Is Bowles a Safe Bet to Fix Pryor?

[Villain The Foe]

EDIT 

[legler82]

You are a better talent evaluator than John Idzik. All the draft sites had Clinton-Dix rated ahead of Pryor literally all of them.

Let Allen play FS next season and Pryor can compete with Landry and Jarret for SS job.

I'd also like to see us give gay Kerry another shot.

 

I think they were rated about the same.  The distinction was in their style of play Pryor projected as more of an in the box SS while Clinton-Dix was an obvious rangy coverage FS.  Since they were relatively close team need should have dictated which one to draft.  

 

I don't think Allen can play FS any better than Pryor.  In fact, forced to make the choice I would put Pryor back there ahead of Allen.  Allen has very good man coverage skills for a safety but diagnosing plays in space from the deep half of the field is a different skill set all together.  At least Pryor has some experience doing it while Allen is just a few years removed from being a hybrid LB.

[Villain The Foe]

Retard

You're right 

 

http://www.newyorkjets.com/videos/videos/Mays-Gilchrist-a-Versatile-Safety/be482792-d1c1-4178-9e97-7e021bb14f63

[jetsrebirth]

No one remembers that because he never said it.  Don't succumb to the elementary mind tricks of the ilk.

 

 

 

Bowels and Macc were so terrified of trying to win with the roster that Idzik burdened Rex with that they spent more money on DB's than any team ever has.

 

The last time we had anywhere near the backfield we currently have this was the #1 defense in the league.  Lets hope Bowles, who thankfully runs a very similar system to Rex, can produce similar results.

 

Oh but he most certainly did, and he even credited himself for Suggs success in the process. 

 

Lets not forget that Rex told us before the season last year that "This was the team I have always wanted to coach" and Woody said part of the reason Rex was fired was he was in on every single personnel decision.

 

Lets not let man crushes get in the way with facts.

[Pac]

Oh but he most certainly did, and he even credited himself for Suggs success in the process. 

 

Lets not forget that Rex told us before the season last year that "This was the team I have always wanted to coach" and Woody said part of the reason Rex was fired was he was in on every single personnel decision.

 

Lets not let man crushes get in the way with facts.

 

Actually the quote was something along the lines of "if we can't turn him into something no one can"...  it appears he was correct.

 

And by this is the team I have always wanted to coach he meant the NY Jets...  not the collection of riff raff John Idzik gave him.  But I'm supposed to believe last year Rex said "ignore Revis' agents, cut Cromartie, and get me Dimitri Patterson".

 

Bowles and Macc are getting huge praise for basically re-constructing Rex' ideal roster.

[JetBlue]

He played like a rookie... What is this new idea that rookies play like HOFers?

 

It hurts because we passed on other productive players to take him but I totally agree with you.  Pryor looked lost out there, playing out of position and again as a rookie getting used to the speed of the game.  With a full year under his belt and better coaching, surrounded by better players I expect will play alot better as well. 

[JetsFanInDenver]

I still wonder what impact that concussion had on his psyche. He seemed to be doing so well in the few days of training camp before that. After that he seemed to slow down a quite a bit after he came back.

 

In an era when healthy players are leaving the game out of concerns for head injury issues I wonder if Pryor can ever be that player the JETS drafted for. He could still make comeback and the coaching staff could work on his smarts and improve technique for the position he plays and he can still make solid contributions in games. But i am really not going to hold out hope for the enforcer, the hard hitting guy I was expecting to  see.

[ylekram]

Oh but he most certainly did, and he even credited himself for Suggs success in the process. 

 

Lets not forget that Rex told us before the season last year that "This was the team I have always wanted to coach" and Woody said part of the reason Rex was fired was he was in on every single personnel decision.

 

Lets not let man crushes get in the way with facts.

this post is just chock full of facts

[Freemanm]

So it was poor cornerback play that led to Pryor missing fifteen tackles and taking poor pursuit angles?

