Average QB Salary Cap Charge is 10.9 Million

[Sperm Edwards]

Just now, Warfish said:

You think they don't understand things like that?

LOL.

So lets summarize, you want us to lose out, and think NFL HEad Coaches are too dumb to know cap # from salary #, and that salary # alone forces their hands to play bad players.  Got it.

I don't think any HC looks at any player and thinks of his player's cost in terms of present-year cap value more than present-year compensation. And it is laughable you think any look at in those terms for the purpose of determining playing time. If you have any evidence that cap number specifically determines playing time I would love to see this one.

He's getting paid $12M for this season. His contract was big news. No one, except those rationalizing his playing time and presence, thinks of him as costing only $7M this year because nearly half his compensation for this one season hits next year's cap.

Suggesting Bowles thinks in the terms you outlined is not flattering to him. You inadvertently suggest he is stupidly unaware that Fitzpatrick's cap # is $7M because they specifically desired it that way, rather than the reality: that they didn't have $12M of cap space for him this year.

[varjet]

Granted that they just won a Super Bowl, but John Elway and the Broncos were not paying $12mm.  They were going to do their best with the QBs on their roster, and pay Sanchez like $5mm to be the veteran (which is probably around the right price for a mediocre at best veteran hold-the-fort QB.

My problem with all of this is that Macc completely misjudged the team-that, or the players just completely collapsed.  They felt like they needed to have Fitz to have a respectable season.  Fitz' compensation is really in its own class-he really does not have a comparable.

[Sperm Edwards]

15 minutes ago, ljr said:

What would you believe should have been a "fair" salary heading into this season?

if you are thinking anything below 10 or 11 you are not paying attention to current NFL economics 

No, it just means I don't think of him the way you do. I don't think of him as a regular starting QB, and signing him to anything other than what he is - a backup temporarily filling in - was foolish.

"Current NFL economics" suggest a QB is sometime overpaid if there is hope for improved future potential, and as a result there is serious competitive bidding for these players. Ryan Fitzpatrick is not in this group of QBs. 

$7M maximum. If he balks at it you let him go. He is putting on a clinic this year of why he isn't worth more than that.

[ljr]

2 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No, it just means I don't think of him the way you do. I don't think of him as a regular starting QB, and signing him to anything other than what he is - a backup temporarily filling in - was foolish.

"Current NFL economics" suggest a QB is sometime overpaid if there is hope for improved future potential, and as a result there is serious competitive bidding for these players. Ryan Fitzpatrick is not in this group of QBs. 

$7M maximum. If he balks at it you let him go. He is putting on a clinic this year of why he isn't worth more than that.

Agree to disagree

improved current potential over what was on our 2016 roster ... Along with "above average " 2015 play with this team, is why he was fairly able to negotiate 12 for this year ... Along with escape hatches for both the player & the FO in 2017 if play this year dictated a big swing one way or the other

[Warfish]

17 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I don't think any HC looks at any player and thinks of his player's cost in terms of present-year cap value more than present-year compensation. And it is laughable you think any look at in those terms for the purpose of determining playing time.[/quote]

I don't.  I think Head Coaches play the player they think will best help them win. 

But our resident Geno obsessives say that's the only reason Geno isn't starting, Fitz's salary and Macc's fragile ego.

Apparently, to them, and perhaps you, the Jets Org would rather lose than play the superior QB, all because of a (Lol) 7 million cap hit for a one-year player.

Of course, you think losing out is the best route to success......

 

[Sperm Edwards]

14 minutes ago, ljr said:

Agree to disagree

improved current potential over what was on our 2016 roster ... Along with "above average " 2015 play with this team, is why he was fairly able to negotiate 12 for this year ... Along with escape hatches for both the player & the FO in 2017 if play this year dictated a big swing one way or the other

Agree to disagree if you like. I think he is fine as a fill-in QB. The kind the Steelers should be happy to pick up if Ben is out for a month. He is not the kind of QB you plan an offseason around paying him like a starter. 

