bitonti Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 from Clark Judge: 40-yard dash times: Talk about exaggerated numbers. I remember when scouts would tell you they had Deion Sanders and Vance Johnson clocked at 4.19, which was astounding. It was also impossible. When Ben Johnson won the 100 meters in the 1988 Olympics -- a race he forfeited when he flunked a drug test -- he finished in 9.79 seconds and scorched the first 50 in 5.56 seconds. Experts who broke down his race into 10-meter increments estimated he went through the 40 at 4.38 seconds. Johnson was a notoriously fast starter. He was in spikes. He was on a fast track. And he had a slight tail wind. Yet NFL scouts would have you believe Deion or The Vance was faster. Hey, at this year's scouting combine they had tight end Vernon Davis clocked at 4.4, with two estimates of 4.38. I know he's fast for his size, but let me ask you: Who wins in a 40 ... Ben Johnson or Vernon Davis? Thank you. http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9482974 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 So bit, how do they do the 40 at combines & pro-day's? Is it just some guy with a stopwatch? It would explain a lot. The thing with 40-times that make them so stupid is that they're not done with full pads on. Dedric Ward was fast but not REALLY fast with the Jets. But this guy was a track star in college. Then there are guys like both Mosses, Deion, a young Tim Dwight, and lots of others who run like the wind WITH pads on. It's how a guy like Terrell Davis with his alleged 4.6 speed can pull away from a pack of defenders & take it to the house while guys who had elite speed at combines get caught from behind. It's the reason we ask guys like you & R44 how fast these players looked in real games instead of looking at their 40-times on a track in Indy with shorts on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 So bit, how do they do the 40 at combines & pro-day's? Is it just some guy with a stopwatch? It would explain a lot.. short answer - pretty much - the combine has an electronic setup but it's not perfect either. I agree if it were up to me i'd have these guy in full pads, full tape (cause alot of em get their ankles taped), and then have em stand in the shower until fully drenched - then run a 40 (on grass) and see how fast you run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajensen088 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 40 times make millions for draft picks. Paul Brown was the first to time prospects in the 40 to find overlooked players who might contribute on special teams on covering punts, the closest any player ever gets to running a straight line 40. Article in Columbus Dispatch does a nice job on the overhyping of times. Bradway was always in love with a players 40 time, which is why he loved players like Bryan Thomas, Jon McGraw, DeWayne Robertson, Justin Miller and others who became big disappointments if not out and out busts. http://www.columbusdispatch.com/sports-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/02/26/20060226-E1-01.html "The innovative Brown is credited with being the first to time players in the 40 when he was OSU coach in the 1940s. He did it to determine who could cover a punt the fastest. He continued testing 40 times as Cleveland Browns coach". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 players like Bryan Thomas, Jon McGraw, DeWayne Robertson, Justin Miller and others who became big disappointments if not out and out busts. I respect and thank you for the rest of the post but seriously how can you make a statement like this? 3 of the 4 players you listed are starters with blue chip upside - 75% success rate is not too shabby when 75% of all the players selected end up being worthless year after year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajensen088 Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 I respect and thank you for the rest of the post but seriously how can you make a statement like this? 3 of the 4 players you listed are starters with blue chip upside - 75% success rate is not too shabby when 75% of all the players selected end up being worthless year after year. They may have blue chip upside, but they have buffalo chip preformance in actual games on the field. How many years are we going to hear about Bryan Thomas's upside? Or why DeWayne Robertson never had a decent year without a healthy Jason Ferguson taking on double teams, or why Justin Miller recieved the ranking of the absolute worst defensive player in the NFL by Two Minute Warning. Hey, Brooks Bollinger was a starter with 'upside' yet you called him a first class bust, and he was only a sixth round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 Hey, Brooks Bollinger was a starter with 'upside' yet you called him a first class bust, and he was only a sixth round pick. Bollinger has upside as a UPS delivery man not as an NFL player. how is justin miller the worst defensive player in the NFL? not to mention the fact that his forty time was OK not amazing, so to even lump him in there with Roberston and Thomas is a misnomer. 4.4 for a CB is ok not great. Also Mcgraw is another one with an OK forty not a great forty. bottom line the jury is not out on any of these players, except for mcGraw (who was injury riddled). We can all say what we want but the fact remains they are all young they are all starting and they all have the chance to get better. That's not a bust and that's not a disspointment - not unless one's expectations are too high. I mean yeah if you expected DRob to have a 20 sack season then he's gonna be a dissapointment to you. Maybe my standaards are too low but a guy like Dorian Boose or Rick Terry these are dissapointments - these are true busts. Or maybe that dipsh-t manuel wright who cried last year during Dolphins minicamp. Or Dimitrious underwood. Or Lawrence Phillips. Or Eugene Chung. or Andy katzenmoyer. - et cetera. I don't think most Jets fans truly understand the concept of being a bust. A guy isn't Lawrence taylor re-incarnate he's a bust. i've heard Jets fans call Santana Moss, Shaun Ellis, Farrior, johnny Abe, Chad, all busts at one time or another. It's like any decent player they ever drafted has been called a bust by the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatsFanTX Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 