Pats and Belichick parting ways?

[jetsfan56]

Taught us the meaning of "you ain't trying unless your cheating" 

Wife has called him Bellicheat for years


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Kleckineau]

2 hours ago, Randy Rasmussen said:

 

Maybe the Tuna wasn’t that great


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

Joe Gibbs?

[jmat321]

I would think he takes the year off, no?  

[Falco21]

21 hours ago, kmnj said:

who drafted Tom Brady and who gave Tom Brady his opportunity why that would be Bill .... if he did nothing else in any of his drafts he drafted the best QB ever that led to actual championships... 

he won multiple rings as a DC and head coach.

I understand not liking him but your post is simply insane or just blinded by hate

Sadly father time is undefeated and Bill is a victim of that just like everybody else  is

 

 

 

 

So you're not attributing the Brady pick to luck, but rather that he was a genius and knew what Brady was going to be in this league?

 

Is that why he was selected in the last round of the draft? Sounds to me like a coach that took a flyer on a QB that turned out to be a winning lotto ticket, not an actual strategy. You can simply look at his draft results, year over year, and quickly realize that he has, in large part, been very bad at drafting NFL talent.

 

My post is not insane and is not blinded by hate. He is 249 and 75 with Brady. He is now 82 and 98 without him. This belief that he is a "genius" head coach is mind numbing. A true great head coach does not solely rely on his QB to win games. A perfect example of that is Andy Reid. With Donovan McNabb, Reid was 92-49-1. With Alex Smith under center in Kansas City, Reid was 50-26. With Mahomes under center, Reid is 52-14. Thats a winning percent of 65%, 66%, and 79%, respectfully. 

 

On the contrary, Belichick's winning percent went from 77% to 45% when Brady left.

 

 

[PFSIKH]

23 minutes ago, Falco21 said:

So you're not attributing the Brady pick to luck, but rather that he was a genius and knew what Brady was going to be in this league?

Is that why he was selected in the last round of the draft? Sounds to me like a coach that took a flyer on a QB that turned out to be a winning lotto ticket, not an actual strategy. You can simply look at his draft results, year over year, and quickly realize that he has, in large part, been very bad at drafting NFL talent.

My post is not insane and is not blinded by hate. He is 249 and 75 with Brady. He is now 82 and 98 without him. This belief that he is a "genius" head coach is mind numbing. A true great head coach does not solely rely on his QB to win games. A perfect example of that is Andy Reid. With Donovan McNabb, Reid was 92-49-1. With Alex Smith under center in Kansas City, Reid was 50-26. With Mahomes under center, Reid is 52-14. Thats a winning percent of 65%, 66%, and 79%, respectfully. 

On the contrary, Belichick's winning percent went from 77% to 45% when Brady left.

Drafting Brady was lucky.  It was a scout that campaigned for Brady.  Belichick deserves credit for following his recommendation and then keeping him as QB4 his rookie year, but I digress.

Belichick's 82-98 is not because he never knew how to coach.  That is a dumb statement.  His time and Cleveland and his non-Brady time in New England is defined as this.  A defense that is good.  An offense that for the most part cannot get things right.  

This is not a knock-on Reid.  I do not think it is an embellishment to say he is to offensive football as Bill is to the defensive side.  With that said, he won with McNabb (1st round draft pick), Smith (1st round draft pick) and Mahomes (1st round draft pick).  Players that have talent.  He was able to squeeze every last drop out of it. 

It is not like he is running out Bailey Zappe.  None of the QBs Bill has trotted out before or after Brady are better than the worst of the three Alex Smith.  I would probably open the debate on whether post-prison Mike Vick and washed up Cam to being the #4

Bill knows how to coach.  Bill's talent acquisition on the offense is not as good as Reid's.

[greenwichjetfan]

6 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Drafting Brady was lucky.  It was a scout that campaigned for Brady.  Belichick deserves credit for following his recommendation and then keeping him as QB4 his rookie year, but I digress.

Belichick's 82-98 is not because he never knew how to coach.  That is a dumb statement.  His time and Cleveland and his non-Brady time in New England is defined as this.  A defense that is good.  An offense that for the most part cannot get things right.  

