A Sanchez QB Comparison

[Doggin94it]

We see all sorts of names being tossed around for "QB Mark Sanchez can be like" - everything from Brees ("they both had Schotty") to Aikman ("Aikman's first year was terrible, too!") to Brooks Bollinger (from Dan Leberfeld, anyway). Here's one I hadn't thought of until this morning, but I think works.

Phil Simms.

Think about it - Simms didn't exactly have a lights out first few years (in fact, Mark's numbers compare favorably, even taking into account the difference in eras), and his best tool as a QB was his leadership (Simms had an NFL arm, but wasn't a "wow" thrower) and, later in his career, his accuracy (he was atrociously inaccurate early on). I can see Mark developing into a Simms-like QB (can make all the throws, though not a spectacular specimen, plays his best in the clutch, unquestioned field general), and if that happens, I'd be very pleased.

[T0mShane]

Rich Gannon. Been saying that since he was drafted. Simms is a good one, too.

[CTM]

jake plummer is most appropriate imo

[Doggin94it]

Rich Gannon. Been saying that since he was drafted. Simms is a good one, too.

Thanks. Gannon's a pretty good one, too, based on play-style. The only issue is he didn't really play his first 3 years in the league, so you can't really compare development paths.

[Damaged89]

Rich Gannon. Been saying that since he was drafted. Simms is a good one, too.

I'm a little too young to really remember Gannon's good years with the Raiders, but I do remember a lot of rollouts and quick passes. That style seems to fit what Sanchez does well.

[SMC]

Simms is a good comparison.

I don't know about Gannon because he was the quintessential system QB. He had career years in Chuckie's system. He was a journeyman before that.

Also, CTM brings up Jake Plummer, but is that because of playing style? Sanchez as a pro compares favorably to Plummer at Arizona State, and not as a pro.

That said, I really don't think there is any accurate comparison to Sanchez. Without his alpha male personality and insane work ethic, Sanchez would be doomed to failure like every other college QB with less than 18 collegiate starts. Sanchez is really the exception.

He improved (sometimes dramatically and sometimes only incrementally) in every statistical category from his first season. Because of his personality and work ethic it is not a stretch to see him improve further. That's why I think it is idiotic for some to proclaim that this is the best we're going to see of Sanchez.

[Jetsfan80]

I don't know about Gannon because he was the quintessential system QB. He had career years in Chuckie's system. He was a journeyman before that.

Sanchez hasn't been in a good enough system to become a "system QB" yet, so who knows?

[Matt39]

Simms popped into my head today as well.

Gannon would be fantastic...

[FloridaJetsFan]

I was thinking a Favre type who goes after younger chicks.

[SenorGato]

*Any random WC-type QB considered good at one point.*

I'm going with a smaller Phil Rivers with less friendly weather and wind conditions.

[JoeWillie]

Sanchez's first two years have been much better than Simms'.

In fact, Simms was benched in his third year in favor of Scott Brunner because Parcells lost confidence in him and considered him not to be a hard worker. Simms was heavily criticized early on for not spending enough time in the weight room, which many people, including Parcells, blamed for him being so injury prone early on.

Of course, by his 5th season, he was closer to the Phil Simms everyone thinks of now, but early on there were many questions as to whether this guy was going to pan out.

By contrast, Sanchez, although not statistically gaudy in his first two seasons, has already guided his team to two AFC Championship games, has been statsitically better than Simms, and has played very well in both post-seasons.

That said, if we can say by the end of his career that Sanchez is in the same category with Simms, the Jets will have won a few championships for sure, because Simms ended up being a gamer and a terrific player.

Funny that at no point during his career was Simms ever considered an "elite" QB in the league, even though he was a proven winner, much like Sanchez's first two years, so I think the comparison is a good one in that respect.