Again, poor pursuit angles indicates a lack of teaching, IMHO. Still, I see Pryor more as almost like a fifth linebacker - sort of like what Victor Green used to be (although I will never forgive Green for blowing coverage in the AFCG in 98, which led to the Broncos first TD in that game).

Let Peyor get in the box and kick peoples' asses. That's what he did in college, and it wasnt a secret that that's what he did best when Idziot draft him.

[legler82]

Again, poor pursuit angles indicates a lack of teaching, IMHO. Still, I see Pryor more as almost like a fifth linebacker - sort of like what Victor Green used to be (although I will never forgive Green for blowing coverage in the AFCG in 98, which led to the Broncos first TD in that game).

Let Peyor get in the box and kick peoples' asses. That's what he did in college, and it wasnt a secret that that's what he did best when Idziot draft him.

 

In college he kicked people's asses in the open field.

[Gas2No99]

I think hell be worse then Kyle Wilson. 

 

Calvin Pryor is not a big guy with a similar build as Kyle Wilson. Thats a problem when you have to cover Te/WR these days that are all huge. All those WR/TE that are 6'3 and up are also much faster then him. He is simply not that good of an athlete. People are forgetting him getting run over by Brandon Oliver? 

 

 

Exactly. People are making too much of this. Our Safeties were interchangeable. He was not out of position. In todays NFL he is going to have to play in coverage a TON. Get used to it. 

 

As far as the general topic goes if Bowles can fix him that would be great. We expected Rex to Fix gholston as well but that didn't happen.  All we can ask for is a legit competition where the best person wins and a guy isn't forced into the lineup simply bc he was drafted high. 

 

These were the kind of draft picks that got everyone fired - Deservedly so.

This is a very sound & articulate argument to convince me that I should have a SHORTER amount of patience for Pryor to produce results. Fair enough, I'll bite. I believe we give Millner at least another 1-2 years before jumping ship in him.

[win4ever]

I don't know how much we can take away from last year, because our CB play was horrendous with guys being beat left and right with no talent whatsoever.  He made some horrible plays for sure, but DBs usually have the toughest transition in the NFL, and really depends on what the guys around him can do.   

 

I think a good example is Kenny Vacarro.  His rookie year, he was regarded as the best safety in that rookie class, and the Saints surprisingly were a strong team against the pass.  They used blitzes, masks and surprisingly good CB play to be a good team vs. the pass.  The CB play went down the drain last year, and Vacarro went right down with them, and I don't think there was any major injuries for him.  I doubt he got worse in his second year somehow and forgot how to play.  At one point, I believe he was benched as well.  How did he go from one of the most promising safety rookies to benched?  The CB play and a porous defense.  When you CBs can't stop a nosebleed, the safeties have to cheat more, and they are more likely to be caught out of position.  

 

Another example would be Jarius Byrd.  Remember how he used to haunt us at safety? Make plays left and right?  The Bills had a good secondary, and a good DLine so he had more time to react and chase after balls.  He goes to the Saints and their terrible corners, and he fell off the map.  

 

I wasn't a fan of the pick, I thought we had other needs (WR mainly) but I'm not sure we can write him off based on just last year, because that was a situation where most safeties were going to fail.  This year would be a good litmus test for him, because of the talent that surrounds him.  

[dbatesman]

Bowles and Macc are getting huge praise for basically re-constructing Rex' ideal roster.

When you think about it, Rex is the one who brought Revis back.

[Villain The Foe]

Actually the quote was something along the lines of "if we can't turn him into something no one can"...  it appears he was correct.

 

And by this is the team I have always wanted to coach he meant the NY Jets...  not the collection of riff raff John Idzik gave him.  But I'm supposed to believe last year Rex said "ignore Revis' agents, cut Cromartie, and get me Dimitri Patterson".

 

Bowles and Macc are getting huge praise for basically re-constructing Rex' ideal roster.

This is most likely true, however, Rex coaching on the field when under pressure was terrible. When we had the lead we were okay. When we had to come from behind or do 2nd half adjustments Rex Ryan had to be arguably the worst in the league at doing so. 