Or why DeWayne Robertson never had a decent year Don't forget, DFat was DPOTW in one game (out of the 50 he has played) last year. Right bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barton Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 from Clark Judge: http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9482974 That estimate of Johnson 40 is probably wrong then. I mean what is more concrete with more substance and validity, Vernon Davis's 40 time or Ben Johnsons estimated 40 time in a 100 meter run? lol The difference between a 4.38 and a 4.45 is not even a snap of the fingers, so I would be a fool to believe some experts somehow managed to estimate Ben Johnsons 40 time in a 100 meter dash to the exact correct time that he runs in the 40. Thats ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 Don't forget, DFat was DPOTW in one game (out of the 50 he has played) last year. Right bit? dude what you don't know about Jets football could fill the grand canyon. How do you know how a player is doing if you only see him twice a year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehands Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 and then have em stand in the shower until fully drenched Hey Bit, I think that may just be a personal preference. ***Not Bashing*** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 7, 2006 Author Share Posted June 7, 2006 Hey Bit, I think that may just be a personal preference. ***Not Bashing*** lol i know that's how it would be perceived - but seriously football is not played on a sunny day in shorts on a rubber track! The difference between Emmitt Smith and Jerry Rice and the rest of the world is that these player's actual football speed was almost the same as their actual track speed. What good is a 4.3 guy if he runs a 4.8 under game conditions? i'd rather have a 4.6 guy if he runs a 4.6 all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted June 7, 2006 Share Posted June 7, 2006 lol i know that's how it would be perceived - but seriously football is not played on a sunny day in shorts on a rubber track! The difference between Emmitt Smith and Jerry Rice and the rest of the world is that these player's actual football speed was almost the same as their actual track speed. What good is a 4.3 guy if he runs a 4.8 under game conditions? i'd rather have a 4.6 guy if he runs a 4.6 all the time. Amen to that. Ridiculous to see players who were mid-upper first-round LOCKS until the combine. So they were considered the top prospects until running 40 yards on a track that has little to do with actual football play (unless the player's just getting drafted to return kickoffs). Ditto with players who hadn't done much on the field but ran a fast 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJ Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 A 40 is only a frame of reference. It also doesn't account for burst speed or the 1st 5 - 10 yrds of that 40 coming off the ball. Give me the fast guy in that catagory any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 8, 2006 Author Share Posted June 8, 2006 A 40 is only a frame of reference. It also doesn't account for burst speed or the 1st 5 - 10 yrds of that 40 coming off the ball. Give me the fast guy in that catagory any day. interestingly enough Bryan thomas' 10 yard time was so good that year he was faster than half of the cornerbacks at Indy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJ Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 interestingly enough Bryan thomas' 10 yard time was so good that year he was faster than half of the cornerbacks at Indy. I was thinking more of runners and catchers Bit - but thats damn interesting about BT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonehands Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 interestingly enough Bryan thomas' 10 yard time was so good that year he was faster than half of the cornerbacks at Indy. BT is the quickest guy to the gatorade bucket on the sidelines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nails Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 During the 2004 season I broke down three complete games looking for how many times the Jet's defensive lineman were double teamed. The result was Dewayne Robertson was double teamed more often than any other defensive lineman. More than Ellis, Ferguson, and even Abraham. And it wasn't even close. For what it's worth. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warfish Posted June 8, 2006 Share Posted June 8, 2006 Lol, I once ran a 4.6 40 when I weighted 290. Maybe I should have been in the NFL, eh? But on the subject, the answer is an easy one given today's technology. Lasers baby! That's right, lasers. First, player A gets geared up, full gameday Pads supplied by the NFL, not by the player. Second, the player starts 2 feet behind the first laser beam, in full game stance (whichever stance is appropriate for the position the players is declared to be). Third, player A starts running. When he breaks the first beam, the computer connected to that beam (and the second one) starts it's clock. Player runs exactly 40 yards and through the second beam. Like the first, when it is broken, the computer senses it, and stops the clock. Easy, simple, not even that expensive....and absolutely 100% accurate as hell. Buy and set up the equipment once, and it's your forever. And one other thing. For O-linemen, I would have a "Lineman's Dash" test, rather than a strait sprint of 40 (since when the hell do linemen sprint 40 yards starint with no contact anyway). In this case, for O-linemen, I would have them lineup, with the first beam NEXT To them (right or left, they should one both ways honestly). When the are ready, the start to pull/sprint to which ever side the beam is on, and sprint the distance (marked by cones, flexable walling, whatever) that would be an appropriate path for a decent NFL pull. The second beam would be located at the end of the pull, 40 yards away. THAT would give you an accurate view of lineman-based running speed that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 9, 2006 Author Share Posted June 9, 2006 Lol, I once ran a 4.6 40 when I weighted 290. Maybe I should have been in the NFL, eh? seriously that's very impressive. The fastest guy in my high school was a wide receiver and ran the 100 yard dash for the track team, never broke 4.7 - the fact that you were almost 300 pounds at 4.6 is an extremely NFL worthy size/speed ratio. That's Mario Williams type of size/speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Vader Posted June 9, 2006 Share Posted June 9, 2006 warfish thats seriously impressive. I ran a 4.6 40 when a sophmore in highschool -- but I was only 150 pounds. You coulda been swimming in greenbacks making the league minimum by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Warfish... How much did you pay your best friend for doing the stopwatch? 