Brock Bowers

[Paradis]

33 minutes ago, derp said:

Even if you include the rushing yards the production isn’t eye popping.

People have been saying tight ends are going to be worth high picks off and on the last couple decades. Hasn’t happened. Maybe he’ll be the first. The on field demands and finances of the position make it challenging.

Dude.. No,

Bowers had one of the best college careers in NCAA history. He was a legit Heisman Candidate, like legit as in he might have won it. A tight end in college.

Just no. I respect the argument that there's better picks for the Jets due to needs but i won't tolerate heresy lol

[Untouchable]

People are getting too focused on the position.

Bowers is a playmaker who can be lined up inline, in the slot or even out wide.

He and MHJ are the two legit, bluechip offensive skill players in the draft. We have nothing resembling playmakers on offense outside of Breece and Garrett.

Even if the Jets don’t land a dude like Davante Adams, Higgins or Evans pre-draft, I can get by with Lazard as the #2 wideout if we have Bowers and Conklin to threaten the middle with Rodgers back at QB.

[jamesr]

Lazard isn't going to be the #2 and wasn't supposed to be this year either. Only a guaranteed contract has him even on the roster ffs -- didn't he just get benched again, for UDFA rookie Brownlee, in a game where they weren't going to pass much anyway and Lazard's superior blocking would be in order? What a terrible signing, lol.
They bring in a Tyler Boyd-ish WR2 and - in combination with a serious QB throwing the ball ffs - it'll be a dramatic difference to get a guy off GW's jock. If they can do better than Boyd, great, but just to put a name on one guy.
The argument in the other direction is look at a team like Cincinnati -- they had bleh at LT and with 3 real WR weapons it didn't matter because a defense can't cover such a trio for 3 straight seconds. Not the same if it's GW + Boyd + Lazard + Conklin, which requires a better OL to buy that extra 0.3-0.4 seconds every snap.
It's still early January, so it's not yet known who'll be available in mid-March, and where prospects get projected after the combine and pro days. Lots can change. 

FA will certainly change things up. I expect we'll have a new name in the WR2 spot and clarity around the potential starting OL, so that we can go into the draft without having a gaping hole to fill at either spot. Not saying all needs will be thoroughly filled, but one way or another we won't be tied into having to pick a specific position.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

[derp]

37 minutes ago, rbstern said:

31 TDs in three years on the best overall college football team of that same period isn't eye popping?  On a team that's been loaded with talent?  George Pickens.  James Cook.  Ladd McConkey.  Darnell Washington.  A bunch of other guys playing in the NFL.

That the demands of and finances at the position make it really hard to live up to a high draft pick is really important.

But when I think eye popping I think stuff like Devonta Smith’s senior year and Ja’Marr Chase’s junior year. Bowers has been pretty consistent his three years which is good and bad, touchdowns have trended down.

[Ron Rico]

You guys see how much playing time Breece got all year, right? What do you think Hackett does with Bowers next year? LOL. Like "LT" is the only problem. 

Stop being silly. The Jets need offensive linemen. PLURAL. Some of you are like, "well if the blue chip LT's are all gone by the ten spot, take Bowers". 

I'm frustrated and sad we don't have a real GM but the only hope in Hell is trading down from ten and recouping a a 2nd round pick. There's no starters left after the 3rd round. The only guys you're going to get in 3 - 7 are backups, at best. 

But no, put it in the bank, Dogass will draft JC Latham and some team will trade up to whoever picks behind us to get Jayden Daniels or some other QB who slipped down the chart. Or worse, Dogass will draft Bowers (if he's there) and doesn't pick an O-lineman until the 5th or 6th round. LOL

I can see this a mile away. He's going to hammer us, bad. He's an idiot. 

[Jetsplayer21]

20 hours ago, TuscanyTile2 said:

If we do draft him, hopefully someone makes sure that Nate Hackett is aware that he's a very good pass catcher. 

I’m calling it now, JD will get the sweats and pick the top DL with the the 10 pick again.

