The real orchestrator of this Jets wreck wont come out of hiding

[CrazyCarl40]

6 hours ago, C Mart said:

You really think Bowles wasn't on board w/the Lee pick?  C'mon. And let's give Lee more than a yr. He's still developing 

I'm sure he was on board. Doesn't make it the correct pick. And I see Lee as a solid contributor over the next several seasons. Doesn't make it the correct pick.  

[Randy Rasmussen]

I think the coaching staff needs to stop fitting players into a scheme. Just adjust the scheme to fit the talent.
I believe that's how it done by professionals.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[rangerous]

11 hours ago, varjet said:

The team has been horribly coached on three sides of the ball.  It was better last year.  

If it is not better in 2017', Bowles needs to go, perhaps with Macc if the players do not look better.  Mac should be picking players for potentially the next coach.

Bowles better pray that he can hire a new and better DC to bail him out.

Someone objective needs to be their boss in 2017.   Someone smart, other than Woody.

right.  so the big question is how was is more right last season than this one?  the players in the defense are roughly the same.  you'd think they would've picked up bowles defensive schemes better.  the pass rush isn't as good but that's no excuse for the missed coverages in the secondary.

[munchmemory]

12 hours ago, Pac said:

Maccs job is to get the players.  I think he's done an decent to good job there.

Bowles job is to get the most out of whatever players he has.  In that endeavor he's failed miserably.  They're consistently unprepared, unmotivated, and ugly.  As if that weren't bad enough they also either can't grasp the D or don't care enough to try.

This seasons failure is 95% on Bowles and the coaching staff and 5% on Macc.

Just look at them play..  they're not trying.  Just collecting checks.  It's as disgusting a display as I've seen in the last 30 years.  I had my back turned to the game last night messing around with my fantasy teams.  It's just plain cringe worthy. 

My only quibble with your post is that all season we've watched our secondary and LBs get lit up in coverage.  IMO, that falls not only on the coaching staff (who appear to be out of their depth by fathoms) but on Mcc for going to war with players who just can't cover.

[shevys]

14 hours ago, AFJF said:

Worst thing Mac did was refuse to give Bilal Powell more playing time, especially when you look at how the offense performed last season when he became a focal point down the stretch.

 

Mac? Since when does the GM make that call? 

[ZachEY]

In his top 4 picks, at present, Macc has missed all but the time the best player in the draft fell to him.

This is not good.

[Integrity28]

28 minutes ago, gEYno said:

In his top 4 picks, at present, Macc has missed all but the time the best player in the draft fell to him.

This is not good.

Eh, I still believe in giving these guys a year or two... Leo is special, but that was obvious from day one. 

To early to judge the other guys. Look at Winters, took him a couple years, but he's turned to be a good player. They can't all just get plugged in to dominate.

[Integrity28]

13 hours ago, Pac said:

Maccs job is to get the players.  I think he's done an decent to good job there.

Bowles job is to get the most out of whatever players he has.  In that endeavor he's failed miserably.  They're consistently unprepared, unmotivated, and ugly.  As if that weren't bad enough they also either can't grasp the D or don't care enough to try.

This seasons failure is 95% on Bowles and the coaching staff and 5% on Macc.

Just look at them play..  they're not trying.  Just collecting checks.  It's as disgusting a display as I've seen in the last 30 years.  I had my back turned to the game last night messing around with my fantasy teams.  It's just plain cringe worthy. 

This.

[nyjunc]

Todd Bowles is the man most responsible.  he has been given enough talent to compete with.

[rex-n-effect]

It's hard to judge Macc fairly with this team. On one hand there are a number of things that he has seemingly done well (e.g. WR) but on the other hand this year we are one of the worst teams in football. It's hard to overlook how bad we are. This team is underperforming its talent level and that has a lot to do with coaching. In most circumstances it would be fair to criticize the GM for the coach's poor performance but Macc didn't hire and can't fire Bowles. Can't criticize Macc for who Bowles puts on the field or the plays called. I also believe some of the worse contracts may have been dictated by Woody in which case you can't criticize Macc for doing what his boss told him he had to do. Can't say for sure though. Just seems like the kind of stupid meddling Woody would do.

