HOF Criteria

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, SAR I said:

This.

Playoffs don't determine if one is a Hall Of Famer.  It's the entire career, and Eli is a .500 quarterback.  I can't even believe we are having this conversation.  He wasn't even Top 5 at his position. 

Eli's reward for his career will be 2 rings and 2 Super Bowl MVP trophies.  That's enough.

SAR I

Yet you defend Sanchez. You are an odd man.

[section314]

1 minute ago, Biggs said:

I'd put Bo in the HOF for his 91 yard run into the tunnel on Monday night football. 

That was the game that began the destruction of “the Boz” when he ran over him on another TD run.

[Savage69]

14 hours ago, BallinPB said:

Yeah but then look at the QBs around him and let me know the amount of games played compared to him.  I get that durability is a plus but that doesn’t make you great.  All I’m saying is was there ever a season where you thought Eli was a top 3 QB in the league?   Just name one season.  

It worked for the compiler..

[section314]

30 minutes ago, jgb said:

Yet you defend Sanchez. You are an odd man.

That's a great point.

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, Biggs said:

For 2 SB runs he was arguably the best QB in the NFL against the best competition. 

 

I’m not sure what this means. Eli wasn’t close to being a top 5 QB in either 2007 or 2011.

He was good to great in several playoffs games (he was great against GB and NE in the 4 games against those two teams) and decent to mediocre against SF. 

I’ll stick with the point that Curtis was closer to being a top 5 running back over the duration of his career than Eli was to being a top 5 QB over the duration of his. 

[UntouchableCrew]

2 hours ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

Try comparing his numbers to elway. The numbers are identical. And NOBODY would argue elway shouldn't be in the hall of fame.

 Eli has more passing yards — 57,073 to Elway’s 51,475, more touchdowns 366 to 300, a higher career completion percentage 60.3% to 56.9%, and one more Super Bowl MVP

  

Well I could compare numbers but of course, comparing numbers between guys who were drafted 21 years apart and didn't overlap careers at all is idiotic and totally meaningless.

You don't compare the pass happy modern era to previous eras. You compare the player to his peers. Eli was never even an All Pro. If you listed his contemporaries he's arguably not even a top ten guy from his era.

[section314]

2 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

Well I could compare numbers but of course, comparing numbers between guys who were drafted 21 years apart and didn't overlap careers at all is idiotic and totally meaningless.

You don't compare the pass happy modern era to previous eras. You compare the player to his peers. Eli was never even an All Pro. If you listed his contemporaries he's arguably not even a top ten guy from his era.

Seriously? Probably heard/read it, but wow.

[slimjasi]

6 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

 

You don't compare the pass happy modern era to previous eras. You compare the player to his peers. Eli was never even an All Pro. If you listed his contemporaries he's arguably not even a top ten guy from his era.

Eli really is an enigmatic case. I think the debates about his career will be very interesting when he comes up for the hall.  

Week in and week out, he was no where near elite, yet he has two rings and two corresponding Super Bowl MVPs. 

He is 100% going to get in because of the rings and his playoff numbers, but his detractors will make a strong case against him. 

[UntouchableCrew]

29 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

Eli really is an enigmatic case. I think the debates about his career will be very interesting when he comes up for the hall.  

Week in and week out, he was no where near elite, yet he has two rings and two corresponding Super Bowl MVPs. 

He is 100% going to get in because of the rings and his playoff numbers, but his detractors will make a strong case against him. 

To be clear I agree he's 100% getting in. I just think he's getting in more due to factors other than his play. His name is Manning, he played for the NYG, and the upset of the Pats in Super Bowl 42 is one of the most memorable and iconic games of all time. And because he played for a long time an never got hurt his accumulative numbers look impressive.

In reality though, he's basically just a pumped up Joe Flacco, who nobody will think about as a potential HoFer.

[chirorob]

Eli stats.

# of times he led the league in interceptions, 3. 

# of times he completed 63% of his passes.   3  (66, 63.1 and 63)

# of times he led the league in any positive passing category.   0

Career TD to INT   366:244, which is a 1.5 to 1 ratio.   

None of that screams HOF.   He played a long time, he was durable, he had some big moments in the Super Bowl.   How often would you have put him as one of the top 5-6 QBs in the league? 

 

[southparkcpa]

2 hours ago, section314 said:

As a Jets fan, who would you rather have in a big game, Curtis Martin or Freeman McNeil? Not even close. I think Freeman is 100x better than Curtis.

