Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 WR's make a difference. But they don't make a bad QB suddenly look good. A QB can look terrible AND have few receiving options. They aren't mutually exclusive possibilities. We've been through the weapons stuff countless times the last 6 years with both Sanchez AND Geno. Josh McCown got a Job in Tampa Bay last year because of what Alshon Jeffery and Brandon Marshall did the year prior. BAM! lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Josh McCown got a Job in Tampa Bay last year because of what Alshon Jeffery and Brandon Marshall did the year prior. BAM! lol. So did Josh McCown suddenly become a good QB? Or did they just hide his flaws effectively? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastmover Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 The stats aren't misrepresented, and typically QB's don't need tons of time to throw a short pass. How does what you say above suggest that we "finally" have a good offensive line? Also, the wr's definitely need more then 2.6 seconds to run 20 yards or more. So yes the Qb needs more time to get a deep pass off. Common sense applies here. If a wr runs a 4.30, 40 meter, and a meter is slightly larger then a yard, then it will take at least 2.3 seconds for him to cover 20 yards, considering he wasn't jammed and that he's running a straight line, cuts and breaks and most routes cover more yardage then 20 yards point a to point b. So there goes your point about how much time a Qb needs for a deep pass of 20 yards or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdxgreen Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Really.... We're arguing the arm strength of the backup QB who just switched to solid foods a couple of weeks ago? What's next, a hot debate on the impact Zack Sudfield's catching ability will have when he gets off the IR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 So did Josh McCown suddenly become a good QB? Or did they just hide his flaws effectively? Of course not. He's been a poor QB for almost a decade just like Fitzpatrick. Its not like McCown was a 3rd year player or something with possible growth However, its funny what happens when you have talent around you, great WR's start making below average QB's look good. Atleast good enough to fool a Tampa team that has their answer already on their team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Of course not. He's been a poor QB for almost a decade just like Fitzpatrick. Its not like McCown was a 3rd year player or something with possible growth Fitzpatrick has been an average QB for about 5 years. Geno has been a terrible QB for 2, and if he improves, it'll almost entirely be because he gets better at his job, not because he'll be working with Decker and Marshall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Fitzpatrick has been an average QB for about 5 years. Geno has been a terrible QB for 2, and if he improves, it'll almost entirely be because he gets better at his job, not because he'll be working with Decker and Marshall. Then this should have been said 6 pages ago instead of looking at stats that dont tell the whole story and making it seem like the kid simply doesnt have a chance in hell to get better at his job, especially when he has better talent around him. And yea, Fitz was average for about 5 years when you take everything into account but he has a 10 year career that I can look at and having almost 5 times the amount of time on record compared to Geno and to see that he doesnt beat good teams and he can only get you 6 wins a season, I simply dont know what the problem is talking up a younger kid who's already recorded an 8 win season, something Fitz has never done, who is naturally more gifted physically and could be molded by the discipline that we seem to have here with Bowles and an OC who is known for getting everything out of his QB. Instead people just want to pull Geno stats all day yet not pull up any on Fitzpatrick's 10 years because they know what that sh*t will show and it will kill the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Then this should have been said 6 pages ago instead of looking at stats that dont tell the whole story and making it seem like the kid simply doesnt have a chance in hell to get better at his job, especially when he has better talent around him. And yea, Fitz was average for about 5 years when you take everything into account but he has a 10 year career that I can look at and having almost 5 times the amount of time on record compared to Geno and to see that he doesnt beat good teams and he can only get you 6 wins a season, I simply dont know what the problem is talking up a younger kid who's already recorded an 8 win season, something Fitz has never done, who is naturally more gifted physically and could be molded by the discipline that we seem to have here with Bowles and an OC who is known for getting everything out of his QB. Instead people just want to pull Geno stats all day yet not pull up any on Fitzpatrick's 10 years because they know what that sh*t will show and it will kill the argument. We're 2-1. We don't have the time to watch Geno go from terrible to maybe OK. We already have the QB that is "OK". As I've stated before, if we fall apart, I'm cool with Geno playing then. Not in the middle of a potential playoff hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 We're 2-1. We don't have the time to watch Geno go from terrible to m1aybe OK. We already have the QB that is "OK". As I've stated before, if we fall apart, I'm cool with Geno playing then. Not in the middle of a potential playoff hunt. We're 2-1 with a guy who would have been our back up QB because he didnt outperform Geno Smith over the summer. So It sounds to me that Geno could be a bit more than "OK" and not as terrible as you continue to want to paint him. But like you said earlier, "it seems like people were waiting for Fitz to have a bad game", from the looks of it if Geno were to ever get in there you'd be that exact guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 We're 2-1 with a guy who would have been our back up QB because he didnt outperform Geno Smith over the summer. So It sounds to me that Geno could be a bit more than "OK" and not as terrible as you continue to want to paint him. 2 seasons of evidence that Geno is terrible is enough for me to say he's probably still terrible. We're 2-1 with Fitz. That's what we know. So we'll be sticking with Fitz at least for one more week. If he plays well and wins we'll be 3-1, and will get to avoid all this useless Geno talk for 2 weeks. That'll be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-Rex Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Obviously, the