This is not a knock-on Reid.  I do not think it is an embellishment to say he is to offensive football as Bill is to the defensive side.  With that said, he won with McNabb (1st round draft pick), Smith (1st round draft pick) and Mahomes (1st round draft pick).  Players that have talent.  He was able to squeeze every last drop out of it. 

It is not like he is running out Bailey Zappe.  None of the QBs Bill has trotted out before or after Brady are better than the worst of the three Alex Smith.  I would probably open the debate on whether post-prison Mike Vick and washed up Cam to being the #4

Bill knows how to coach.  Bill's talent acquisition on the offense is not as good as Reid's.

Consider this: Bill Parcells doesn't have a single playoff win on his resume where Belichick wasn't his DC. I don't even think any of his teams made the playoffs when Belichick wasn't his DC.

The problem in NE was that they gave Belichick sole responsibility for player personnel. If they brought back Caserio last year like they wanted and allowed Belichick to simply coach, the pats would still be a perennial playoff team. Unfortunately now Caserio is making a name for himself and Houston won't be letting him go anytime soon.  

[#27TheDominator]

31 minutes ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Consider this: Bill Parcells doesn't have a single playoff win on his resume where Belichick wasn't his DC. I don't even think any of his teams made the playoffs when Belichick wasn't his DC.

The problem in NE was that they gave Belichick sole responsibility for player personnel. If they brought back Caserio last year like they wanted and allowed Belichick to simply coach, the pats would still be a perennial playoff team. Unfortunately now Caserio is making a name for himself and Houston won't be letting him go anytime soon.  

I don't think that he has a playoff win without Belichick on his staff, but technically a couple of times without BB as DC.  In 1984  I think Lil' Bill was technically still just special team and LB coach, but he was DC by the following year and I think the '84 Giants used Parcells as de facto DC.   When the Pats made the super bowl Groh was DC, but Belichick had been added to the staff and was Assistant HC.  Parcells made the playoffs and one and done with the Pats in '94, losing to the Browns coached by Belichick in the wild card round.  Cleveland lost to the Steelers who lost to the Stan Humphries Chargers.  Parcells was also one and done in Dallas in 2003 and 2006 while Belichick was winning the super bowl in NE. 

[UntouchableCrew]

3 hours ago, PFSIKH said:

 

It is not like he is running out Bailey Zappe.  None of the QBs Bill has trotted out before or after Brady are better than the worst of the three Alex Smith.  I would probably open the debate on whether post-prison Mike Vick and washed up Cam to being the #4

I dunno. He got Kevin Kolb a $49 million dollar payday.

[UntouchableCrew]

With Tom Brady as his starting QB Bill Belichick is

• 219-64 as a coach.
• He has 17 playoff appearances in 18 years with Brady starting the majority of the games.
• He's 30-11 in the playoffs 
• 17 Division Titles
• 9 AFC Championships
• 6 Super Bowl Titles

With anyone other than Tom Brady as his starting QB Bill Belichick is

• 82-98 as a coach.
• He has 2 playoff appearances in 10 seasons.
• 1-2 in the playoffs
• 0 Division Titles
• 0 AFC Championships
• 0 Super Bowl Titles

[UntouchableCrew]

With Patrick Mahomes as his starting QB Andy Reid is

• 72-21 as a coach.
• He has 5 playoff appearances in 5 years with Mahomes starting the majority of the games.
• He's 11-3 in the playoffs 
• 5 (likely going to be 6) Division Titles
• 3 AFC Championships (in 5 years)
• 2 Super Bowl Titles (in 5 years)

With anyone other than Patrick Mahomes as his starting QB Andy Reid is

• 183-122-1 as a coach.
• He has 13 playoff appearances in 19 seasons.
• 11-13 in the playoffs
• 8 Division Titles
• 1 Conference Championship
• 0 Super Bowl Titles

[Warfish]

4 hours ago, Falco21 said:

He is 249 and 75 with Brady. He is now 82 and 98 without him.

A true great head coach does not solely rely on his QB to win games.

Aren't most Head Coaches getter at winning with a HOF QB than when they don't have a HOF QB?

