Wes Welker? Seriously?

[Matt39]

Welker gets open and stays open because most teams double and triple Randy Moss because he is by far the most dangerous player on the Pats offense.

The goal in playing the Pats is to make Welker beat you. That right there should tell you who is more important to the Pats offense.

So in other words: teams would rather Welker catch 10 passes for 85 yards and possibly a TD than have Moss catch 7 passes for 168 yards and 3 TDs.

This doesn't require huge brain power to understand. Why this is so difficult for Pats fans like you, Garb, PFSIKH and 124 to grasp is beyond me.

Welker is a nice player. He is not anything special and he is nowhere near as important to the Pats as Moss.

If Welker got hurt, Moss' production wouldn't slip all that much. If Moss got hurt, Welker is ****ed.

Pretty much.

Welker is a pest to defend as he knows how to slip through the cracks and move the chains. But there a lot of guys in the NFL that can do that. Welker isnt a threat in the redzone, nor a threat to break one, which limits his value.

Randy Moss is still an absolute beast. That one handed catch was unreal.

[JiF]

How many other teams run the NE offense? Who are the other players that have put up Welkers type numbers around the league?

There are not even 10 other guys that can do what Welker does.

You Fail. Without Welker moving the chains there arent any long shots down field. Welker gets open quick when teams try to blitz.

And, you thought the "Spread Offense" meant spreading the field lengthwise.

HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!! You are so pathetic. Come brother, you're game is weak and you're love for Welker is weird.

First off, the Spread Offense thingy you are pointing out is silly. I know what the spread offense is dooshy, my college team runs it, that conversation was you assuming I didnt because I got my words mixed up. A little bit different then claiming a player did something on the field when he wasnt even playing.

And to your moronic point about Wes moving the chains. Who has more first downs on the year? Moss or the motivation for your masturbation?

Did Welker make it possible for Randy to make one hand catch down the side line that put you in position for you first points? Did Welker make it possible for Randy to seal the game with a break away catch over the middle of the field? Without Randy, you loss Sunday.

Here's the end of story my man....if your team doesnt have Moss but has Welker, your offense is average at best and teams would shut you down constantly. Moss changes everything. Its simple. And I dont understand why thats not o.k. Why do you have to make Welker more than what he is? Please answer that.

[124]

Here's the end of story my man....if your team doesnt have Moss but has Welker, your offense is average at best and teams would shut you down constantly. Moss changes everything. Its simple. And I dont understand why thats not o.k. Why do you have to make Welker more than what he is? Please answer that.

Yeah, people were really shutting down the New England offense when they didn't have a player like Randy Moss from 2001-2006. They barely won games!

[Klecko73isGod]

Yeah, people were really shutting down the New England offense when they didn't have a player like Randy Moss from 2001-2006. They barely won games!

[Matt39]

Yeah, people were really shutting down the New England offense when they didn't have a player like Randy Moss from 2001-2006. They barely won games!

Joe, who is the only player to play on the two best offenses in NFL history?

[124]

Joe, who is the only player to play on the two best offenses in NFL history?

Matt, how many Super Bowl's did the New England Patriots win without a player like Randy Moss?

BTW, how many Super Bowl's has Randy Moss won?

Yep.

WHO CARES!!! New England does NOT need him to succeed, he is a simple luxury that came on the cheap and if he were to leave New England the Patriots would continue to win with ease 11-14 games a season. There would be things that would have to change, but the Patriots could do it. They've proven it THREE TIMES before.

[Matt39]

Matt, how many Super Bowl's did the New England Patriots win without a player like Randy Moss?

BTW, how many Super Bowl's has Randy Moss won?

Yep.

WHO CARES!!! New England does NOT need him to succeed, he is a simple luxury that came on the cheap and if he were to leave New England the Patriots would continue to win with ease 11-14 games a season. There would be things that would have to change, but the Patriots could do it. They've proven it THREE TIMES before.

Randy Moss is a luxury??? Cmon....

Take Moss away from that offense and they scare no one.

Those Super Bowl wins get further and further in the rear view mirror.

[124]

Randy Moss is a luxury??? Cmon....

Take Moss away from that offense and they scare no one.

Those Super Bowl wins get further and further in the rear view mirror.

Who on those championship New England offenses scared you? David Patten? Deion Branch? Troy Brown?

Nobody and guess what, they still won.

As long as Belichick is coaching and Brady is behind center they could probably win with 5 Brad Smith's at the Wide Receiver position.

[Matt39]

Who on those championship New England offenses scared you? David Patten? Deion Branch? Troy Brown?

Nobody and guess what, they still won.