pro Geno guys will retort with the old 'HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS BRO!!!!111'. I am not one of those and I have seen Geno leave plays on the field that could have been made and I don't care WHO the WR is. Geno is terrible at the deep sideline throw, almost always throwing too far beyond the boundary for the WR to make a play. Down the middle he may be near 50 percent but that is no great shakes either. He has a big arm but accuracy is the name of the game in the NFL, and Geno has shown that is lacking in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 2 seasons of evidence that Geno is terrible is enough for me to say he's probably still terrible. We're 2-1 with Fitz. That's what we know. So we'll be sticking with Fitz at least for one more week. If he plays well and wins we'll be 3-1, and will get to avoid all this useless Geno talk for 2 weeks. That'll be nice. I havent seen 2 years of evidence under Bowles/Gailey with this offense and defense and neither have you. Maybe you should stop with that, because you continuously leave out the 9 prior seasons of terrible to below average to average to below average again work Fitz has put in. the difference is 1 guy has had the experience though 9 seasons with 6 different teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I havent seen 2 years of evidence under Bowles/Gailey with this offense and defense and neither have you. Maybe you should stop with that, because you continuously leave out the 9 prior seasons terrible to below average to average to below average again work Fitz has put in. the difference is 1 guy has had the experience though 9 seasons with 6 different teams. In order for the OC and receivers to matter, the QB has to be competent. Geno is not. No system or receiving corps will save him. He needs to mature and get better. I'd prefer that reclamation project not to have to take place this season, because that means we'll be out of the playoff hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Obviously, the pro Geno guys will retort with the old 'HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY WEAPONS BRO!!!!111'. I am not one of those and I have seen Geno leave plays on the field that could have been made and I don't care WHO the WR is. Geno is terrible at the deep sideline throw, almost always throwing too far beyond the boundary for the WR to make a play. Down the middle he may be near 50 percent but that is no great shakes either. He has a big arm but accuracy is the name of the game in the NFL, and Geno has shown that is lacking in him. If Decker and Marshall get hurt for the season then sure. As for Geno's deep throws, I remember when Geno was leading the league in completions over 20 yards. I havent heard that stat brought about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 In order for the OC and receivers to matter, the QB has to be competent. Geno is not. No system or receiving corps will save him. He needs to mature and get better. I'd prefer that reclamation project not to have to take place this season, because that means we'll be out of the playoff hunt. In order for the QB to have a competent scheme he has to have a competent OC. They work together bro. Whenever you want to stop acting like this isnt a team game on all levels then that will be the time when you progress with this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Brown Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Geno in many ways reminds me in his delivery and timing on the deep ball of a young Namath regardless the numbers while Fitz reminds of a more cerebral Montana. Based on these observations we are fine at QB...... Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 In order for the QB to have a competent scheme he has to have a competent OC. They work together bro. Whenever you want to stop acting like this isnt a team game on all levels then that will be the time when you progress with this fact. A good QB can get by with a bad OC. It is impossible for a good OC to make a sh*t QB good. At the end of the day it is still the QB making the pre-snap reads, the decisions at the line, the run through the progressions, and the proper throw. The OC can't do all that for the guy. It's more about the Jimmy's and the Joe's than the X's and the O's, and its always been that way. For years we complained about the OC's when Sanchez was here. Even Chip Kelly couldn't "fix" him. It's because the common denominator is the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 In order for the OC and receivers to matter, the QB has to be competent. Geno is not. No system or receiving corps will save him. He needs to mature and get better. I'd prefer that reclamation project not to have to take place this season, because that means we'll be out of the playoff hunt. what other predictions can you make without a shred of proof since you haven't seen him this year or with these receivers? That he can't be competent like 6 TDs and 5 INTs while being unable to make most of the throws a NFL QB should make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 A good QB can get by with a bad OC. It is impossible for a good OC to make a sh*t QB good. At the end of the day it is still the QB making the pre-snap reads, the decisions at the line, the run through the progressions, and the proper throw. The OC can't do all that for the guy. It's more about the Jimmy's and the Joe's than the X's and the O's, and its always been that way. A great QB can get by with a bad OC. Stop getting good and elite mixed up. And Chan Gailey has made a career of making bad QB's good enough. Check the mans resume sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 what other predictions can you make without a shred of proof since you haven't seen him this year or with these receivers? That he can't be competent like 6 TDs and 5 INTs while being unable to make most of the throws a NFL QB should make? More TD's than INT's is a nice change from our past QB's. I'm not saying that makes Fitzpatrick good. It makes him average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 More TD's than INT's is a nice change from our past QB's. I'm not saying that makes Fitzpatrick good. It makes him average. Geno did pretty well not throwing INT's this past summer. Cant say the same about Fitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsfan80 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 A great QB can get by with a bad OC. Stop getting good and elite mixed up. And Chan Gailey has made a career of making bad QB's good enough. Check the mans resume sometime. Ryan Fitzpatrick is one of those QB's Gailey has HELPED. But Fitz still has to be competent in order to make the plays in Chan's scheme. It's fairly simple. Again, no OC can make a bad QB good. It's impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
