Maxman Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 No you're not. And anyone to claims to be able to contextualize players by watching games has no idea what they are talking about. Wait watching people play sport isn't the best way to judge talent? I may have misread your post, let me know if I did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Ok, so scouts/evaluators should no longer attend or watch games. Just make a judgement calculating box scores. Ok. Great idea. And you havent explained a thing. Why doesnt speed contribute to gauging how good ofa player someone is? You think Carl Crawford minus his speed is nearly as good as he is with Giambi's speed? Ask Dave Roberts and the 04 Yankees if speed plays a role. This is so absurd I shouldnt even acknowledge it. They should watch games. But anyone who thinks they can judge a player based solely on watching then and ignoring their factual track record is a fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Why doesnt speed contribute to gauging how good ofa player someone is? You think Carl Crawford minus his speed is nearly as good as he is with Giambi's speed? No he's not. But giambi is much better at getting on base than crawford is. Why don't you hear boston fans bitch and complain about ortiz clogging up the bases? By your twisted logic he's worthless too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 They should watch games. But anyone who thinks they can judge a player based solely on watching then and ignoring their factual track record is a fool. I never siad they should evaluate their numbers. Unlike you though, I know numbers never tell the entire story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Ok, so scouts/evaluators should no longer attend or watch games. Just make a judgement calculating box scores. Ok. Great idea. And you havent explained a thing. Why doesnt speed contribute to gauging how good ofa player someone is? You think Carl Crawford minus his speed is nearly as good as he is with Giambi's speed? Ask Dave Roberts and the 04 Yankees if speed plays a role. This is so absurd I shouldnt even acknowledge it. I've had this discussion with MadMike before and mentioned Dave Roberts. He seems to treat it as if the entire season is played all at one time on a piece of paper. He doesn't understand situational baseball which is why he calls stolen bases "meaningless" despite the fact that it can be a HUGE offensive weapon in certain situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 because there is no evidence that a player's speed or lack thereof takes away for their ability to keep from making out. something giambi is VERY good at. -Infield roller up third base, which player stands a better chance of beating it out-Jose Reyes or Jason Giambi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFJF Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 -Infield roller up third base, which player stands a better chance of beating it out-Jose Reyes or Jason Giambi? It doesn't matter...Giambi would walk or hit an OPS out of the park Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 I never siad they should evaluate their numbers. Unlike you though, I know numbers never tell the entire story. They tell a great deal of it. And there is nothing you can observe at a baseball game to lessen the value of a guy having a 440 OBP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 They should watch games. But anyone who thinks they can judge a player based solely on watching then and ignoring their factual track record is a fool. Then, there have been many "fools" that have far greater success in managing baseball teams than you have ever had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 It doesn't matter...Giambi would walk or hit an OPS out of the park Of course you don't get it. Typical. The number of times Reyes can beat out an infield hit are small and far between and giambi gets on base so much more than he does that it's impossible for reyes to make that up. BTW if reyes was able to use his speed to get on base so much wouldn't his OBP be better than the mediocrity it is? This is what happens when people think they can make judgments just from watching games because they have no context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Of course you don't get it. Typical. The number of times Reyes can beat out an infield hit are small and far between and giambi gets on base so much more than he does that it's impossible for reyes to make that up. BTW if reyes was able to use his speed to get on base so much wouldn't his OBP be better than the mediocrity it is? This is what happens when people think they can make judgments just from watching games because they have no context. Well, if you bothered to watch the game at all, you would realize that Jose Reyes is a young player that is learning the strike zone, as many young players have to do. He has had to learn the strike zone. Jose Reyes at age 24, his OBP was .354. It was level to last year, but risen substantially each succeeding year Jason Giambi at age 25 (his first FULL year in teh Bigs) .355. OBP Brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Dierking Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 They tell a great deal of it. And there is nothing you can observe at a baseball game to lessen the value of a guy having a 440 OBP. .440 OBP? LOL-That was THREE years ago, Last 2 years OBP? .413 last year. .356 this year. How is Mike Lowell "declining" yet Giambi isn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 He did what was best for his client. Allowing the Yanks to have exclusive negotiating rites to A-Rod does not serve his client. I think is foolish for the Yankees to draw that line in the sand. Who are they going to rebuild around? Jeter? Tori Hunter? Yanks better hope those young guns MadMike worships come through. Otherwise, the Yankees are going to struggle to hold off Toronto. jeter and a-rod are a year apart, you cant rebuld around A-rod either pal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Explain how its moronic. You dont think Giambi being slow hinders the people behind him from scoring? This is pretty logical. A guy like Damon walking is more valuable than having Giambi walk. Remember the time that Giambi got to second base from first at the same time Bubba Crosby got there from home? That would've been a double, but because Giambi was on first, it was a single (and Crosby was out-- that was his own fault). Instead of having a runner on third, the Yankees had one on second.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Watched every game. Im a pretty decent evaluator of talent. Has anyone ever met one of these saber geeks in real life? Mike you must be the life of the party. Sabermetrics are great, but take them in context. Giambi is a prime example of the failure of a pure statistical analysis. (or maybe you are just looking at the wrong stats?