As long as Belichick is coaching and Brady is behind center they could probably win with 5 Brad Smith's at the Wide Receiver position.

The Pats defense was better during their Super Bowl run.

Hey, I hope the Pats see Randy as just a luxury and hope they get rid of him.

But what youre essentially saying is that the Pats can win with 5 bums playing WR- therefore making your boy Welker pretty replaceable, no?

[124]

The Pats defense was better during their Super Bowl run.

Hey, I hope the Pats see Randy as just a luxury and hope they get rid of him.

But what youre essentially saying is that the Pats can win with 5 bums playing WR- therefore making your boy Welker pretty replaceable, no?

He's as replaceable as Moss in New England.

However, Welker's style of play fits the New England system better whether it be the 01-06 system or the 07-present system.

[Matt39]

He's as replaceable as Moss in New England.

However, Welker's style of play fits the New England system better whether it be the 01-06 system or the 07-present system.

Nice edit Joe.

[neckdemon]

Matt, how many Super Bowl's did the New England Patriots win without a player like Randy Moss?

BTW, how many Super Bowl's has Randy Moss won?

Yep.

WHO CARES!!! New England does NOT need him to succeed, he is a simple luxury that came on the cheap and if he were to leave New England the Patriots would continue to win with ease 11-14 games a season. There would be things that would have to change, but the Patriots could do it. They've proven it THREE TIMES before.

the defense on those other patriots teams was twice the defense they have now.

[124]

the defense on those other patriots teams was twice the defense they have now.

Very true, but that doesn't mean their offense was some crap machine that only put up 7-14 points a game. That offense won it's fair share of games with a bunch of ****ing nobodies and a warn down Corey Dillion.

[JiF]

Yeah, people were really shutting down the New England offense when they didn't have a player like Randy Moss from 2001-2006. They barely won games!

Oh gawd here comes the somewhat Jets fan that defends everything Pats.

And what does this have to do with the argument at hand?

Those teams won because of defense. They were totally different then what we see today. Today, take away Moss and the team is mediocre at best. Moss wins them games now. Not Welker, not their D. Randy Moss and Tom Brady are the reason why the Pats win games.

[Alk]

While it's ridiculous to discount the greatness that is Randy Moss, why is it so hard for people to give Welker the credit he deserves?

[Matt39]

While it's ridiculous to discount the greatness that is Randy Moss, why is it so hard for people to give Welker the credit he deserves?

I dont think anyone is discrediting Welker. But to say he's a higher impact player than Moss is absurd.

[JiF]

I dont think anyone is discrediting Welker. But to say he's a higher impact player than Moss is absurd.

This. And the fact that most Patsie fans make him out to be elite, which he is not. He's a good player, nothing more, nothing less. IMO you can stick 50 players in that role and get the same production.

Moss makes that offense click, not Welker. I dont get why that cant be recognized by the Patsie fans. Its like they wont admit it to be true so they can prove how brilliant of a move it was by the Patsies to trade for Welker. Which is just stupid and childish like most Patsies.

[jakeG]

This. And the fact that most Patsie fans make him out to be elite, which he is not. He's a good player, nothing more, nothing less. IMO you can stick 50 players in that role and get the same production.

Moss makes that offense click, not Welker. I dont get why that cant be recognized by the Patsie fans. Its like they wont admit it to be true so they can prove how brilliant of a move it was by the Patsies to trade for Welker. Which is just stupid and childish like most Patsies.

it's because Pat fans know everything and are never wrong,will never admit that

they cheated either thru cameras or via radio jamming of signals.

we really need more Steeler fans to post here...pat fans have jumped the shark, i mean Welker

[Alk]

This. And the fact that most Patsie fans make him out to be elite, which he is not. He's a good player, nothing more, nothing less. IMO you can stick 50 players in that role and get the same production.

Moss makes that offense click, not Welker. I dont get why that cant be recognized by the Patsie fans. Its like they wont admit it to be true so they can prove how brilliant of a move it was by the Patsies to trade for Welker. Which is just stupid and childish like most Patsies.

Are you denying that it was a brilliant move?

[JiF]

it's because Pat fans know everything and are never wrong,will never admit that

they cheated either thru cameras or via radio jamming of signals.

we really need more Steeler fans to post here...pat fans have jumped the shark, i mean Welker

Patsies fans arrogance is amazing. Its like they are better class of citizen because their team won a couple of championships. And consequently, now they are also the most knowledgeable Football fans in the world when 10 years ago they didnt even know it existed. Now they act like the invented the game and their HC developed the only recipe for success in the NFL.

