John Beck: “Zach Wilson needs to reinvent himself”

[section314]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

How do coaches make a guy worse in something as direct as screen-pass accuracy?

My guess is not enough work on footwork? If you recall, Saleh said many times this year, especially when White took over, that they were working hard on his footwork to improve the accuracy issues. Thank goodness Saleh finally took a big step in becoming a HC by getting rid of the clown who was in charge of that "minor" task, and totally revamped the offensive staff. Is Zach blameless? Absolutely not. JV kids in HS can do some of that stuff. The bigger picture though is that the Jets put a kindergarten teacher in charge of teaching advanced calculus, which is basically what the jump from college to the NFL is. I'm glad the Jets are finally bringing in competent people to increase the value of a very expensive asset. If it's not happening within two years, I agree, time to sell.

[section314]

6 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

Well if Zach is on the team as backup this year he’ll probably get a chance to play. But imo again you do this from the start not in the middle. Maybe he comes into training camp with a better understanding of what an NFL offense is about. Not the same as at BYU which is a big play offense long passing plays. Percentage wise that doesn’t work in the current version of the NFL. He did operate ok as a game manager early in the season but he needed a good running game to be successful. Like any other team in the NFL if you don’t have it hard to move the ball and score points. The backups to Breece proved insufficient. But I still think whatever they say the Jets intend to trade Zach. Get his salary off the books and whatever compensation they can get. I think benching him the way they have and openly saying they want to replace him makes it hard for him to return. And I think there will be a market for him. 

Great points and can't argue with any of them. The bolded is what scares me. Lynch and Shanahan get him for maybe a 3-4, instead of the haul they offered two years ago. You and I both know how that will probably turn out.

[Rangers9]

44 minutes ago, Warfish said:

The results on the field speak for themselves.  

Denial is a very common human reaction to disappointment and failure.

 

I watched the games and don’t think about him the same way you do. He had ok games too and at times ran the offense and won games. And Ws no matter how flawed are what it’s all about. A number of Brady’s Ws were marginal wins and he didn’t have good stats or play well but he’ll take the W. If you’re saying Zach’s irredeemable and finished disagree. There’s still a high talent level. Are his mistakes fixable we’ll see I think he has an NFL career and probably as a starter. Can he be a franchise QB. He has the talent big arm mobility better than most NFL QBs but can he do it consistently?

[Bugg]

2 hours ago, peekskill68 said:

I'm gonna have to disagree on this one.  Nothing suggests the owner, GM or HC have given up on Zach.  Right or wrong, I believe they've convinced themselves the problem was coaching and have every intention of sticking it out with him.  Another reason why I feel a Rodgers/Tannehill bridge is more probable than a longer term commitment to Carr/Garoppolo.

Amusing that under Johnson(spare cutting edge offense Gase, another disaster, another story, technically hired by his brother, Chris, and Mangini, different thing altogether). gone through this cycle of hiring a defensive coordinator as their head coach. Invariably former DC entrusts the offense to somebody else as the offensive coordinator. The Jets head coach by design has almost nothing to do with the offense, other than complaining about it. Would note some very good coaches who were defensive coaches (Parcells, Bellichick, Tom Laundry) understood how offenses worked having spent their careers defensing them . Those guys ran good offense and were involved.

Never the case here.

But with the Jets-Edwards, Ryan,Bowles and  now Saleh-such coaches totally farmed out the offense, have no clue nor involvement in it. So when it sputters, throw the OC into the volcano and get a new one, all over again. Heck, Hackett's own dad was flung into the volcano for Mike Heimerdinger by Herman Edwards. it'd goddamn intergenerational dysfunction. How does this imbecile Robert Wood Johnson the IV continually hire the same kinds of people who make the same huge mistake over and over? They've learned nothing and forgotten everything.

"Coach, enough about "toughness" .  If you get this job, can you assure me we'll have an offense that passes effectively and  scores points?"

[dcJet]

I don't see fear in Zach.  I saw fear in Rosen. 

Zach just panics and plays too fast like Sanchez did.  

[Rangers9]

4 minutes ago, section314 said:

Great points and can't argue with any of them. The bolded is what scares me. Lynch and Shanahan get him for maybe a 3-4, instead of the haul they offered two years ago. You and I both know how that will probably turn out.

If the Jets really want to get rid of him they’ll take the 3 and the 20 million remaining on his salary will help pay for Carr etc. It will be interesting to see what other orgs think about Zach and if willing to trade for him. 

[Warfish]

45 minutes ago, section314 said:

My guess is not enough work on footwork? If you recall, Saleh said many times this year, especially when White took over, that they were working hard on his footwork to improve the accuracy issues. Thank goodness Saleh finally took a big step in becoming a HC by getting rid of the clown who was in charge of that "minor" task, and totally revamped the offensive staff. Is Zach blameless? Absolutely not. JV kids in HS can do some of that stuff. The bigger picture though is that the Jets put a kindergarten teacher in charge of teaching advanced calculus, which is basically what the jump from college to the NFL is. I'm glad the Jets are finally bringing in competent people to increase the value of a very expensive asset. If it's not happening within two years, I agree, time to sell.

