The receivers are becoming a problem.

[Aten]

So your original premise of this thread is that the receivers are giving up on plays and Sanchez is scrambling needlessly "for no reason" because of them, and now you're saying that the above are mainly the two reasons why he isn't getting rid of the ball?

Yes. Sanchez doesn't get the ball out fast enough and when the play breaks down the receivers give up. And?

[slats]

Big test this week for the Jets. The Texans have the worst pass defense in the NFL.

[RutgersJetFan]

Yes. Sanchez doesn't get the ball out fast enough and when the play breaks down the receivers give up. And?

I'm a simple guy, in the words of Floyd in Boogie Nights, "I like simple pleasures, like butter in my a$$, lollipops in my mouth. That's just me. That's just something that I enjoy." And this may come off as crazy, perhaps insane, maybe even delusion I tell you, but those two things just may be related to each other.

[Aten]

And this may come off as crazy, perhaps insane, maybe even delusion I tell you, but those two things just may be related to each other.

Yes. As has been discussed. In this thread. Again, and?

[RutgersJetFan]

Yes. As has been discussed. In this thread. Again, and?

Hey, you tell me Dieter, you're the one that decided to break the vow of silence and actually respond to a post of mine. If there's that much of a problem, for you, with me posting relevant info to the topic at hand in any thread on your end, perhaps you should consider going back to it.

[Smashmouth]

Maybe they were already a problem, I don't know. This was the first game I've seen in person this year so I'm really not sure. In any event, they gave up on a lot of plays yesterday. There were a bunch of times when Sanchez was scrambling around keeping the play alive for basically no reason because the receivers had just stopped running. In a game that was one possession all the way and went to the last minute of overtime. Keller was the worst, but Cotchery and Holmes too and basically everybody else besides Tomlinson. Ridiculously dogsh*t effort.

Ive seen this ALOT from Keller and it should be hammered home that this kind of sh*t is going on. Once again this falls in sh*tty's freakin lap.

[Sperm Edwards]

The reason the first TD of the game to Cotchery was even a TD was because he held the ball and waited for the play to develop. You can't have it both ways.

That is an outright fabrication. He wasn't covered and then got open after several seconds. Cotchery was open - and open by >10 yards - for his entire route. They only showed it 5x; this is total nonsense to suggest Cotchery only got open after the play developed.

[Sperm Edwards]

Really? Name 'em.

Rick Mirer

Erik Kramer

Tony Banks

Trent Dilfer

Kyle Boller

Steve Senstrum

Elvis Grbac

This is the Holy Grail of QB talent that Matt Cavanaugh has dealt with. He managed to win a super bowl and have a #8 ranked O along the way. Almost every one of those guys did better than their career average under Cavanaugh. Kramer and Grbac were two of the only decent ones and they were on their way out of the league. Boller was progressing, then they brought in Fassel and he got hurt.

Grbac was garbage with Cavanaugh. Then Grbac got away from him to KC and became a pro bowler. Then he returned to Cavanaugh at age 30 while still in his prime and his career was over at the end of the season, and not due to injury or being benched.

Kramer played at a pro bowl level in '95. After 4 games with Cavanaugh in '96 he got hurt and was out for the year. But in those 4 games he had 3 TD's and 6 picks. At 32 he wasn't quite over the hill but with Baltimore's new offense he played like it. By the way, Cavanaugh was gone after 2 years and the following year Kramer was better for that half-season.

Mirer sucked. Badly. But he was never worse than he was under Cavanaugh.

Boller never developed under Cavanaugh. Ditto Clemens. Banks and Favre sucked.

There are QB's in there who had good success before getting near Cavanaugh and then again after they got away from him.

[jason423]

I drew some attention to that a few weeks ago (the Packers game) when I heard the announcers mention it and its pretty much true. They do very little to bail the guy out. I dont think it hurt them this week because he did a far better job of using his runners than normal, but most weeks when the line plays well its a killer. He dances and dances and dances in the pocket and we have 4 receivers standing 30 yards down the field waiting to see what happens.

[PatsFanTX]

Maybe he did make that comment, but I want more Schotty bashing rather than concentrating on Sanchez. You seriously can't tell me you have nothing negative to say about the Jets play design, offensive philosophy and play calling. That has got to be a better use of your time than just bashing Sanchez exclusively.

I've been pretty consistent on my views on Shotty.

Is he the best OC in the NFL? No

Does he take too much heat from Jets fans when the offense sputters? Yes

Sanchez holding the ball to long and receivers not getting separation have nothing to do with play calls.

[stoicsentry]

Instead of actually picking on things that should be picked on, you've become a total troll. Simms made the comment after the Holmes TD in OT to win the game. A complete pass that went for a TD to win the game, off of a slant, the first actual route run all game.

