Warren Moon: QB play shows NFL needs a developmental league

[Mike135]

Absolutely.  We currently have two young QBs who we're scared to start because they're not ready.  Geno has spent years trying to become a better QB.  And Fitz still sucks balls after 12 years!

College ball is a joke with their gimmick offenses and can't be relied upon to produce quality QBs.  Then to make matters worse, the CBA prevents practice time that would allow teams to develop young QBs themselves.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/11/03/warren-moon-qb-play-shows-nfl-needs-a-developmental-league/

Warren Moon: QB play shows NFL needs a developmental league

Posted by Michael David Smith on November 3, 2016, 11:36 AM EDT

Getty Images

Hall of Fame quarterback Warren Moon thinks he knows why NFL ratings are down, and what can be done to turn things around.

Moon told USA Today that quarterbacks aren’t good enough to produce the kind of entertaining offensive football that fans enjoy.

“If this is going to be a quarterback-driven league, the quarterback has to be coached better,” Moon said. “There’s a lot of bad quarterbacking out there.”

Moon proposes that the NFL start a developmental league with a specific goal in mind of giving good coaching to promising young quarterbacks.

“The NFL needs a farm system, like it used to have with NFL Europe,” Moon said. “It gives them those reps. Think about guys like Kurt Warner, Jon Kitna and Brad Johnson, who all played overseas and benefitted from the experience.”

The problem with a developmental league is that it would cost the NFL’s owners a lot of money to get it started. That’s why owners have so far been lukewarm to the idea. Moon, however, thinks a developmental league would be a wise investment.

[Snell41]

He's right.  Now, are you going to draft a QB early, pay him 1st round money, and send him to a development camp?  The quandary is the amount of pay these kids make, and the fact the options the kids are playing behind are not good either.  Now sure, if you want to start and pay for a league that few people will watch, as has been historically shown time and again, and take a loss on it, be my guest. 

To me the answer is within the Collective bargaining agreement.  There needs to be a designated number of players who are allowed to practice with the team year round.  Players that are developmental at all positions.  Each team should be designated at least 22.  Enough to give them real reps of practice year long.  Teams can designate "offers" to the players they feel would benefit most, and players would give consent that they bypass the standard CB agreement on player practice time.  This allows developmental QB's and other positions to be able to continue to work with the team coaches year round. 

 

[The Crusher]

The owners real fear should be it would be more entertaining than the NFL is currently. 

[JoJoTownsell1]

He is 100pct correct.  With no minor league system and new rules that limit practice time, the NFL product is suffering. The NFL need a minor league system badly. 

[Beerfish]

They should simply make an agreement with the CFL for loaning players.  An already established league and though the rules are different players still benefit from the playing time.  A reasonable number of CFL players go back to the NFL each year at least to get to camps.  Some of them make it full time in the NFL and some are even high end players.

Existing league that has survived long term whom you already have a pretty good relationship, cooperative on the costs thus keeping them low. 

[Snell41]

1 minute ago, JoJoTownsell1 said:

He is 100pct correct.  With no minor league system and new rules that limit practice time, the NFL product is suffering. The NFL need a minor league system badly. 

A minor league system would take an enormous amount of money to start, for something that has time and time shown it does not draw enough interest to sustain itself. 

Your 2nd point is correct and more logical.  The Collective Bargaining agreement needs to be revisited and there needs to be a common sense designation of a certain number of developmental players by team allowed to practice year round. 

[Snell41]

2 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

They should simply make an agreement with the CFL for loaning players.  An already established league and though the rules are different players still benefit from the playing time.  A reasonable number of CFL players go back to the NFL each year at least to get to camps.  Some of them make it full time in the NFL and some are even high end players.

Existing league that has survived long term whom you already have a pretty good relationship, cooperative on the costs thus keeping them low. 

So, your suggestion is the NFL call up the CFL, tell them they want to employ a cooperative system that allows them to send young, developing players over to their league to go through all of their mishaps because at the moment they aren't good enough for the NFL.  Then right when the player starts to show promise, or when an injury in the NFL creates the need, the NFL could then just pluck said player off the CFL team at any time they  want.  So as a fan of the CFL when my team is playing great and headed to the championship game the starting QB can just be plucked away at a moment's notice because their contingent NFL team needs a starter?  I'm sure the CFL is just dying to sign up for that one!

[Warfish]

He's 100% right.

The College System is an exploitative, corrupt bullsh*t system in every possible way.

The NFL needs to pony up, and create a Minor League/Developmental League system to groom players for the big league.

As a bonus, this would also move the NFL into a host of smaller Cities, broaden the fan base, and provide some real alternate-content for Football fans to enjoy.

Small Domes, 20K capacity max, in non-NFL/Non-MLB cities, played during the SUMMER.  