Loved Freeman.  

[southparkcpa]

4 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

You have to do a lot of explaining to keep the RB with the 4th most total yards out of the HOF 

 

He choked in all the big spots 

[jgb]

1 hour ago, section314 said:

That's a great point.

and his primary point in doing so is sanchez’s Playoff record! Can’t make this stuff up 

[Biggs]

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

I’m not sure what this means. Eli wasn’t close to being a top 5 QB in either 2007 or 2011.

He was good to great in several playoffs games (he was great against GB and NE in the 4 games against those two teams) and decent to mediocre against SF. 

I’ll stick with the point that Curtis was closer to being a top 5 running back over the duration of his career than Eli was to being a top 5 QB over the duration of his. 

Playoff games are played against the best teams in the NFL.  Teams that actually make the playoffs.  In 2 playoff runs Eli was the best QB in the NFL.  

The object is to make the playoffs and lift your team by playing great in the playoffs and actually winning the SB.  Eli did that.  

I would much rather have had 2 SB with a highly talented QB who plays ok during the regular season and plays great and wins two championships than a player who plays top 5 during the season, makes the playoffs a few times and doesn't lift the team over the top.

Curtis wasn't a difference maker in actually getting a championship.  Eli was.  The goal is to win a SB.

[slimjasi]

58 minutes ago, Biggs said:

Playoff games are played against the best teams in the NFL.  Teams that actually make the playoffs.  In 2 playoff runs Eli was the best QB in the NFL.  

The object is to make the playoffs and lift your team by playing great in the playoffs and actually winning the SB.  Eli did that.  

I would much rather have had 2 SB with a highly talented QB who plays ok during the regular season and plays great and wins two championships than a player who plays top 5 during the season, makes the playoffs a few times and doesn't lift the team over the top.

Curtis wasn't a difference maker in actually getting a championship.  Eli was.  The goal is to win a SB.

But teams win Super Bowls, not individual players. There are a number of QBs who were much better players than Eli who never won a SB. 

And, if you are going to use championships as a major barometer for QBs, then don't you have to look their overall W/L record? How about the fact that Eli was 117-117 as a starter? How about the fact that the Giants missed the playoffs in 10 out of the 16 seasons that Eli was their starter? That's 62.5%. That's a lot of mediocrity for a team that supposedly had a HOF QB starting all of its games. How about the fact that Eli missed the playoffs in 7 out of his last 8 seasons?  How about the fact that he had six losing seasons as a starter? (not including his rookie season in which he came in halfway through)? Six is a lot for a HOF QB, no?

The basic problem with Eli's HOF candidacy to me is that you have to use team metrics (i.e. Super Bowl championships) to support his candidacy, but once you open that door, you are left staring at a .500 career record, 6 losing seasons, and 10 non-playoff years. So even team statistics don't paint Eli in the best light. 

Overall, you have a guy with pedestrian individual metrics (no MVPs, no all-pro selections, only 4 pro bowls in 16 years, never came close to leading the league in passing, led the league in interceptions 3 times, etc.) who also did quite a bit of losing, especially in his last 8 years where he lost almost every single season. That just seems like a bad combo for serious HOF consideration to me. 

But, at the end of the day, he was a central figure in two historic playoff runs and probably made the single most iconic play in SB history. Hence, the enigma. 

Anyway, I respect your opinion and suspect that the majority of NFL observers agree with you. 

[slimjasi]

1 hour ago, chirorob said:

How often would you have put him as one of the top 5-6 QBs in the league? 

 

Never? I personally can't find a single season over the course of his entire career for which I would have him among the top 5 QBs. 

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, southparkcpa said:

He choked in all the big spots 

Thats not true.  His career mpg is 4.0, his career playoff mpg is 4.4.  

And if you notice, in games against good playoff teams, which usually means better Ds, playing without a lead, its rare for backs not to run for fewer yards than normal. 

 

[chirorob]

1 hour ago, slimjasi said:

Never? I personally can't find a single season over the course of his entire career for which I would have him among the top 5 QBs. 

That's my thing.   He played for a long time, he was very durable.  He was never even in the conversation for best QB in the league.

It's not really an insult to the guy.   He played in the NFL for a long time.  At the time of his retirement he had more career earnings (dollars) than any other player in the history in the NFL.   I'll give him credit, he played big in some big games, and got 2 Super Bowl Rings.  The guy was worth every bit what the Giants paid to trade up and draft him, but I don't put him in the HOF.