[Randy Rasmussen]

Listening to Macc's midseason presser I believe he subscribes to the Bruce Coslet school of management.
In this case it's, I GM'd great but they played lousy.


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[JiFtheOracle]

A top 10 offense and a top 10 defense goes to bottom of league in both categories the following year with a more talented team.

That's all coaching.  100%.

Mac has sh*tted all over the draft and singed nothing but terrible FA's but there is still talent on this team.  They're coached by a blubbering moron, that's the problem. 

[FidelioJet]

12 hours ago, phill1c said:

As far as Mac goes, he's had two years to draft in the middle of the first round. this year, he's near the top of draft. Time to draft some IMPACT PLAYERS, someone who other teams fear and have to scheme against. I'm looking at successful teams. They have fast linebackers, large corners who can cover, TEs that can catch, OL that can block at multiple levels, edge rushers, safeties who can make plays either by intercepting passes or hitting people.

Time for the Jets to draft players who make a difference.

He had #6 in his first year.

[bostonmajet]

52 minutes ago, Integrity28 said:

Eh, I still believe in giving these guys a year or two... Leo is special, but that was obvious from day one. 

To early to judge the other guys. Look at Winters, took him a couple years, but he's turned to be a good player. They can't all just get plugged in to dominate.

And look at the difference between last year and this year with Leo. Even the best pick of the draft took a year to start to hit his stride (although his rookie year was pretty good)...

[shawn306]

12 hours ago, jeremy2020 said:

If your QB needs to be surrounded by great players then he's likely not a great QB. What leads you to believe that he's ever going to have a much better supporting cast than what he has now?

so bascially you want him to be Brady, Brees or Rodgers from the get go

[shawn306]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

right.  so the big question is how was is more right last season than this one?  the players in the defense are roughly the same.  you'd think they would've picked up bowles defensive schemes better.  the pass rush isn't as good but that's no excuse for the missed coverages in the secondary.

Defense is missing Snacks in a big time way. IMHO.

[bostonmajet]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

In his top 4 picks, at present, Macc has missed all but the time the best player in the draft fell to him.

This is not good.

So, now we are only looking at the first 2 rounds? Sometimes, especially drafting in the 20s, they miss out in the first round or 2. It happens. I know that he tried to trade up this year to get OL (even after looking at trading up for QB), and apparently tried to trade out of the Lee pick too. It happens.

Is Lee to small to play in the NFL, probably, but is the problem Lee's size, or that Bowles didn't use him correctly? As for Smith; he never really had an injury history, so him blowing out his knee isn't something he should have seen. How many hyped up 1st round picks were lost for a season due to injury. Do you think those teams regretting drafting that player? I guess the Houston messed up by drafting Clowney as he was lost for his rookie year? And, as for Hack, yeah let's call him a bust before he even takes a regular season snap. Mac said all along that he was going to get a 'red shirt' year and he was an investment. So, maybe let's wait until 2017 or 2018 to evaluate that pick.

In the draft, it is a numbers game; you need to keep drafting and hoping a player sticks. How many TEs did the Cheaters pick before hitting it with Gronk? He drafted Smith, and then grabbed up Anderson, J. Marshall, and Peake - he is trying to hit.

Let's forget that it often takes 3 years to evaluate a draft. Sometimes, if the draft is really bad, like with Idzik, you know there are issues in a year or two (and his draft looks worse every year as more and more of his picks not only don't say with the jets, but are out of the league already). But, often it takes a few years to know for sure.

[ZachEY]

1 hour ago, bostonmajet said:

So, now we are only looking at the first 2 rounds? Sometimes, especially drafting in the 20s, they miss out in the first round or 2. It happens. I know that he tried to trade up this year to get OL (even after looking at trading up for QB), and apparently tried to trade out of the Lee pick too. It happens.