Are you denying that it was a brilliant move?

Nope. It was a great move. But not as good as getting possibly the GOAT at WR for a 3rd round pick. That was more impressive and has had more of an impact on your team.

[PFSIKH]

This. And the fact that most Patsie fans make him out to be elite, which he is not. He's a good player, nothing more, nothing less. IMO you can stick 50 players in that role and get the same production.

Moss makes that offense click, not Welker. I dont get why that cant be recognized by the Patsie fans. Its like they wont admit it to be true so they can prove how brilliant of a move it was by the Patsies to trade for Welker. Which is just stupid and childish like most Patsies.

How?

A Brady led offense was in the Top 10 in points scored in 5 of his first 6 years (i.e. Pre-Moss). They averaged no worse then 21.8 PPG in any given season. They average just under 24 points a game at 23.9 ppg for his first 6 years.

The Patriots offense clicked without Randy. They put up yards and points and won titles without him.

Since Randy's arrival, the Patriots have averaged 30.6 ppg. They are more explosive with him as his speed stretches the field. Randy makes the offense more dynamic. Troy Brown, Deoin Branch and Wes make it click.

No one denies what Randy adds to the offense. However, it would still be a good offense without him like it was the 6 years before he arrived. It just wouldn't be great.

[Klecko73isGod]

How?

A Brady led offense was in the Top 10 in points scored in 5 of his first 6 years (i.e. Pre-Moss). They averaged no worse then 21.8 PPG in any given season. They average just under 24 points a game at 23.9 ppg for his first 6 years.

The Patriots offense clicked without Randy. They put up yards and points and won titles without him.

Since Randy's arrival, the Patriots have averaged 30.6 ppg. They are more explosive with him as his speed stretches the field. Randy makes the offense more dynamic. Troy Brown, Deoin Branch and Wes make it click.

No one denies what Randy adds to the offense. However, it would still be a good offense without him like it was the 6 years before he arrived. It just wouldn't be great.

Lose Randy Moss and the offense becomes average at best.

[neckdemon]

Nope. It was a great move. But not as good as getting possibly the GOAT at WR for a 3rd round pick. That was more impressive and has had more of an impact on your team.

it really wasn't that impressive that they got randy for moss for not very much. moss forced the raiders into teh partnership. he wouldn't have gone anywhere else.

[jakeG]

it really wasn't that impressive that they got randy for moss for not very much. moss forced the raiders into teh partnership. he wouldn't have gone anywhere else.

Correct in fact pats were working him out before trade occured

[GodWearsAGrayHoodie]

Arguing who is more important to the success of the Patriots offense Moss or Welker is a lot like arguing if the peanut butter or the chocolate is more important to the sucess of a Resses Peanut Butter Cup. Both play a vital but different role.

Moss is an outstanding number 1 deep threat WR, certaintly HOF bound. His stretching the field and deep threat is often the reason why Welker is left open. But Moss is hardly the only deep threat WR in the league. There are dozens of other WR in the league that if they ran deep would draw double coverage particularly with an elite QB like Brady being the passer.

Welker moves the chains. He catches almost every pass thrown his direction and has outstanding YAC. He keeps drives alive and provides a safety valve for Brady to avoid a sack. While some of Welker's success is Moss drawing double coverage, Welker often gets himself open on his own. While he is not the fastest WR in the league (as measured by the 40), he is very quick. He had the top cones time at his combine. This is why he is often open and often gets YAC.

IMHO, if Moss was replaced with another solid deep threat #1 WR, the Patriots offense would keep humming along, although with fewer 30 yard plus plays. If Welker was replaced the offense would have some difficulty moving the chains at times as was seen in the Pats-Jets game, but the Patriots would still remain a formible offense.

[GodWearsAGrayHoodie]

it really wasn't that impressive that they got randy for moss for not very much. moss forced the raiders into teh partnership. he wouldn't have gone anywhere else.

He was also willing to go to Greenbay (and Favre wanted him very much). Greenbay offered a 5th, Patriots offered a 4th.

[JiF]

How?

A Brady led offense was in the Top 10 in points scored in 5 of his first 6 years (i.e. Pre-Moss). They averaged no worse then 21.8 PPG in any given season. They average just under 24 points a game at 23.9 ppg for his first 6 years.

The Patriots offense clicked without Randy. They put up yards and points and won titles without him.

Since Randy's arrival, the Patriots have averaged 30.6 ppg. They are more explosive with him as his speed stretches the field. Randy makes the offense more dynamic. Troy Brown, Deoin Branch and Wes make it click.

