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Jets interviewing GM finalists again, to make hire by Thursday


Maxman

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. If (when) he hires another cap guy, it will be proof-positive that Woody, indeed, has learned nothing.

if only Dave Caldwell had taken that 1 million dollar housing allowance, and hired Brian Schottenheimer to HC. that would have been awesome.

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If Idzik is the guy- what am i missing he has lot more football operations responsibilities in his career than just cap stuff.

Yes. It's poor reporting to call Idzik a "cap guy."

He's much more than that based on his bio and the articles on him.

The problem under Tanny and Rex is that Tanny has no personnel experience so he relied on Rex who has a skewed view of making up a roster and has no clue how to objectively judge talent because he sees everything through a defensive prism and thinks he can coach anybody.

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Angelo being off the list is the only positive in this article. If those three guys are really the finalists, I'm just about ready to go full T0mShane on this franchise.

Agreed. I think somewhere deep down I knew with Woody we'd end up steering right back towards the white collar side of the candidate pool. He wants so hard for us to be a blue collar football team, but he steers us towards what he knows, spreadsheets and MBAs.

Hopefully Idzik or Khan can build an infrastructure similar to that they were groomed in if they come here. Financial background isn't terrible, if they get the right personnel guy to run the scouting and drafts (which is what Ross does for the Giants, and he's not a GM).

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Dont forget,,Khan or Idzik could know the nerdy lower level personell experts in seattle or Pitts and bring them with them, aka Moneyball

This is what I had in mind talking about recreating the infrastructure of the team they came from.

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I'm not saying blue collar guys can't do it, just that they need to be able to wheel and deal like a white collar guy.

Also,

IMG_3723.JPG

Belichick wins again.

You posted a picture and a name of 2 guys that completely contradict your point about white collar guys being GM.

Ozzie was a player, and Belli might as well be the Pats GM, and he's a football guy too.

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I just said blue collar guys could do it too. That being said, I think white collar guys are more likely to have success. In reality, it doesn't matter what color your collar is as long as you know what you're doing. The GM should listen to his talent evaluators and stat guys and focus on getting undervalued assets. All successful GMs do that. Having followed the MLB for a long time, I think white collar guys are more likely to do that, but if an establishment guy like Belichick or Newsome can do it too, then that's even better.

FWIW, Billy Beane may have pioneered Moneyball, but Sandy Alderson actually laid the groundwork for it. Guess where he is now :)

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What concerns me the most is Woody hired some tube steak either last year or a two years back to be the team president(Neil Glat I believe) from the NFL office, one of Goodells cronies I assume...now seeing the direction they're going in with the GM(profit not personnel) it really makes me wonder what Woody's true intentions are with this franchise...

You need a personnel guy making the ultimate decision with a cap guy in the background letting him know the ramifications long term.

Accually the same headhunting group K/F found Glat for woody.
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What concerns me the most is Woody hired some tube steak either last year or a two years back to be the team president(Neil Glat I believe) from the NFL office, one of Goodells cronies I assume...now seeing the direction they're going in with the GM(profit not personnel) it really makes me wonder what Woody's true intentions are with this franchise...

You need a personnel guy making the ultimate decision with a cap guy in the background letting him know the ramifications long term.

then cohen is your man

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Forgetting even just the NFL for a moment, I'm not sure it's such a crazy concept to think when someone is hired for any job (particularly a high level one), their resume should include at least some sort of experience in the area that will ultimately be the single most important part of that job. Of course there's no guarantee about how good or bad any of these guys will be at the job, but there never is in any hiring process. The point is trying to identify who seems the most likely to be successful and in this case, given the respective resumes, I happen to have my own opinions on that. It's bad business to count on someone being able to "pick up" one of the most complicated aspects of their job when they have no experience in it, while it is also typically an area in which many spend years and years climbing up the professional ladder.

Yes. If the GM is incapable of evaluating talent on his own, then he's left to rely on people under him to make decisions for which he's responsible. This is a terrible model in any field. If you've ever worked for a boss who was brought in from another department that knows jack sh*t about yours, you know what I mean. The GM's primary job is acquiring talent, that should be his #1 qualification. If Khan has some guy that he and the Jets feel they can rely on for personnel decisions, I'd hire that guy as the new GM.