 

Bowles and Mac are getting huge praise for reconstructing a defense and providing a top 5 WR but I think what will separate Bowles at least will be his ability to adjust during the game. He's he's able to do that the praise he'll get will be historic. 

[AFJF]

Again, poor pursuit angles indicates a lack of teaching, IMHO. Still, I see Pryor more as almost like a fifth linebacker - sort of like what Victor Green used to be (although I will never forgive Green for blowing coverage in the AFCG in 98, which led to the Broncos first TD in that game).

Let Peyor get in the box and kick peoples' asses. That's what he did in college, and it wasnt a secret that that's what he did best when Idziot draft him.

 

We can agree to disagree, but it is my belief that a first round NFL draft pick coming out of a major college program should not need somebody to explain a pursuit angles at that point.  It should be second nature.   

[jetsrebirth]

this post is just chock full of facts

 

Its amazing how "Jets fans" will vigorously defend the HC of the Buffalo Bills.

[ylekram]

Its amazing how "Jets fans" will vigorously defend the HC of the Buffalo Bills.

whats also amazing is how message board posters turn fiction into facts

[jetsrebirth]

whats also amazing is how message board posters turn fiction into facts

 

hmmmm, I remember the facts very clearly. I also very clearly remember an interview with Tannebaum on WFAN when discussing the hiring of Rex, where Tanny said that a big factor in the hiring of Rex was how Rex told Woody and Tanny that he had no doubts that he would turn Gholston into a star, and that really excited Woody.

 

I think the Rex lovers have a very bad tendency to let facts melt away like butter in the face of Rex's swagger.

[ylekram]

hmmmm, I remember the facts very clearly. I also very clearly remember an interview with Tannebaum on WFAN when discussing the hiring of Rex, where Tanny said that a big factor in the hiring of Rex was how Rex told Woody and Tanny that he had no doubts that he would turn Gholston into a star, and that really excited Woody.

 

I think the Rex lovers have a very bad tendency to let facts melt away like butter in the face of Rex's swagger.

you have already been corrected on this and yet still continue

[AFJF]

hmmmm, I remember the facts very clearly. I also very clearly remember an interview with Tannebaum on WFAN when discussing the hiring of Rex, where Tanny said that a big factor in the hiring of Rex was how Rex told Woody and Tanny that he had no doubts that he would turn Gholston into a star, and that really excited Woody.

 

I think the Rex lovers have a very bad tendency to let facts melt away like butter in the face of Rex's swagger.

 

General Managers tend to say very nice things about newly hired head coaches.  Sometimes those things don't turn out as they had hoped.

[Savage69]

This is most likely true, however, Rex coaching on the field when under pressure was terrible. When we had the lead we were okay. When we had to come from behind or do 2nd half adjustments Rex Ryan had to be arguably the worst in the league at doing so. 

 

Bowles and Mac are getting huge praise for reconstructing a defense and providing a top 5 WR but I think what will separate Bowles at least will be his ability to adjust during the game. He's he's able to do that the praise he'll get will be historic. 

In the 2010 Steeler AFCCG loss he got blamed for the first half offensive deficient so the shut out of Pitt in the 2nd half was due to Pettine making adjustments I suppose?? 

[AFJF]

In the 2010 Steeler AFCCG loss he got blamed for the first half offensive deficient so the shut out of Pitt in the 2nd half was due to Pettine making adjustments I suppose?? 

 

Pettine was responsible for all of the good...Rex the bad. That's why the Browns were such a juggernaut this season.  His in-game adjustments and no-nonsense attitude snapped that locker room into shape and created the most dedicated bunch of football players in the league....right?

[#27TheDominator]

Rex was great at adjustments.  Sure they sucked at coming from behind, but that was because they had no offense to speak of.  That is what you blame on Rex.  Just like you should blame Rex for that sh*tty Clemson QB and Scottie McKnight, not John Connor who was a serviceable 5th rounder or William Campbell who was cut while Rex was with the Jets and signed with Buffalo before 

[Pac]

Pettine was responsible for all of the good...Rex the bad. That's why the Browns were such a juggernaut this season.  His in-game adjustments and no-nonsense attitude snapped that locker room into shape and created the most dedicated bunch of football players in the league....right?