Hackett isn’t terribly competent but ok. 

At least we know the narrative on the pro-Zach side now.

[Warfish]

39 minutes ago, Rangers9 said:

I watched the games and don’t think about him the same way you do. He had ok games too and at times ran the offense and won games. And Ws no matter how flawed are what it’s all about. A number of Brady’s Ws were marginal wins and he didn’t have good stats or play well but he’ll take the W. If you’re saying Zach’s irredeemable and finished disagree. There’s still a high talent level. Are his mistakes fixable we’ll see I think he has an NFL career and probably as a starter. Can he be a franchise QB. He has the talent big arm mobility better than most NFL QBs but can he do it consistently?

/shrug, if you say so. What else can I say, we clearly see QB’s VERY differently and have very different outlooks on pragmatism.

[Rangers9]

34 minutes ago, section314 said:

Great points and can't argue with any of them. The bolded is what scares me. Lynch and Shanahan get him for maybe a 3-4, instead of the haul they offered two years ago. You and I both know how that will probably turn out.

Just a few more points. The Jets didn’t just bench Zach they deactivated him. I thought that was overkill and demeaning to a player who had recently been their starter. Maybe more to that then we know about but a strong action against a player. Of course they did the same to two wide receivers who had popped off. I don’t recall Zach at least publicly saying anything critical about anything. Btw the Raiders also deactivated Carr who later asked to step away from the team not practice or travel with them. Zach did practice and travel with the team I saw at least one video of a practice with him joking around with Saleh. 

[bitonti]

6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Hackett isn’t terribly competent but ok. 

it's ridiculous that it's 2023 and the Jets OC is a dude named Hackett

again

[peekskill68]

25 minutes ago, Bugg said:

Amusing that under Johnson(spare cutting edge offense Gase, another disaster, another story, technically hired by his brother, Chris, and Mangini, different thing altogether). gone through this cycle of hiring a defensive coordinator as their head coach. Invariably former DC entrusts the offense to somebody else as the offensive coordinator. The Jets head coach by design has almost nothing to do with the offense, other than complaining about it. Would note some very good coaches who were defensive coaches (Parcells, Bellichick, Tom Laundry) understood how offenses worked having spent their careers defensing them . Those guys ran good offense and were involved.

Never the case here.

But with the Jets-Edwards, Ryan,Bowles and  now Saleh-such coaches totally farmed out the offense, have no clue nor involvement in it. So when it sputters, throw the OC into the volcano and get a new one, all over again. Heck, Hackett's own dad was flung into the volcano for Mike Heimerdinger by Herman Edwards. it'd goddamn intergenerational dysfunction. How does this imbecile Robert Wood Johnson the IV continually hire the same kinds of people who make the same huge mistake over and over? They've learned nothing and forgotten everything.

"Coach, enough about "toughness" .  If you get this job, can you assure me we'll have an offense that passes effectively and  scores points?"

I mostly agree but see a few things differently.  I don't think Saleh's involvement/understanding of the offense is hugely different than Andy Reid's involvement/understanding of the defense.  He has an experienced guy (Spagnuolo) that's been around forever who he trusts to fit the defensive scheme to whatever Reid is looking for.  Where I do agree is the days of the defensive minded coach in the current NFL seem to be in the past.  From the rule changes to the biased officiating, everything right now favors coaches who are offensive innovators.  Successful defensive guys from the past like Parcells, Shula and Landry would have a very hard time succeeding in today's NFL because the league does not want teams to win by playing shutdown defense.  They want teams to win by outscoring their opponent.  IMO successful defensive guys like Belichick, Carroll, Tomlin, etc. have hit the wall with today's NFL while guys like Pederson, Daboll, Shanahan, etc. are the new leaders.

[56mehl56]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

How do coaches make a guy worse in something as direct as screen-pass accuracy?

By messing up his confidence. You ever play a game like golf where once you start questioning what you are doing your game falls apart. Sure Zach is the one on the field with the ball but the CS helped mess his head up so much that he was indecisive about every throw, which was something he didn't do at BYU. 

[Jetsfan80]

6 hours ago, The Crusher said:

It was dumber to play  him right away,

True.  But if you draft a QB # 2 overall you generally expect to draft one who CAN play right away.

Folks like @Dunnie act like Wilson walked into Auschwitz and meanwhile Trevor Lawrence arrived to a team with no offense and a HC who kicked his own players.  