If you didn't comment on all the things you don't know about, you'd be nearly mute except when it came to the topic of watching one's suburban basketball team get dunked on repeatedly by Vince Carter. Woody Johnson has been exposed to only one way of doing business in the NFL, and that was through watching Tannenbaum dicker with agents over the phone. It's all Woody knows about what a GM does. The hope we had in Tannenbaum's firing was that Woody saw the great failing in this method of management. If (when) he hires another cap guy, it will be proof-positive that Woody, indeed, has learned nothing.

Every single GM in the NFL relies on people under him to evaluate talent. You're only as good as the team you have on the streets. Acting like Kahn couldnt come in here and build a great scouting team because he's considered a cap guy is very short sighted when you know absolutely nothing at all about the man because the first time you ever heard his name in your entire life was 1 week ago and all you know is what some jackass is reporting to you.

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then cohen is your man

I don't know a thing about Cohen except he worked for Tanny's circus show, that being said how does everyone know Cohen wasn't the guy in the back giving face palm, after face palm, with all the stupid childish things that went on with Tanny's reign, but knew better to open his mouth because he want's to climb the corporate ladder, and one day get the chance to make those decisions instead of have to face palm someone else's decisions. Not saying this is the case, but how do we know either way?

That being said if he is just a complete Tanny copy cat loser, then he will be the Jets next GM, but if he is a diamond in the rough just waiting for his chance, then we will by pass him, and watch him take some other teams GM position in the future, and become highly regarded as one of the top GM's in the NFL, it is just the way it goes with the Jets FML!

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Every single GM in the NFL relies on people under him to evaluate talent. You're only as good as the team you have on the streets. Acting like Kahn couldnt come in here and build a great scouting team because he's considered a cap guy is very short sighted when you know absolutely nothing at all about the man because the first time you ever heard his name in your entire life was 1 week ago and all you know is what some jackass is reporting to you.

And what do we really know about Cohen or any of these other guys? Coangelo is terrible cause he led the Bears to a super bowl? That makes sense. And the damn Moneyball aspect is funny considering the Oakland A's have won how many playoff series over the years? Moneyball didn't exactly work until other teams figured out how to use it to their own advantages. For the A's, they were the typical overachievers who never amounted to anything once the playoffs started.

Wow, thats a model the Jets should follow.

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Every single GM in the NFL relies on people under him to evaluate talent. You're only as good as the team you have on the streets. Acting like Kahn couldnt come in here and build a great scouting team because he's considered a cap guy is very short sighted when you know absolutely nothing at all about the man because the first time you ever heard his name in your entire life was 1 week ago and all you know is what some jackass is reporting to you.

Of course they do, and nobody is saying the GM needs to do all of the scouting all by themselves. But in the end, it's up to the GM to be making the final decision on all personnel matters, which means evaluating all aspects of the decision, starting with talent evaluation and weighing it amongst many other factors. The GM needs to be able to do that himself, as a pro scout could give less of a sh*t about the salary cap implications, or a college scout about your current roster makeup, because that's not their jobs. So if a GM needs to weigh all of these factors, it stands to reason that they need a solid understanding of all of these areas to make an informed decision, and can't be blindly counting on their scouting department to figure it out for them. In the end, the one thing we all can look at is these guys' backgrounds and for someone like Khan there's nothing there to suggest he'll be able to provide much of his own insight when it comes to talent evaluation, which ultimately brings into question how capable that will make him of weighing that, which is ultimately the most important factor, against the other areas that he does have experience in.

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Of course they do, and nobody is saying the GM needs to do all of the scouting all by themselves. But in the end, it's up to the GM to be making the final decision on all personnel matters, which means evaluating all aspects of the decision, starting with talent evaluation and weighing it amongst many other factors. The GM needs to be able to do that himself, as a pro scout could give less of a sh*t about the salary cap implications, or a college scout about your current roster makeup, because that's not their jobs. So if a GM needs to weigh all of these factors, it stands to reason that they need a solid understanding of all of these areas to make an informed decision, and can't be blindly counting on their scouting department to figure it out for them. In the end, the one thing we all can look at is these guys' backgrounds and for someone like Khan there's nothing there to suggest he'll be able to provide much of his own insight when it comes to talent evaluation, which ultimately brings into question how capable that will make him of weighing that, which is ultimately the most important factor, against the other areas that he does have experience in.

Khan could be great or he could be horrible. He's young, but he's also been more of a accountant. Plus teams that really value certain young individuals probably try to keep them around. If somebody is as good as everybody claims, nobody would want to let that person go. If a GM knows a couple of assistants and scouts are the real reason they are so great, you probably try and keep those people close. You give them a raise. You convince them to stick around. You question their desire to go to another organization. You tell them the other organization is not run well.. Etc etc etc. And The Steelers are an organization that tends to keep people around for life.