[Rich Thornburgh]

15 hours ago, Icer said:

Would normally hate this move, but with both Alt and Fashanu likely off the board I wouldn't be against drafting an offensive weapon. 

If both LTs are gone take a Goddamned QB and tell Aaron if he doesn’t like it he can retire 

[Rich Thornburgh]

3 minutes ago, Ron Rico said:

You guys see how much playing time Breece got all year, right? What do you think Hackett does with Bowers next year? LOL. Like "LT" is the only problem. 

Stop being silly. The Jets need offensive linemen. PLURAL. Some of you are like, "well if the blue chip LT's are all gone by the ten spot, take Bowers". 

I'm frustrated and sad we don't have a real GM but the only hope in Hell is trading down from ten and recouping a a 2nd round pick. There's no starters left after the 3rd round. The only guys you're going to get in 3 - 7 are backups, at best. 

But no, put it in the bank, Dogass will draft JC Latham and some team will trade up to whoever picks behind us to get Jayden Daniels or some other QB who slipped down the chart. Or worse, Dogass will draft Bowers (if he's there) and doesn't pick an O-lineman until the 5th or 6th round. LOL

I can see this a mile away. He's going to hammer us, bad. He's an idiot. 

I wanted Addison last year who would have been home run for us.  I was being an optimistic homer when we drafted McDonald.  Maybe he pans out.  

[derp]

26 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Dude.. No,

Bowers had one of the best college careers in NCAA history. He was a legit Heisman Candidate, like legit as in he might have won it. A tight end in college.

Just no. I respect the argument that there's better picks for the Jets due to needs but i won't tolerate heresy lol

One of the best college careers in NCAA history is hyperbolic. And he finished lower this year in the Heisman voting than the last TE to be the best prospect since X - Kyle Pitts - his final year in college. Both struggled with injuries too.

Either way, I acknowledged he’s talented. Doesn't make his production eye popping to me, which is what you came in mid exchange on. Also doesn’t change anything about the finances or track record of highly drafted players at the position.

[TuscanyTile2]

7 minutes ago, Jetsplayer21 said:

I’m calling it now, JD will get the sweats and pick the top DL with the the 10 pick again.

Oh man.  Don't even joke like that!  lol

[THE BARON]

3 hours ago, Bronx said:

Most importantly, we are 1-0  in 2024, regardless of sacrificing 2 slots in this year's draft. 

We are hot damn it, 1-0!

Dang.  And I was excited about winning the off season again before the 2024 season started.  Now I don't even get that  We skipped over the best part of being a Jets fan.  You've ruined the day !!!

[THE BARON]

1 hour ago, Rich Thornburgh said:

If both LTs are gone take a Goddamned QB and tell Aaron if he doesn’t like it he can retire 

Jets need a RT too.  Fuaga is really a nice player.  In most other drafts, he'd be one of the more celebrated OTs.  He's lost in the sauce with Alt and Fashanu, but he's far from just the basil.  He's a nice, big chunk of gravy meat.  I have been "ALT OR BUST" for weeks, but now that they are not getting him, I'm not all that ticked off given that Fuaga will be there for them.  He looks like a premier RT.  

I think the Jets/Rodgers may recruit old man Bahktiari for LT.  He probably has a season left in him.  If then can get another solid T for depth in FA, it may be the way to go.  Fuaga at RT, Bahktiari at LT with solid insurance T as next man up. 

Adding this bit in with an edit.  The way players have been getting injured, depth seems to be more important  than just having an elite starting line up on the offensive line.   Considering that, JD should be sure to have solid number two guys... Or else ! 

[JustInFudge]

3 hours ago, chirorob said:

Vernon Davis had 7000 yards over 13 years, hit double digit TDs twice, and never had 1000 yards.   Good, but not awesome.

TJ Hockenson, good player.  Also about 900 yards a year. 

Winslow, had a bad ACL tear, but also only about about 4800 yards his first 8 seasons.

