Jets Wire: PFF on ZW

[jgb]

12 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Sacks are a QB stat for a reason.  Taking a lot of them in most cases falls on the QB.  Some OLs truly are terrible but that certainly wasn’t the case for the 2021 Jets. 

Justin Herbert had the worst-graded OL in the NFL his rookie year yet still blasted away the rookie TD record.  He isn’t particularly mobile, either.  So it really isn’t a valid excuse for Wilson’s play.  

 

8 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Exactly ! even terrible OL's can be made to look good if the QB gets the ball out quick which is exactly what our offense is designed to do. An undecided rookie QB can easily make it look like the fault is on the OL. When it comes to guys coming in untouched its usually up to the QB and at least one of the WR's to hot read that sh*t and adapt to get the ball out quick. If there is no read on that play or if just the QB or Just the WR reads the play and adjusts it usually leads to trouble since they come in hot and there's really nothing the OC can do at that stage.

“[He] didn’t look comfortable inside the structure of the Jets’ offense as a rookie, holding onto the ball for 3.05 seconds on average (fourth highest in NFL)”

https://heavy.com/sports/new-york-jets/zach-wilson-nyj-x-factor-2022/amp/

Jets OL gave him enough time to be 4th highest in the league in time to throw. If you need an elite OL to not be the lowest-rated QB in the NFL, you are not a FQB. Someone needs to stand up for the OL against all this SOJF bashing.

[Beerfish]

1 hour ago, The Crusher said:

Good point . If only Cousins could get off the sh*tty franchise that drafted him and go to a team that built a contender. 

Elway was an underachiever for years because he could never win the big one, jim kelly could never win the big one, marino never won the big one.

Cousins throws for yards, tds and does not have an absurd number of turnovers, his play actually gives your team a chance to win games.

[Warfish]

Metrics and Stats are for dumb losers. 

Cousins is why the Coaching, Defense, Specials, Running game and GM fails.

Zach is clearly much better than Cousins.

#JustJNthings

P.S. Jets are a 9 win team last year with Cousins instead of Zach.  

And the Jets are a Super Bowl contender this year with Cousins and this roster.

[Jet Nut]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

 

“[He] didn’t look comfortable inside the structure of the Jets’ offense as a rookie, holding onto the ball for 3.05 seconds on average (fourth highest in NFL)”

https://heavy.com/sports/new-york-jets/zach-wilson-nyj-x-factor-2022/amp/

Jets OL gave him enough time to be 4th highest in the league in time to throw. If you need an elite OL to not be the lowest-rated QB in the NFL, you are not a FQB. Someone needs to stand up for the OL against all this SOJF bashing.

He was a raw rookie playing with a team that in most games lacked  NFL WRs.  He extended plays with his feet, sometimes too early but the 3 seconds he held onto the ball isn’t necessarily a function of good OL play. 
Who has said you need an elite OL to turn him into a FQB?  

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Metrics and Stats are for dumb losers. 

Cousins is why the Coaching, Defense, Specials, Running game and GM fails.

Zach is clearly much better than Cousins.

#JustJNthings

P.S. Jets are a 9 win team last year with Cousins instead of Zach.  

And the Jets are a Super Bowl contender this year with Cousins and this roster.

Funny because Cousins has played on better teams than the Jets, with SB contending talent and hasnt come close to contending for a SB.  He has only one playoff win in 4 tries.  

Today Cousins is on the downside of his career.  I’d take any of the top 5 QBs drafted over Cousins.  I’d bet that every GM would also
 

[jgb]

17 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

He was a raw rookie playing with a team hat in most games lacked  FL WRs.  He extended plays with his feet, sometimes too early but the 3 seconds he he.d onto the ball isn’t necessarily a function of good OL play. 
Who has said you need an elite OL to turn him into a FQB?  

It’s the vibe when many bashed the OL despite them grading in the middle of the pack most of the season and taking a huge leap in rating with MW and JJ behind center. 

QB is the straw that stirs the drink.

[jgb]

16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

 

Today Cousins is on the downside of his career, I’d take any of the top 5 QBs drafted over Cousins.  I’d bet that every GM would also
 

Cousins one of highest paid QBs in the league when he signed his deal. His next contract will easily be top 10. This is plainly false.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

Cousins one of highest paid QBs in the league when he signed his deal. His next contract will easily be top 10. This is plainly false.

