Albert Breer: Woody Johnson stepped in on the first round pick (not Zach Wilson)

[maury77]

2 minutes ago, derp said:

I think objectively when you take a step back and look at the entire group Douglas has put together on offense there are serious problems beyond who’s under center.

Honestly, and hopefully they’re healthy after next week so I can start a thread on them because I’m afraid of doing it and at least one of them blowing a knee, Wilson and Hall are probably the two best skill players the Jets have drafted in the last 20 years - and I don’t think it’s close. That they have those two players and the offense is still horrific is indicative of deep systemic issues that go way further than the quarterback. Namely that there’s a well below average offensive line and no secondary pass catcher despite both groups being seriously invested in and turned over multiple times.

I’d also argue that the defense may not be as good as it should be given what’s been invested in it. They’re like 16th in scoring defense this year. The offense doesn’t help but they also don’t give up game flow points with big leads either. I don’t know that they’re elite right now.

I'm going to sound like a Douglas apologist here (and I'm not) but I think the Covid drafts were especially horrendous for him. 2022 was obviously awesome and 2023 was pretty good with Tippman and Mcdonald (who I'm bullish on). 

Douglas seems to have a real blind spot with underestimating his current OL players. How much better are the Jets this year if Fant and Moses are still on the roster?

[Dunnie]

I'm going to sound like a Douglas apologist here (and I'm not) but I think the Covid drafts were especially horrendous for him. 2022 was obviously awesome and 2023 was pretty good with Tippman and Mcdonald (who I'm bullish on). 
Douglas seems to have a real blind spot with underestimating his current OL players. How much better are the Jets this year if Fant and Moses are still on the roster?

Why are you bullish on McD .. what have you seen this year ?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[derp]

31 minutes ago, maury77 said:

I'm going to sound like a Douglas apologist here (and I'm not) but I think the Covid drafts were especially horrendous for him. 2022 was obviously awesome and 2023 was pretty good with Tippman and Mcdonald (who I'm bullish on). 

Douglas seems to have a real blind spot with underestimating his current OL players. How much better are the Jets this year if Fant and Moses are still on the roster?

I do think he got a lot of the process in 2020, and free agency has been bad. But yeah, the 2021 COVID draft was really, really bad.

That said, he decided to be aggressive in a draft where everyone knew they had limited information on prospects. Maybe a high risk high reward proposition, but man that was a great class he completely swung and missed on.

Definitely poor self scouting on the OL.

[SoFlaJets]

9 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I wonder where our intrepid young beat reporters are on this very important story. How is Zach Wilson? Where is Zach Wilson? I mean, three weeks in concussion protocol is pretty alarming! 

That friggin' guy since October I'm wishing' the guy would end up in the tent and everybody called me all types of names because "You NEVER wish for a player to get hurt" I wasn't wishing the guy death or nothing I just wanted him OFF THE FIELD-he finally answers my wish FAKING a concussion AFTER the season's hopes are gone-SELFISH A-hole that he is 

[Dinamite]

14 hours ago, T0mShane said:

I wonder where our intrepid young beat reporters are on this very important story. How is Zach Wilson? Where is Zach Wilson? I mean, three weeks in concussion protocol is pretty alarming! 

Wasn't DJ Reed in the concussion protocol for a month? And CJ Stroud just came back after a 2-3 week absence.

[T0mShane]

11 hours ago, derp said:

I think objectively when you take a step back and look at the entire group Douglas has put together on offense there are serious problems beyond who’s under center.

Honestly, and hopefully they’re healthy after next week so I can start a thread on them because I’m afraid of doing it and at least one of them blowing a knee, Wilson and Hall are probably the two best skill players the Jets have drafted in the last 20 years - and I don’t think it’s close. That they have those two players and the offense is still horrific is indicative of deep systemic issues that go way further than the quarterback. Namely that there’s a well below average offensive line and no secondary pass catcher despite both groups being seriously invested in and turned over multiple times.

I’d also argue that the defense may not be as good as it should be given what’s been invested in it. They’re like 16th in scoring defense this year. The offense doesn’t help but they also don’t give up game flow points with big leads either. I don’t know that they’re elite right now.