[#27TheDominator]

I'm with Joe Willy. Simms was in a bad way early in his career. He looked gunshy and afraid of the rush. I haven't seen that from our boy at this time. Stylistically Simms and Sanchez don't seem similar at all, so even if they have similar success I don't think Sanchez will ever seem like Simms to me.

[jason423]

I hope Mark turns out to be better than Simms. I never thought Simms was that good and if he had not played in NY I dont think people would even give him a second thought. Boomer Esiason was a far better QB (albeit he had a smaller window of being good) but he played in Cincy and somehow seems to be held in less regard than Simms. I think Simms broadcast career has also boosted his stock as the local radio guys kiss his behind. I thought it was ridiculous when Francesa agreed with Simms that he should be in the HOF based on some of the others in the HOF (which I have to imagine is Dawson, Kelly, and Moon). At least they both agreed he was not a HOF QB, but based on the standards of the HOF he should be. Anyway, in terms of 1st year improvement the good comparables for Sanchez were Kosar and Aikman.

[Stonehands]

How about a Mexican version of Doug Williams without the rifle arm and a little better running ability?

[Doggin94it]

I hope Mark turns out to be better than Simms. I never thought Simms was that good and if he had not played in NY I dont think people would even give him a second thought. Boomer Esiason was a far better QB (albeit he had a smaller window of being good) but he played in Cincy and somehow seems to be held in less regard than Simms. I think Simms broadcast career has also boosted his stock as the local radio guys kiss his behind. I thought it was ridiculous when Francesa agreed with Simms that he should be in the HOF based on some of the others in the HOF (which I have to imagine is Dawson, Kelly, and Moon). At least they both agreed he was not a HOF QB, but based on the standards of the HOF he should be. Anyway, in terms of 1st year improvement the good comparables for Sanchez were Kosar and Aikman.

Really? I mean, Simms was no Hall of Famer, but he was legitimately an upper echelon QB, and he may have had the best passing game of any QB in Super Bowl history.

[DMaynard]

I think that some day down the road, they will be comparing some young QBs with Mark Sanchez.

[CTM]

Also, CTM brings up Jake Plummer, but is that because of playing style? Sanchez as a pro compares favorably to Plummer at Arizona State, and not as a pro.

play style is very similiar, stats seems similiar as well as a penchanct for late game heroics early in career

[JohnnyHector]

I dunno, I was thinking more along the lines of Tom Flores or Jeff Garcia, with a touch of Danny Trejo.

[jason423]

Really? I mean, Simms was no Hall of Famer, but he was legitimately an upper echelon QB, and he may have had the best passing game of any QB in Super Bowl history.

He was certainly on target in that SB game, but I dont think Id ever consider him elite. When you thought of the Giants did you ever think Simms? I didnt. You might think of LT and Parcells. Offensively you thought of a running attack with Joe Morris, Mo Carthon, OJ Anderson, etc... In that respect you could make the comparison between Sanchez and Simms right now. With the Jets you think of defense and the coach and a run first gameplan on offense. Both guys were not very accurate and both liked to take chances and throw the ball far (though Simms' era was more tolerant of the chance pass and interception). Simms also could handle the worst of the weather in the stadium.

But I never considered Simms to be great or anything like that. He probably had a 3 year window in the mid 80s around the Super Bowl run where he was a borderline PB player, but Id imagine that there were always alot of other players to take over him in the same timeframe. Statistically I doubt there was much of a difference between the Kenny O early years and the Simms "high level" years. Mentally Simms was far better and handled adversity well while O'Brien could not. Simms was on the better team and played in the playoffs pretty often. Thats really the difference to me.

[GangisGreen]

Since we are playing this game again, a more recent qb that I feel is similar is Big Ben Roethlisberger. Both seem like average qb's throughout most of the game but when needed they both seem to make plays. Also I think Sanchez's has similar elusiveness to Big Ben, neither will outrun anyone but both seem to manage to get out of trouble.