Tony G. played for 17 years, only had 3 1k yard season and double digit TD's 3 times.   Antonio Gates only had 2 1k seasons and 3 double digit TDs season.  Before Gronk and Kelce, that was the standard so I don think anything above is damning.  They were all worthy of the selection IMO.  

[JoeNamathsFurCoat]

I agree that the Jets need a TE upgrade.

That's not really up for debate.

I just couldn't disagree more with potentially using a #10 overall pick in this QB-rich, star-studded OT and WR draft to do so.

I don't care if I'm on an island here.

Joe Douglas is a fricking moron if he pulls the trigger on Bowers at #10.

[Paradis]

1 hour ago, derp said:

One of the best college careers in NCAA history is hyperbolic. And he finished lower this year in the Heisman voting than the last TE to be the best prospect since X - Kyle Pitts - his final year in college. Both struggled with injuries too.

Either way, I acknowledged he’s talented. Doesn't make his production eye popping to me, which is what you came in mid exchange on. Also doesn’t change anything about the finances or track record of highly drafted players at the position.

Yea, after he missed a month for a serious injury. Cmon his production is definitely eye popping. Not saying you have to support the pick, there's a dozen reasons to look elsewhere, but he's deserving of the love. 100%

[TuscanyTile2]

1 hour ago, Untouchable said:

People are getting too focused on the position.

Bowers is a playmaker who can be lined up inline, in the slot or even out wide.

He and MHJ are the two legit, bluechip offensive skill players in the draft. We have nothing resembling playmakers on offense outside of Breece and Garrett.

Even if the Jets don’t land a dude like Davante Adams, Higgins or Evans pre-draft, I can get by with Lazard as the #2 wideout if we have Bowers and Conklin to threaten the middle with Rodgers back at QB.

Uhm, no. 

[BigRy56]

I do not want my Jets taking elite offensive playmakers. None of that 

[derp]

5 minutes ago, Paradis said:

Yea, after he missed a month for a serious injury. Cmon his production is definitely eye popping. Not saying you have to support the pick, there's a dozen reasons to look elsewhere, but he's deserving of the love. 100%

As I said, they were both injured their respective final seasons. Pitts missed more time in 2020 than Bowers in 2023, still had better stats, and finished higher in the Heisman voting.

The definition of eye popping is going to change person to person. To me, Bowers’ collegiate accomplishments are more impressive given the context of team success than they are if you just look at his pure statistics, and his ability to move at his size is a big part of what makes him appealing too.

He’s certainly talented and deserving of love but the questions are very fair and deserve to be asked when teams are thinking about taking him.

[JustInFudge]

3 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I'll take your word for it how great he may be. A legit concern is that a TE taken so early more or less needs to hit that HOF-like ceiling to be worth the pick. He needs to be everything he's billed as being, plus he can't get injured (but that latter point goes for anyone taken that early). He pretty much has to be a 1000-yard TE with several TDs, otherwise (in terms of production) it's burning a top 10 pick on a 200-yard improvement over the likes of Tyler Conklin.

That's always the thing with taking a super low-value position that early, and it's a coin toss if RB or TE is considered the lowest value position, outside of special teams. He can't be just decent and can't get hurt; he needs to be incredible (the HOF player you describe). Maybe he will be, and you'd know better than I would, but I doubt I'd pull that trigger when entering the offseason with such needs at LT, RT, LG, and WR. 

A tackle? Yeah of course you want a great one deserving of probowl/all-pro honors year after year, but if he's pretty good it's still a worthwhile pick at 10 considering the extreme need there. 

I guess it depends on what you want out of the draft.  Do you want a run of the mill, dime a dozen T prospect, or arguably the greatest TE prospect of all time?  For me, I'll take the elite play maker. Every single year, a big dude that blocks people comes out in the draft, in fact, more then any other position T's are drafted the most.  There is an abundance of these guys out there and it's become a very easy position to fill.  There are very few TE's that can do what Bowers can do.  