56mehl56 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Ryan Fitzpatrick is one of those QB's Gailey has HELPED. But Fitz still has to be competent in order to make the plays in Chan's scheme. It's fairly simple. Again, no OC can make a bad QB good. It's impossible. Depends on what he's bad at. If its mental progressions etc then film study can go a long way. If its physical as in Fitz's case I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Ryan Fitzpatrick is one of those QB's Gailey has HELPED. But Fitz still has to be competent in order to make the plays in Chan's scheme. It's fairly simple. Again, no OC can make a bad QB good. It's impossible. Yeah, back in his prime. Fitz is not the same player he was 5 years ago. With that said, everything else you said afterwards (competence) is only indirect shots at Geno though you DONT KNOW what he can do in Chan's system. The only thing you do know is that Geno was producing better than Fitz in this system over the summer. We were all here for those twitter feeds. So maybe the competence is there...given that its "fairly simple". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 More TD's than INT's is a nice change from our past QB's. I'm not saying that makes Fitzpatrick good. It makes him average. He's throwing them at the rate as Geno. Other than at this rate he'll throw 27 INTs. While not being able to make most throws. But hey, beats the shlt out of even coming close to admitting you might have been wrong when you went on and on and on and on that Fitz isn't an INT machine like his history says he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Ryan Fitzpatrick is one of those QB's Gailey has HELPED. But Fitz still has to be competent in order to make the plays in Chan's scheme. It's fairly simple. Again, no OC can make a bad QB good. It's impossible. He's also the QB that Gailey didn't want starting for him here. The OC apparently thinks Geno is the better QB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 He's also the QB that Gailey didn't want starting for him here. The OC apparently thinks Geno is the better QB Probably because he knew that historically, Fitz wont win you more than 6 games. Oh im sorry, we can only state stats that make a QB look bad if that QB is Geno Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pac Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Can you imagine Pickzpatrick was throwing to David Nelson, Clyde Gates, Jason Hill, Salim Hakim, and Stephen Hill? Holy crap. Why is this so difficult to understand? My 11 year old got it right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EM31 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 what other predictions can you make without a shred of proof since you haven't seen him this year or with these receivers? That he can't be competent like 6 TDs and 5 INTs while being unable to make most of the throws a NFL QB should make? What are you talking about? We have seen him with all of these receivers except Marshall. He throws it to the other team. He does it excessively. so if he is a dogsh1t QB interception machine (and he is) all of that changes because we signed Brandon Marshall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Probably because he knew that historically, Fitz wont win you more than 6 games. Oh im sorry, we can only state stats that makes a QB look bad if that QB is Geno Smith. And we cant explain his bad play as inexperience or lack of weapons because those become excuses. Not that they make perfect sense, excuses. Not to be confused with all the reasons that were listed over and over again to explai away Fitzs bad numbers, win totals etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Can you imagine Pickzpatrick was throwing to David Nelson, Clyde Gates, Jason Hill, Salim Hakim, and Stephen Hill? Holy crap. Why is this so difficult to understand? My 11 year old got it right away. can you imagine Fitz trying to pass when the temps drop and the wind kicks up? He can't go downfield now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EM31 Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Probably because he knew that historically, Fitz wont win you more than 6 games. Oh im sorry, we can only state stats that makes a QB look bad if that QB is Geno Smith. The stats that make Smith look bad are the stats intended to capture QB performance. Not perfect by any means but certainly more to the point than team W/L record which can be bad even with a world-beater at QB. And if you don't like that then just use your own eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 And we cant explain his bad play as inexperience or lack of weapons because those become excuses. Not that they make perfect sense, excuses. Not to be confused with all the reasons that were listed over and over again to explai away Fitzs bad numbers, win totals etc. And thats if they even take the time to address Fitz numbers/win totals. Thats totally disregarded because of course he didnt do it in a "Jets jersey" so it doesnt count. All we need to know today is that we're 2-1 and there's no way in hell we'd be 2-1 with Geno lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jet Nut Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 What are you talking about? We have seen him with all of these receivers except Marshall. He throws it to the other team. He does it excessively. so if he is a dogsh1t QB interception machine (and he is) all of that changes because we signed Brandon Marshall? Really? Owusu looked great with Geno going deep. Decker was hurt. Now explain why 13-13 is a problem and 6-5 isnt? How about a question what does Fitz do that Geno can't. Thow deep? Avoid INTs? Run? Other than grow a better beard and throw INTS at a quicker rate tell us. Because his HC and OC wanted Geno behind center. No matter how many times you say Geno wasn't winning the camp battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villain The Foe Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 The stats that make Smith look bad are the stats intended to capture QB performance. I would assume, though when you disregard the fact that this player is a rookie/2nd year with no weapons to throw to in his first year and a depleted talent group his 2nd year because the GM was forced not to spend money and then proceeded to whiff on 13 total draft picks, then I begin to get the feeling that its more hatred than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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