Ironically, I wonder what Phillip Rivers would have done in the same place, same team.   Real elements, not playing in San Diego.  Would have have any rings?   Would he have won more?

[Losmeister]

20 hours ago, BallinPB said:

I myself am shocked that so many people think Eli Manning should be in the hall of fame so I would like to know what everyone thinks the criteria for being a hall of fame player is?

Do you think that making plays in clutch moments in big games should make you eligible or are you like myself who thinks you need to have sustained greatness over a period of time to in?

Also are you fans of using team accomplishments as reasoning for individual accolades?  

if Bob Griese in in the HOF....

[Biggs]

3 hours ago, slimjasi said:

But teams win Super Bowls, not individual players. There are a number of QBs who were much better players than Eli who never won a SB. 

And, if you are going to use championships as a major barometer for QBs, then don't you have to look their overall W/L record? How about the fact that Eli was 117-117 as a starter? How about the fact that the Giants missed the playoffs in 10 out of the 16 seasons that Eli was their starter? That's 62.5%. That's a lot of mediocrity for a team that supposedly had a HOF QB starting all of its games. How about the fact that Eli missed the playoffs in 7 out of his last 8 seasons?  How about the fact that he had six losing seasons as a starter? (not including his rookie season in which he came in halfway through)? Six is a lot for a HOF QB, no?

The basic problem with Eli's HOF candidacy to me is that you have to use team metrics (i.e. Super Bowl championships) to support his candidacy, but once you open that door, you are left staring at a .500 career record, 6 losing seasons, and 10 non-playoff years. So even team statistics don't paint Eli in the best light. 

Overall, you have a guy with pedestrian individual metrics (no MVPs, no all-pro selections, only 4 pro bowls in 16 years, never came close to leading the league in passing, led the league in interceptions 3 times, etc.) who also did quite a bit of losing, especially in his last 8 years where he lost almost every single season. That just seems like a bad combo for serious HOF consideration to me. 

But, at the end of the day, he was a central figure in two historic playoff runs and probably made the single most iconic play in SB history. Hence, the enigma. 

Anyway, I respect your opinion and suspect that the majority of NFL observers agree with you. 

There are almost no players in NFL history who played better in 2 SB runs.

Joe Namath had a losing record.  No SB no HOF.  

If I was drafting today and could draft Curtis or Eli, Eli would be the guy.  I would take Eli over Rivers who did nothing in big spots.  Drew, slam dunk HOF QB just fumbled away a shot for a SB on a great all around team.  Eli was magnificent when the Giants had the personal to make a run and did it twice.  

FYI he made two iconic plays in two different SB games.  The throw to Manningham was incredible. 

[slimjasi]

3 hours ago, chirorob said:

That's my thing.   He played for a long time, he was very durable.  He was never even in the conversation for best QB in the league.

It's not really an insult to the guy.   He played in the NFL for a long time.  At the time of his retirement he had more career earnings (dollars) than any other player in the history in the NFL.   I'll give him credit, he played big in some big games, and got 2 Super Bowl Rings.  The guy was worth every bit what the Giants paid to trade up and draft him, but I don't put him in the HOF.

Ironically, I wonder what Phillip Rivers would have done in the same place, same team.   Real elements, not playing in San Diego.  Would have have any rings?   Would he have won more?

I agree with all of this 

[slimjasi]

2 hours ago, Biggs said:

There are almost no players in NFL history who played better in 2 SB runs.

He's way up there on the list, which is exactly why his career is such an enigma and strange historical outlier - the rest of his career is so mediocre. 

And for this accomplishment, he will 100% be elected into the hall

[slimjasi]

4 hours ago, chirorob said:

 

It's not really an insult to the guy. 

This is another important point that needs to be emphasized. 

It's not an insult to say that a guy isn't a hall of famer. Eli had a great career and I would give anything to see a Jets QB win two Super Bowl MVPs in my lifetime. I just think his overall career is filled with a lot of mediocrity. It's just a strange career. A great career. but a strange one. 

[Eaton Beaver]

On 1/24/2020 at 8:39 PM, Beerfish said:

Well numbers either mean something or they don't.

Winning SBs either means something or it doesn't.

He has numbers and SB wins.