He had his best season last year. Take the money and run. Don't quadruple down on the supremely improbable. 

[Sperm Edwards]

16 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I don't.  I think Head Coaches play the player they think will best help them win. 

But our resident Geno obsessives say that's the only reason Geno isn't starting, Fitz's salary and Macc's fragile ego.

Apparently, to them, and perhaps you, the Jets Org would rather lose than play the superior QB, all because of a (Lol) 7 million cap hit for a one-year player.

Of course, you think losing out is the best route to success......

 

GenoGenoGenoGenoGenoGenoGenoGenoGenoGenoGeno

lol

Your answer to everything. 

[ljr]

3 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Agree to disagree if you like. I think he is fine as a fill-in QB. The kind the Steelers should be happy to pick up if Ben is out for a month. He is not the kind of QB you plan an offseason around paying him like a starter. 

He had his best season last year. Take the money and run. Don't quadruple down on the supremely improbable. 

The big question then is "Who do you put as your 2016 week 1 starting QB then?"

it's ok to have not liked Fitz for the role ... If you had a better player to put in ... The problem is there was not one

[Snell41]

How is his cap number 7 million. I am not following. He didn't have a contract, and then the Jets signed him to this: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000677227/article/ryan-fitzpatrick-jets-strike-oneyear-contract

The contract is worth $12 million, but the QB has a chance to make $3 million more based on team performance NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport reported, according to a source. The news ends a stalemate that dragged on all offseason with countless stories and little drama about how it would end.
 

So if it is one year, 12 million guaranteed, maybe more with bonuses....wouldn't that make it 12 million against the cap?


It's not one year, it's 2. I don't know the real numbers, but if it was 2 year with 9m signing bonus, Fitz gets entire signing bonus in his first year. Say 1st year salary is 3m, cap hit is the 3m plus signing bonus divided by year's of contract. 9m divided by 2, 4.5m...so 1st year cap hit is 7.5m. Conversely cutting him after a year results in 4.5m of dead money against the cap following year.


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[Sperm Edwards]

15 minutes ago, ljr said:

The big question then is "Who do you put as your 2016 week 1 starting QB then?"

it's ok to have not liked Fitz for the role ... If you had a better player to put in ... The problem is there was not one

There were. We just didn't add them. 

The only 2 paths to a starting QB aren't picking up a glorified backup and letting all draftees sit for 2-3 seasons. 

Just ask Denver, Dallas, Philadelphia, Minnesota. A season is not a lost opportunity because of the absence of Ryan Fitzpatrick. 

Regardless, it was foolishness to believe Fitzpatrick would make this team a serious Super Bowl contender without 2015's perfect storm of easy opponents. This was an opportunity to play a young QB. Apparently it's ok for the Broncos to go into the season with 2 QBs no more qualified or experienced than Bryce Petty but not the Jets. He'll, they even cut the one veteran insurance they had (with playoff experience and at 1/3 Fitzpatrick's cost). They got a whiff of what Fitz wanted and laughed it off as ridiculous, just as we should have. 

BTW, you play the "agree to disagree" game about as well as I do lol . 

[UnitedWhofans]

But then to count the full 12m, one needs to take into account that the average has to include next year since Fitz's cap goes into next year. 

The stat in the title of this thread means nothing without next year's data

[ljr]

6 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

There were. We just didn't add them. 

The only 2 paths to a starting QB aren't picking up a glorified backup and letting all draftees sit for 2-3 seasons. 

Just ask Denver, Dallas, Philadelphia, Minnesota. A season is not a lost opportunity because of the absence of Ryan Fitzpatrick. 