 

[SomebodytoAnybody47]

3 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

I guess it depends on what you want out of the draft.  Do you want a run of the mill, dime a dozen T prospect, or arguably the greatest TE prospect of all time?  For me, I'll take the elite play maker. Every single year, a big dude that blocks people comes out in the draft, in fact, more then any other position T's are drafted the most.  There is an abundance of these guys out there and it's become a very easy position to fill.  There are very few TE's that can do what Bowers can do.  

 

It’s true. It’s a total shot in the dark when im picking a TE for my fantasy team. Need more studs!

[JustInFudge]

2 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Outside of quarterback, tackle might be the most difficult position to fill in the sport.

There's a reason dudes who are a shade above average get 17+ million per year.

I don't know enough about Bowers to truly weigh in, but by far the biggest problem with this team in '23 (outside of the Rodgers injury) has been the offensive line. Doesn't look like much will be available in free agency either.

I think it's gotta be tackle.

I dont think this is true anymore because I dont think T's are required to do what T's used to be required to do.  The league is all about getting the ball out in 2.5 seconds, teams throw more then they run, so you're not asking them to be these stone wall road graders anymore and quite frankly, no matter how good they are, they really cant keep up w/ these new age fast twitch DL running the speed of WR's.  I watch the so called best T's in the league get beat weekly.  Now clearly you cant have sh*t out there but I just dont think they are as valued as they once were and the draft does speak to that trend.  You dont see guys going in the top 5 anymore.  The T's typically start coming off around the 8-12 range. 

It's also an abundance thing.  It's the most drafted position year in, year out.  Teams find talent, all throughout the draft.  They are often injured so depth is necessary anyway.  So then, every year, these guys hit FA and move teams.  They also often play into their mid to late 30's, so there are always these guys lingering around.  They get paid because they protect teams most valuable asset, not because they're hard to find.  I think finding guys who get open, quickly, consistently and in numerous ways is more valuable now.  WR are paid more than LT's for that reason these days.  You need play makers.  

I dont think we'll have to worry about this anyway, Bowers will be off the board by 10. 

[Jet_Engine1]

So.... Brock Bowers you say? 

 

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 hour ago, JustInFudge said:

I dont think this is true anymore because I dont think T's are required to do what T's used to be required to do.  The league is all about getting the ball out in 2.5 seconds, teams throw more then they run, so you're not asking them to be these stone wall road graders anymore and quite frankly, no matter how good they are, they really cant keep up w/ these new age fast twitch DL running the speed of WR's.  I watch the so called best T's in the league get beat weekly.  Now clearly you cant have sh*t out there but I just dont think they are as valued as they once were and the draft does speak to that trend.  You dont see guys going in the top 5 anymore.  The T's typically start coming off around the 8-12 range. 

It's also an abundance thing.  It's the most drafted position year in, year out.  Teams find talent, all throughout the draft.  They are often injured so depth is necessary anyway.  So then, every year, these guys hit FA and move teams.  They also often play into their mid to late 30's, so there are always these guys lingering around.  They get paid because they protect teams most valuable asset, not because they're hard to find.  I think finding guys who get open, quickly, consistently and in numerous ways is more valuable now.  WR are paid more than LT's for that reason these days.  You need play makers.  

I dont think we'll have to worry about this anyway, Bowers will be off the board by 10. 

Build Breece Hall a wall and give Aaron Rodgers the ability to thrive on play-action. We don't need more playmakers, we need holes in the running game and league-average pass-blocking. 

If you asked me if I could have the best Left or Right tackle in the game or the best Tight End in the game - I'd take the tackle. If you asked me if I could have the consensus league-average Offensive Tackle in the game or the consensus league-average Tight End in the game, I'm taking the tackle. 

Tackles are difficult to find - we've churned through vets, developmental players, free-agent jags and first-round busts. And we have exactly 0 that we can rely on going into next season.

This all might be moot, as you say, if Bowers goes ahead of us. But I'd welcome that. This team needs at least two, if not three offensive tackles. 