And getting paid is more about supply and demand along with a rising pay scale for QBs driving the price up.  Has nothing to do with who would be taken over the other.  So yes I’ll stick with the idea that a TL, ZW, JF, MC  would be taken over Cousins.  Certainly not plainly false because of pay. 

[jgb]

Just now, Jet Nut said:

And getting paid is more about supply and demand along with a rising pay scale for QBs driving the price up.  Has nothing to do with who would be taken over the other.  So yes I’ll stick with a TL, ZW, JF, MC  would be taken over Cousins.  Certainly not plainly false because of pay.  

Ok bud lol

[The Crusher]

38 minutes ago, Beerfish said:

Elway was an underachiever for years because he could never win the big one, jim kelly could never win the big one, marino never won the big one.

Cousins throws for yards, tds and does not have an absurd number of turnovers, his play actually gives your team a chance to win games.

Absolutely, he may win one before it’s all over but he hasn’t yet. Yes, his numbers would make you think he gives his team a chance to win, but it hasn’t happen yet. We can speculate why or what but in the end he just isn’t a winner. It’s a team sport so obviously it’s a combination of him and the team and franchise he’s on but we’ve spent a lot of time on this board trying to figuring out why a QB doesn’t win. It’s easy when we discuss Jet QB’s because they have all sucked, I do admit with Cousins it’s perplexing based on his production. He simply hasn’t been able to get the team over the hump, more on him more in the team? I guess we will never know but if he ends up on another contender one day it could become clearer. 

[Jet Nut]

13 minutes ago, jgb said:

It’s the vibe when many bashed the OL despite them grading in the middle of the pack most of the season and taking a huge leap in rating with MW and JJ behind center. 

QB is the straw that stirs the drink.

I think most were aware that the OL was a lot better than the year before and what’s been out there for far too long.  It’s hard to get the ball out early when your WRs can’t get separation, run a simple pattern.  I’m pretty sure more bashed the injuries to the WR unit than the OL

[Jet Nut]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

Ok bud lol

OK and true.  The idea that players should be ranked only by their pay scale is as wrong as it gets

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

OK and true.  The idea that players should be ranked only by their pay scale is as wrong as it gets

You’re entitled to your opinion but not to mine. There’s not reason for me to refute this straw man.

[Hal N of Provo]

19 minutes ago, jgb said:

It’s the vibe when many bashed the OL despite them grading in the middle of the pack most of the season and taking a huge leap in rating with MW and JJ behind center. 

QB is the straw that stirs the drink.

They deserved to be bashed.  RG was horrible last season - and they graded well enough.  For those who watch closely  PFF is not accurate.  You can say ole 4 times not run block well enough that your team can’t run your way and they can give an ok grade.  

[Jethead]

7 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Absolutely, he may win one before it’s all over but he hasn’t yet. Yes, his numbers would make you think he gives his team a chance to win, but it hasn’t happen yet. We can speculate why or what but in the end he just isn’t a winner. It’s a team sport so obviously it’s a combination of him and the team and franchise he’s on but we’ve spent a lot of time on this board trying to figuring out why a QB doesn’t win. It’s easy when we discuss Jet QB’s because they have all sucked, I do admit with Cousins it’s perplexing based on his production. He simply hasn’t been able to get the team over the hump, more on him more in the team? I guess we will never know but if he ends up on another contender one day it could become clearer. 

Same could have been (and was) said about Stafford before last year.

[Jet Nut]

12 minutes ago, jgb said:

You’re entitled to your opinion but not to mine. There’s not reason for me to refute this straw man.

Straw man. Ok.

[jgb]

32 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

They deserved to be bashed.  RG was horrible last season - and they graded well enough.  For those who watch closely  PFF is not accurate.  You can say ole 4 times not run block well enough that your team can’t run your way and they can give an ok grade.  

So add PFF to the long list of people/organizations that one must believe to be utterly incompetent to support the narrative that our QB’s performance isn’t because he just sucks.

And I thought people who are not bullish on one dude were “haterz.”

[jgb]

27 minutes ago, Jethead said:

Same could have been (and was) said about Stafford before last year.

No one is a SB winner until they are. Only one can win each year. Every great QB can’t and won’t win one during his career.