Is Lee to small to play in the NFL, probably, but is the problem Lee's size, or that Bowles didn't use him correctly? As for Smith; he never really had an injury history, so him blowing out his knee isn't something he should have seen. How many hyped up 1st round picks were lost for a season due to injury. Do you think those teams regretting drafting that player? I guess the Houston messed up by drafting Clowney as he was lost for his rookie year? And, as for Hack, yeah let's call him a bust before he even takes a regular season snap. Mac said all along that he was going to get a 'red shirt' year and he was an investment. So, maybe let's wait until 2017 or 2018 to evaluate that pick.

In the draft, it is a numbers game; you need to keep drafting and hoping a player sticks. How many TEs did the Cheaters pick before hitting it with Gronk? He drafted Smith, and then grabbed up Anderson, J. Marshall, and Peake - he is trying to hit.

Let's forget that it often takes 3 years to evaluate a draft. Sometimes, if the draft is really bad, like with Idzik, you know there are issues in a year or two (and his draft looks worse every year as more and more of his picks not only don't say with the jets, but are out of the league already). But, often it takes a few years to know for sure.

No, you judge his entire body of work, which overall, has not been exceptionally promising.  I used the first two rounds as an example because that is where you are expected to get your best players.

I don't know what the problem with Lee is.  I do know that he has not lived up to what you'd hope from a linebacker picked in his position.  Unquestionably, that could change, and the book isn't written on him.  But, regarding him, the book isn't starting off as strongly as you'd like.  I think he'll turn into an okay player, but you gotta get more out of that draft slot than okay.

As for Smith, he's barely played in two years, and when he has, hasn't even done the one thing he's supposed to do well, well.  I don't think there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about him.  Fortunately, and as a plus for Macc, he's been replaced by Robbie Anderson, who, with a bit more strength and some coaching re: holding onto the ball, could be a nice player for us.  But, with Smith, you're talking about 2 years of 0 production, not just one.

Hack, yeah, we've all heard the redshirt thing.  But, you take those guys in the 5th round, not the second.  A team with this many holes can't invest valuable resources in a player who you're 2 years away from even giving meaningful reps to.  On top of that, Hack sucked in college, and he came in fourth place in a QB competition that included Fitz, Geno, and Petty, not exactly a promising start.  Frankly, I'll be a bit surprised if Hack ever actually does take a regular season snap, at least one that is in a meaningful game/situation, so maybe we'll never be able to evaluate him.

Agreed.  We don't know "for sure."  I'm not suggesting that we do.  But, we do see the state of the team, and these players, and for that, the GM bears significant responsibility.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, gEYno said:

No, you judge his entire body of work, which overall, has not been exceptionally promising.  I used the first two rounds as an example because that is where you are expected to get your best players.

I don't know what the problem with Lee is.  I do know that he has not lived up to what you'd hope from a linebacker picked in his position.  Unquestionably, that could change, and the book isn't written on him.  But, regarding him, the book isn't starting off as strongly as you'd like.  I think he'll turn into an okay player, but you gotta get more out of that draft slot than okay.

As for Smith, he's barely played in two years, and when he has, hasn't even done the one thing he's supposed to do well, well.  I don't think there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about him.  Fortunately, and as a plus for Macc, he's been replaced by Robbie Anderson, who, with a bit more strength and some coaching re: holding onto the ball, could be a nice player for us.  But, with Smith, you're talking about 2 years of 0 production, not just one.

Hack, yeah, we've all heard the redshirt thing.  But, you take those guys in the 5th round, not the second.  A team with this many holes can't invest valuable resources in a player who you're 2 years away from even giving meaningful reps to.  On top of that, Hack sucked in college, and he came in fourth place in a QB competition that included Fitz, Geno, and Petty, not exactly a promising start.  Frankly, I'll be a bit surprised if Hack ever actually does take a regular season snap, at least one that is in a meaningful game/situation, so maybe we'll never be able to evaluate him.

Agreed.  We don't know "for sure."  I'm not suggesting that we do.  But, we do see the state of the team, and these players, and for that, the GM bears significant responsibility.

Okay is better than crap.

Jets have had a ton of crap picks.

[ZachEY]

4 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Okay is better than crap.

Good is better than okay.

Is there a point you're driving towards?

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

Good is better than okay.

Is there a point you're driving towards?