4.6? Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green DNA Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 Lol, I once ran a 4.6 40 when I weighted 290. Were the cops chasing you or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I respect and thank you for the rest of the post but seriously how can you make a statement like this? 3 of the 4 players you listed are starters with blue chip upside - 75% success rate is not too shabby when 75% of all the players selected end up being worthless year after year. Exactly how does Bryan Thomas have "blue chip upside", and why exactly would that matter anyways? HE DOES NOT PRODUCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 Exactly how does Bryan Thomas have "blue chip upside", and why exactly would that matter anyways? HE DOES NOT PRODUCE. I disagree - He does produce - what he's never had is a starting role. We are talking about a player who was until this season stuck firmly behind 2 all pros at DE. He has blue chip upside due to his measurables and what he's shown thus far. He has blue chip upside due to the fact that OAK approached the Jets for this player in 2003, they don't do that for crap players. He's not a blue chip player right now - but he could be - what he does this year (i believe it's his contract year) will determine whether he is a blue chip player or not. Either way he is not without value. He's not a shabby player - the guy is a good player who stops the run and plays hard - not only does he run a 4.5 40 but puts up 225 33 times at 6'4"- very rare size/speed/strength ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raffyD Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 I disagree - He does produce - what he's never had is a starting role. We are talking about a player who was until this season stuck firmly behind 2 all pros at DE. He has blue chip upside due to his measurables and what he's shown thus far. He has blue chip upside due to the fact that OAK approached the Jets for this player in 2003, they don't do that for crap players. He's not a blue chip player right now - but he could be - what he does this year (i believe it's his contract year) will determine whether he is a blue chip player or not. Either way he is not without value. He's not a shabby player - the guy is a good player who stops the run and plays hard - not only does he run a 4.5 40 but puts up 225 33 times at 6'4"- very rare size/speed/strength ratio. Knowing what you know Bit, can BT play olb? I'd hate to force into a position where he can't excel only to find out 2 years from now that he should have stayed at the de position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted June 14, 2006 Author Share Posted June 14, 2006 Knowing what you know Bit, can BT play olb? I'd hate to force into a position where he can't excel only to find out 2 years from now that he should have stayed at the de position. yes. In fact 3-4 rush backer probably the optimal position for his body type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cant Hackett Posted June 14, 2006 Share Posted June 14, 2006 yes. In fact 3-4 rush backer probably the optimal position for his body type. Bryan Thomas is going to have a good year. He played better than Abraham anyway. By the end of the season, it will be John who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted June 15, 2006 Share Posted June 15, 2006 Bryan Thomas is going to have a good year. He played better than Abraham anyway. By the end of the season, it will be John who? That is a pretty big statement. I hope it comes true though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cant Hackett Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 I disagree - He does produce - what he's never had is a starting role. We are talking about a player who was until this season stuck firmly behind 2 all pros at DE. He has blue chip upside due to his measurables and what he's shown thus far. He has blue chip upside due to the fact that OAK approached the Jets for this player in 2003, they don't do that for crap players. He's not a blue chip player right now - but he could be - what he does this year (i believe it's his contract year) will determine whether he is a blue chip player or not. Either way he is not without value. He's not a shabby player - the guy is a good player who stops the run and plays hard - not only does he run a 4.5 40 but puts up 225 33 times at 6'4"- very rare size/speed/strength ratio. Bump, about Brian Thomas, Nice Call Bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raffyD Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Bump, about Brian Thomas, Nice Call Bit BIG TIME! Great thread to read today, thanks CH and nice work to both you and bit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Bryan Thomas is going to have a good year. He played better than Abraham anyway. By the end of the season, it will be John who? This is the amazing one. Can't Hackett, please PM me your picks for this week's powerball lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoFlaJets Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 Were the cops chasing you or something? POTW nom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cant Hackett Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 This is the amazing one. Can't Hackett, please PM me your picks for this week's powerball lottery. I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cant Hackett Posted December 2, 2006 Share Posted December 2, 2006 POTW nom Green DNA, This must be art; it stood the test of time (posted 6/14/06) Is this a record for POTM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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