So what you are trying to tell me is that our receivers (that's excluding running backs) put up 200 yards receiving, and all they were running was streaks all day? Yeah, um... no.

[SenorGato]

No NFL quarterback should be holding the ball for 4+ seconds like Sanchez does routinely. Something is wrong, either he's not seeing the open guys or he's too indecisive. No way that between Edwards, Holmes, Keller and Smith/Tomlinson/Cotchery NO ONE is getting open. The only reason he hasn't gotten decapitated yet is because our offensive line is awesome.

+1

This.

On the WRs...They need to work on coming back to the ball. You'd think Holmes would be a natural at that considering his old QB. Edwards has actually been working on that lately, but it's still nowhere near enough to offset Sanchez's indecisiveness. Keller....Keller is still a highly inconsistent player...I'm not sure what his problem is that he can disappear for chunks at a time like he does.

The possibility is that we have the worst offensive coaching staff in the league. Schottenheimer is terrible at the OC thing. Cavanaugh...Jeebus his resume is fairly garbage. Ellard isn't making his guys more aware. Pretty much the only guy worth his salt is Callahan, and he sucks too.

Still, this is an NFL offense and so it probably comes down to the QB as much as it does anyone else. He looks good avoiding sacks and stuff and that gets everyone high on him, but he's still miles away from greatness.

[SenorGato]

So what you are trying to tell me is that our receivers (that's excluding running backs) put up 200 yards receiving, and all they were running was streaks all day? Yeah, um... no.

Just keep in mind that this is the same guy who said we don't run enough screens on offense. You know, because that's the difference maker right there...

[JetsFan220]

I'm just going to stay quiet regarding Keller for now. But you should see it...

Yesterdays game was teh first game that I noticed him barely running off the snap of the ball...One play in particular it was less then a light jog and it was late in the game when we needed a play.

This is the first time I have noticed it, but he dogged it on a couple of routes.

[SenorGato]

Maybe he did make that comment, but I want more Schotty bashing rather than concentrating on Sanchez. You seriously can't tell me you have nothing negative to say about the Jets play design, offensive philosophy and play calling. That has got to be a better use of your time than just bashing Sanchez exclusively.

May I ask a question...how much exactly do you know about the offensive play design and offensive philosophy?

If it's alot, do you mind scanning in the copies of the offensive playbook? It can't be long...there's no routes or screens or intermediate balls or deep balls or short passes...probably very few run plays...

[THE ILK]

May I ask a question...how much exactly do you know about the offensive play design and offensive philosophy?

If it's alot, do you mind scanning in the copies of the offensive playbook? It can't be long...there's no routes or screens or intermediate balls or deep balls or short passes...probably very few run plays...

[flgreen]

The reason the first TD of the game to Cotchery was even a TD was because he held the ball and waited for the play to develop. You can't have it both ways.

Don’t know about that.

Cotchery was open immediately. No one covered him. The point of the OP is valid. Seems like the WR’s run their called route then give up on the play. I’ve noticed that before

[THE ILK]

Don’t know about that.

Cotchery was open immediately. No one covered him. The point of the OP is valid. Seems like the WR’s run their called route then give up on the play. I’ve noticed that before

Perhaps it has something to do with the coaches not wanting them to do anything where Sanchez will force something into a pick?

I don't know, I'm just trying to make some sense out of this.

[flgreen]

The come back play when the QB escapes the pocket and is running around is one of the hardest plays for a DB to cover, and often results in a big play if the WR, and QB are on the same page.

Usually if the QB misfires it will be short and in the dirt as the WR is coming toward him.

I haven’t a clue why the Jets WR’s don’t seem to be doing it more

[Poohaa]

delete

[slats]

delete

Outstanding first post! Welcome to the site!

[#27TheDominator]

Grbac was garbage with Cavanaugh. Then Grbac got away from him to KC and became a pro bowler. Then he returned to Cavanaugh at age 30 while still in his prime and his career was over at the end of the season, and not due to injury or being benched.

Kramer played at a pro bowl level in '95. After 4 games with Cavanaugh in '96 he got hurt and was out for the year. But in those 4 games he had 3 TD's and 6 picks. At 32 he wasn't quite over the hill but with Baltimore's new offense he played like it. By the way, Cavanaugh was gone after 2 years and the following year Kramer was better for that half-season.

Mirer sucked. Badly. But he was never worse than he was under Cavanaugh.

Boller never developed under Cavanaugh. Ditto Clemens. Banks and Favre sucked.

There are QB's in there who had good success before getting near Cavanaugh and then again after they got away from him.

Am I missing something? Cavanaugh was an "offensive assistant" with Arizona (with Buddy, Rex and Rob) in 1994-1995 and SF in 1996. He was OC in Chicago in 1997-1998 and then Baltimore from 1999-2004. Looking at pro football reference, I think your numbers are way off. We're talking about Erik Kramer, not the Tommy Kramer. The one that was a replacement player. I never remember him being near the pro bowl, but he was adequate under Cavanaugh. Cavanaugh wasn't there in 1996 when he got hurt. When Cavangaugh left, so did Kramer who had 2 TDs an 10 INTs with San Diego and then he was out of football.

