way, what's the biggest difference between that Texans offense from last year, and the one from this year? Or how about the Bills offense from last year and the one from this year? 

I'm saying, assuming he has an 'expected' showing at the combine, we take Ja Marr Chase instead of asking Justin Fields to Braxton Berrios his way down the field :). 

Because even perennially bad teams like the Jets rarely pick in top 2 of draft and we have two excellent QB prospects this year, as well. If not now, when??

[Jetsfan80]

43 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

All that's fine and true when you're talking about mediocre rosters.

This offense is a dumpster fire. You saw last week. The Pats rushed 3 and were on top of Darnold in 2 seconds. Don't tell me that's an ordinary situation.

These are outlier times, even for this organization. 

 

I've heard enough about "outliers" on this board for a lifetime.  You can pile on the excuses all you'd like.  I'm not here for it.  Produce or GTFO.  He hasn't in 3 seasons.  You don't get 3 years of mulligans in this league.

[RedBeardedSavage]

3 minutes ago, jgb said:

Because even perennially bad teams like the Jets rarely pick in top 2 of draft and we have two excellent QB prospects this year, as well. If not now, when??

We got two picks in the first next year, and I think it's a fair assumption that at least one of them is in the top 10 - whether we took Fields or Wilson @ 2 this year. 

So the question really is, do you think Justin Fields or Zach Wilson is that much better than anything available next year? I don't.

I believed that about Trevor. And if we had the #1 we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

[Jetsfan80]

36 minutes ago, elvispookie said:

Exactly brother.. that was my point. When Brady was starting out he had Troy Brown and David Patton.   The only reason they seemed legit was because of Brady.  He made them.. same with Brisby. It's insane to me that people can think Sam is gonna be good if he only has 

A line

3 Really good WRs

1 Really good TE

Good Running game

If you need that.. you are not a FQB.  Period.

 

And if he got all that'd, he'd just be a bad QB in a great situation.  Nothing more.  And whichever team had him would be looking to upgrade ASAP.  Similar to the way Andy Reid looked to move on from Alex Smith.  And Smith was actually pretty good...

[jgb]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

We got two picks in the first next year, and I think it's a fair assumption that at least one of them is in the top 10 - whether we took Fields or Wilson @ 2 this year. 

So the question really is, do you think Justin Fields or Zach Wilson is that much better than anything available next year? I don't.

I believed that about Trevor. And if we had the #1 we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

Better and likely achievable at reasonable cost. If there are better prospects than Fields next year, they will go top 5 and QB needy-teams rarely trade down. It might not even be possible to trade up.

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Better and likely achievable at reasonable cost. If there are better prospects than Fields next year, they will go top 5 and QB needy-teams rarely trade down. It might not even be possible to trade up.

Now we understand where we truly disagree.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Now we understand where we truly disagree.

Tell me

[RedBeardedSavage]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Tell me

• I think there are prospects like Fields and Wilson every year 
• I don't think we're in a good position (from an offensive talent standpoint) to develop a quarterback prospect
• I think we're better suited spending another year building the offensive line and skill position players before we take another young quarterback

You're a true Fields believer. So I get it. 

That's where we disagree. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

• I think there are prospects like Fields and Wilson every year 
• I don't think we're in a good position (from an offensive talent standpoint) to develop a quarterback prospect
• I think we're better suited spending another year building the offensive line and skill position players before we take another young quarterback

You're a true Fields believer. So I get it. 

That's where we disagree. 

Not a true Fields believer. A believer that QB is hardest position to scout/extrapolate to the pros. But when you don't have one, and you're picking near top of draft, that's when you take a shot.