Rogers, favre, brees 1 SB

Marino zero

Are you comparing Eli to those QBs? He was a slightly above average QB who hung on a long time. Those Giant defenses should have been the MVPs of the 2 Super Bowls, but the Manning name took precedence. If it hadn't been for the Tyree lucky play, or the NE corner who let an interception go right between his hands, the Giants don't win either of them games. I don't want to hear about luck either, Manning was a slightly above average QB, who will be a Hall of Famer because of his heritage, while guys like Joe Klecko, who dominated during the regular season are screwed over.

[Eaton Beaver]

19 hours ago, TheNuuFaaolaExperience said:

Winning two Super Bowls doesn't automatically get you into the hall of fame. See: Jim Plunkett. 

Being a two time Super Bowl MVP against Bill Belichick's and Tom Brady's dynasty can't be overstated. He ended what would have been the greatest season of the NFL, and any American sport for that matter. 210 consecutive regular season starts doesn't hurt. Most players don't win a Super Bowl. Most players don't even make it to the Super Bowl. Most players don't win a Super Bowl MVP. A total of FIVE players have won multiple Super Bowl MVPs including the guy Eli Manning beat twice. Tom Brady has four Super Bowl MVPs. If Eli Manning had beaten Phillip Rivers and Andy Dalton instead of Tom Brady, there MIGHT be a case for Eli not making the hall of fame. 

Eli didn't beat Tom Brady twice,, it is a team game, so go back and watch again, the defense won both of them games. Manning should have to buy a ticket to get into the Hall of Fame, but he will get in because of his name.

[Darnold Schwarzenegger]

Y'all are some haters.

If I told you that Sam Darnold would play for 16 years, winning 2 Super bowls, 2 super bowl MVPs, and never missed a game due to injury everyone here would be saying he's a first ballot hall of famer. And easily the best player to ever wear a jet uniform.

Add in the fact that he would finish his career in the top 10 for most completions, passing yards & and total TD passes. Yea, I don't even think it's much if a discussion. Dude is definitely getting in the hall of fame. 

[Eaton Beaver]

6 hours ago, Biggs said:

There are almost no players in NFL history who played better in 2 SB runs.

Joe Namath had a losing record.  No SB no HOF.  

If I was drafting today and could draft Curtis or Eli, Eli would be the guy.  I would take Eli over Rivers who did nothing in big spots.  Drew, slam dunk HOF QB just fumbled away a shot for a SB on a great all around team.  Eli was magnificent when the Giants had the personal to make a run and did it twice.  

FYI he made two iconic plays in two different SB games.  The throw to Manningham was incredible. 

Joe Namath won 51 years ago..totally different game, you can't compare them. So Eli made 2 great plays in the Super Bowl, so lets forget about his mediocre career and put him into the Hall of Fame? Eli was never magnificent, the reason the Giants won those 2 games was the defense and the pressure they got on Brady, Period!!

[Losmeister]

7 hours ago, Eaton Beaver said:

Joe Namath won 51 years ago..totally different game, you can't compare them. So Eli made 2 great plays in the Super Bowl, so lets forget about his mediocre career and put him into the Hall of Fame? Eli was never magnificent, the reason the Giants won those 2 games was the defense and the pressure they got on Brady, Period!!

pssst

 

made ONE great play.

 

Tyree bailed him out with the helmet catch.

[Losmeister]

9 hours ago, Darnold Schwarzenegger said:

Y'all are some haters.

If I told you that Sam Darnold would play for 16 years, winning 2 Super bowls, 2 super bowl MVPs, and never missed a game due to injury everyone here would be saying he's a first ballot hall of famer. And easily the best player to ever wear a jet uniform.

Add in the fact that he would finish his career in the top 10 for most completions, passing yards & and total TD passes. Yea, I don't even think it's much if a discussion. Dude is definitely getting in the hall of fame. 

Jet fans are so envious its embarrassing.

Its hard to call the majority actual football fans cos they interpret everything thru a massive inferiority complex and an infinite bitterness on top of fantastical idolatry of mediocre players. ( yes, we had a handful of studs)

[chirorob]

23 hours ago, section314 said:

As a Jets fan, who would you rather have in a big game, Curtis Martin or Freeman McNeil? Not even close. I think Freeman is 100x better than Curtis.

Ironically, Freemans biggest issue was injuries.  So, the question would be if Freeman was healthy enough.

[TheNuuFaaolaExperience]

16 hours ago, Eaton Beaver said:

Eli didn't beat Tom Brady twice,, it is a team game, so go back and watch again, the defense won both of them games. Manning should have to buy a ticket to get into the Hall of Fame, but he will get in because of his name.

Yeah. He beat Tom Brady twice.