What was Bill Walsh's coaching record without Joe Montana?

What was Don Shula's coaching record without Johnny Unites, Bob Griese or Dan Marino?

I'm willing to guess many of the top winning Head Coaches have a severe dropoff in winning % without their top/HOF QB's.

With exceptions, Parcells never had a real HOF QB did he?  Same for Joe Gibbs.

One difference is many of the all-time great Coaches didn't also act as GM, were handed the great QB's they benefitted from, and many of them had long careers with multiple great QB's given to them to work with, while Brady and Scumbag had almost all of that time long, long together.

 

[PFSIKH]

57 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

With Patrick Mahomes as his starting QB Andy Reid is

• 72-21 as a coach.
• He has 5 playoff appearances in 5 years with Mahomes starting the majority of the games.
• He's 11-3 in the playoffs 
• 5 (likely going to be 6) Division Titles
• 3 AFC Championships (in 5 years)
• 2 Super Bowl Titles (in 5 years)

With anyone other than Patrick Mahomes as his starting QB Andy Reid is

• 183-122-1 as a coach.
• He has 13 playoff appearances in 19 seasons.
• 11-13 in the playoffs
• 8 Division Titles
• 1 Conference Championship
• 0 Super Bowl Titles

Someone pointed that out in another thread.  Who were his QBs?

Alex Smith and Donovan McNabb.  Not exactly hot garbage.

Do you want to say one of the best offensive minds of this generation has a better eye for QB talent than Bill?  Totally agree.

You act like Andy one 183 games with Mac Jones.

 

1 hour ago, greenwichjetfan said:

Consider this: Bill Parcells doesn't have a single playoff win on his resume where Belichick wasn't his DC. I don't even think any of his teams made the playoffs when Belichick wasn't his DC.

The problem in NE was that they gave Belichick sole responsibility for player personnel. If they brought back Caserio last year like they wanted and allowed Belichick to simply coach, the pats would still be a perennial playoff team. Unfortunately now Caserio is making a name for himself and Houston won't be letting him go anytime soon.  

I do not disagree with this.

The Patriots biggest problem is talent.  That goes without saying.  The issue of the past decade that is exposed more without Brady is the lack of roster building.  Bill's draft have always had hits and misses.  The Patriots always seemed to have a guy in the system ready to take over. 

Troy Brown became Deion Branch who became Wes Welker who became Julian Edelman.   Jacobi Meyers is not a slot guy, something the offense was based around for 20 years, but he developed a repour with Mac.  The let him walk and bring in Juju for the same money.  The Patriots had a steady stream of productive TEs throughout Bill's tenure.  Even with Gronk taking a beating, they never looked to develop a guy behind him.  They had to throw money at two to solve that issue.    It is the same with tackle or third down back.  I should be thankful they took a flyer on Zeke.  Otherwise, the run game and third down back would be in worse trouble.  

Bill is hiw own worse enemy.

[UntouchableCrew]

1 hour ago, PFSIKH said:

Someone pointed that out in another thread.  Who were his QBs?

Alex Smith and Donovan McNabb.  Not exactly hot garbage.

Do you want to say one of the best offensive minds of this generation has a better eye for QB talent than Bill?  Totally agree.

You act like Andy one 183 games with Mac Jones.

Look at what those guys did with and without Reid. Every QB who has played under Reid has had their best seasons under him -- and it wasn't just Alex Smith, Donovan McNabb -- it was Michael Vick, Jeff Garcia, Kevin Kolb, AJ Feeley, Koy Detmer, Nick Foles, Vince Young, Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Chase Daniel.

Reid has often gotten good play from bad QBs. Mac Jones is probably better than half the guys on that list -- New England is part of why he sucks they have bad offensive coaches and no weapons.

The Belichick list also includes Drew Bledsoe, Bernie Kosar, Cam Newton, Jimmy Garappolo, Matt Cassel and several other respectable names.

It's pretty simple, Reid has won with a wide variety of QBs and has dominated with Patrick Mahomes. Belichick dominated with Tom Brady and has been pretty much totally unsuccessful without the greatest QB ever to play.