No one denies what Randy adds to the offense. However, it would still be a good offense without him like it was the 6 years before he arrived. It just wouldn't be great.

With Randy Moss your offense is dynamic and for one season, was the best I'v ever seen. He broke the TD record for a single season while your QB broke that record as well. You guys almost ran the table. That was not being accomplished in your glory days when any time you won something that mattered, you'd win by the leg of Vinateri.

And you finally admitted what I've been saying all along. Your offense would be good without Randy, but not great. He makes the offense great, not Welker. And you citing players like Branch and Brown only further support that a ton of players can step in and play the role that Welker currently plays. Only Welker has the benefit of playing with Randy Moss so his number are inflatted in such a way that Branch and Brown never had the chance to advantage of...this is really a simple deal my man, not rocket science.

it really wasn't that impressive that they got randy for moss for not very much. moss forced the raiders into teh partnership. he wouldn't have gone anywhere else.

I remember this, but thats still my point...forcing the Raiders hands from both Moss' perspective and the Pats is impressive and whats more impressive is that he's been a model citizen since and what looks like a great teammate.

Edited November 11, 2009 by JiF

[StillerPaul]

This freakin' thread will never die will it ?

Safe to say that given the choice Patty fans would rather have Welker than Moss ??

[Gainzo]

This freakin' thread will never die will it ?

Safe to say that given the choice Patty fans would rather have Welker than Moss ??

I would rather have both. Lets go back to September of 2007 when this epic thread was started..........................

Why is this scrub mentioned in the same breath as Randy Moss and Dante Stallworth? Am I the only person who thinks he's an overpaid never was?

The rest of the comments on the 1st page show that a lot of Jets fans "get it" when it comes to what Welker does.

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40965

[PFSIKH]

With Randy Moss your offense is dynamic and for one season, was the best I'v ever seen. He broke the TD record for a single season while your QB broke that record as well. You guys almost ran the table. That was not being accomplished in your glory days when any time you won something that mattered, you'd win by the leg of Vinateri.

And you finally admitted what I've been saying all along. Your offense would be good without Randy, but not great. He makes the offense great, not Welker. And you citing players like Branch and Brown only further support that a ton of players can step in and play the role that Welker currently plays. Only Welker has the benefit of playing with Randy Moss so his number are inflatted in such a way that Branch and Brown never had the chance to advantage of...this is really a simple deal my man, not rocket science.

I remember this, but thats still my point...forcing the Raiders hands from both Moss' perspective and the Pats is impressive and whats more impressive is that he's been a model citizen since and what looks like a great teammate.

Dude I have been saying the same thing.

I said it when they picked him up when a lot of naysayers **cough Jet fans cough** said he was poison.

Randy was not a bad person. He made mistakes no doubt, but he was not the clown someone like Larry Johnson is.

[jakeG]

Dude I have been saying the same thing.

I said it when they picked him up when a lot of naysayers **cough Jet fans cough** said he was poison.

Randy was not a bad person. He made mistakes no doubt, but he was not the clown someone like Larry Johnson is.

He ran over a women cop and lost scholly's to ND and Fla State because

he was a gansta. Real nice guy

Edited November 11, 2009 by jakeG

[StillerPaul]

I would rather have both. Lets go back to September of 2007 when this epic thread was started..........................

The rest of the comments on the 1st page show that a lot of Jets fans "get it" when it comes to what Welker does.

http://www.jetnation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40965

You didn't answer the question. Which player could the Patty's least afford to lose ?

I know for my team that Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace are speedsters AND good route runners but Hines Ward missing time would hurt Steelers O more imo.

[124]

You didn't answer the question. Which player could the Patty's least afford to lose ?

I know for my team that Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace are speedsters AND good route runners but Hines Ward missing time would hurt Steelers O more imo.

The Patriots can win with a bunch of Wes Welker's, they've proven that before. Has everyone forgotten the Wide Receiving Core of THE CHAMPION 2001, 2003 and 2004 New England teams?

They don't need Randy Moss to succeed. They need Randy Moss to have one of the top 3 offenses in the NFL, yes, but they don't need him to have a very good, 6-10 ranking offense, and they don't need him to win Championships.

[Thor99]

The Patriots can win with a bunch of Wes Welker's, they've proven that before. Has everyone forgotten the Wide Receiving Core of THE CHAMPION 2001, 2003 and 2004 New England teams?

They don't need Randy Moss to succeed. They need Randy Moss to have one of the top 3 offenses in the NFL, yes, but they don't need him to have a very good, 6-10 ranking offense, and they don't need him to win Championships.

Joe, check out this link.

[124]

Joe, check out this link.