What is funnier in this Panthers 1st day of mini camp article?

[Jetsfan80]

7 hours ago, kelticwizard said:

And you know this how??

I've known bosses who have fired people, but I have yet to see any who wish nothing but failure on the guy once he leaves.  Darnold haters apparently will never be satisfied until they see a news story on TV about Sam ending up living under a highway overpass and squeegeeing car windows to get his daily bottle of Thunderbird.

I just want a high 2nd and 4th round pick from Carolina next year, my man.  What happens after that doesn't matter a whole lot.  He's gone, and the poor Panthers will be left paying the guy over $20M in 2022.  Sucks to suck.  

It's going to be a shame, however, when both Rhule and Brady lose their jobs because of the Darnold debacle.  I like both of them.  They should have hitched their wagons to a rookie QB rather than a 4th-year QB who has failed for nearly 40 games.

[Jetsfan80]

11 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

You know people keep saying this.  He had a good game against a piss poor Pats D.  He looked like garbage against the fins in a shut out loss, 120 yards and a couple of picks against the Bills, 130 yards against KC etc.  Finished the season with 55% pass completions and 0 wins.  

They both were horrible.  Flacco wasnt any better

When you say "Flacco had a good game", that's 1 more than Darnold had all year.  And Flacco only had 4 tries.  Darnold had 12.  

[jgb]

17 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

After the severe buyer's remorse for Carolina comes to an end, I imagine Darnold will bounce around to 1-2 more teams.  Much like Mark Sanchez did.  He'll be out of the league by about the age of 27-28.  

He has youth and hypothetical upside going for him now... once that fades, what is his niche? Can't be trusted by a good team to keep things afloat if their FQB misses limited time but will no longer possess potential upside for non-contending teams to take a risk on. Will be very interesting to see how his career plays out. I'm surprised Geno is a QB2 on a good team no less, so anything's possible.

[Jetsfan80]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Darnold's obstacle is that he doesn't even fit what teams want in a veteran backup. Steady, conservative, mistake-avoidance. He has youth and hypothetical upside going for him now... once that fades, what is his niche? Can't be trusted by a good team to keep things afloat if their FQB misses limited time but will no longer possesses potential upside for non-contending teams to take a risk on. Will be very interesting to see how his career plays out. I'm surprised Geno is a QB2 on a good team no less, so anything's possible.

Yep.  He's a 4th-year project QB.  He should have gone to a team who already had a rock solid starting QB.  But since he was moved for draft assets, all it took was one of 31 teams believing in him as a starter for that to become an impossibility.  The Panthers weren't going to give up a 2 and a 4 to have him sit, especially not behind someone like Bridgewater.

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yep.  He's a 4th-year project QB.  He should have gone to a team who already had a rock solid starting QB.  But since he was moved for draft assets, all it took was one of 31 teams believing in him as a starter for that to become an impossibility.  The Panthers weren't going to give up a 2 and a 4 to have him sit, especially not behind someone like Bridgewater.

I totally agree. Like I said I've believe the expectations got to him. Just like they did at USC after the Rose Bowl Legend was born. He's a prime candidate for bench time and it may actually be the best thing for him. Would it change anything materially? I don't know. But it would give him the chance to take a breather and work on his mechanics and decision-making without the weight of expectation.

[Jet Nut]

36 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

When you say "Flacco had a good game", that's 1 more than Darnold had all year.  And Flacco only had 4 tries.  Darnold had 12.  

And no matter how we dice it, Flacco wasnt so good that it proved anything

[Jetsfan80]

5 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

And no matter how we dice it, Flacco wasnt so good that it proved anything

It proved Sam Darnold, in his 3rd year, was worse than a 35-year old, disinterested Joe Flacco.  And that's sad.

At least we know for sure that Darnold was better than Luke Falk.

[Jet Nut]

18 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It proved Sam Darnold, in his 3rd year, was worse than a 35-year old, disinterested Joe Flacco.  And that's sad.

At least we know for sure that Darnold was better than Luke Falk.

It actually didnt prove it.  

Thats the point

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

It actually didnt prove it.  

Thats the point

But the entire case for Darnold (beyond "Gase" and "bad situation") is built on a miniscule sample size of dubious and unqualifiable "flashes."

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

But the entire case for Darnold (beyond "Gase" and "bad situation") is built on a miniscule sample size of dubious and unqualifiable "flashes."

I'm not disputing any of that.  

I'm disputing the idea that Flacco with the same talent did much better.

With that same talent he performed at a historically bad rate vs the fins.  Not much about taking Darnold up a notch as taking Flacco down a bit

Theyre both gone now, with good reason

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

I'm not disputing any of that.  