Agreed, objectively, that the OL is not good and the receivers beyond Garrett Wilson aren’t awesome, but Zach Wilson exacerbates both issues to the Nth degree. OL is bad, but Wilson holds the ball at one of the highest rates in the sport. Secondary receiving options struggle, but Wilson has one of the lowest accuracy rates in the sport. Similarly with the defense, it lags statistically in some areas, but the Jets offense under Wilson has the lowest success rate at maintaining drives in all of football. Watching every other team this weekend, you see deficiencies on every roster, and it falls on the QB to problem solve. The Jets were getting none of that from Wilson. 

[T0mShane]

5 hours ago, Dinamite said:

Wasn't DJ Reed in the concussion protocol for a month? And CJ Stroud just came back after a 2-3 week absence.

I just find it odd that the previously ubiquitous starting quarterback of the team went out with a concussion under questionable circumstances three weeks ago and has since disappeared

[TuscanyTile2]

12 hours ago, maury77 said:

I'm going to sound like a Douglas apologist here (and I'm not) but I think the Covid drafts were especially horrendous for him. 2022 was obviously awesome and 2023 was pretty good with Tippman and Mcdonald (who I'm bullish on). 

Douglas seems to have a real blind spot with underestimating his current OL players. How much better are the Jets this year if Fant and Moses are still on the roster?

I'm very much on the fence with JD.  And regarding your post, he was at least smart enough to bring in Fant and Moses in the first place.  

[T0mShane]

13 hours ago, Dunnie said:

Why are you bullish on McD .. what have you seen this year ?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
 

His pass rush win rate is up there with elite edge rushers. He needs to add some beef and get more opportunities.

[derp]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Agreed, objectively, that the OL is not good and the receivers beyond Garrett Wilson aren’t awesome, but Zach Wilson exacerbates both issues to the Nth degree. OL is bad, but Wilson holds the ball at one of the highest rates in the sport. Secondary receiving options struggle, but Wilson has one of the lowest accuracy rates in the sport. Similarly with the defense, it lags statistically in some areas, but the Jets offense under Wilson has the lowest success rate at maintaining drives in all of football. Watching every other team this weekend, you see deficiencies on every roster, and it falls on the QB to problem solve. The Jets were getting none of that from Wilson. 

I have never tried to defend Wilson and very much understand that he’s bad and it certainly factors into my perspective on the rest of the roster. That said a rant about him being bad doesn’t really change my perspective on how good a job the GM (who drafted him and has refused to let him go) is doing given that even with multiple tries to fix every part of the offense the long term pieces he’s come away with are one WR and one RB and the short term piece is a tight end.

[Augustiniak]

7 minutes ago, derp said:

I have never tried to defend Wilson and very much understand that he’s bad and it certainly factors into my perspective on the rest of the roster. That said a rant about him being bad doesn’t really change my perspective on how good a job the GM (who drafted him and has refused to let him go) is doing given that even with multiple tries to fix every part of the offense the long term pieces he’s come away with are one WR and one RB and the short term piece is a tight end.

Rodgers was supposed to mask the other issues with the offense.  Good qbs compensate for deficiencies in other areas.  As Shane keeps writing, if your qb gets rid of the ball quicker it makes the OL look better.  There’s often guys who have a step on defenders but if wilson doesn’t see them or throws it inaccurately, we’re more likely to conclude the guy simply wasn’t open when a lot of those times, that’s just the nfl and starting qbs need to put the ball in the right spot.  

[T0mShane]

9 minutes ago, derp said:

I have never tried to defend Wilson and very much understand that he’s bad and it certainly factors into my perspective on the rest of the roster. That said a rant about him being bad doesn’t really change my perspective on how good a job the GM (who drafted him and has refused to let him go) is doing given that even with multiple tries to fix every part of the offense the long term pieces he’s come away with are one WR and one RB and the short term piece is a tight end.

I’m loath to come off as defending Douglas here, but my point is that we just don’t know how good the team is until we see it with a functioning QB. 

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’m loath to come off as defending Douglas here, but my point is that we just don’t know how good the team is until we see it with a functioning QB. 