At some point the College system is going to be legislated out of existence, rightfully so frankly, as the abusive horror show of corruption it is.  So the NFL can either move soon, or move then, but it'll have to move eventually.

[August]

A minor league is overdue i mean what are they waiting for? What's the holdup?

[nyjunc]

it's hard to have a minor league when CFB is so popular.  The NBA has done it w/ the D-League but it's easier w/ far fewer players.  

[Beerfish]

Just now, Snell41 said:

So, your suggestion is the NFL call up the CFL, tell them they want to employ a cooperative system that allows them to send young, developing players over to their league to go through all of their mishaps because at the moment they aren't good enough for the NFL.  Then right when the player starts to show promise, or when an injury in the NFL creates the need, the NFL could then just pluck said player off the CFL team at any time they  want.  So as a fan of the CFL when my team is playing great and headed to the championship game the starting QB can just be plucked away at a moment's notice because their contingent NFL team needs a starter?  I'm sure the CFL is just dying to sign up for that one!

Gee you did a whole lot of speculation on my post without me saying anything about how it would work.

First of all that already happens, when players get good they leave for the NFL because many contracts are two years plus an option.  For example my home town team won the Grey Cup last year, we lost 4 or 5 players to NFL camps.  We will for sure lose another one or two this year.

The CFL has relatively small rosters 46 players 45 can dress on game day, this with 12 men on the field at once rather than 11.

A possibility would be to have an extra 2 or 3 NFL sponsored roster spots where the NFL pays the salary of the player.  Playing time and actually calling a player up would have to be negotiated. 

Lots' of players are already getting training in he CFL as it is in the present system, why not try and go that extra step.

The ideal situation would be to have a true minor league but the as has been pointed out it is costly and no guarantee these leagues last.  The CFL as been around for a 60 years.

 

[Lupz27]

Just restart the NFL Europe league, and offer countries like Germany, Spain, France ect. Regular season games instead of all overseas games in England.

[Beerfish]

3 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Just restart the NFL Europe league, and offer countries like Germany, Spain, France ect. Regular season games instead of all overseas games in England.

Europe does seem to be having an increasing hunger for the NFL so it could work this time.

[Snell41]

27 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Gee you did a whole lot of speculation on my post without me saying anything about how it would work.

First of all that already happens, when players get good they leave for the NFL because many contracts are two years plus an option.  For example my home town team won the Grey Cup last year, we lost 4 or 5 players to NFL camps.  We will for sure lose another one or two this year.

The CFL has relatively small rosters 46 players 45 can dress on game day, this with 12 men on the field at once rather than 11.

A possibility would be to have an extra 2 or 3 NFL sponsored roster spots where the NFL pays the salary of the player.  Playing time and actually calling a player up would have to be negotiated. 

Lots' of players are already getting training in he CFL as it is in the present system, why not try and go that extra step.

The ideal situation would be to have a true minor league but the as has been pointed out it is costly and no guarantee these leagues last.  The CFL as been around for a 60 years.

 

Correct, but they are under contract with the CFL for the season.  The NFL doesn't pluck a QB midstream because it's not feasible.  The problem is if you tie minor league teams to the NFL, who controls it?  If I am the leadership of the Jets and sending a kid to a minor league program to work, I want that player working and playing in an environment that mirrors my NFL vision.  I want the offense to be Chan's design. I want the Defense to be Todd's design.  This isn't baseball, it's not like you hit, you field, you pitch.  Sure strategies can differ a bit, but essentially your job is an individual job as a player.  The NFL role is specific to the strategy.  Teaching kids to be MLB's in a 4-3 isn't going to benefit a 3-4 NFL defense.  Teaching a QB to run a West Coast style offense in the minor leagues with WCO language doesn't help a downfield run and shoot attack.  So in order for the CFL to be symbiotic with the NFL, you would need team to team matchups.  If you make a contractual agreement to have a player tied to the CFL and NFL dually, you're basically allowing that player to be plucked at a moment's notice from the CFL.  The CFL won't go for that, and the only way it's beneficial for the NFL is under an agreement of mutual development.  In other words, it just can't happen. 

[BurnleyJet]

He's so right, the NFL now is like a fav episode you love, but you've seen it so many times and it's just boring now. 

Same teams Win.

Tom Brady.

Elite Team bias.

Not enough QB's.

Terrible officiating .

Over priced product.

Roger Goodell.

Very predictable League. 

 

[Snell41]

26 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Just restart the NFL Europe league, and offer countries like Germany, Spain, France ect. Regular season games instead of all overseas games in England.

If NFL Europe was making money it'd still be here. 

[Ohio State NY Jets fan]

15 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

If NFL Europe was making money it'd still be here. 