[southparkcpa]

[CanadaSteve]

On 12/12/2023 at 8:09 PM, sourceworx said:

Great defensive coordinator, vastly overrated head coach. 

He has all the qualifications to become the next NY Jet head coach.

[CanadaSteve]

16 hours ago, PFSIKH said:

 Troy Brown became Deion Branch who became Wes Welker who became Julian Edelman.   

Troy Brown also became Darrelle Revis.

[PFSIKH]

16 hours ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Look at what those guys did with and without Reid. Every QB who has played under Reid has had their best seasons under him -- and it wasn't just Alex Smith, Donovan McNabb -- it was Michael Vick, Jeff Garcia, Kevin Kolb, AJ Feeley, Koy Detmer, Nick Foles, Vince Young, Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Chase Daniel.

Reid has often gotten good play from bad QBs. Mac Jones is probably better than half the guys on that list -- New England is part of why he sucks they have bad offensive coaches and no weapons.

The Belichick list also includes Drew Bledsoe, Bernie Kosar, Cam Newton, Jimmy Garappolo, Matt Cassel and several other respectable names.

It's pretty simple, Reid has won with a wide variety of QBs and has dominated with Patrick Mahomes. Belichick dominated with Tom Brady and has been pretty much totally unsuccessful without the greatest QB ever to play.

Jeff Garcia was pretty good before he went to Andy.  

It is pretty simple.  Reid won 232 of his 255 career wins with Mahomes, McNabb, Vick and Smith.  He is 23-31 with everyone else.

It is not like he went 32-16 with AJ Feeley making three consecutive NFC Conference Championship games.

My only point with Belichick is this.  Everyone wants to say he sucks.  Ok.  Which head coach won consistently with average to below average QBs?  Donn Shula won alot of games.  It was not like he won 95% of them with a club footed QB.  He had very good QBs.  

[UntouchableCrew]

19 minutes ago, PFSIKH said:

Jeff Garcia was pretty good before he went to Andy.  

It is pretty simple.  Reid won 232 of his 255 career wins with Mahomes, McNabb, Vick and Smith.  He is 23-31 with everyone else.

It is not like he went 32-16 with AJ Feeley making three consecutive NFC Conference Championship games.

My only point with Belichick is this.  Everyone wants to say he sucks.  Ok.  Which head coach won consistently with average to below average QBs?  Donn Shula won alot of games.  It was not like he won 95% of them with a club footed QB.  He had very good QBs.  

This seems kind of silly/cherry picking. Reid was only good because he worked with four good QBs? C'mon.

Like, is Donovan McNabb better than Bernie Kosar or Drew Bledsoe? I don't see it. There's certainly no sample size of McNabb doing anything away from Reid.

Alex Smith was basically a bust -- Harbaugh had him playing okay before he was replaced by Kaepernick but he never sniffed a Pro Bowl until he played for Andy Reid.

Michael Vick was just a running QB before Andy Reid.

And I'm not saying Belichick sucks. He's clearly one of the best defensive coaches ever.

But the entire argument that he's the "greatest head coach of all time" is based on the fact that he lucked into Tom Brady. You need good QB play to win at the highest level (and now that he has Mahomes Reid is starting to stack rings) but Reid has displayed that he's a very good coach winning a lot even without top notch QBs. Belichick simply hasn't, and the sample size isn't that small.

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

On 12/14/2023 at 10:33 AM, UntouchableCrew said:

With anyone other than Patrick Mahomes as his starting QB Andy Reid is

• 183-122-1 as a coach.
• He has 13 playoff appearances in 19 seasons.

LOL

Is there any Jet fan alive that wouldn't sign up for this

[Rich Thornburgh]

On 12/13/2023 at 2:19 AM, GreenFish said:

It all went downhill once Brady left. BB forgot how to coach (except against the Jets) and the winning culture evaporated.

God I miss the endless news reports I had to watch last 22 years about the reason the patriots won was because Belichick made his players do more calisthenics in practice 

[Rich Thornburgh]

20 hours ago, PFSIKH said:

Jeff Garcia was pretty good before he went to Andy.  

