dbatesman Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Was Greene really worth using their 4th and 7th round picks to trade up for when he is a limited back 2 down back who cant break a long one or catch the ball out of the backfield? That was a case of overvaluing the player, not the position. They had a first-round grade on Greene and still waited until the 3rd to grab him. Otherwise Tannenbaum's never drafted a back earlier than the 4th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTJ06 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 That was a case of overvaluing the player, not the position. They had a first-round grade on Greene and still waited until the 3rd to grab him. Otherwise Tannenbaum's never drafted a back earlier than the 4th. Ah got it. Doesnt give you to much confidence in our scouting department that they had a first round grade on him. I recall them saying they thought he was the best RB in the draft. He is going into his contract year so he better up his level of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashmouth Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 A few runningbacks that will be there in round 2 that will be good i believe... Doug Martin-Boise State Lamichael James-Oregon Lamar Miller-Miami (Fla.) David Wilson-Virginia Tech I would love the giants to get Doug Martin.. He's 5"9 220 pounds and is a bowling ball just like MJD/Ray Rice The kid is a smart instinctive back and runs hard I have no doubt the Giants will get what they need and the Jets will draft a load of fail as usual. The giants will continue to draft solid skill players to surround their QB abd the Jets will be monitoring the prisons and youtube for WR prospects Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New York Mick Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Is this guy entering the draft? Wow. Woodhead 2.0? He looked good against ND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbatesman Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Ah got it. Doesnt give you to much confidence in our scouting department that they had a first round grade on him. I recall them saying they thought he was the best RB in the draft. He is going into his contract year so he better up his level of play. Yeah, using Greene as an example of Tannenbaum's ability to properly gauge value is sort of a good news/bad news thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornJetsFan1983 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Greene sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYGiantFan10 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 i hope wherever lamichael james lands its a offense that can really utilize him. hes sproles 2.0 in my opinion with better ground game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoicsentry Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Woodhead 2.0? He looked good against ND. Looks bigger and tougher than Woodhead but yeah it's the speed and lateral agility I'm watching there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hopefully Martin or Wilson if we get a RB in the 2nd. I don't think Miller is going to be that good and I don't think James is anything more then a ST player, he might come in for 3rd and long but not much else on offense so he's not worth a 2nd round pick. Boom I was going to say the exact same thing. I've been split on Martin and Wilson as both are so different in their running styles, I think both will be extremely successful in the NFL. It's like comparing Ray Rice to a young LT. Both will get the job done. But, for our team, and what we want to do with the "Smashmouth" I'm leaning toward Martin, we need to add more bulk to our RB stable. Doug Martin has terrific leg drive and is a little bowling ball at (5'9 220). He's a 3-down back who can block, catch, and lower his shoulder. David Wilson (5'10, 205) has amazing balance, some wiggle and hands. But as it stands, McKnight and Powell are both listed at 5'10, 205. We don't need a stable of clones. Let Powell backup Greene, who backs up Doug Martin. And put McKnight out there in the slot/cutesy playmaker role where his hands and speed can upset defenses and keep the backers off the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShow Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 I'm pretty sure Curtis Martin only had 4 runs over 20 yards in 2004, when he led the league in rushing yards, despite 120 more opportunities. His longest run all season was 25 yards (that one coming in a game against Miami's #31 ranked rush defense, where Jordan had the same yards and TDs on fewer carries). He also averaged barely more catches per game than Martin even though he was the team's 3rd down back (unlike Greene, who came out for LT on most 3rd downs). Also it was behind a QB who - despite his obvious flaws - completed 2/3 of his passes and took far fewer sacks (unlike Sanchez) and wouldn't often make totally inaccurate throws in the flat or 4 yards downfield the way Sanchez does. I only heard a scarce few complaints back then. The lack of 100-yard games is more a function of a lack of 20-carry games than anything else. There aren't too many RBs that put up 100-yard games when they're usually getting only 10-16 carries. Maybe if the QB, WRs, and special teams didn't piss away possessions like it was the intended result he'd have carried the ball more and, by extension, had more 100 yard games. Lost in all your complaints, also, is that (just like Martin) Greene held onto the ball like no starter in the NFL last year. 1 fumble, 0 fumbles lost all season. I do agree on adding another back if they aren't going to use McKnight or Powell on 3rd