[Jetsfan80]

Sanchez reminds me most of the Greased up Deaf Guy up in Rhode Island.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaGPJ67jA6A

[Doggin94it]

He was certainly on target in that SB game, but I dont think Id ever consider him elite. When you thought of the Giants did you ever think Simms? I didnt. You might think of LT and Parcells. Offensively you thought of a running attack with Joe Morris, Mo Carthon, OJ Anderson, etc... In that respect you could make the comparison between Sanchez and Simms right now. With the Jets you think of defense and the coach and a run first gameplan on offense. Both guys were not very accurate and both liked to take chances and throw the ball far (though Simms' era was more tolerant of the chance pass and interception). Simms also could handle the worst of the weather in the stadium.

But I never considered Simms to be great or anything like that. He probably had a 3 year window in the mid 80s around the Super Bowl run where he was a borderline PB player, but Id imagine that there were always alot of other players to take over him in the same timeframe. Statistically I doubt there was much of a difference between the Kenny O early years and the Simms "high level" years. Mentally Simms was far better and handled adversity well while O'Brien could not. Simms was on the better team and played in the playoffs pretty often. Thats really the difference to me.

No, Simms wasn't a great player - great as in consistent pro-bowler, gaudy numbers - but he was exactly the leader that team needed, and he could make teams pay if they loaded up too hard to stop the run. It's also worth remembering that Simms never played with even a very good WR; the best he had was always mediocre (McConkey, Ingram, etc.). As you said, he was mentally tough, wasn't bothered by the weather or the NY spotlight, and was happy to play within himself and within the system as long as it led to wins. You can sign me up for that from Sanchez right now.

[Klecko73isGod]

*Any random WC-type QB considered good at one point.*

I'm going with a smaller Phil Rivers with less friendly weather and wind conditions.

And without the faggoty whining.

[#27TheDominator]

No, Simms wasn't a great player - great as in consistent pro-bowler, gaudy numbers - but he was exactly the leader that team needed, and he could make teams pay if they loaded up too hard to stop the run. It's also worth remembering that Simms never played with even a very good WR; the best he had was always mediocre (McConkey, Ingram, etc.). As you said, he was mentally tough, wasn't bothered by the weather or the NY spotlight, and was happy to play within himself and within the system as long as it led to wins. You can sign me up for that from Sanchez right now.

Maybe the WRs weren't "very good" because of the QBs and the offense that they ran. They certainly invested enough draft picks in them and don't forget that he had Bavaro. That is a pretty nice security blanket right there.

[SenorGato]

And without the faggoty whining.

There's no such thing as a top tier QB who doesn't do faggoty whining anymore. Sanchez will have to learn.

[Jetsfan80]

There's no such thing as a top tier QB who doesn't do faggoty whining anymore.

Peyton Manning

Drew Brees

Aaron Rodgers

Matt Ryan

Michael Vick

I don't recall "faggoty whining" coming from the above.

[SenorGato]

Peyton Manning

Drew Brees

Aaron Rodgers

Matt Ryan

Michael Vick

I don't recall "faggoty whining" coming from the above.

Matt Ryan's too much of a n00b...last year was only his 3rd season and it was following a mediocre one...Rodgers too is just getting his name established...Vick is still trying to convince people that he's a nice guy...but you've never caught Manning or Brees doing it? I honestly don't think there's a bigger whiner at QB than Peyton, and I'll still spend all day saying he's the best QB in football (even with the dome).

[Doggin94it]

Maybe the WRs weren't "very good" because of the QBs and the offense that they ran. They certainly invested enough draft picks in them and don't forget that he had Bavaro. That is a pretty nice security blanket right there.