I bet on elite production every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[Barton]

Zach looked bad last year. Was not comfortable in the pocket. Didnt stand tall, process his reads and get the ball out. Was skittish as soon as he dropped back.

If he repeats this in 2022, Jets need to go and get a good veteran QB to at the very least compete with him for the 23 job. Wentz, Cousins etc. 

[jgb]

47 minutes ago, The Crusher said:

Absolutely, he may win one before it’s all over but he hasn’t yet. Yes, his numbers would make you think he gives his team a chance to win, but it hasn’t happen yet. We can speculate why or what but in the end he just isn’t a winner. It’s a team sport so obviously it’s a combination of him and the team and franchise he’s on but we’ve spent a lot of time on this board trying to figuring out why a QB doesn’t win. It’s easy when we discuss Jet QB’s because they have all sucked, I do admit with Cousins it’s perplexing based on his production. He simply hasn’t been able to get the team over the hump, more on him more in the team? I guess we will never know but if he ends up on another contender one day it could become clearer. 

I’d put a helluva lot more weight on the quality of his performance over the 125 regular season games he has played than the results of the 4 post season appearances.

It’s also incredible that the same fan base that twisted itself in knots to convince that Darnold was a good player (despite horrible team record AND individual production) thinks Kirk Cousins sucks.

It is truly amazing.

[jgb]

10 minutes ago, Barton said:

Zach looked bad last year. Was not comfortable in the pocket. Didnt stand tall, process his reads and get the ball out. Was skittish as soon as he dropped back.

If he repeats this in 2022, Jets need to go and get a good veteran QB to at the very least compete with him for the 23 job. Wentz, Cousins etc. 

Been begging for it for years. Stop with the “all eggs in one basket” approach to finding a FQB. Draft, trade, FAs… try them all!

[Jet Nut]

47 minutes ago, Jethead said:

Same could have been (and was) said about Stafford before last year.

Except Stanford played on horrid Lion teams devoid of talent.  Stanford never had a RB who had a 100 yard rushing game.  Stanford was put on a ready made SB contending team and won the SB.  Cousins went to ready made SB contender and has never contended.  He’s 1-3 on what was a real contender

[slats]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Zach is clearly much better than Cousins.

#JustJNthings

Has a single person said this? 
 
Cousins has a cap number of $31M this year, $36M next year, then the deal voids and he’ll still count for over $12M in 2024. He’s received over $105M over four years from the team, arriving as the QB expected to get them over the hump. They were 13-3 the year before he arrived. Since then, they’re 33-31-1, with losing seasons the last two years. 
 
For the money he’s making, he should be one of these magical FQBs who makes everyone around him better and wins games. He has not been. 
 
Jets have 7 players making over $10M to the Vikes 5, and 29 players making over $2M to the Vikes 20. It’s harder to build a team when you’re giving a QB of this caliber such a large chunk of your cap. 

[Hal N of Provo]

How do you have guys coming straight up the gut seemingly not touched so many times in a game?  
 

(Thats a screen but don’t tell me there wasn’t supposed to at least be a big chip) 
 

They got new Jimmy’s and Joes, if it happens again it’s fair to question the X’s and O’s.  

[The Crusher]

1 hour ago, Jethead said:

Same could have been (and was) said about Stafford before last year.

Yes, but Stafford  was drafted by the sane team that wasted Barry Sanders and Megatron’s careers. Stafford  gets picked up by a contender  and Boom, Super Bowl champ just like one Joe Flacco. It’s easy to accept it was the Lions and not him. Cousins go’s to pretty stacked Vikings team, at least when he got  there and basically did what he did when he was in Washington. Easy to think that’s just what he does. Have to wait to see if he gets picked up by another contender, but for now he’s basically a compiler. @Savage69!

[Jetsfan80]

13 hours ago, Smashmouth said:

Its not hard to improve when you suck off the charts

Darnold:  "Hold my boogie board"

[jgb]

2 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

I think most were aware that the OL was a lot better than the year before and what’s been out there for far too long.  It’s hard to get the ball out early when your WRs can’t get separation, run a simple pattern.  I’m pretty sure more bashed the injuries to the WR unit than the OL

By all means, try again tho.

[Jet Nut]

20 minutes ago, jgb said:

By all means, try again tho.