Regardless, it was foolishness to believe Fitzpatrick would make this team a serious Super Bowl contender without 2015's perfect storm of easy opponents. This was an opportunity to play a young QB. Apparently it's ok for the Broncos to go into the season with 2 QBs no more qualified or experienced than Bryce Petty but not the Jets. He'll, they even cut the one veteran insurance they had (with playoff experience and at 1/3 Fitzpatrick's cost). They got a whiff of what Fitz wanted and laughed it off as ridiculous, just as we should have. 

BTW, you play the "agree to disagree" game about as well as I do lol . 

Lol ... Well , "agree to disagree" is meant as an olive branch which hopefully can be left peacefully sitting on the path ... When it gets nudged, or kicked, or stepped on ... It then becomes hard to not feel bad for & try to help that poor defenseless little branch just sitting there!

 

Our FO had an option of taking a risk in 2016 and tossing one of the kids out as starter ... Or playing it safe with the rookies and kid glove treating them until next season ... We went safe.

Denver rolled the dice, ... After they got egg on their face with the Osweiller negotiation ... Simien (sp?) seems like he's working out for them ... Lynch looked pretty shaky

I don't remember exactly when Petty got hurt in the TC/preseason timeframe but early enough to remove him from week 1 consideration, even if that is where the FO was leaning 

soooooo

long story short ... With Petty being injured , & all the positive results for the team's you mentioned going with youngsters not having anything to do with our team (incidentally there are several teams who also had bad play with the young QB's they took a chance on) ,  there still wasn't the name of a legit kid the NY Jets could have been rolling the dice with week 1

[Sperm Edwards]

16 minutes ago, ljr said:

Lol ... Well , "agree to disagree" is meant as an olive branch which hopefully can be left peacefully sitting on the path ... When it gets nudged, or kicked, or stepped on ... It then becomes hard to not feel bad for & try to help that poor defenseless little branch just sitting there!

 

Our FO had an option of taking a risk in 2016 and tossing one of the kids out as starter ... Or playing it safe with the rookies and kid glove treating them until next season ... We went safe.

Denver rolled the dice, ... After they got egg on their face with the Osweiller negotiation ... Simien (sp?) seems like he's working out for them ... Lynch looked pretty shaky

I don't remember exactly when Petty got hurt in the TC/preseason timeframe but early enough to remove him from week 1 consideration, even if that is where the FO was leaning 

soooooo

long story short ... With Petty being injured , & all the positive results for the team's you mentioned going with youngsters not having anything to do with our team (incidentally there are several teams who also had bad play with the young QB's they took a chance on) ,  there still wasn't the name of a legit kid the NY Jets could have been rolling the dice with week 1

Petty was injured as a direct result of this GM/HC placing two QBs ahead of him. One of which, I might add, that the HC refuses to insert into a football game no matter what, leading all to wonder why he is even on the roster in the first place. What makes it even more maddening is they liked Petty enough to keep his roster spot - meaning they felt he was good enough to see the field this year - but wasn't good enough to use as 2nd string? That's a hard sell.

Denver didn't have egg on their face with Osweiller. What they did - what we should have done - was say this is how much this QB is worth and no more than that. If someone outbids, you let it happen. Maccagnan has had no problem letting that happen with multiple players, but caved for Fitzpatrick. Lynch was expected to be inserted only in case of injury. But the underlying reason, which we ignored, is that whether banking on Osweiller at $18M with 2 years guaranteed, or Sanchez at $3.5M for just this year, neither was going to get them where they wanted to be. They gave Sanchez a chance, saw that he just doesn't read secondaries (and can't stop double-pumping to his desired receiver, like a nervous tick) and just cut him.

They had a better team than we had, with a better chance at making post-season noise, and could have signed Fitzpatrick themselves. What they realized is it is pointless. It's a dopey PR move to shield the GM from all the Fitzbots screaming about all the games we would have won if we'd brought him back. 

Any teams that didn't have a young QB pan out still got something out of it: they got a more definitive answer as to what that youngster was and wasn't. They didn't waste time and delay his on-field introduction to trot Ryan Fitzpatrick out there again. His Buffalo meltdown was the perfect excuse to move on.