I'm disputing the idea that Flacco with the same talent did much better.

With that same talent he performed at a historically bad rate vs the fins

It's pretty simple.  Flacco did better.  Darnold should have done much better than Flacco.  And those who want to blame his circumstances for all his failures simply cannot overlook that. 

I don't get what's so hard to admit about this.  2 QB's in the same huddle helps cancel out a lot of variables.  It's useful to look at.  Particularly the deep ball accuracy aspect.  Mims' and Perriman's productivity was much better with Flacco than Darnold.  

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It's pretty simple.  Flacco did better.  Darnold should have done much better than Flacco.  And those who want to blame his circumstances for all his failures simply cannot overlook that. 

I don't get what's so hard to admit about this.  2 QB's in the same huddle helps cancel out a lot of variables.  It's useful to look at.  Particularly the deep ball accuracy aspect.  Mims and Perriman's productivity was much better with Flacco than Darnold.  

Youre making a whole lot out of one game.  

 

[Jetsfan80]

6 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Youre making a whole lot out of one game.  

You just summed up Darnold's entire career with this statement.  

[Jet Nut]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You just summed up Darnold's entire career with this statement.  

And as I said before, this isnt about Darnold its about the idea that Flacco got anything out of this offense.  Lets face it they both sucked last year, as did the offense on a whole

[ZachEY]

22 hours ago, johnnysd said:

One thing no one seems to be pointing out is the Joe Brady might be sort of the next Gase. He did not get much out of Bridgewater last year why do we think he will all of sudden turn Darnold into a FQB. People thinking  the light magically goes on for Sam are clinging to a very thin weed at the top of a cliff. There is no logical reasoning to suggest Sam will improve other than truly extreme projection

The immortal Bill Belichick didn't know how to coach for 6 years, suddenly learned, and now has seemingly forgotten again.  Brian Schottenheimer has been credited by both Brees and Rivers for his coaching, then he was the worst coach ever, and then he's running a top of the league offense.  He also forgot how to coach for a stretch.

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, TeddEY said:

The immortal Bill Belichick didn't know how to coach for 6 years, suddenly learned, and now has seemingly forgotten again.  Brian Schottenheimer has been credited by both Brees and Rivers for his coaching, then he was the worst coach ever, and then he's running a top of the league offense.  He also forgot how to coach for a stretch.

Point?

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Point?

Coaching doesn't matter as much as the players on the field, particularly at QB. 

Even Belichick admitted he didn't have enough talent this year.  

[jgb]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Coaching doesn't matter as much as the players on the field, particularly at QB. 

Even Belichick admitted he didn't have enough talent this year.  

QB is almost everything in today’s NFL. I’d rather have JAGs + Tom Brady (which sums up a large part of his NE career, BTW) than 2 all-pro receivers + Teddy Bridgewater. And Teddy doesn’t even suck just definitionally mediocre and one of the most boring QBs in the NFL.

[pointman]

13 hours ago, jgb said:

No Jets fan should want that since it devalues our 2nd and 4th round picks from Carolina. But Sam defenders would rather be right on a messageboard than for the Jets to benefit so I'm sure you'll be dancing in the streets.

This is a good point. CAR triggering his 5th year guaranteed option has now given Darnold "walk-away money." He won't have to hang around the league as a backup for years (like a Geno,  who never scored that big payout). Once he gets that $20M, if he's not seen as a starter anymore he can sail off on his golden boogie board, if he wants.

I bet Darnold sinks. He sucks so bad at everything. 

[pointman]

18 hours ago, kelticwizard said:

And you know this how??

I've known bosses who have fired people, but I have yet to see any who wish nothing but failure on the guy once he leaves.  Darnold haters apparently will never be satisfied until they see a news story on TV about Sam ending up living under a highway overpass and squeegeeing car windows to get his daily bottle of Thunderbird.

lolwut? 

[kelticwizard]

On 6/30/2021 at 7:42 PM, slats said:

Lol, is it so difficult to admit that the Jets did absolutely nothing to support him? With the makeover Joe Douglas has done over two offseasons on the OL, and at WR, and RB, it would seem that the organization recognized it.

 

On 6/30/2021 at 7:44 PM, jgb said:

JD was right not to invest around Darnold. I admit AND applaud.

 

20 hours ago, jgb said:

If you want me to summarize my position, all you have to do is ask because you’re really bad at it ?

Slats posted the organization did nothing to support Darnold.  Your response admitted and applauded that.  Please explain how that doesn't mean the organization did not do its best to support Sam in his third year.

[kelticwizard]

On 6/28/2021 at 8:35 PM, jgb said:

Yep and yet they still tried to keep Brees! The only similarity between Drew Brees and Sam Darnold is that they are both homo sapiens.