IMO the problem with the rodgers trade wasn’t the compensation, it was the fallacy that they were truly one player away from competing for the Super Bowl.  The team needed far more talent infusion on offense and in particular the OL wasn’t ready.  Just like when they thought they were a kicker away and drafted nugent

[doitny]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Agreed, objectively, that the OL is not good and the receivers beyond Garrett Wilson aren’t awesome, but Zach Wilson exacerbates both issues to the Nth degree. OL is bad, but Wilson holds the ball at one of the highest rates in the sport. Secondary receiving options struggle, but Wilson has one of the lowest accuracy rates in the sport. Similarly with the defense, it lags statistically in some areas, but the Jets offense under Wilson has the lowest success rate at maintaining drives in all of football. Watching every other team this weekend, you see deficiencies on every roster, and it falls on the QB to problem solve. The Jets were getting none of that from Wilson. 

i was saying this all year. the QB effects everything. i beleive if you had Rodgers, Carr, Minshew, or any number of available QBs they would have played better and got us more wins than Zach.

we have seen for 3 years that Zach needs everybody to play good for him to play good. the OL the WRs, the defense etc... and thats just not realistic in todays NFL. your going to have games where a Garret or a Parsons is in your backfield all day. or a defense who blitzs and takes away your favorite target. 

and is it any coincidence that we have avg 25 pts per game in Siemans 2 starts and in Zachs 12 games 16.3 points. and i didnt even count the Miami game where he got hurt. 

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

IMO the problem with the rodgers trade wasn’t the compensation, it was the fallacy that they were truly one player away from competing for the Super Bowl.  The team needed far more talent infusion on offense and in particular the OL wasn’t ready.  Just like when they thought they were a kicker away and drafted nugent

Agreed. My belief at the time was that they were going to circle back and try to trade for Bakhtiari at some point, but Rodgers goes down and Bakhtiari jumped on IR two weeks later. Was that a good plan? No. But given how passive Douglas was to address OL, and knowing that Rodgers conveniently handed him back $35 mil to play with, it’s as plausible as anything else

[doitny]

13 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

There’s often guys who have a step on defenders but if wilson doesn’t see them or throws it inaccurately, we’re more likely to conclude the guy simply wasn’t open when a lot of those times, that’s just the nfl and starting qbs need to put the ball in the right spot.  

the worst one was at the end of the Giants game when Thibs was 3 yards away from sacking Zach and he had MC2 right in front of his face and wide open. and Zach was looking right at him and didnt throw it and took the sack. 

god knows how many other plays like that happend that we cant see without the "all 22s".

 

[BP]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I just find it odd that the previously ubiquitous starting quarterback of the team went out with a concussion under questionable circumstances three weeks ago and has since disappeared

He’s on a sandy beach reading a book. Coach Saleh really is inspirational 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, T0mShane said:

Agreed. My belief at the time was that they were going to circle back and try to trade for Bakhtiari at some point, but Rodgers goes down and Bakhtiari jumped on IR two weeks later. Was that a good plan? No. But given how passive Douglas was to address OL, and knowing that Rodgers conveniently handed him back $35 mil to play with, it’s as plausible as anything else

They knew they had a good d that didn’t need much more tinkering, and figured the OL wouldn’t have the same injuries as the prior year.  So if you assume avt plays the season and tippman steps in at some point even at guard while mcgovern plays C, the OL functions ok esp. with rodgers there.  I get the plan, not a perfect plan but still the worst part of it was keeping wilson and parading him around as the deferred savior of the team, all the while knowing he sucked and wouldn’t improve. 

Fast forward to 2024, with some new OL infusions and perhaps a flashy wr FA signing, and the same precarious state exists.  Any backup qb they sign won’t get them to the next level and best case with a brissett they’re fighting for a wild card spot.  Unless they get bold and creative in the draft, they’re not bringing in a rookie qb with upside.  The entire team is once again dependent on rodgers staying healthy most of the season and the OL not falling apart, including whichever rookie tackle joins the unit.  

My ideal plan is flipping huff for a day 2 pick and leveraging that plus a 2025 pick to get mccarthy in here and be the backup qb and the guy who starts half the season when rodgers is injured.  That’s how jd saves his job, not by going 9-8 and getting a wild card birth and getting creamed at cincy

[Augustiniak]

1 minute ago, doitny said:

the worst one was at the end of the Giants game when Thibs was 3 yards away from sacking Zach and he had MC2 right in front of his face and wide open. and Zach was looking right at him and didnt throw it and took the sack. 

god knows how many other plays like that happend that we cant see without the "all 22s".

 

Yes i remember that. It’s those seemingly simple plays that frustrate coaches b/c they see how easy it is to just throw it to the guy who is closest to you.  