[Jetsfan80]

10 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I don't know, the sample size isn't that large here and at face value the curve seems like a pretty normal distribution. In statistics we generally use medians over means when the kurtosis values are skewed and/or with large-N analyses. That doesn't look to be the case here.

Yeah I was expecting more "outliers" in this mix.

[Jetsfan80]

So let me get this straight:  I outlined how the median starting QB makes about $16M, the mean starting QB makes over $14M, and yet Fitz, even at $12M, is a horrible deal.  Okay.

Yeah, this has officially gotten ridiculous.  We have plenty to cry about this season, including about Fitz.  This isn't one of them.  Bryce Petty isn't fixing our defense.  Geno Smith isn't fixing Todd Bowles.  Ryan Fitzpatrick will never be anything other than what he is.  No one is going to make Hackenberg a franchise QB.  And no one can fire Woody Johnson.  Those are real problems. 

[BroadwayJoe12]

13 hours ago, RutgersJetFan said:

I don't know, the sample size isn't that large here and at face value the curve seems like a pretty normal distribution. In statistics we generally use medians over means when the kurtosis values are skewed and/or with large-N analyses. That doesn't look to be the case here.

Sounds an awful lot like witchcraft-speak.  Consider yourself on notice. 

[FidelioJet]

For me the *** issue isn't that he's overpaid (and he is) it's that Mac bid against himself to sign him.

No one wanted the guy. We could have simply said take $6mm or retire.


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[UnitedWhofans]

5 minutes ago, FidelioJet said:

For me the *** issue isn't that he's overpaid (and he is) it's that Mac bid against himself to sign him.

No one wanted the guy. We could have simply said take $6mm or retire.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

And have Geno Smith start and have the media and fanbase putting him on a pillory.

You might not like it but it is true, the media and fanbase do impact the FO.

[Integrity28]

14 hours ago, Maxman said:

It was just on Sunday night football. So I think that means that Fitz is above average. When it comes to the salary cap anyhow. At least there is that.

Or, it means they paid Fitz $1.1mil to go away after this year.

[RutgersJetFan]

12 hours ago, j4jets said:

No it's not. And he's doesn't deserve an average deal, not even when he signed it. Don't compare him to franchise QBs or young QBs with a ton of potential. He's an old garbage that deserves to remain on the bench. 

For what it's worth my wife and I are naming our first born Leptokurtic. 

[FidelioJet]

31 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

And have Geno Smith start and have the media and fanbase putting him on a pillory.

You might not like it but it is true, the media and fanbase do impact the FO.

And there in lies the ultimate problem - this franchise sucks and will continue to suck unless that changes.

The Jets aren't unlucky - they are simply a poorly run franchise and it starts with the owner.

[Sperm Edwards]

55 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

For what it's worth my wife and I are naming our first born Leptokurtic. 

Don't propose naming your child Sperm, Jr. no matter how apropos it seems. Not going to get into how I know it won't go over well, but just take this advice.

[j4jets]

56 minutes ago, RutgersJetFan said:

For what it's worth my wife and I are naming our first born Leptokurtic. 

This is Mr. Lepto. 

[Villain The Foe]

7 hours ago, Warfish said:

Whats funny is people think an NFL Head Coach wouldn't bench a 7 million cap number QB doing horribly, because of the money.

No HC is letting himself lose out and get fired over 7 million.

 

Maybe that HC is getting through this tough stretch of games to see if his starter can rebound, if he can then it would be good to start off his alternative with lesser talent teams if you will in order to get their feet wet and to have some games (and possible wins) under their belt heading into those games against the Pats for example. 

Trying to make it sound like there's some lack of trust in his other QB's is just reaching. If he's going to make a change then #1 he wants to make sure that everyone is in agreement that Fitz lost the job and #2 give the replacement the best chance to succeed by doing what he can to establish a good start and confidence with the overall starting offense. 