UNless you have a slam dunk option, keep the okay.

[ZachEY]

6 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

UNless you have a slam dunk option, keep the okay.

Players with "okay" as their upside can be found much later in the draft.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

Players with "okay" as their upside can be found much later in the draft.

Except in Lee's case, he was projected 1st round. Lee wasn't a reach. Hackenberg was definitely a reach and I have maintaned that throughout the process.

[ZachEY]

11 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Except in Lee's case, he was projected 1st round. Lee wasn't a reach. Hackenberg was definitely a reach and I have maintaned that throughout the process.

He may not have been a reach, but he may very well be a bad pick.  I know that as long as it's not a "bean counter" you don't care, but for some of us, results actually matter.  I realize this is a super novel concept, but try to follow along.

[jeremy2020]

2 hours ago, shawn306 said:

so bascially you want him to be Brady, Brees or Rodgers from the get go

No, I'm fine giving him time to develop, but saying that he's bad because of the bad players he plays with is a self fellating illusion. If he's going to be a good QB, he's going to do it with whatever supporting cast is available. The idea that "If only he has the best OL, Best RBs, Best WRs then..." is silly. He's not going to have those things.

[rangerous]

2 hours ago, shawn306 said:

Defense is missing Snacks in a big time way. IMHO.

snacks is a big part but him being missing doesn't explain how the secondary is either out of position or just getting flat out beaten.

[UnitedWhofans]

55 minutes ago, gEYno said:

He may not have been a reach, but he may very well be a bad pick.  I know that as long as it's not a "bean counter" you don't care, but for some of us, results actually matter.  I realize this is a super novel concept, but try to follow along.

Which is why I said this year is a big year for him. 

[UnitedWhofans]

Bottom line: Maccagnan is not getting as much blame from media and fanbase because he did things what media and fanbase wanted him to do. They wanted Fitz back, they wanted Wilkerson resigned, they wanted Revis back. 

So to criticize him would make them hypocrits.

[ZachEY]

11 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Which is why I said this year is a big year for him. 

Every year is big for a GM, exponentially more so for the GM of losing franchises.  Thus far, Macc has not meaningfully improved the Jets, nor demonstrated that he is capable of doing so.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, gEYno said:

Every year is big for a GM, exponentially more so for the GM of losing franchises.  Thus far, Macc has not meaningfully improved the Jets, nor demonstrated that he is capable of doing so.

I disagree. I saw the 2014 Jets and this team. I have more faith in this team to score points than that team

[ZachEY]

13 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

I disagree. I saw the 2014 Jets and this team. I have more faith in this team to score points than that team

I'm really glad you have faith.  I have statistics that say the 2014 Jets scored 17.68 PPG and the 2016 Jets are scoring 17.28 points per game.  So, statistically insignificant difference, but actually less, and your "faith" is demonstrably false.

For fun, the 2014 Jets gave up 25.06 PPG and the 2016 Jets are giving up 25.57 PPG.

So, unfortunately for your "faith," in that regard, they're essentially the exact same team, if not a tiny bit worse.

[UnitedWhofans]

7 minutes ago, gEYno said:

I'm really glad you have faith.  I have statistics that say the 2014 Jets scored 17.68 PPG and the 2016 Jets are scoring 17.28 points per game.  So, statistically insignificant difference, but actually less, and your "faith" is demonstrably false.

For fun, the 2014 Jets gave up 25.06 PPG and the 2016 Jets are giving up 25.57 PPG.

So, unfortunately for your "faith," in that regard, they're essentially the exact same team.

But, that 2014 team only scored over 30 points once. This team did it twice.

In fact, the 2014 Jets and 2016 Jets have both scored 20 points+ 6 times.  Except this team has 2 games to go.

2016 Jets haven't been shut out. The 2014 team was.

While your stat suggests that the 2014 Jets were more consistent, the 2016 Jets are more explosive.

Another difference is the people doing it.

2014 Jets average age: 26.2

2016: 25.9 (And that includes older players coming off the books)

The 2014 Jets had Decker, Kerley and Harvin. Relatively old combined.