Really? Come on now. Bavaro was a hell of a tight end, but outside of him, the Giants had almost nobody catching passes. Over the course of Simms' career, here's who he threw to:

Mark Ingram

Dave Meggett

Ed McCaffery (in his rookie year - probably the best raw talent of all the Giants' receivers during Simms' tenure, which is saying something)

Stephen Baker

Odessa Turner

Lionel Manuel

Phil McConkey

Stacy Robinson

Bobby Johnson

Byron Williams

Ernest Gray

Johhny Perkins

Gary Shirk

Tom Mullady

Mike Friede

Also TE's Howard Cross and Zeke Mowatt, to go with Bavaro

Could you tell me which of those immortals had their talent wasted by Simms?

[Jetsfan80]

Rodgers too is just getting his name established

I disagree. Its fair to say he's an elite quarterback. He's been in the league 6 years, been a starter for 3, and has the numbers, and now the ring, to prove it.

I think you may simply be trying to make Rivers look better here because he's your boy. While that's understandable, I'd say he's in elite company when it comes to whining. That group includes Tom Brady and Jay Cutler.

[Klecko73isGod]

There's no such thing as a top tier QB who doesn't do faggoty whining anymore. Sanchez will have to learn.

Yes there is.

Rivers' whining is approaching legendary status. He's in Dan Marino's league when it comes to faggoty whining.

[Damaged89]

Matt Ryan's too much of a n00b...last year was only his 3rd season and it was following a mediocre one...Rodgers too is just getting his name established...Vick is still trying to convince people that he's a nice guy...but you've never caught Manning or Brees doing it? I honestly don't think there's a bigger whiner at QB than Peyton, and I'll still spend all day saying he's the best QB in football (even with the dome).

Manning's bitching has always seemed to me like it was directed at his teammates for not living up to his absurd anal retentive standards. Not like the Brady pouting because someone dared to lay a finger on him, or like Rivers' tantrums. Peyton would probably be the worst roommate ever.

[JoeWillie]

Rivers is not only a whiney biotch, but he's overrated as a QB, to boot.

[slats]

He was certainly on target in that SB game, but I dont think Id ever consider him elite. When you thought of the Giants did you ever think Simms? I didnt. You might think of LT and Parcells. Offensively you thought of a running attack with Joe Morris, Mo Carthon, OJ Anderson, etc... In that respect you could make the comparison between Sanchez and Simms right now. With the Jets you think of defense and the coach and a run first gameplan on offense. Both guys were not very accurate and both liked to take chances and throw the ball far (though Simms' era was more tolerant of the chance pass and interception). Simms also could handle the worst of the weather in the stadium.

But I never considered Simms to be great or anything like that. He probably had a 3 year window in the mid 80s around the Super Bowl run where he was a borderline PB player, but Id imagine that there were always alot of other players to take over him in the same timeframe. Statistically I doubt there was much of a difference between the Kenny O early years and the Simms "high level" years. Mentally Simms was far better and handled adversity well while O'Brien could not. Simms was on the better team and played in the playoffs pretty often. Thats really the difference to me.

I think you sorta made Doggin's point.

If Sanchez develops into a consistent game manager who can still pull end-game heroics when needed, I'll think we'll all be really pleased.

The other thing the two players have in common is their head coach's philosophy. I don't think either Bill Parcells or Rex Ryan would open up the offense like the Colts or Patriots, even if they had a Manning or a Brady. These are defensive-minded, grind it out coaches. Sanchez needs to be mentally tough and resilient just to play that style every week - handing the ball off all game, until the final few minutes when he's asked to push the ball downfield in a hurry. That's not an easy way to play QB.

[T0mShane]

Simms was the definition of a low-impact game manager. When the Giants were winning, Simms was throwing for, maybe, 150-180 ypg. I think we're hoping Sanchez is more than that.

[Doggin94it]

I think you sorta made Doggin's point.

If Sanchez develops into a consistent game manager who can still pull end-game heroics when needed, I'll think we'll all be really pleased.

Exactly. I mean hell, if he develops into more than that, I'll certainly take it. But if he "just" turns into a Simms type (and yes, that means significantly increasing his accuracy over the next few years), I'll be very happy with both the player and the pick.