A rookie who struggled for a huge portion of the season and who missed games at the end of the season while Davis etc were out and Mims was useless and a slot receiver who was the only one who played well and benefitted by not only being the only WR who was consistently on the field but by having Wilson on the foeld

Fun to watch you go all out proving Wilson had the benefit of a capable receiving unit the entire season when everyone knows he didn’t.  Thankfully this is you hoping that the QB succeeds.  

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, jgb said:

You’re entitled to your opinion but not to mine. There’s not reason for me to refute this straw man.

We’re all entitled to our opinions.  But it’s not just an opinion.  FA contracts are a product of timing and supply & demand.  That’s fact.  If youre the only player at a position and teams want you there is more than a little evidence that you get a better deal than players who are clearly better than you.  
Trying to make a case that Minny giving Cousins a deal that made him the highest paid QB in the NFL made him the best QB in the NFL is wrong.  Not opinion.

[Warfish]

2 hours ago, slats said:

Has a single person said this? 
 
Cousins has a cap number of $31M this year, $36M next year, then the deal voids and he’ll still count for over $12M in 2024. He’s received over $105M over four years from the team, arriving as the QB expected to get them over the hump. They were 13-3 the year before he arrived. Since then, they’re 33-31-1, with losing seasons the last two years. 
 
For the money he’s making, he should be one of these magical FQBs who makes everyone around him better and wins games. He has not been. 
 
Jets have 7 players making over $10M to the Vikes 5, and 29 players making over $2M to the Vikes 20. It’s harder to build a team when you’re giving a QB of this caliber such a large chunk of your cap. 

So lets see what of the usual loser-team meme's we have thins time:

• "We may have truly sucked these past few years, but at least our owner saved some money! Cap Space ftw!"
• "2 win seasons are really definitely better than .500 or winning seasons, because draft picks!  Just look at all those great picks we made this last decade! We win the draft every year!"
• "The QB producing at the top-5 elite level in every metric, he's the REAL problem!  Not the weaknesses literally everywhere else, top to bottom.  Just look, they had a fluke great season before that QB arrived, total proof!"
• "That QB just isn't a "winner", we're much better off with Zach, just look how elite he will be here in my crystal ball.  Hey, "Potential!"

I will admit, the "He's not magical, like Harry Potter or Tom Brady" is a new one.  Nice to see you changing it up a little, goalpost moving is always a good one in loser-land. 

4,200+ yard, 65%+ 3:1+ QB's aren't the reason teams lose.  

And if Zach is anything close to what we want, he's only a few seasons from making Cousins money himself.

But I guess I can't blame you for not knowing these things, given WE'VE never had one this century to see for ourselves....

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

So lets see what of the usual loser-team meme's we have thins time:

• "We may have truly sucked these past few years, but at least our owner saved some money! Cap Space ftw!"
• "2 win seasons are really definitely better than .500 or winning seasons, because draft picks!  Just look at all those great picks we made this last decade! We win the draft every year!"
• "The QB producing at the top-5 elite level in every metric, he's the REAL problem!  Not the weaknesses literally everywhere else, top to bottom.  Just look, they had a fluke great season before that QB arrived, total proof!"
• "That QB just isn't a "winner", we're much better off with Zach, just look how elite he will be here in my crystal ball.  Hey, "Potential!"

I will admit, the "He's not magical, like Harry Potter or Tom Brady" is a new one.  Nice to see you changing it up a little, goalpost moving is always a good one in loser-land. 

4,200+ yard, 65%+ 3:1+ QB's aren't the reason teams lose.  

And if Zach is anything close to what we want, he's only a few seasons from making Cousins money himself.

But I guess I can't blame you for not knowing these things, given WE'VE never had one this century to see for ourselves....

Many here said Deshaun Watson stinks because HOU didn’t win in 2020. This was of course after he obliterated the “weaponz” defense of garbage QBs by putting up a career year after Hopkins was traded away for a jock strap. Can anyone even name Houston’s WRs in 2020 without googling??

Good players tend to play good football. The best predictor of future production remains past production. If someone has cracked the code to correctly identify the Josh Allen outliers among the Darnolds/Rosens/Akili Smiths/100 other busts I am all ears — as are all 32 teams in the league.

People had a laugh riot when I called Tannehill’s resurgence. A dude who had two 4,000 yard seasons (and a third over 3,900) with the Fins before going to Tenn. Follow the production. It isn’t rocket science.