Mismanaged is a better word, they had 15k per game average attendance, 40k for the World Bowl, they should have been able to make money or at least break even...  

That said, when Goodall shut it down,  NFL Europe reportedly was losing about $30 million a season, Revis and Mo made more money this year, it was a rounding error in the NFL long range plan (if they had a plan that was not based on pure greed) yet provided additional players and fans...

[Snell41]

Mismanaged is a better word, they had 15k per game average attendance, 40k for the World Bowl, they should have been able to make money or at least break even...  
That said, when Goodall shut it down,  NFL Europe reportedly was losing about $30 million a season, Revis and Mo made more money this year, it was a rounding error in the NFL long range plan (if they had a plan that was not based on pure greed) yet provided additional players and fans...

Money doesn't really come from stadium participation, it comes from TV revenue. That's where NFL Europe fell short.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[section314]

1 hour ago, nyjunc said:

it's hard to have a minor league when CFB is so popular.  The NBA has done it w/ the D-League but it's easier w/ far fewer players.  

In reality, aren't both College football and basketball minor leagues?

[Beerfish]

32 minutes ago, Snell41 said:

Correct, but they are under contract with the CFL for the season.  The NFL doesn't pluck a QB midstream because it's not feasible.  The problem is if you tie minor league teams to the NFL, who controls it?  If I am the leadership of the Jets and sending a kid to a minor league program to work, I want that player working and playing in an environment that mirrors my NFL vision.  I want the offense to be Chan's design. I want the Defense to be Todd's design.  This isn't baseball, it's not like you hit, you field, you pitch.  Sure strategies can differ a bit, but essentially your job is an individual job as a player.  The NFL role is specific to the strategy.  Teaching kids to be MLB's in a 4-3 isn't going to benefit a 3-4 NFL defense.  Teaching a QB to run a West Coast style offense in the minor leagues with WCO language doesn't help a downfield run and shoot attack.  So in order for the CFL to be symbiotic with the NFL, you would need team to team matchups.  If you make a contractual agreement to have a player tied to the CFL and NFL dually, you're basically allowing that player to be plucked at a moment's notice from the CFL.  The CFL won't go for that, and the only way it's beneficial for the NFL is under an agreement of mutual development.  In other words, it just can't happen. 

Football players are football players, if you are going to the length of wanting it to be a true minor league system then you have to go the route you want to go for sure but it probably not feasible. 

Cam Wake was a pass rushing DE up here.

Dexter McCoil who was on my cfl the last few years was a hybrid LB and is now playing for the chargers as a hybrid safety.

CFL teams would be more amenable than you think in some cases if as I said these were extra poster spots that the cfl teams are not paying for. 

 

[Jet_Engine1]

So, MLB can afford a multi tiered farm team system with full rosters, stadiums, coaching staff, etc all over the country but the NFL is crying poor mouth at creating a system to make their product better? 

 

Stupid.

 

It doesn't even need to be a full league, or even teams. It could be set up like passing camps playing 9 on 7 and teaching route concepts, mechanics, etc. Look at Petty, he has all the physical tools, he just needed to learn stuff like calling plays in the huddle, playing under center, etc. It doesn't need to be a revenue generator in and of itself, but a better product will lead to more money 

 

Its called an investment.

 

 

[Integrity28]

41 minutes ago, BurnleyJet said:

He's so right, the NFL now is like a fav episode you love, but you've seen it so many times and it's just boring now. 

Same teams Win.

Tom Brady.

Elite Team bias.

Not enough QB's.

Terrible officiating .

Over priced product.

Roger Goodell.

Very predictable League. 

 

Or, to simplify it, David Stern's NBA.

[Snell41]

Football players are football players, if you are going to the length of wanting it to be a true minor league system then you have to go the route you want to go for sure but it probably not feasible. 
Cam Wake was a pass rushing DE up here.
Dexter McCoil who was on my cfl the last few years was a hybrid LB and is now playing for the chargers as a hybrid safety.
CFL teams would be more amenable than you think in some cases if as I said these were extra poster spots that the cfl teams are not paying for. 
 

You're using Wake as an example, but Wake was a pass rushing 4-3 DE in Canada, then left and signed on to a 4-3 Team in the NFL. He was not affiliated with the NFL at all obviously.

Now let's talk in a symbiotic world- NY Jets draft a Nose Tackle and want him to develop in Canada. Their affiliated Canadian team can't be a 4-3 team or the development is not all that productive.

Add to that, let's say having a 1-1 CFL to NFL team is not feasible, which it's not obviously. How does the CFL team manage prospects? Jets and say CAR both have a QB they want developed, who gets preference? The better QB? Ok, then what's the point of the team sending a QB to sit on the bench in Saskatchewan when he can sit on a bench here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mecca]

1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:

Just restart the NFL Europe league, and offer countries like Germany, Spain, France ect. Regular season games instead of all overseas games in England.