This team has Anderson, Enunwa, and Peake. Young players. More upside. 

[bostonmajet]

1 hour ago, gEYno said:

No, you judge his entire body of work, which overall, has not been exceptionally promising.  I used the first two rounds as an example because that is where you are expected to get your best players.

I don't know what the problem with Lee is.  I do know that he has not lived up to what you'd hope from a linebacker picked in his position.  Unquestionably, that could change, and the book isn't written on him.  But, regarding him, the book isn't starting off as strongly as you'd like.  I think he'll turn into an okay player, but you gotta get more out of that draft slot than okay.

As for Smith, he's barely played in two years, and when he has, hasn't even done the one thing he's supposed to do well, well.  I don't think there's a lot of reason to be optimistic about him.  Fortunately, and as a plus for Macc, he's been replaced by Robbie Anderson, who, with a bit more strength and some coaching re: holding onto the ball, could be a nice player for us.  But, with Smith, you're talking about 2 years of 0 production, not just one.

Hack, yeah, we've all heard the redshirt thing.  But, you take those guys in the 5th round, not the second.  A team with this many holes can't invest valuable resources in a player who you're 2 years away from even giving meaningful reps to.  On top of that, Hack sucked in college, and he came in fourth place in a QB competition that included Fitz, Geno, and Petty, not exactly a promising start.  Frankly, I'll be a bit surprised if Hack ever actually does take a regular season snap, at least one that is in a meaningful game/situation, so maybe we'll never be able to evaluate him.

Agreed.  We don't know "for sure."  I'm not suggesting that we do.  But, we do see the state of the team, and these players, and for that, the GM bears significant responsibility.

I think we are too early to know how good or bad his drafts are, but teams take flyers on guys that can't play their first year all of the time.

I remember, I think it was the bills, drafted a guy in the first round that was injured and placed on IR for his first year. 

Maybe we drafted Hack too early; maybe we shouldn't have drafted him at all, but I don't think drafting a guy in the 2nd round that you know isn't going to play in the first year is as-and-in-itself a mistake. If we take the 'it takes 3 to 4 years' to evaluate a draft, then let's give Hack another year or two.

I am NOT saying that Mac is the GM we have needed; I am saying that so far he hasn't been soooo bad that we can't go forward with him. Next year, and the year after should determine whether or not we stay with Mac.

With Idzik, it didn't take long to know we didn't want him. I am not there with Mac yet, and so far I think he is doing a pretty good job. It is like Petty; I have seen growth, composure, and up and down execution. Unlike many QBs we have had not show this growth. So, for now I am optimistic; doesn't mean I am sold. He has a long way to go.

[MaxAF]

21 hours ago, Ken Shroy said:

Flawed analysis regarding Petty. He says that the teams sux and lacks talent, correct, but we should determine that Petty is going to be nothing as he is surrounded by crappy players. Dumb.

Hard to go through your progressions when you're running for your life

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, bostonmajet said:

I think we are too early to know how good or bad his drafts are, but teams take flyers on guys that can't play their first year all of the time.

I remember, I think it was the bills, drafted a guy in the first round that was injured and placed on IR for his first year. 

Maybe we drafted Hack too early; maybe we shouldn't have drafted him at all, but I don't think drafting a guy in the 2nd round that you know isn't going to play in the first year is as-and-in-itself a mistake. If we take the 'it takes 3 to 4 years' to evaluate a draft, then let's give Hack another year or two.

I am NOT saying that Mac is the GM we have needed; I am saying that so far he hasn't been soooo bad that we can't go forward with him. Next year, and the year after should determine whether or not we stay with Mac.

With Idzik, it didn't take long to know we didn't want him. I am not there with Mac yet, and so far I think he is doing a pretty good job. It is like Petty; I have seen growth, composure, and up and down execution. Unlike many QBs we have had not show this growth. So, for now I am optimistic; doesn't mean I am sold. He has a long way to go.

What I'm worried about is that if Macc is let go after next year, which he might deserve, Woody will, instead of getting another football talent guy, get a bean counter like Idzik or even Tanny to an extent. Then we have no shot