How do you know?  Take a look at the record in comparable spots in their career.

Drew Brees was drafted in 2001, and sat on the bench for a year. 

His second year, at age 23, he was starter and went 8-8 with 17 TDs and 16 INTs.

His third year he went 2-9 with 11 TDs and 15 INTs.   Total for first two years as a starter = 10W, 17L,  with 28 TD, 31 INTs.

 

Same Darnolds first two years starting at age 21: 11W, 15 L, with 36 TDs and 28 INTs.  Yet you are supremely confidant Sam cannot improve much.

Oh, one more thing:  In Drew Brees' backfield from his first year starting was a RB named LaDainian Tomlinson.  One of the most explosive offensive assets ever.  Has Sam ever had such an asset?  Why the confidence in Sam's failure?

 

 

[jgb]

2 hours ago, kelticwizard said:

 

 

Slats posted the organization did nothing to support Darnold.  Your response admitted and applauded that.  Please explain how that doesn't mean the organization did not do its best to support Sam in his third year.

Huh?

[jgb]

4 hours ago, kelticwizard said:

How do you know?  Take a look at the record in comparable spots in their career.

Drew Brees was drafted in 2001, and sat on the bench for a year. 

His second year, at age 23, he was starter and went 8-8 with 17 TDs and 16 INTs.

His third year he went 2-9 with 11 TDs and 15 INTs.   Total for first two years as a starter = 10W, 17L,  with 28 TD, 31 INTs.

 

Same Darnolds first two years starting at age 21: 11W, 15 L, with 36 TDs and 28 INTs.  Yet you are supremely confidant Sam cannot improve much.

Oh, one more thing:  In Drew Brees' backfield from his first year starting was a RB named LaDainian Tomlinson.  One of the most explosive offensive assets ever.  Has Sam ever had such an asset?  Why the confidence in Sam's failure?

 

 

You keep asking how do I know. Again, for like the 5th time: I don’t know. But I’m quite sure. Everyone raises Drew Brees in the support-of-Sam discussion. Why? Because there aren't many examples to choose from that come close to fitting. That’s an extreme outlier. The odds of Sam turning it around are very low, even if we assume there are similarities between Sam's and Brees' Chargers situation, which there are very few, if any at all. I'm playing the odds.

If you're going against the odds, you can't just cite one guy who had a turnaround 20 years ago. That doesn't get you there. You have to explain how your guy specifically fits and is a candidate to be an extreme outlier himself. Lots of QBs have started out their careers very badly. Very few ever got good. Especially after 3 years as the NFL's worst QB according to many statistical measures. The existence of an outlier does not make a specific case any more likely to occur. It's like arguing that Minshew will be the next great NFL QB because Tom Brady was also drafted in the 6th round.

This has devolved into me explaining again and again that I am not 100% certain Darnold can never be a good QB but the odds of him doing so are very low.

Then you respond with “yeah, but how do you know?”

I'm not sure where to go from here without something specific to respond to. Why does Sam belong in the Brees Bucket (population: 1) and not the bucket of all the other highly-drafted QBs who were just plain old busts (population: dozens, or more)? Was fun debate (not sarcasm, I enjoyed it). Would be happy to do a friendly charity bet around Sam's future, that way a good cause wins regardless of who is right.  

[doitny]

On 7/1/2021 at 2:35 AM, kelticwizard said:

So if JD made up his mind to teardown the team before Sam's last year, as you said, then you can't hold Sam's third year against him.  That means you have to judge Sam on his first two years, where he was 11-15 for the two years with a team even you have admit is untalented.

 

11-15 with a Macagnan team?  Doesn't sound like a bust to me.

yes you can.

so then why hold 2020 against anyone? why does only sam get a pass? with your thinking we shouldnt get rid of anyone from last year. 

somebody call up Perriman and Gores agents. its unfair to judge then on a tear down season. 

so how many chances does sam get? if sam stayed with us, is this roster good enough to judge him on? you cant say that for sure. the draft picks might not be as good as we hope. the FA might not live up to expectations.

then were back here next year and you will tell me sam has to get ANOTHER season cause the roster was bad.

the roster could be bad, but sam could have still put up good numbers. 

[JohnnyLV]

21 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Coaching doesn't matter as much as the players on the field, particularly at QB. 

Even Belichick admitted he didn't have enough talent this year.  