[T0mShane]

6 minutes ago, doitny said:

i was saying this all year. the QB effects everything. i beleive if you had Rodgers, Carr, Minshew, or any number of available QBs they would have played better and got us more wins than Zach.

we have seen for 3 years that Zach needs everybody to play good for him to play good. the OL the WRs, the defense etc... and thats just not realistic in todays NFL. your going to have games where a Garret or a Parsons is in your backfield all day. or a defense who blitzs and takes away your favorite target. 

and is it any coincidence that we have avg 25 pts per game in Siemans 2 starts and in Zachs 12 games 16.3 points. and i didnt even count the Miami game where he got hurt. 

In the Jets last two games, Trevor Siemian has attempted 94 passes and been sacked two times. 

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

I’m loath to come off as defending Douglas here, but my point is that we just don’t know how good the team is until we see it with a functioning QB. 

When you have a bad offense, the biggest issue is always QB. So having a healthy Rodgers and a better backup next year is a big step forward in theory 

But the problem is that the Browns are proving that you can be more than functional with Joe Flacco and we were 1-4 with him over the last two years here (and that 1 win was a legit miracle), including a loss to Skylar Thompson that let the Dolphins get into the playoffs last year.  
 

We’ll be better with Rodgers, but it’s hard to have any confidence that we’ll be good 

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

In the Jets last two games, Trevor Siemian has attempted 94 passes and been sacked two times. 

Talent aside it’s obvious that someone like simian understands how to play the position while wilson is simply clueless every snap.  

[Matt39]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

I just find it odd that the previously ubiquitous starting quarterback of the team went out with a concussion under questionable circumstances three weeks ago and has since disappeared

Everything about Wilson since he’s been with the Jets has been a bit secretive. 

[Augustiniak]

Just now, slimjasi said:

When you have a bad offense, the biggest issue is always QB. So having a healthy Rodgers and a better backup next year is a big step forward in theory 

But the problem is that the Browns are proving that you can be more than functional with Joe Flacco and we were 1-4 with him over the last two years here (and that 1 win was a legit miracle), including a loss to Skylar Thompson that let the Dolphins get into the playoffs last year.  
 

We’ll be better with Rodgers, but it’s hard to have any confidence that we’ll be good 

That browns OL steamrolled the jets d.  That OL is really helping too

[Augustiniak]

Just now, Matt39 said:

Everything about Wilson since he’s been with the Jets has been a bit secretive. 

As will the trade shipping him out of here

[slimjasi]

3 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

That browns OL steamrolled the jets d.  That OL is really helping too

That Browns OL is missing both starting OTs, and yet, they are functional - and functional enough to steamroll our mostly healthy defense? 

It turns out, coaching is a big deal 

[Augustiniak]

4 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

That Browns OL is missing both starting OTs, and yet, they are functional - and functional enough to steamroll our mostly healthy defense? 

It turns out, coaching is a big deal 

Another flaw with the rodgers trade.  The inmates are running the asylum. They brought in a stiff OC b/c rodgers didn’t need it anyway.  When he’s out you see all the coaching fails from OC to OL.  I actually think it’s not so much the drafting but coaching and also, keeping wilson.  

This regime is on its last leg and really needs to be honest about the coaching on the roster.  Seems like a playoffs or housecleaning season.  Another injury to rodgers may explain why they didn’t make it but at his age, there would be no hope believing he’s staying healthy the following year.  

 

[TuscanyTile2]

28 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

In the Jets last two games, Trevor Siemian has attempted 94 passes and been sacked two times. 

I think they said something like it was taking the Browns under 2 seconds to get to Simian, and he knows he can't run so he just gets rid of the ball as fast as possible.   As a result, he threw all underneath passes.  I remember the announcers were like "I can't remember him throwing the ball downfield except that one time to GW".

I get the idea of saying "well, you play the game the way you have to in order to win".  There's a valid point in there but I still think that's NOT the whole story.  I've made this point before but, just because ZW wouldn't thrive in that situation, I don't think it means he couldn't thrive in any situation. 

ZW has tremendous arm strength (as opposed to Simian, who is far more comparable to Pennington).  You want to put ZW in a situation where he has legit weapinzz to throw to and plays behind a competent OL.  If you put both ZW and Simian in that situation, I think ZW would easily look like the way better QB.  At least, that's my theory (and part of why I think the Jets have completely F'd up the way they've handled him).  

[TuscanyTile2]

21 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

That Browns OL is missing both starting OTs, and yet, they are functional - and functional enough to steamroll our mostly healthy defense? 

It turns out, coaching is a big deal 

Bill Callahan is their OL coach, and he's one of the best in the NFL.  Wish we had him back.