Grbac got away from Cavanaugh? How? He was in Baltimore for one season. His last. He was adequate, but no big deal and had trouble adjusting to replacing Dilfer and having Cunningham behind him. It's Cavanaugh's fault he's out of the league?

Boller was improving under Cavanaugh when Billick elected to go with Fassel. Boller started as a rookie and improved. He never progressed past that point under Fassel, Billick or anybody else.

Personally I don't think the QB coach deserves too much for the QB's performance, but Favre was tearing up the league when he got hurt. That's Cavanaugh's fault?

[SenorGato]

The come back play when the QB escapes the pocket and is running around is one of the hardest plays for a DB to cover, and often results in a big play if the WR, and QB are on the same page.

Usually if the QB misfires it will be short and in the dirt as the WR is coming toward him.

I haven’t a clue why the Jets WR’s don’t seem to be doing it more

98% percent of any of the perceived offensive problems can be fixed by one man playing better:

Otherwise, we will never have the perfect offense envisioned by everyone.

[Sperm Edwards]

Am I missing something? Cavanaugh was an "offensive assistant" with Arizona (with Buddy, Rex and Rob) in 1994-1995 and SF in 1996. He was OC in Chicago in 1997-1998 and then Baltimore from 1999-2004. Looking at pro football reference, I think your numbers are way off. We're talking about Erik Kramer, not the Tommy Kramer. The one that was a replacement player. I never remember him being near the pro bowl, but he was adequate under Cavanaugh. Cavanaugh wasn't there in 1996 when he got hurt. When Cavangaugh left, so did Kramer who had 2 TDs an 10 INTs with San Diego and then he was out of football.

Grbac got away from Cavanaugh? How? He was in Baltimore for one season. His last. He was adequate, but no big deal and had trouble adjusting to replacing Dilfer and having Cunningham behind him. It's Cavanaugh's fault he's out of the league?

Boller was improving under Cavanaugh when Billick elected to go with Fassel. Boller started as a rookie and improved. He never progressed past that point under Fassel, Billick or anybody else.

Personally I don't think the QB coach deserves too much for the QB's performance, but Favre was tearing up the league when he got hurt. That's Cavanaugh's fault?

Grbac retired after 1 season with Cavanaugh without getting injured, while still in his prime. The year before he was a star QB.

Erik Kramer was with Chicago. He threw for like 4000yards, 30 TD's and 10 TD's. The following year Cavanaugh arrived. Kramer then turned into garbage and then got hurt. Then he was mediocre at best the next year. Then Cavanaugh was out. Then Kramer was having a good season without Cavanaugh before screwing up his knee.

If everyone who developed QB's well didn't, then you'd point to these players as never-gonna-be's. Meanwhile under someone else's guidance they turned into something. A coach - the right coach - clearly can make someone into a better player than another coach. Far lesser talents (than the ones Cavanaugh got his hands on) became good or better QB's.

Forget it. He's an awesome, awesome QB coach. Sanchez really knows where to go with the ball right away, he isn't afraid to throw to an open receiver and doesn't wait for him to get even MORE open, and never stands like a statue in the pocket. He's just a kid, and this will improve, but I don't have confidence in the one coaching him. Ask yourself this: if Cavanaugh was so great as a QB coach, why were Rex & co so gung-ho to bring in Mark Brunell who hasn't taken a meaningful snap in 5 years?

[GimmeShelter]

Keller is maddenning, goes from looking like a future star to looking like gholston in back to back plays sometimes. Need to get the dude some cleats or a right foot to go with his two left feet, mutha f'er is always falling down..

I watched for that after Matt posted about it last week and sure enough yesterday he looked to be stumbling while being wide open on what could have been a big gainer.

[Matt39]

I watched for that after Matt posted about it last week and sure enough yesterday he looked to be stumbling while being wide open on what could have been a big gainer.

Its nice to know I wasn't seeing things.

[CTM]

Its nice to know I wasn't seeing things.

Yeah, i agreed with you but didn't have the time to get involved last week. I'm not a big fan of Keller, i don't think he's horrible just very inconsistant and seems to have no grace

[JustInFudge]

Maybe they were already a problem, I don't know. This was the first game I've seen in person this year so I'm really not sure. In any event, they gave up on a lot of plays yesterday. There were a bunch of times when Sanchez was scrambling around keeping the play alive for basically no reason because the receivers had just stopped running. In a game that was one possession all the way and went to the last minute of overtime. Keller was the worst, but Cotchery and Holmes too and basically everybody else besides Tomlinson. Ridiculously dogsh*t effort.