[Bugg]

32 minutes ago, peekskill68 said:

I mostly agree but see a few things differently.  I don't think Saleh's involvement/understanding of the offense is hugely different than Andy Reid's involvement/understanding of the defense.  He has an experienced guy (Spagnuolo) that's been around forever who he trusts to fit the defensive scheme to whatever Reid is looking for.  Where I do agree is the days of the defensive minded coach in the current NFL seem to be in the past.  From the rule changes to the biased officiating, everything right now favors coaches who are offensive innovators.  because the league does not want teams to win by playing shutdown defense.  TheyIMO successful defensive guys like Belichick, Carroll, Tomlin, etc. have hit the wall with today's NFL while guys like Pederson, Daboll, Shanahan, etc. are the new leaders.

Successful defensive guys from the past like Parcells, Shula and Landry would have a very hard time succeeding in today's NFL want teams to win by outscoring their opponent.  Ergo, the folly of hiring a defensive coach, yet again, in 2023. 

[The Crusher]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

True.  But if you draft a QB # 2 overall you generally expect to draft one who CAN play right away.

Folks like @Dunnie act like Wilson walked into Auschwitz and meanwhile Trevor Lawrence arrived to a team with no offense and a HC who kicked his own players.  

I agree with that but when you take in account it was first time everything the biggest dumbest thing was not entertaining a plan reasonable plan B, in case it didn’t work, they pushed all in with brand new everything and never even thought about it not working out. That’s just nuts. 

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, section314 said:

I went back time and time again and watched his college tape and none of these things, especially accuracy, were a problem. I would strongly argue that the two bit coaches that Saleh hired to supposedly develop Zach made him worse than the day he was drafted, and it's not even close. 

Pretty easy to be accurate when you’re never touched.

Dude was scared of pressure.  In the few games in college he DID get pressured, that showed up on tape. 

[Green Ghost]

1 hour ago, section314 said:

Great points and can't argue with any of them. The bolded is what scares me. Lynch and Shanahan get him for maybe a 3-4, instead of the haul they offered two years ago. You and I both know how that will probably turn out.

OMG you’re worried the 49ers are going to want him and turn him into a star?

 

[section314]

17 minutes ago, Green Ghost said:

OMG you’re worried the 49ers are going to want him and turn him into a star?

 

Was responding to a post saying that there probably would be a market for Zach if they decided to trade him and that would give me pause . It always makes you think twice if really smart people are more than willing to take the other side of a trade.. At least it does me.

[Green Ghost]

20 minutes ago, section314 said:

Was responding to a post saying that there probably would be a market for Zach if they decided to trade him and that would give me pause . It always makes you think twice if really smart people are more than willing to take the other side of a trade.. At least it does me.

But are they though? I haven’t read a thing about anyone being interested in him.

[Dunnie]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

True.  But if you draft a QB # 2 overall you generally expect to draft one who CAN play right away.

Folks like @Dunnie act like Wilson walked into Auschwitz and meanwhile Trevor Lawrence arrived to a team with no offense and a HC who kicked his own players.  

A bit strong there bro ... But point taken .. Zach just walked into a situation of a first time head coach, first time DC a first time OC and no help.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Dunnie

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, Dunnie said:

A bit strong there bro ... But point taken .. Zach just walked into a situation of a first time head coach, first time DC a first time OC and no help.

Yet in year 2 with much improved circumstances for each, Lawrence thrived while Wilson played himself into healthy scratches.  

Good QBs rise and make their whole team better.  Wilson needed perfect circumstances and even when he had them (healthy Breece and AVT, Garrett Wilson, elite D) he still sucked and got carried to wins.  

[Hal N of Provo]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yet in year 2 with much improved circumstances for each, Lawrence thrived while Wilson played himself into healthy scratches.  

Good QBs rise and make their whole team better.  Wilson needed perfect circumstances and even then sucked.  

Let me guess.  It’s random the Jets keep drafting poorly and guys like Andy Reid always have good QBs.  

[Dunnie]

Yet in year 2 with much improved circumstances for each, Lawrence thrived while Wilson played himself into healthy scratches.  
Good QBs rise and make their whole team better.  Wilson needed perfect circumstances and even when he had them (healthy Breece and AVT, Garrett Wilson, elite D) he still sucked and got carried to wins.  

Wilson was the best QB on the team .. what does that tell you ?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[Jetsfan80]

Just now, Dunnie said:

Wilson was the best QB on the team .. what does that tell you ?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

No he wasn’t.  And even if that were true the Jets purposely surrounded Wilson with sh*tty alternatives at QB.  You’re making no good points here.  

[Jetsfan80]

2 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Let me guess.  It’s random the Jets keep drafting poorly and guys like Andy Reid always have good QBs.  

Oh I forgot Andy Reid and a tremendous org drafted Trevor Lawrence.  