[derp]

2 hours ago, JustInFudge said:

I dont think this is true anymore because I dont think T's are required to do what T's used to be required to do.  The league is all about getting the ball out in 2.5 seconds, teams throw more then they run, so you're not asking them to be these stone wall road graders anymore and quite frankly, no matter how good they are, they really cant keep up w/ these new age fast twitch DL running the speed of WR's.  I watch the so called best T's in the league get beat weekly.  Now clearly you cant have sh*t out there but I just dont think they are as valued as they once were and the draft does speak to that trend.  You dont see guys going in the top 5 anymore.  The T's typically start coming off around the 8-12 range. 

It's also an abundance thing.  It's the most drafted position year in, year out.  Teams find talent, all throughout the draft.  They are often injured so depth is necessary anyway.  So then, every year, these guys hit FA and move teams.  They also often play into their mid to late 30's, so there are always these guys lingering around.  They get paid because they protect teams most valuable asset, not because they're hard to find.  I think finding guys who get open, quickly, consistently and in numerous ways is more valuable now.  WR are paid more than LT's for that reason these days.  You need play makers.  

I dont think we'll have to worry about this anyway, Bowers will be off the board by 10. 

Regarding the bold, the first tackle has come off the board before pick 8 each of the last four drafts.

I do agree with the general idea that the skill talent makes a huge impact and can cover for the line with the way the league is played nowadays. 

Tight end is just a messy position to draft high. Can’t get much surplus value on the rookie deal with how much they get paid and teams have been trash at evaluating who the top guys will be based on college body of work.

All else equal going WR can get you that skill impact without sacrificing being prudent on the financial side, but I know those who love Bowers will argue all else is not equal - and for who’s likely there at 10 among the WR’s that may be true.

[T0mShane]

Could probably just pick up Dalton Schultz in free agency for like 2/$16mm.

[neckdemon]

16 hours ago, JustInFudge said:

I agree they need them but they are also desperate for play makers.  And just because you need OL, you dont force the issue because of need and Bowers is a rare prospect.  This year T's prospect, are just like every single years T's prospects.  No studs, no stars, just run of the mill, dime a dozen, easy to find T's.  The position in general has become very easy to fill and can easily be addressed later in the draft and through FA.

But you're right, dont worry, he wont be there at 10, so yeah, maybe you get another Becton!

The position is so easy to fill that we haven't been able to fill it reliably since brick

[Sperm Edwards]

10 hours ago, JustInFudge said:

I guess it depends on what you want out of the draft.  Do you want a run of the mill, dime a dozen T prospect, or arguably the greatest TE prospect of all time?  For me, I'll take the elite play maker. Every single year, a big dude that blocks people comes out in the draft, in fact, more then any other position T's are drafted the most.  There is an abundance of these guys out there and it's become a very easy position to fill.  There are very few TE's that can do what Bowers can do.  

 

Nobody wants that if that is how the players end up, of course. The premise only works if you know for certain you're getting the best TE player of all time, and not just the best prospect. I fully admit I've not even seen a clip of one player of Bowers, let alone many or all his starts, and likewise for any of the tackles the Jets would be able to draft.

I'm talking end results and which net-raises the team more. If Bowers represents a 200-yard upgrade per season over a TE like Conklin, then elite-shmelite he's not worth a top 10 pick. If he's putting up 1200-1300 yard TE seasons, and it's truly additional for the team (and not merely moving yards from GW to himself, seeing how GW should be in the 1300-1500 yard range with a serious/legitimate NFL QB), then yes.

It's not a judgment on Bowers the prospect so much as the TE position. You've got less room for error - in theory - if he's merely pretty good and not a HOF player. If the player is merely good but he plays LT, he's a worthwhile pick that saves the team from paying (if not trading a 1st rounder for and then paying) a veteran some $20-25MM/year.