[jgb]

59 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

We’re all entitled to our opinions.  But it’s not just an opinion.  FA contracts are a product of timing and supply & demand.  That’s fact.  If youre the only player at a position and teams want you there is more than a little evidence that you get a better deal than players who are clearly better than you.  
Trying to make a case that Minny giving Cousins a deal that made him the highest paid QB in the NFL made him the best QB in the NFL is wrong.  Not opinion.

All good bro. Do you. 

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Jet Nut said:

A rookie who struggled for a huge portion of the season and who missed games at the end of the season while Davis etc were out and Mims was useless and a slot receiver who was the only one who played well and benefitted by not only being the only WR who was consistently on the field but by having Wilson on the foeld

Fun to watch you go all out proving Wilson had the benefit of a capable receiving unit the entire season when everyone knows he didn’t.  Thankfully this is you hoping that the QB succeeds.  

You made a statement. I disproved it. You moved the goal posts. I’m not Charlie Brown. I’m done playing. No hard feelings. For what it is worth I hope to God you are right about #2.

[slats]

18 hours ago, Warfish said:

So lets see what of the usual loser-team meme's we have thins time:

• "We may have truly sucked these past few years, but at least our owner saved some money! Cap Space ftw!"
• "2 win seasons are really definitely better than .500 or winning seasons, because draft picks!  Just look at all those great picks we made this last decade! We win the draft every year!"
• "The QB producing at the top-5 elite level in every metric, he's the REAL problem!  Not the weaknesses literally everywhere else, top to bottom.  Just look, they had a fluke great season before that QB arrived, total proof!"
• "That QB just isn't a "winner", we're much better off with Zach, just look how elite he will be here in my crystal ball.  Hey, "Potential!"

Every bullet point here is a straw man. No one has said any of these things  

 

18 hours ago, Warfish said:

I will admit, the "He's not magical, like Harry Potter or Tom Brady" is a new one.  Nice to see you changing it up a little, goalpost moving is always a good one in loser-land.

No, no moving of the goalposts. This is what FQBs do. They elevate the players around them. This is something that gets repeated around here all the time, unlike your list above. 

 

19 hours ago, Warfish said:

4,200+ yard, 65%+ 3:1+ QB's aren't the reason teams lose.

I know you love yourself some Kirk Cousins, but let’s go over it again one more time. The year before Cousins arrived in Minnesota, the Vikings went 13-3 with Case Keenum at QB throwing for 3500 yards, 22 TDs, and 7 ints. They reached the NFC Championship game that year. Kirk Cousins was brought in to be the upgrade that puts them over that hump. In Cousins first season, he put up all the numbers you regularly state makes a FQB -4300 yards, 30 TDs, 10 ints- and the team goes 8-7-1. The next year was the best record the Vikes have had since Cousins joined the team at 10-6, they went to the playoffs and were ousted in the divisional round with Cousins throwing for 170 yards a TD and an int. That was also Kirk’s lowest output at 3600 yards and 26 TDs. The next two years? Cousins is back in FQB form -4200+ yards, 33+ TDs- and the team posts back to back losing seasons. 
 
Kirk Cousins is good, don’t get me wrong, but he’s a compiler who plays it safe and comes up small when he’s needed most. Giving this guy all the money they did hamstrung their ability to build a team around him, and it’s slowly gotten worse while Cousins keeps them in a steady state of mediocrity at the cost of over $35M/year (and let’s not forget the Jets offered him even more). 33-31-1 since he joined a 13-3 team coming off an NFCCG appearance. For all his beloved stats, the one that stands out is 59-59-2. He may complete 67% of his passes, but he only wins 50% of the time. 

Before you pull out one of your handy straw men, no one is saying that the team is better off with Zach Wilson right now. Zach has a ****ton to prove at this point. But this post isn’t about Zach, it’s about Kirk. Signing Cousins would’ve been a disappointment at the very least. For all his numbers, the Vikes were better off with Keenum. He does not elevate his team, he pumps up his own numbers. 

[32EBoozer]

On 7/3/2022 at 7:47 AM, The Crusher said:

Good point . If only Cousins could get off the sh*tty franchise that drafted him and go to a team that built a contender. 

Yes… one with a generational DLman and an exceptional defense. I think that was @Smashmouth and @Beerfish point