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 They should watch games. But anyone who thinks they can judge a player based solely on watching then and ignoring their factual track record is a fool. Absolutely right, you need to do both. Which is why your refusal to consider evidence from WATCHING Giambi alongside his sabermetric stats is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uart Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 No he's not. But giambi is much better at getting on base than crawford is. Why don't you hear boston fans bitch and complain about ortiz clogging up the bases? By your twisted logic he's worthless too... Ortiz is faster than Giambi (FWIW, EVERYONE is faster than Giambi), and a better hitter than Giambi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted October 31, 2007 Share Posted October 31, 2007 Ortiz is an infinitely better hitter than Giambi. Its not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Ortiz is an infinitely better hitter than Giambi. Its not even close. Not when giambi is healthy. In 05 and 06 their numbers were very similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Not when giambi is healthy. In 05 and 06 their numbers were very similar. No they werent. now you're just lying. ANd back to your comment about Oritz being slow. Here are some numbers for you.He had 52 doubles this year. A number Giambi has never came close to as a Yankee. ButI suppose extra base hits dont matter either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 No they werent. now you're just lying. ANd back to your comment about Oritz being slow. Here are some numbers for you.He had 52 doubles this year. A number Giambi has never came close to as a Yankee. ButI suppose extra base hits dont matter either. Ortiz has lots of doubles because he plays in the best doubles park in the majors. Fly balls are doubles in fenway. Look at the numbers. They are in the same ballpark in years where giambi is healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Ortiz has lots of doubles because he plays in the best doubles park in the majors. Fly balls are doubles in fenway. Look at the numbers. They are in the same ballpark in years where giambi is healthy. Its more of a testament of Giambis lack of ability to drive the ball into the gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Its more of a testament of Giambis lack of ability to drive the ball into the gaps. BS. He had the power to hit 40 homers every year he's healthy but he can't drive it in to gaps? Give me a break. He'd have 40 doubles in fenway too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt39 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 BS. He had the power to hit 40 homers every year he's healthy but he can't drive it in to gaps? Give me a break. He'd have 40 doubles in fenway too. Ortiz is much better at going the opposite way. And its not like Giambi doesnt have the luxury of playing with the shortest porch in baseball. Many of his homeruns are outs in other stadiums. Driving balls to the gaps isnt about power, it what good hitters do. LIke Bobby Abreu for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Not when giambi is healthy. In 05 and 06 their numbers were very similar. Ortiz 2005: .300 BA, 47 HR, 148 RBI 2006: .287 BA, 54 HR, 137 RBI Giambi 2005: .271 BA, 32 HR, 87 RBI 2006: .253 BA, 37 HR, 113 RBI I don't any similarities. Does anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ECURB Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Ortiz 2005: .300 BA, 47 HR, 148 RBI 2006: .287 BA, 54 HR, 137 RBI Giambi 2005: .271 BA, 32 HR, 87 RBI 2006: .253 BA, 37 HR, 113 RBI I don't any similarities. Does anyone else? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmike1 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Ortiz 2005: .300 BA, 47 HR, 148 RBI 2006: .287 BA, 54 HR, 137 RBI Giambi 2005: .271 BA, 32 HR, 87 RBI 2006: .253 BA, 37 HR, 113 RBI I don't any similarities. Does anyone else? BA and RBI's mean nothing. Their OPS's in 05 were the same and they were close in 06 though ortiz was better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxman Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Ortiz 2005: .300 BA, 47 HR, 148 RBI 2006: .287 BA, 54 HR, 137 RBI Giambi 2005: .271 BA, 32 HR, 87 RBI 2006: .253 BA, 37 HR, 113 RBI I don't any similarities. Does anyone else? Oh sure throw the RBI out there. Please what would it be like if Giambi had a 4,000 career hit guy in front of him. Then lets see what he can do. Giambi had nobody on. He carried that team. Jeter, Damon, Abreu, ARod hitting in front of poor Jason. Please can we get some support around that guy. Posada and Cano in back of him. No wonder he walks so much. He is wrapped around guys that make the league minimum for crying out loud. Cashman wake up and fix this. Stop reading your kids book. Move Giambi to 3B and let's go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Oh sure throw the RBI out there. Please what would it be like if Giambi had a 4,000 career hit guy in front of him. Then lets see what he can do. Giambi had nobody on. He carried that team. Jeter, Damon, Abreu, ARod hitting in front of poor Jason. Please can we get some support around that guy. Posada and Cano in back of him. No wonder he walks so much. He is wrapped around guys that make the league minimum for crying out loud. Cashman wake up and fix this. Stop reading your kids book. Move Giambi to 3B and let's go. POTW nom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai Jet Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 BA and RBI's mean nothing. Their OPS's in 05 were the same and they were close in 06 though ortiz was better. Gheeese Mike now you're just talking like an idiot. GGGGGGGet real for once will you or just ignore the baseball forum like you were going too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai Jet Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Ortiz 2005: .300 BA, 47 HR, 148 RBI 2006: .287 BA, 54 HR, 137 RBI Giambi 2005: .271 BA, 32 HR, 87 RBI 2006: .253 BA, 37 HR, 113 RBI I don't any similarities. Does anyone else? Nice !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 BA and RBI's mean nothing. Their OPS's in 05 were the same and they were close in 06 though ortiz was better. Same OPS in '05 and Ortiz was better in '06. That is your retort? Lame. Very lame. RBI's don't count? How can teams win without players driving in runs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor99 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Same OPS in '05 and Ortiz was better in '06. That is your retort? Lame. Very lame. RBI's don't count? How can teams win without players driving in runs? It doesn't matter who wins. VORP, ERA+, and OBP are all that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gainzo Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 It doesn't matter who wins. VORP, ERA+, and OBP are all that matter. Sorry. madmike told me that winning is "lucky." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor99 Posted November 1, 2007 Share Posted November 1, 2007 Sorry. madmike told me that winning is "lucky." It's true. How else can you explain Wang's success? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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