I'm in a masters program at Rutgers for Global Sports business and this is essentially my proposal.

[PFSIKH]

1 hour ago, Snell41 said:

A minor league system would take an enormous amount of money to start, for something that has time and time shown it does not draw enough interest to sustain itself. 

Your 2nd point is correct and more logical.  The Collective Bargaining agreement needs to be revisited and there needs to be a common sense designation of a certain number of developmental players by team allowed to practice year round. 

Not if they are smart.

There are 32 teams with 31 stadiums.  Create a JV team for each team.  Let them use the home stadiums and charge like 5 dollars or make it free.  Expand the practice squad out to 40 players.  Let teams protect 20 players so other teams cannot just promote them to their teams like you can do now. 

It would essentially be modeled after the higher European soccer leagues.

[Snell41]

I'm in a masters program at Rutgers for Global Sports business and this is essentially my proposal.

In your proposal how do you think you would make it a profitable or even break even, which the NFL couldn't do? TV revenue was nearly non-existent even though game attendance was fair. Serious question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Crusher]

1 minute ago, PFSIKH said:

Not if they are smart.

There are 32 teams with 31 stadiums.  Create a JV team for each team.  Let them use the home stadiums and charge like 5 dollars or make it free.  Expand the practice squad out to 40 players.  Let teams protect 20 players so other teams cannot just promote them to their teams like you can do now. 

It would essentially be modeled after the higher European soccer leagues.

Now that's just hurtful.

[JiFtheOracle]

This goes back to a thread during the preseason.  We talked about how not only is their no development league but also how QB's are so behind the 8ball entering the league because 95% of them play in a gimicky offense that doesnt translate to the NFL.  They all basically need to learn the position all over again entering the league.  And teams for the most part, dont have the patience.  

I predicted we'd see an emphasis on D and a return of the run game to help alleviate the fact that most QB's are not NFL ready anymore.

[Jetdawgg]

This type of developmental league investment is called R and D in some companies. R and D is not a profit center. The profit comes from the developed product.

[CanadaSteve]

This isn't just about QB play.  Hockey and baseball have minor league systems at various levels.  You start in A ball and work your way up; same in hockey.  When they come to the NHL and MLB, they are polished.  Football needs this as well.  How many players go undrafted and after 2 years of sitting on a practice squad can contribute?

Just imagine how much better the sport would be if players had 2-3 years to develop their skills in professional practice and live-game minor/developmental leagues?  The NFL would EXPLODE even more so in popularity, and smaller markets would be exploited by placing minor league affiliates in Iowa, Arkansas, Utah, etc..

Imagine being able to trade prospects for NFL ready players?  Imagine how they could market the trade deadline, just like the NHL and MLB do?  I am more dumb-founded how this league is over 50 years old and it STILL does not have such a system.

[section314]

4 minutes ago, JiF said:

This goes back to a thread during the preseason.  We talked about how not only is their no development league but also how QB's are so behind the 8ball entering the league because 95% of them play in a gimicky offense that doesnt translate to the NFL.  They all basically need to learn the position all over again entering the league.  And teams for the most part, dont have the patience.  

I predicted we'd see an emphasis on D and a return of the run game to help alleviate the fact that most QB's are not NFL ready anymore.

Which makes what Prescott has done so far even more remarkable. Aikman said it a few weeks back that Dak came from a system where he was never under center. Having the best Oline in the biz obviously helps, burt still pretty impressive, none the less.

[nyjunc]

44 minutes ago, section314 said:

In reality, aren't both College football and basketball minor leagues?

they act as minor leagues but in a perfect world for these teams they'd be able to control the players in their system like in baseball so they can develop them and not rely on others.

[Lupz27]

16 minutes ago, JiF said:

This goes back to a thread during the preseason.  We talked about how not only is their no development league but also how QB's are so behind the 8ball entering the league because 95% of them play in a gimicky offense that doesnt translate to the NFL.  They all basically need to learn the position all over again entering the league.  And teams for the most part, dont have the patience.  

I predicted we'd see an emphasis on D and a return of the run game to help alleviate the fact that most QB's are not NFL ready anymore.

Pat Mahomes II says hello.

[Lupz27]

15 minutes ago, Jetdawgg said:

This type of developmental league investment is called R and D in some companies. R and D is not a profit center. The profit comes from the developed product.

Yes like PS4 losing huge amounts of money on the game console because they know the profit from selling the games that work on the console will more then make up for the lose.

[section314]

10 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

they act as minor leagues but in a perfect world for these teams they'd be able to control the players in their system like in baseball so they can develop them and not rely on others.

Agreed.