It's like any other job and corporation. We know little about what these individuals really did and press releases and blurbs are press releases and BS. If you've worked in any capacity in the real world, most of the blurbs are full of crap. I imagine some other assistant in Pittsburgh or Seattle are looking at what's written and rolling their eyes. Some of it's probably true. Some of it is fabricated embellishments. Nobody would have a press release or blurb that states, "So and so sat in the back and spent more time watching youtube than scouting players."

In the end, I think I'm more worried that Khan seems to be a guy the Steelers could care less about holding onto.

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Of course they do, and nobody is saying the GM needs to do all of the scouting all by themselves. But in the end, it's up to the GM to be making the final decision on all personnel matters, which means evaluating all aspects of the decision, starting with talent evaluation and weighing it amongst many other factors. The GM needs to be able to do that himself, as a pro scout could give less of a sh*t about the salary cap implications, or a college scout about your current roster makeup, because that's not their jobs. So if a GM needs to weigh all of these factors, it stands to reason that they need a solid understanding of all of these areas to make an informed decision, and can't be blindly counting on their scouting department to figure it out for them. In the end, the one thing we all can look at is these guys' backgrounds and for someone like Khan there's nothing there to suggest he'll be able to provide much of his own insight when it comes to talent evaluation, which ultimately brings into question how capable that will make him of weighing that, which is ultimately the most important factor, against the other areas that he does have experience in.

What about the success of the Steelers organization in finding talent? Does him being surrounded by that scouting team and those that make the final decision have any impact on his ability to do so if in the GM role?

I guess my point is, at the end of the day, every single GM they are interviewing has never had the final say in anything and you're putting "blind faith" that they can. Whether they come from a cap background or a player related background is irrelevant. None of them have ever had the final say, none of them were solely responsible for player evaluating or cap structure. They all had help. They all will have help and guessing how they'll be in the GM role based on what they did previously when you really know nothing more than that is kind of pointless and I dont see why anyone is getting worked up over it.

Bradway came from the personnel dept in KC. How did that work out?

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I just said blue collar guys could do it too. That being said, I think white collar guys are more likely to have success. In reality, it doesn't matter what color your collar is as long as you know what you're doing. The GM should listen to his talent evaluators and stat guys and focus on getting undervalued assets. All successful GMs do that. Having followed the MLB for a long time, I think white collar guys are more likely to do that, but if an establishment guy like Belichick or Newsome can do it too, then that's even better.

FWIW, Billy Beane may have pioneered Moneyball, but Sandy Alderson actually laid the groundwork for it. Guess where he is now :)

Yankees (multiple) and Cardinals (Rickey) were numbers organizations 50 years before it was a pop culture phenomenon.

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What about the success of the Steelers organization in finding talent? Does him being surrounded by that scouting team and those that make the final decision have any impact on his ability to do so if in the GM role?

I guess my point is, at the end of the day, every single GM they are interviewing has never had the final say in anything and you're putting "blind faith" that they can. Whether they come from a cap background or a player related background is irrelevant. None of them have ever had the final say, none of them were solely responsible for player evaluating or cap structure. They all had help. They all will have help and guessing how they'll be in the GM role based on what they did previously when you really know nothing more than that is kind of pointless and I dont see why anyone is getting worked up over it.

Bradway came from the personnel dept in KC. How did that work out?

I get what you're saying and obviously none of these guys are guaranteed to be anything one way or the other. My point simply is that by looking at their resumes, which is the one thing we all have to judge them based on, there are certain ones who seem as though they would likely bring a skill set more in line with what the Jets appear to need. It's not that Khan absolutely cannot be a good GM no matter what, it's just that I don't particularly like what I've seen of his experience as a fit with the Jets and due to that, would not be in love with the hire. Idzik, on the other hand, is someone I would be a bit more comfortable with as a potential hire (again, based on his resume) given his more varied experience. That of course doesn't make me right about which would be better, but it's certainly not without reason that I have the thoughts that I do.

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Yankees (multiple) and Cardinals (Rickey) were numbers organizations 50 years before it was a pop culture phenomenon.

They may have used numbers, but they didn't use the true power of statistical inference. That only came around once sabermetrics got into the game.