I strongly think that it has nothing to do with what you're trying to suggest. 

[Jet Nut]

15 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Oh for pete's sake.  Only players care about the guaranteed money, and they only care about the TOTAL.  Listing this as a reason to claim he was overpaid is silly.  All that matters for the organization's purposes, and for the interests of the fans, is cap charge, and $12M spread out over 2 is cheap for a starting QB.  

We have plenty of threads complaining about Fitz's performance, and rightly so.  This is probably the least useful one to do so in.  No offense to Max. 

He gets 12 mil for this year.  Dont care how they spread it out, how they structured it, he signed a contract for 12 mil to play this season.  Not 7 mil, the list is misleading.  Actually his salary this season is 2 mil and he received a 10 mil signing bonus that was spread out over 2 seasons.  Thats the 5 mil in dead money he will receive when his contracts voids after the SB.  Its essentially a 1 year contract because it automatically voids even if hes on the roster.  Nobody has to do anything, his second year is gone.

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Villain The Foe said:

Trying to make it sound like there's some lack of trust in his other QB's is just reaching.

Not "his other QB's".  

Geno.

There is an obvious demonstrable lack of trust in Geno Smith.

If there was trust there, he'd have been our starter and Fitz would be unemployed right now.

Really makes you think...

[Smashmouth]

17 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

^^^  As I bolded above, the median falls between Rivers ($16.5M) and Kaepernick ($15.9M). 

So yeah, this argument is pretty dumb.  Even if you want to say that Fitz is costing us $12M, He's still making a good bit less than the cap figure of the median starting QB in the league.  Including backups and creating a "mean QB salary" figure is stupid, because there's a huge dropoff in salary when you drop from a starting QB to a backup.  Oh, and when you take the mean of the 32 QB's above, it comes out to a little above $14M.

And lol that Brady is costing under $14M against the cap in '16.  They're probably matching that cap figure under the table. 

 

Source for table above:  http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/2016/

The main problem is people are still looking for reasons to blame this whole abortion of a season on one guy, the QB, and its ridiculous. The entire team is playing bad and the coaching staff is not adjusting to anything, so in that case this is a total fail on so many levels. IF (and this is a big if) Bowles is able to re-scheme this defense to fit it current personnel and they begin to play up to the level most of us and everyone else expected that's even more reason to fire his ass since he was stupid enough to let this team flounder for 5 games and put us in a huge hole.

Keep in mind when it comes to Gailey and the Jets offense it was the first time in about 14 years we actually looked good on offense and we were good, not world beaters. We got so used to sucking it may have made Gailey look a bit better than he actually was. This team should be averaging points in the mid 20's at the very least with all the skill players we have on offense. Instead we have a Game managing QB slinging the ball around like Brett Favre and that's stupid coaching as well.

You take any of the top coaching staffs in this league and put them in this Jets situation and this record is probably reversed. In the case of Fitz if this gun slinging crap is solely on him and he's actually playing this recklessly by his own doing, then his ass should have been reeled in and if that didn't work shown the bench. I happen to blame the coaching staff more than any of the players because this team Improved in a lot of areas this offseason especially in the speed department and they just did not get coached up.

[jason423]

18 hours ago, Maxman said:

@jason423 can you shed some light on this for us?

The Jets didnt have the cap space to fit a $12M charge without redoing other deals. So they did the funny money void year trick in which they technically sign a two year contract to allow the $10M signing bonus to prorate over two seasons.  To void the second season all Fitzpatrick has to do is be on the roster in February and the contract yer for 2017 vanishes leaving the jets with $5M in dead money.