OK, but that points to Sam being even worse and validating moving on from him

[jgb]

9 hours ago, doitny said:

yes you can.

so then why hold 2020 against anyone? why does only sam get a pass? with your thinking we shouldnt get rid of anyone from last year. 

somebody call up Perriman and Gores agents. its unfair to judge then on a tear down season. 

so how many chances does sam get? if sam stayed with us, is this roster good enough to judge him on? you cant say that for sure. the draft picks might not be as good as we hope. the FA might not live up to expectations.

then were back here next year and you will tell me sam has to get ANOTHER season cause the roster was bad.

the roster could be bad, but sam could have still put up good numbers. 

Suddenly we are going to hear how bad CAR’s weaponz and OL are…

[pointman]

There is way too much defending of Darnold in this thread. This is about how hilarious his performances in the offseason are. 

[Jetsfan80]

21 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

OK, but that points to Sam being even worse and validating moving on from him

Exactly right.  

[Jetsfan80]

9 hours ago, doitny said:

yes you can.

so then why hold 2020 against anyone? why does only sam get a pass? with your thinking we shouldnt get rid of anyone from last year. 

somebody call up Perriman and Gores agents. its unfair to judge then on a tear down season. 

so how many chances does sam get? if sam stayed with us, is this roster good enough to judge him on? you cant say that for sure. the draft picks might not be as good as we hope. the FA might not live up to expectations.

then were back here next year and you will tell me sam has to get ANOTHER season cause the roster was bad.

the roster could be bad, but sam could have still put up good numbers. 

 

Somehow people are always trying to separate the QB from the roster.  As if the QB can't be a reason the roster as a whole is bad. 

It's Roster VS. QB on JN.  It's rarely a discussion of how the QB can help make the roster look better or worse.  If the QB is bad, it must be because his WR's, OL, and coaching all suck.  It can't be him sucking too.  You would think many here would have learned their lesson from Mark Sanchez.  Bad QB on a good roster, and the QB was still bad.  

[flgreen]

On 7/1/2021 at 2:26 AM, kelticwizard said:

And you know this how??

I've known bosses who have fired people, but I have yet to see any who wish nothing but failure on the guy once he leaves.  Darnold haters apparently will never be satisfied until they see a news story on TV about Sam ending up living under a highway overpass and squeegeeing car windows to get his daily bottle of Thunderbird.

Nah, that is reserved for Geno.   

[slats]

41 minutes ago, pointman said:

There is way too much defending of Darnold in this thread. This is about how hilarious his performances in the offseason are. 

I have no reason to take a crap on Darnold, like so many here feel the need to do. He didn’t work out, and now he’s gone. But he was a good soldier who had every right to take a public crap on the Jets substandard organization but decided against it. The positioning of a second round pick isn’t enough for me to root against him this year, either. I’d like to see him do well -especially to further point out just how bad the team he QB’d was- but really don’t care if he doesn’t. He’s not on the Jets anymore. He’s not my problem. 

[jgb]

21 minutes ago, slats said:

I have no reason to take a crap on Darnold, like so many here feel the need to do. He didn’t work out, and now he’s gone. But he was a good soldier who had every right to take a public crap on the Jets substandard organization but decided against it. The positioning of a second round pick isn’t enough for me to root against him this year, either. I’d like to see him do well -especially to further point out just how bad the team he QB’d was- but really don’t care if he doesn’t. He’s not on the Jets anymore. He’s not my problem. 

If you don’t really care if he does well why sacrifice even one slot of positioning of the second or fourth round picks to see it?

 

Funny how for years those who criticized Darnold were told they’d rather be right on a messageboard than see the Jets do well. Now the shoe is on the other foot and we see it really was all about Darnold and not the team all along for his supporters.

 

[pointman]

27 minutes ago, slats said:

I have no reason to take a crap on Darnold, like so many here feel the need to do. He didn’t work out, and now he’s gone. But he was a good soldier who had every right to take a public crap on the Jets substandard organization but decided against it. The positioning of a second round pick isn’t enough for me to root against him this year, either. I’d like to see him do well -especially to further point out just how bad the team he QB’d was- but really don’t care if he doesn’t. He’s not on the Jets anymore. He’s not my problem. 

I'm not crapping on him. I just think he is very bad at his chosen vocation and too many people are obsessed with defending him. 

[slats]

17 minutes ago, jgb said:

If you don’t really care if he does well why sacrifice even one slot of positioning of the second or fourth round picks to see it?

 

Funny how for years those who criticized Darnold were told they’d rather be right on a messageboard than see the Jets do well. Now the shoe is on the other foot and we see it really was all about Darnold and not the team all along for his supporters.

 

I root for the Jets. I root for their players. Sometimes those players leave and I hope they have success wherever they went. That’s about the extent of it. If they were one of your dad’s thugturds, they could go **** themselves (see: Adams, Jamal), but Darnold was a good guy here. The difference between the 40th and 50th pick of the draft isn’t enough to make me want him to fail. Sorry.