[Augustiniak]

3 minutes ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

I think they said something like it was taking the Browns under 2 seconds to get to Simian, and he knows he can't run so he just gets rid of the ball as fast as possible.   As a result, he threw all underneath passes.  I remember the announcers were like "I can't remember him throwing the ball downfield except that one time to GW".

I get the idea of saying "well, you play the game the way you have to in order to win".  There's a valid point in there but I still think that's NOT the whole story.  I've made this point before but, just because ZW wouldn't thrive in that situation, I don't think it means he couldn't thrive in any situation. 

ZW has tremendous arm strength (as opposed to Simian, who is far more comparable to Pennington).  You want to put ZW in a situation where he has legit weapinzz to throw to and plays behind a competent OL.  If you put both ZW and Simian in that situation, I think ZW would easily look like the way better QB.  At least, that's my theory (and part of why I think the Jets have completely F'd up the way they've handled him).  

Jets were seduced by arm strength but without any intangibles, such as pocket presence, feel for the game, leadership - not to mention, accuracy - and that arm strength is negated.  

[slimjasi]

1 minute ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

Bill Callahan is their OL coach, and he's one of the best in the NFL.  Wish we had him back.

Bingo! 

[derp]

46 minutes ago, Augustiniak said:

Rodgers was supposed to mask the other issues with the offense.  Good qbs compensate for deficiencies in other areas.  As Shane keeps writing, if your qb gets rid of the ball quicker it makes the OL look better.  There’s often guys who have a step on defenders but if wilson doesn’t see them or throws it inaccurately, we’re more likely to conclude the guy simply wasn’t open when a lot of those times, that’s just the nfl and starting qbs need to put the ball in the right spot.  

 

42 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

I’m loath to come off as defending Douglas here, but my point is that we just don’t know how good the team is until we see it with a functioning QB. 

That is fair, we don’t know, but I think we probably do know and some just don’t want to believe it yet for whatever reason.

Not to turn it around too hard, but this to me reads like Zach Wilson apologists after his first couple years saying it was too early to judge him. The evidence is there, and there’s this hope for a one in a million shot that it all turns on a dime.

[derp]

36 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

When you have a bad offense, the biggest issue is always QB. So having a healthy Rodgers and a better backup next year is a big step forward in theory 

But the problem is that the Browns are proving that you can be more than functional with Joe Flacco and we were 1-4 with him over the last two years here (and that 1 win was a legit miracle), including a loss to Skylar Thompson that let the Dolphins get into the playoffs last year.  
 

We’ll be better with Rodgers, but it’s hard to have any confidence that we’ll be good 

A lot of teams have lost quarterbacks this year and more have better offenses than the Jets than do not.

[TuscanyTile2]

1 minute ago, Augustiniak said:

Jets were seduced by arm strength but without any intangibles, such as pocket presence, feel for the game, leadership - not to mention, accuracy - and that arm strength is negated.  

ZW's accuracy has been a lot better this year.  I still want to see what he'd be like with a competent OL and a legit group of WRs.  Trevor Simian pop-gun arm is suited to the conditions we just faced.  Now I do think there's some legit criticism of ZW here because a guy like Tom Brady had a very strong arm but was also extremely accurate (and patient!) with the underneath stuff. 

But I still think if there's a "path to success" for ZW, it's to first play in an offense that's more suited to him to let him see what success looks like.  Once he gets a taste of that, he can refine his game and improve over the years.  There's no guarantee he'd be able to do that, btw, but that's my guess at what he needs.  And based on the improvement in accuracy I saw from him this year, I think there's a case to be made that he could get to where he needs to go.

[T0mShane]

36 minutes ago, derp said:

 

That is fair, we don’t know, but I think we probably do know and some just don’t want to believe it yet for whatever reason.

Not to turn it around too hard, but this to me reads like Zach Wilson apologists after his first couple years saying it was too early to judge him. The evidence is there, and there’s this hope for a one in a million shot that it all turns on a dime.

I think many teams are in the same boat as the Jets talent-wise. The Chiefs are probably a 2 win team without Mahomes, for instance. The Bengals are as talented offensively as you can get and they’re out of the playoffs and will end up with one or two more wins than the Jets, who had one of the hardest schedules in all of football. Again, it’s very likely we’re standing here next season lamenting the lack of talent on the team, but you can’t conclude as much right now.