 

The way he developed Hoyer and Johnny White Horse was a sight to behold.  Textbook.

[AFJF]

The way he developed Hoyer and Johnny White Horse was a sight to behold.  Textbook.

 

Once his star QB is out of rehab and his stud receiver gets back from his drug policy violation, they're gonna' go on a speaking tour about how Pettine's no-nonsense attitude that commanded dedication and respect changed their lives. 

 

BTW...anybody else hear the rumor that Pettine's QB who couldn't practice last year because he was hung over won't be playing at all this season?  Saw a blurb but not sure if it's just speculation or not.

[Villain The Foe]

In the 2010 Steeler AFCCG loss he got blamed for the first half offensive deficient so the shut out of Pitt in the 2nd half was due to Pettine making adjustments I suppose?? 

Rex was the coach for 6 years. Having to go back 6 years for an example I feel supports my position. Im not saying that it has never happened, im saying that he was arguably the worst at it. 

[Savage69]

Rex was the coach for 6 years. Having to go back 6 years for an example I feel supports my position. Im not saying that it has never happened, im saying that he was arguably the worst at it. 

To anyone that hates Rex he was always the worst at anything..

[Villain The Foe]

To anyone that hates Rex he was always the worst at anything..

I dont hate Rex, he is who he is. 

 

Thats a happy ass by the way! lol

[Larz]

ith the corners locked up and ready to go, the biggest question mark in the Jets secondary becomes second year safety Calvin Pryor.  A first round pick out of Louisville last season, the 18th overall selection struggled for much of the year in coverage while also leading the team in missed tackles with fifteen.

 

 

 

According to NFL statistical website PFF.com, of the six rookie safeties who took part in at least 25% of their teams defensive plays, Bucannon graded out a distant sixth, behind Tre Boston of Carolina (5.6), Pryor (3.3), Bears rookie Brock Vereen (-0.8), Pierre Warren of the Saints (-1.5), Green Bay’s HaHa Clinton-Dix (-2.4) and then there was Bucannon (-12.4).

 

 

huh ?   I think 2nd out of 6 is pretty good.  rookies gonna rookie

[AFJF]

ith the corners locked up and ready to go, the biggest question mark in the Jets secondary becomes second year safety Calvin Pryor.  A first round pick out of Louisville last season, the 18th overall selection struggled for much of the year in coverage while also leading the team in missed tackles with fifteen.

 

 

 

According to NFL statistical website PFF.com, of the six rookie safeties who took part in at least 25% of their teams defensive plays, Bucannon graded out a distant sixth, behind Tre Boston of Carolina (5.6), Pryor (3.3), Bears rookie Brock Vereen (-0.8), Pierre Warren of the Saints (-1.5), Green Bay’s HaHa Clinton-Dix (-2.4) and then there was Bucannon (-12.4).

 

 

huh ?   I think 2nd out of 6 is pretty good.  rookies gonna rookie

 

He was better than a lot of people give him credit for, but finishing second of six in a group with three or four guys who were anywhere from meh to horrible isn't  a whole lot to get excited about.  

 

I don't think he'll ever be great, but if he can clean up his tackling he'll be a very good player.

[Larz]

He was better than a lot of people give him credit for, but finishing second of six in a group with three or four guys who were anywhere from meh to horrible isn't  a whole lot to get excited about.  

 

I don't think he'll ever be great, but if he can clean up his tackling he'll be a very good player.

 

they were rookies who played a lot.  He should have finished first based on his draft status, but buccanon came right after him and was awful.  He also had garbage around him.  

 

I think he needs to forget about lighting guys up and just get them down.  If the opportunity presents itself, ok shake a filling loose.  Otherwise take the correct angle and get him down

 

I would think he will be basically a LB'er now, less centerfielder which can only help him

[AFJF]

they were rookies who played a lot.  He should have finished first based on his draft status, but buccanon came right after him and was awful.  He also had garbage around him.  