I've often wondered if that was the case. They dont show receivers not getting open as often as they show a Qb missing a wide open WR on TV. He holds the ball so long, is it just because our WR cant get separation? That just seems unbelievable.

[RutgersJetFan]

Yeah, i agreed with you but didn't have the time to get involved last week. I'm not a big fan of Keller, i don't think he's horrible just very inconsistant and seems to have no grace

Maybe he has no intention of *getting* grace.

[serphnx]

There's no excuse for such laziness. The same people that got on Moss for "giving up" and still putting up Pro Bowl seasons are extremely quiet about it here. Moss was never this bad. These guys either just don't try at all or they don't actually have routes or something. I will give Gato that much, maybe these WRs and that TE are just such dogsh*t that they don't try so it just looks like there are no routes.

If that's the case, bench them all for the first quarter at least. I'd really say the first half. Make a statement.

[Damaged89]

These guys either just don't try at all or they don't actually have routes or something. \

I think that maybe the second year QB being slow to make decisions is more plausible than all our receivers just standing there not running routes.

[Damaged89]

Maybe he has no intention of *getting* grace.

Seinfeld!

[SenorGato]

There's no excuse for such laziness. The same people that got on Moss for "giving up" and still putting up Pro Bowl seasons are extremely quiet about it here. Moss was never this bad. These guys either just don't try at all or they don't actually have routes or something. I will give Gato that much, maybe these WRs and that TE are just such dogsh*t that they don't try so it just looks like there are no routes.

If that's the case, bench them all for the first quarter at least. I'd really say the first half. Make a statement.

They're not dogsh*t. It's just that sometimes sh*t happens. For the most part, that's just meant we win by less so far.

This offense's problems are overblown. They can do these great things you guys imagine they should be doing just like that, they just haven't. There's no real damning reason they can't, and really they're not so far from being closer to the '05 Steelers O than the '00 Ravens O. They're 13th in points scored through 9 games, and spent 5-6 of those in the top 10. The Steelers in '05 finished 9th. The Ravens '00 finished 14th, but their QBs were vets who had already proved to be mediocre and threw 19 INTs between them. I just don't see what's so bad about the O...they're pretty much what they were expected to be and there's still 7 games to go.

[serphnx]

They're not dogsh*t. It's just that sometimes sh*t happens. For the most part, that's just meant we win by less so far.

This offense's problems are overblown. They can do these great things you guys imagine they should be doing just like that, they just haven't. There's no real damning reason they can't, and really they're not so far from being closer to the '05 Steelers O than the '00 Ravens O. They're 13th in points scored through 9 games, and spent 5-6 of those in the top 10. The Steelers in '05 finished 9th. The Ravens '00 finished 14th, but their QBs were vets who had already proved to be mediocre and threw 19 INTs between them. I just don't see what's so bad about the O...they're pretty much what they were expected to be and there's still 7 games to go.

I actually read your post this time. Partly because I did mention you so I probably owed it to you.

You can't just go by stats, come on, you know that. You have to go by what you see, there's so much more to a game than stats. Sometimes a QB that throws only for 150 yards has had a better game than one that threw for 300+ yards. The problem is the Jets O is out of sync and struggles so much all the time. It's okay here and there, but this is something like 4 bad games in a row here, where they act like scoring a TD is like moving a mountain. This is the NFL, the rules favor passing offenses. It isn't as hard as they make it out to be.

I want them to function better. I want them to play like the other offenses I watch in this league. You're not going to go score 30 points a game or have a great game every game, that's okay, but with this talent at least there should be stretches where they look good every game. We have way too many 3 and outs.

You overdo it with the Schotty defense, so in turn the rest of us will be less willing to listen. You gotta dial it back a bit man. You gotta be willing to admit the OC can be at fault too. I love Sanchez but I don't act like he is a Pro Bowl QB and the best in the league but just being undone by everything around him.

[SenorGato]

You can't just go by stats, come on, you know that

Is that not what it comes down to, especially when the wins are there too?

Eyes lie.

I want them to function better. I want them to play like the other offenses I watch in this league. You're not going to go score 30 points a game or have a great game every game, that's okay, but with this talent at least there should be stretches where they look good every game. We have way too many 3 and outs.

You're getting your wish. 13th is above average but not quite awesome. I'm not sure what you think NFL offenses should look like, but my guess is that you're thinking of the ones with Peyton, Drew, Phil, and Aaron. We don't have one of those. I also have admitted that the OC is at fault multiple times, just not to the point it's portrayed and certainly not the point where he's not an asset. The Jets offense has been playing very coordinated football for a unit being QB'd by a guy who threw 20 regular season INT last year. I don't see what the difference between them or the defense has been this year...neither is playing up to their potential, yet both have been good enough to win 7 of 9 games.