It is pretty simple.  Reid won 232 of his 255 career wins with Mahomes, McNabb, Vick and Smith.  He is 23-31 with everyone else.

It is not like he went 32-16 with AJ Feeley making three consecutive NFC Conference Championship games.

My only point with Belichick is this.  Everyone wants to say he sucks.  Ok.  Which head coach won consistently with average to below average QBs?  Donn Shula won alot of games.  It was not like he won 95% of them with a club footed QB.  He had very good QBs.  

Name me a good qb Belichick developed not named Tom Brady

[Rich Thornburgh]

On 12/14/2023 at 11:07 PM, UntouchableCrew said:

Look at what those guys did with and without Reid. Every QB who has played under Reid has had their best seasons under him -- and it wasn't just Alex Smith, Donovan McNabb -- it was Michael Vick, Jeff Garcia, Kevin Kolb, AJ Feeley, Koy Detmer, Nick Foles, Vince Young, Chad Henne, Matt Moore, Chase Daniel.

Reid has often gotten good play from bad QBs. Mac Jones is probably better than half the guys on that list -- New England is part of why he sucks they have bad offensive coaches and no weapons.

The Belichick list also includes Drew Bledsoe, Bernie Kosar, Cam Newton, Jimmy Garappolo, Matt Cassel and several other respectable names.

It's pretty simple, Reid has won with a wide variety of QBs and has dominated with Patrick Mahomes. Belichick dominated with Tom Brady and has been pretty much totally unsuccessful without the greatest QB ever to play.

Pete Carroll - developed Russell Wilson.  Made the playoffs last season with Geno

 

Bill Parcells - won 2x Super Bowls with 2 different QBs.  Went to a third Super Bowl with a third qb

 

 

[GreenFish]

On 12/14/2023 at 9:01 AM, PFSIKH said:

Drafting Brady was lucky.  It was a scout that campaigned for Brady.  Belichick deserves credit for following his recommendation and then keeping him as QB4 his rookie year, but I digress.

Belichick's 82-98 is not because he never knew how to coach.  That is a dumb statement.  His time and Cleveland and his non-Brady time in New England is defined as this.  A defense that is good.  An offense that for the most part cannot get things right.  

This is not a knock-on Reid.  I do not think it is an embellishment to say he is to offensive football as Bill is to the defensive side.  With that said, he won with McNabb (1st round draft pick), Smith (1st round draft pick) and Mahomes (1st round draft pick).  Players that have talent.  He was able to squeeze every last drop out of it. 

It is not like he is running out Bailey Zappe.  None of the QBs Bill has trotted out before or after Brady are better than the worst of the three Alex Smith.  I would probably open the debate on whether post-prison Mike Vick and washed up Cam to being the #4

Bill knows how to coach.  Bill's talent acquisition on the offense is not as good as Reid's.

Mac Jones was a 1st round draft pick.

Alex Smith was a disappointment until he got with Reid. 

[TuscanyTile2]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:02 PM, PFSIKH said:

Someone pointed that out in another thread.  Who were his QBs?

Alex Smith and Donovan McNabb.  Not exactly hot garbage.

Do you want to say one of the best offensive minds of this generation has a better eye for QB talent than Bill?  Totally agree.

You act like Andy one 183 games with Mac Jones.

 

I do not disagree with this.

The Patriots biggest problem is talent.  That goes without saying.  The issue of the past decade that is exposed more without Brady is the lack of roster building.  Bill's draft have always had hits and misses.  The Patriots always seemed to have a guy in the system ready to take over. 

Troy Brown became Deion Branch who became Wes Welker who became Julian Edelman.   Jacobi Meyers is not a slot guy, something the offense was based around for 20 years, but he developed a repour with Mac.  The let him walk and bring in Juju for the same money.  The Patriots had a steady stream of productive TEs throughout Bill's tenure.  Even with Gronk taking a beating, they never looked to develop a guy behind him.  They had to throw money at two to solve that issue.    It is the same with tackle or third down back.  I should be thankful they took a flyer on Zeke.  Otherwise, the run game and third down back would be in worse trouble.  

Bill is hiw own worse enemy.