[Hal N of Provo]

Just now, Jetsfan80 said:

Oh I forgot Andy Reid drafted Trevor Lawrence.  

Lawrence sucked Year 1 too.  With bad coaching.  MiLF was a very bad OC…

1st ballot HoF baby!! 

[Dunnie]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No he wasn’t.  And even if that were true the Jets purposely surrounded Wilson with sh*tty alternatives at QB.  You’re making no good points here.  

Don't get me wrong .. Wilson sucked.... But the team won more when he played.

[Jetsfan80]

10 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

Lawrence sucked Year 1 too.  With bad coaching.  MiLF was a very bad OC…

1st ballot HoF baby!! 

Trevor Lawrence with much improved circumstances:  Pro Bowl, playoffs

Wilson with much improved circumstances:  Healthy Scratch.  
 

But sure blame LaFleur for all his problems.  A Jets fan tradition with OCs for over 20 years. 
 

And nice pivot from the “only good orgs get good QBs!” take.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 minute ago, Dunnie said:

Don't get me wrong .. Wilson sucked.... But the team won more when he played.

He still sucked when he played.  The rest of the team did great!

[Smashmouth]

2 hours ago, Warfish said:

Hackett isn’t terribly competent but ok. 

At least we know the narrative on the pro-Zach side now.

Hackett is competent in one way, Aaron Rodgers likes him as a coach ...Why ? Because Hackett probably let Rodgers do a lot of what Rodgers wanted to do hence why Rodgers actually liked him. That's a winning formula that you can probably only achieve with 2 -3 QB's in the NFL Rodgers, Brady and Mahome's . What Hackett will do with a guy like Carr or a Mike White will be more on him to design and build offenses week to week to deal with the various defenses he will be going up against. We will know what we have with Hackett if Carr is the QB probably by Mid season while the team adapts to his philosophy which is not too far off from what we were doing with LaFleur. If Rodgers is the QB this team should be off and running by week 3

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, section314 said:

My guess is not enough work on footwork? If you recall, Saleh said many times this year, especially when White took over, that they were working hard on his footwork to improve the accuracy issues. Thank goodness Saleh finally took a big step in becoming a HC by getting rid of the clown who was in charge of that "minor" task, and totally revamped the offensive staff. Is Zach blameless? Absolutely not. JV kids in HS can do some of that stuff. The bigger picture though is that the Jets put a kindergarten teacher in charge of teaching advanced calculus, which is basically what the jump from college to the NFL is. I'm glad the Jets are finally bringing in competent people to increase the value of a very expensive asset. If it's not happening within two years, I agree, time to sell.

Pro coaches shouldn’t have to fix JV-level miscues by a supposed pro QB.  those shouldn’t be issues a QB is dealing with by the point when he’s entered the league.  

You certainly don’t draft a kid at # 2 who needs babysitters.  

[Smashmouth]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

No he wasn’t.  And even if that were true the Jets purposely surrounded Wilson with sh*tty alternatives at QB.  You’re making no good points here.  

The worst move the Jets made all year was not starting the season with Mike White at QB . They did not play White because if he did well, which he probably would have, the fans would have been relentless booing Zach when he came back . They figured they could win with Flacco and not dig too deep a hole and avoid any controversy and for the most part they were right until the horrible play by Zach in the Patriots games which cost us a playoff berth. When Zach came back he had guys like Breece Hall and Garrett Wilson and AVT playing out of their minds once they were gone Wilson was exposed in a big way then the Jets made the next mistake in sticking with him too long.

[Dunnie]

5 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

The worst move the Jets made all year was not starting the season with Mike White at QB . They did not play White because if he did well, which he probably would have, the fans would have been relentless booing Zach when he came back . They figured they could win with Flacco and not dig too deep a hole and avoid any controversy and for the most part they were right until the horrible play by Zach in the Patriots games which cost us a playoff berth. When Zach came back he had guys like Breece Hall and Garrett Wilson and AVT playing out of their minds once they were gone Wilson was exposed in a big way then the Jets made the next mistake in sticking with him too long.

Mike White is made of glass .. had he started the season he would have been out by week 5.

Edited February 19, 2023 by Dunnie

[56mehl56]

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Trevor Lawrence with much improved circumstances:  Pro Bowl, playoffs

Wilson with much improved circumstances:  Healthy Scratch.  
 

But sure blame LaFleur for all his problems.  A Jets fan tradition with OCs for over 20 years. 
 

And nice pivot from the “only good orgs get good QBs!” take.  

How did the Jets offensive staff improve last year. Jax brought in Doug Petersen and Press Taylor . But I guess they rode the coat tails of the great Trevor Lawrence.  

[Charlie Brown]

8 hours ago, The Crusher said:

It was dumber to play  him right away,

Thank you Captain .... W

Will someone in the Jets hierarchy admit this as well other than the fired Mike LeFleur!!