The point is he's of course worth it if he's a HOFer but - for all his talent - the team would be better off with a long-term serviceable but not great OT starter than if he's a very good TE like TJ Hockenstein and not putting up HOF numbers. The overall team is upgraded better more in swapping a good young tackle instead of [the Jets' next round-robin of instability at the position, which may end a Rodgers season prematurely] over upgrading Conklin to a Hockenstein-ish TE who produces another 15-20 yards/game the Jets could easily find (and then some) just as they upgrade the QB and WR2 positions alone. 

Drafting a top 10 tackle is a hit if he's a probowler and is at least a worthwhile pick if he's a good starter who doesn't hurt the team (even if unspecial, so long as the very next tackle taken isn't so much better, lol). A TE taken that high is only a hit if he's another George Kittle, Travis Kelce minus an annoying and preposterously overrated girlfriend, or Tony Gonzalez. 

If the tackle taken gets only Becton-level performance for 4 seasons, or worse, then yeah duh even Brandon Pettigrew is a better pick for the team in hindsight. But so far, for all his obvious ability, if redrafting 2021 you'd find few people who'd still advocate Pitts over Sewell, let alone over Sewell and both Chase & Waddle.

That's how high the bar on a TE has to be if taken way up there, and how much smaller the margin for error is on the pick vs a tackle. That's all I'm saying. He has to be HOF productive as a player, not just HOF talented as a prospect.

[BCJet]

16 hours ago, Untouchable said:

People are getting too focused on the position.

Bowers is a playmaker who can be lined up inline, in the slot or even out wide.

He and MHJ are the two legit, bluechip offensive skill players in the draft. We have nothing resembling playmakers on offense outside of Breece and Garrett.

Even if the Jets don’t land a dude like Davante Adams, Higgins or Evans pre-draft, I can get by with Lazard as the #2 wideout if we have Bowers and Conklin to threaten the middle with Rodgers back at QB.

The bold is exactly why you dont take a TE in the top 10.  

The reason guys like Kittle are so effective and can change an offense is because of their blocking more then their receiving.  Once you put Bowers out wide, all you have is a tall, slow WR.  We have 2 excellent blocking TEs in Conklin and Ruckert and frankly if we had a half decent coaching staff we would actually know what we have in Ruckert who is an elite blocker and tested as an elite athlete.  

Its unfortunate that we will miss out on the 2 OTs and likely will not be able to pull the trigger on someone like McCarthy so JD will have to figure out how to fix the OL without top tier guys.  Would be great to trade down and pick up a more versatile IOL like Graham Barton and then a RT who can compete with Carter Warren.  What we do at LT is going to be a real challenge

[Untouchable]

23 minutes ago, BCJet said:

The bold is exactly why you dont take a TE in the top 10.  

The reason guys like Kittle are so effective and can change an offense is because of their blocking more then their receiving.  Once you put Bowers out wide, all you have is a tall, slow WR.  We have 2 excellent blocking TEs in Conklin and Ruckert and frankly if we had a half decent coaching staff we would actually know what we have in Ruckert who is an elite blocker and tested as an elite athlete.  

Its unfortunate that we will miss out on the 2 OTs and likely will not be able to pull the trigger on someone like McCarthy so JD will have to figure out how to fix the OL without top tier guys.  Would be great to trade down and pick up a more versatile IOL like Graham Barton and then a RT who can compete with Carter Warren.  What we do at LT is going to be a real challenge

Bowers is built different 

One of the things that makes him so appealing is his blocking prowess both inline and on the move. He’s very Kittle-esque and is one of the most dangerous players after the catch, regardless of position, that I’ve seen come out in a long time.

He’s a real TE with the added benefit of being used as a dangerous, oversized slot receiver.

I’d take him at #10, pair him with Conklin and Ruckert, and run more 12 and 13 personnel than any team in the league by far.

Minimizes the need for a 1b/upper tier #2 wideout, provides extra protection for Rodgers, opens up more holes for Breece, and keeps defensive coaches sh*tting their pants wondering how they’re going to defend between the hashmarks.