IIRC, BB won 11 games the year TB12 got injured and was out for the year.  I think there's a lot of revisionist history going on.  People are acting like BB isn't in the GOAT convo because he did most of his winning with TB12.  Meanwhile, Bill Walsh won with Montana and Jerry Rice and nobody seems to mind.

TB12's Super Bowl win with Tampa really changed the narrative.  Deservedly so to some degree but I think it's crazy for people to discredit BB's contribution. 

Even as a Jet fan I respect both of them, albeit begrudgingly.  Thankfully, they both got caught cheating - lol.   

[GreenFish]

On 12/13/2023 at 7:50 AM, Kleckineau said:

Didnt all the "great" coaches have great QBs?

Maybe Parcells didnt.

Yes but others have done relatively well without the great QB. There’s a huge difference with and without Brady.

BB is a great defensive coach who was lucky enough to pair with the best QB of all time. In terms of being the goat HC. I don't think so. I don't even think he’s the best coach of his generation. Top 5 of us his generation though. Somewhere behind Reid, Harbaugh, and Tomlin.

[southparkcpa]

39 minutes ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

God I miss the endless news reports I had to watch last 22 years about the reason the patriots won was because Belichick made his players do more calisthenics in practice 

or that horseshlt phrase "Do Your Job".....   BB is a good coach, simply got over rated with Brady. I think Tomlin is a better coach. He seemed to draft well early in his career at NE with Mayo, Gronk etc... but their drafts have been  NY Jet awful last few years.

[TuscanyTile2]

1 minute ago, southparkcpa said:

or that horseshlt phrase "Do Your Job".....   BB is a good coach, simply got over rated with Brady. I think Tomlin is a better coach. He seemed to draft well early in his career at NE with Mayo, Gronk etc... but their drafts have been  NY Jet awful last few years.

This is what I mean when I say there's revisionist history about BB.  And I'm saying that despite being a big fan of Tomlin.

[xboxjets]

I can't see Bill going out and with rainbows and sunshine. Going to get out the popcorn and enjoy. Hope he wins enough games to screw the patriots. Wish the rumors came out before the trade deadline. Can see him calling up the Jets hey we see you have a great QB room. How about a 1st rounder for Tim Boyle 🤣

[GreenFish]

2 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

This is what I mean when I say there's revisionist history about BB.  And I'm saying that despite being a big fan of Tomlin.

What are people revising? He’s 82-98 without Tom Brady. People are saying he’s a great defensive coach who was overrated as a HC because of Tom Brady. 

[GreenFish]

What’s fascinating is that when Tom Brady left NE, everyone was saying we will find out who was more important to those championships. At the time, it was a theoretical argument. Brady left, won a SB in Tampa, and the Pats trended down. We found out. 

[TuscanyTile2]

35 minutes ago, GreenFish said:

What are people revising? He’s 82-98 without Tom Brady. People are saying he’s a great defensive coach who was overrated as a HC because of Tom Brady. 

Was Bill Walsh a great HC?  

[GreenFish]

13 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Was Bill Walsh a great HC?  

He’s is before my time. What I would say about Walsh is that he revolutionized the offensive side of the ball. So he’s definitely a great offensive coach. More so than any defensive guy I’ve ever seen.

Great HCs I’ve seen are Bill Parcells, Mike Tomlin, John Harbaugh.

BB falls in that next tier to me.

[Rich Thornburgh]

3 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

or that horseshlt phrase "Do Your Job".....   BB is a good coach, simply got over rated with Brady. I think Tomlin is a better coach. He seemed to draft well early in his career at NE with Mayo, Gronk etc... but their drafts have been  NY Jet awful last few years.

Agree.  He’s a great defensive coordinator who had the greatest qb ever fall in his lap.  Yeah his drafts last 6-7 years have been brutal.  As much as I hate the pats I have to give Bob Kraft credit for finally realizing what a fraud this guy is

[Rich Thornburgh]

3 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

This is what I mean when I say there's revisionist history about BB.  And I'm saying that despite being a big fan of Tomlin.

There’s revisionist and then there’s people like me who saw through the media facade for years.  Brady can make any coach look good he won a Super Bowl with empty suit Todd frickin Bowles