 

I think he needs to forget about lighting guys up and just get them down.  If the opportunity presents itself, ok shake a filling loose.  Otherwise take the correct angle and get him down

 

I would think he will be basically a LB'er now, less centerfielder which can only help him

 

This was the premise of the article.  I was looking at a few things on safeties and was shocked when I saw that Bowles' first round rookie was significantly worse than Pryor.  I thought the question about Bowles being the right guy to fix him based on Bucannon's struggles was a valid one.  I agree with what you're saying though...if he cleans up his game a little bit and focuses on the basics, he'll be a much better player.

[jetsrebirth]

you have already been corrected on this and yet still continue

 

I have? Must have missed that one.

[#27TheDominator]

He was better than a lot of people give him credit for, but finishing second of six in a group with three or four guys who were anywhere from meh to horrible isn't  a whole lot to get excited about.  

 

I don't think he'll ever be great, but if he can clean up his tackling he'll be a very good player.

 

I agree, but isn't the positive value from PFF supposed to indicate "good"? 

[AFJF]

I agree, but isn't the positive value from PFF supposed to indicate "good"? 

 

It all depends on how you interpret PFF ratings.  Some people say that PFF ratings are useless but I believe that's based on the fact that a lot of folks like the idea of sounding like an expert on  a player after watching them make a few plays on sportscenter and reading a scouting report.  I always say I'm not 100% sold on PFF, but after watching film on a few specific players over the past few weeks and then looking at their PFF rating, they're clearly taking the time to watch individuals perform. 

 

I mentioned Skrine earlier this week because I watched him for every snap in two games...one against Atlanta and one against Tenn.  Against Atlanta, he played great.  Matching up against White and Jones, he broke up at least one pass, was solid in wrapping up after the catch and preventing YAC, was only beaten badly one time and Matt Ryan got rid of the ball under pressure before seeing Skrine got smoked deep. 

 

Against Tennessee he was terrible.  Beaten for two long touchdowns and bit hard on a pump fake that would have been a third TD if the pass hadn't bee overthrown.  When I took what I'd seen and compared it to PFF, Atlanta was rated as one of his best games of the season, and Tennessee was one of his worst.  I find it hard to believe that would be a coincidence.

 

I'll explain this as best I can as a guy who uses PFF but doesn't know it inside and out.

 

They start their ratings at "0" with that being an average score.  Since a score of anywhere from -1.0-+1.0 doesn't deviate far from the starting point, they consider than to be an "average" grade.  Since ratings are added up over the course of a season, you can have a player who rates on the positive side of zero enough times that his score at the end of the season could be a solid score like Pryors +3.3, which essentially means that with enough "average" scores, you can compile an "above average" grade.

 

That's why I also like to look at the number of positive grades vs. the number of negative grades.  If you have a D-lineman who dominates a scrub O-lineman and gets himself a +7.5, that can wipe out several poor/average performances against upper echelon guys where the same guy is earning average or below average grades.

 

Pryor earned three positive grades and only one negative all season. Of his positives, one was against the Raiders with a rookie QB, and the other was against the Titans who were  horrible.  The third was good to see because it was against New England.  His negative was -2.7 against the Lions in a game where he was pulled after just 26 snaps. 

 

Again, people say that PFF ratings are meaningless and they have no idea what they're looking at. If that's the case, what an amazing coincidence it is that the first time Pryor was pulled by the coaching staff was when he was playing his worst rated game of the season.  Full disclosure, it's possible he was hurt and I didn't see it.  I missed the first half of that game because I was at Fenway for Jeter's last game.  Went across the street to watch the second half once Jeter was pulled.

 

So with twelve "average" grades as a rookie, I think Pryor was better than a lot of people give him credit for, and that's definitely a product of the number of big plays defenses made against the Jets because of his poor tackling.  Those things get magnified when the team is losing and he's not making all the big hits and forced fumbles we were expecting.

 

BTW...Bucannon had seven negative grades, eight average and one positive.