[JustInFudge]

12 hours ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Build Breece Hall a wall and give Aaron Rodgers the ability to thrive on play-action. We don't need more playmakers, we need holes in the running game and league-average pass-blocking. 

If you asked me if I could have the best Left or Right tackle in the game or the best Tight End in the game - I'd take the tackle. If you asked me if I could have the consensus league-average Offensive Tackle in the game or the consensus league-average Tight End in the game, I'm taking the tackle. 

Tackles are difficult to find - we've churned through vets, developmental players, free-agent jags and first-round busts. And we have exactly 0 that we can rely on going into next season.

This all might be moot, as you say, if Bowers goes ahead of us. But I'd welcome that. This team needs at least two, if not three offensive tackles. 

The Jets dont need more playmakers?  More?  They have 1.  lol  You cant be serious w/ that take.  When you are the absolute worst offense in the league, you need everything.  The Jets had the least amount of first downs, passing TD's and rushing TD's in the NFL.  The QB play is abysmal, sure but nobody on this team consistently gets open and there is nothing behind Hall who is their only game breaker and what happens if he gets hurt again?  There is no one behind him at all.  Garrett Wilson is a nice player but he needs a sh*t ton of help.  The guy literally said it himself in his exit presser, he needs someone to make it easier on him and take the pressure off of him.  I couldnt disagree more, the Jets desperately need play makers.  

I would definitely take a Kelce or Gronk in their prime over a LT.  No question about it.  

Again, Tackles are not difficult to find.  I dont know why you keep saying this and not looking the facts.  Teams literally let their T's walk every year and just draft a new one or sign a FA.  It's incredibly easy these days as their is an abundance in the league.  The Jets swung a G to RT and possibly upgraded.  It's is the most drafted position in the NFL and you find starters further into the draft more so than any other position. 

JD just sucks at OL.  He's used premium picks on Becton, AVT, Tippy and also took a T in the 4th round in back to back years w/ Mitchell and Warren.  Yet, the best T play they've had during the JD era were late camp additions veterans, Moses and Brown.  His FA acquisitions have largely been disasters and somehow, most of the guys he's let walk that supposedly suck here, are playing just fine elsewhere; Moses, Fant, Van Rotten, Edoga.   Quite frankly, I dont know why anyone would want JD to take OL w/ his track record.  

 

[JustInFudge]

6 hours ago, neckdemon said:

The position is so easy to fill that we haven't been able to fill it reliably since brick

Because your GM sucks?  

Moses is the starting RT for the Ravens.  Guess where he was before the Ravens?  Guess what fanbase complained about how bad the OL was while he played on it? 

[neckdemon]

25 minutes ago, JustInFudge said:

Because your GM sucks?  

Moses is the starting RT for the Ravens.  Guess where he was before the Ravens?  Guess what fanbase complained about how bad the OL was while he played on it? 

You think you're telling us something we don't know already? 

[JustInFudge]

4 hours ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Nobody wants that if that is how the players end up, of course. The premise only works if you know for certain you're getting the best TE player of all time, and not just the best prospect. I fully admit I've not even seen a clip of one player of Bowers, let alone many or all his starts, and likewise for any of the tackles the Jets would be able to draft.

I'm talking end results and which net-raises the team more. If Bowers represents a 200-yard upgrade per season over a TE like Conklin, then elite-shmelite he's not worth a top 10 pick. If he's putting up 1200-1300 yard TE seasons, and it's truly additional for the team (and not merely moving yards from GW to himself, seeing how GW should be in the 1300-1500 yard range with a serious/legitimate NFL QB), then yes.

It's not a judgment on Bowers the prospect so much as the TE position. You've got less room for error - in theory - if he's merely pretty good and not a HOF player. If the player is merely good but he plays LT, he's a worthwhile pick that saves the team from paying (if not trading a 1st rounder for and then paying) a veteran some $20-25MM/year.