His $12M contract is the lowest salary for a veteran starter who was penciled in to start upon signing, but is more than all the rookie contract or Brian Hoyer types

[jason423]

I think most people in Florham Park would also agree that Fitz is overpaid. They were stuck and more or less caved in at the last minute when they looked at the alternatives.  It was pretty clear Fitzpatrick has no market when teams like the Browns and Broncos showed zero interest in him. The Jets viewed him all along as a $7M QB but were willing to guarantee him close to two years at that salary, which would have been top level backup money.  He was unwilling to do that so they met somewhere in the middle and did the one year deal. 

This is an area where it would be nice if the Jets got a better identity. That goes for a lot of other teams too but it wasnt a good offseason for the Jets in terms of where they ended up with this deal and Mo's deal.  You look at the Broncos and thats a hardline front office. Its a total departure from the Jets one. They set that tone years ago with the Dumervil deal and Tebow trade. It showed again this year when they went nowhere with Osweiler and refused to budge on more than $7Mish a year for Colin Kaepernick. They were willing to go with Mark Sanchez or a low level QB rather than overspend on the position.  

I get why the Jets did it but if you are willing to do the deal do it early. It avoids all the distractions of the offseason and doesnt make you look like you caved at the last second on a contract.

[Maxman]

1 hour ago, jason423 said:

The Jets didnt have the cap space to fit a $12M charge without redoing other deals. So they did the funny money void year trick in which they technically sign a two year contract to allow the $10M signing bonus to prorate over two seasons.  To void the second season all Fitzpatrick has to do is be on the roster in February and the contract yer for 2017 vanishes leaving the jets with $5M in dead money.

His $12M contract is the lowest salary for a veteran starter who was penciled in to start upon signing, but is more than all the rookie contract or Brian Hoyer types

Thank you! So I understand now, and that is what 80 was explaining to me. I didn't realize that, which sucks. 5 million against the cap next year and Fitz will be on another team, at home, or a backup here. In which case we have to pay him a backup salary as well.

They definitely caved. Sad.

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

The main problem is people are still looking for reasons to blame this whole abortion of a season on one guy, the QB, and its ridiculous. The entire team is playing bad and the coaching staff is not adjusting to anything, so in that case this is a total fail on so many levels. IF (and this is a big if) Bowles is able to re-scheme this defense to fit it current personnel and they begin to play up to the level most of us and everyone else expected that's even more reason to fire his ass since he was stupid enough to let this team flounder for 5 games and put us in a huge hole.

Keep in mind when it comes to Gailey and the Jets offense it was the first time in about 14 years we actually looked good on offense and we were good, not world beaters. We got so used to sucking it may have made Gailey look a bit better than he actually was. This team should be averaging points in the mid 20's at the very least with all the skill players we have on offense. Instead we have a Game managing QB slinging the ball around like Brett Favre and that's stupid coaching as well.

You take any of the top coaching staffs in this league and put them in this Jets situation and this record is probably reversed. In the case of Fitz if this gun slinging crap is solely on him and he's actually playing this recklessly by his own doing, then his ass should have been reeled in and if that didn't work shown the bench. I happen to blame the coaching staff more than any of the players because this team Improved in a lot of areas this offseason especially in the speed department and they just did not get coached up.

A whole lot of clouding the issue.  

What is going on is there's a large contingent of fans who screamed loud and long all off season for their conquering hero.  Even rubbed it in when he returned and was handed the job.  Told anyone who disagreed howmlittle they knew about the game.  Now it's all blown up and the team has gone down with Fitz.  It starts with Fitz and ends with Fitz.  With out an iota of doubt he's the biggest reason we're 1-4 and that contingent that begged for Fitz are falling over themselves and excusesmto lessen the blame on their guy.

 

 

[Villain The Foe]

13 hours ago, Warfish said:

Not "his other QB's".  

Geno.

There is an obvious demonstrable lack of trust in Geno Smith.

If there was trust there, he'd have been our starter and Fitz would be unemployed right now.

Really makes you think...

I'm out in Iceland now so I missed the game, just got up. I go look at the highlights and a funny thing happened with our qb position.