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I get what you're saying and obviously none of these guys are guaranteed to be anything one way or the other. My point simply is that by looking at their resumes, which is the one thing we all have to judge them based on, there are certain ones who seem as though they would likely bring a skill set more in line with what the Jets appear to need. It's not that Khan absolutely cannot be a good GM no matter what, it's just that I don't particularly like what I've seen of his experience as a fit with the Jets and due to that, would not be in love with the hire. Idzik, on the other hand, is someone I would be a bit more comfortable with as a potential hire (again, based on his resume) given his more varied experience. That of course doesn't make me right about which would be better, but it's certainly not without reason that I have the thoughts that I do.

Fair enough...you guys were just making it seem like hiring Kahn would be the worst of all the moves and I just dont see how we could possibly know enough to make that determination. I get his resume doesnt say "personnel" but again, so what? Bradway's did.

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I think a lot of NFL teams are victims of poorly defined command structures. The HC, GM, and owner should have clearly defined roles (preferably with the owner having as little say over football decisions as possible). No one should be asking whether something was a Rex move or a Tanny move or a Woody move.

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Fair enough...you guys were just making it seem like hiring Kahn would be the worst of all the moves and I just dont see how we could possibly know enough to make that determination. I get his resume doesnt say "personnel" but again, so what? Bradway's did.

Fair point, Bradway was a scout for the Giants, had worked in the Chiefs personnel office for almost a decade....

None of us really know if any of these guys are gonna be good.

I like Idzik but that's mainly because I like the way the Seahawks have turned things around so quickly. The extent to which he played a role in that is a matter of conjecture.

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They may have used numbers, but they didn't use the true power of statistical inference. That only came around once sabermetrics got into the game.

Sabermetrics were always in the game, it's just a fancier word for "baseball numbers/statistics." Hard to imagine using the numbers without have any clue as to why they are valuable.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/01/sports/baseball/01score.html

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Fair point, Bradway was a scout for the Giants, had worked in the Chiefs personnel office for almost a decade....

None of us really know if any of these guys are gonna be good.

I like Idzik but that's mainly because I like the way the Seahawks have turned things around so quickly. The extent to which he played a role in that is a matter of conjecture.

This is a link from Seattle's webpage.

http://www.seahawks.com/team/staff/John-Idzik/f304b1c8-4fdb-49a7-b810-c4b074b07c45

Sounds like he was more of an operations guy too...though staying close to player evals, whatever that means. The one thing I do like about him is that he was the son of a coach, so you'd hope something would rub off on him. But its not because of anything great Seattle has done. This is their first winning season since Holmgren and I think it has to do with finding a QB more than anything else.

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Sabermetrics were always in the game, it's just a fancier word for "baseball numbers/statistics." Hard to imagine using the numbers without have any clue as to why they are valuable.

http://www.nytimes.c...ll/01score.html

That's really rudimentary stuff. OBP and ISO and BB% are still useful, but we've moved way beyond that. I wouldn't call it sabermetrics, but I would call it a step in that direction.

Also, OPS is garbage. There might be some excuse for using it if it actually came into prevalence in Rickey's time, but by the time people starting actually using OPS on a widespread basis, statisticians already knew that it was extremely flawed and had developed better metrics such as wOBA and wRC.

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This is a link from Seattle's webpage.

http://www.seahawks....10-c4b074b07c45

Sounds like he was more of an operations guy too...though staying close to player evals, whatever that means. The one thing I do like about him is that he was the son of a coach, so you'd hope something would rub off on him. But its not because of anything great Seattle has done. This is their first winning season since Holmgren and I think it has to do with finding a QB more than anything else.

They've been building a damn good defense through the draft for the last several years as well.

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I like the idea of hiring someone from an org (like the Steelers) that has had a long string of success, rather than the org that is "so hot right now" like the Seahawks or something. Even if Khan isn't a personnel guy, don't you think he'll be smart enough to surround himself with people who ARE so he can play to his strengths?

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That's really rudimentary stuff. OBP and ISO and BB% are still useful, but we've moved way beyond that. I wouldn't call it sabermetrics, but I would call it a step in that direction.

Also, OPS is garbage. There might be some excuse for using it if it actually came into prevalence in Rickey's time, but by the time people starting actually using OPS on a widespread basis, statisticians already knew that it was extremely flawed and had developed better metrics such as wOBA and wRC.

The point is that the foundations were laid in the first half of the 20th century or very slightly after that at most. Sabermetrics did not just pop out of nowhere when Billy Beane wrote his book (I know). Not to mention those first three stats aren't rudimentary, just older.

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