The point is he's of course worth it if he's a HOFer but - for all his talent - the team would be better off with a long-term serviceable but not great OT starter than if he's a very good TE like TJ Hockenstein and not putting up HOF numbers. The overall team is upgraded better more in swapping a good young tackle instead of [the Jets' next round-robin of instability at the position, which may end a Rodgers season prematurely] over upgrading Conklin to a Hockenstein-ish TE who produces another 15-20 yards/game the Jets could easily find (and then some) just as they upgrade the QB and WR2 positions alone. 

Drafting a top 10 tackle is a hit if he's a probowler and is at least a worthwhile pick if he's a good starter who doesn't hurt the team (even if unspecial, so long as the very next tackle taken isn't so much better, lol). A TE taken that high is only a hit if he's another George Kittle, Travis Kelce minus an annoying and preposterously overrated girlfriend, or Tony Gonzalez. 

If the tackle taken gets only Becton-level performance for 4 seasons, or worse, then yeah duh even Brandon Pettigrew is a better pick for the team in hindsight. But so far, for all his obvious ability, if redrafting 2021 you'd find few people who'd still advocate Pitts over Sewell, let alone over Sewell and both Chase & Waddle.

That's how high the bar on a TE has to be if taken way up there, and how much smaller the margin for error is on the pick vs a tackle. That's all I'm saying. He has to be HOF productive as a player, not just HOF talented as a prospect.

It's hard to have this conversation w/ you because you've never seen Bowers play and obviously dont understand his talent.  He's like CMC in a TE's body.  You've also just kind of like made up arbitrary stats as if they are some type of bar but you also only used one reference point.  I mean, idk, I think you need to understand the player and his capabilities before vs. just using made up generic material to estimate the value he can bring to the team w/ out any context. 

For example; Conklin didnt score this year and his very best year w/ Cousins he scored 3 times.  He was around 40% 1st down conversion rate on his receptions, which is in line w/ his career average.  What if Bowers catches the same amount of passes and yards or less catches but more yards and/or has 75% conversion rate and/or 8 TD's?  (he has 6 rushing TD's on his career at Georgia, average 10.9 ypc on 19 carries) What if he adds 3 rushing TD's on the ground and picks up a few short yardage runs too?  For a team that has the least amount of first downs and TD's in the NFL, that would be a significant value add and would do more for the team then a guy who does what a lot of guys can do.  And that's completely regardless of the fact that, yes, I think Bowers could potentially double Conklin's numbers and there really arent any great T prospects this year but it is a rather deep class, just like every single year because T's are super easy to find whereas guys like Bowers are extremely rare.

 

 

[JustInFudge]

7 minutes ago, neckdemon said:

You think you're telling us something we don't know already? 

You asked the question.

[JustInFudge]

12 hours ago, derp said:

Regarding the bold, the first tackle has come off the board before pick 8 each of the last four drafts.

I do agree with the general idea that the skill talent makes a huge impact and can cover for the line with the way the league is played nowadays. 

Tight end is just a messy position to draft high. Can’t get much surplus value on the rookie deal with how much they get paid and teams have been trash at evaluating who the top guys will be based on college body of work.

All else equal going WR can get you that skill impact without sacrificing being prudent on the financial side, but I know those who love Bowers will argue all else is not equal - and for who’s likely there at 10 among the WR’s that may be true.

True, 7, 6, 6 - so the 8 range is off a bit but then 5 years ago it was like 22, so probably averages out in that rage.   Andrew Thomas is the only top 5 and he's a meh and meh gets.  Ironically, I'd argue the only top T off the board who was actually the best in that draft was Sewell who went at 7, but I digress.  

Obviously I think Bowers is unique so I'm not worried about missing.  I'd argue after Harrison Jr. he's the safest pick in the draft.  And I agree, WR > TE for sure but I like Bowers more then I like the WR's not named Harrison Jr.  That said, those WR are 100% in play when Bowers is off the board and the Jets are on the clock...I just dont love this class all that much...maybe Nabers.