downs. Forget LT, even if he wanted to come back. He's still got good hands, knows how to pick up blitzes, and does (or used to) garner locker room respect. But he's simply too old and slow to be used much and that will not improve in 2012. Greene is fine to use - and use regularly - if he has someone else complementing him who would actually make defenders chase someone more than once or twice a season. Greene's not going to make anyone forget Earl Campbell in this lifetime, but as long as the team isn't killing its cap (further) by throwing insane dollars at him his roster spot is and should be safe. as always Sperm, your the hardest person to argue with here. but to compare him to martin is insane, ok martin only had 4 carries of 20 plus yards "The season he lead the nfl in rushing". Greene did NOT. He's average at best when looking at his stats. and watching greene he seems worse than average. I can't see anyone feeling comfortable when it's 3rd n 1 and were in goal line with greene in the back field. I dont know whats happened to him, in 09 there was few backs in the league I'd rather have at that moment. now he's one of the last. in 09 he had 100 less carries and had 5 runs of 20+ yards. he was used sparingly then. he was our Joe McNight. he's not an every down back. we need one. plain and simple. Mcnight can be our change of pace back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTJ06 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Boom I was going to say the exact same thing. I've been split on Martin and Wilson as both are so different in their running styles, I think both will be extremely successful in the NFL. It's like comparing Ray Rice to a young LT. Both will get the job done. But, for our team, and what we want to do with the "Smashmouth" I'm leaning toward Martin, we need to add more bulk to our RB stable. Doug Martin has terrific leg drive and is a little bowling ball at (5'9 220). He's a 3-down back who can block, catch, and lower his shoulder. David Wilson (5'10, 205) has amazing balance, some wiggle and hands. But as it stands, McKnight and Powell are both listed at 5'10, 205. We don't need a stable of clones. Let Powell backup Greene, who backs up Doug Martin. And put McKnight out there in the slot/cutesy playmaker role where his hands and speed can upset defenses and keep the backers off the line. Do either of these backs have breakaway ability? It seems to me that there is a perception that ground and pound is 4 yards and a cloud of dust. I look at a team like Houston as having a great running game and they have 2 guys who can ground and pound for short yardage, but also have the ability to take it the distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYGiantFan10 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Do either of these backs have breakaway ability? It seems to me that there is a perception that ground and pound is 4 yards and a cloud of dust. I look at a team like Houston as having a great running game and they have 2 guys who can ground and pound for short yardage, but also have the ability to take it the distance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzE8BfoIHQI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTJ06 Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 as always Sperm, your the hardest person to argue with here. but to compare him to martin is insane, ok martin only had 4 carries of 20 plus yards "The season he lead the nfl in rushing". Greene did NOT. He's average at best when looking at his stats. and watching greene he seems worse than average. I can't see anyone feeling comfortable when it's 3rd n 1 and were in goal line with greene in the back field. I dont know whats happened to him, in 09 there was few backs in the league I'd rather have at that moment. now he's one of the last. in 09 he had 100 less carries and had 5 runs of 20+ yards. he was used sparingly then. he was our Joe McNight. he's not an every down back. we need one. plain and simple. Mcnight can be our change of pace back. At the age of 31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 as always Sperm, your the hardest person to argue with here. but to compare him to martin is insane, ok martin only had 4 carries of 20 plus yards "The season he lead the nfl in rushing". Greene did NOT. He's average at best when looking at his stats. and watching greene he seems worse than average. I can't see anyone feeling comfortable when it's 3rd n 1 and were in goal line with greene in the back field. I dont know whats happened to him, in 09 there was few backs in the league I'd rather have at that moment. now he's one of the last. in 09 he had 100 less carries and had 5 runs of 20+ yards. he was used sparingly then. he was our Joe McNight. he's not an every down back. we need one. plain and simple. Mcnight can be our change of pace back. Well, Greene also didn't have nearly as good of a QB or nearly as good blocking or nearly as many carries or nearly as many stat-padding 3rd & long draw plays (that still result in punts). Those kinds of things factor into it. I'm comparing Martin's best season with criteria that you use to formulate your "total failure" type opinion. We do not need an every down back. RBBC is the gold standard of success for years and years. I mean, if you want a superbowl winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Doug Martin passed Lamar Miller for me as the guy who would work best for the Jets through an earlier draft pick. Running style reminds me of a younger Thomas Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Doug Martin passed Lamar Miller for me as the guy who would work best for the Jets through an earlier draft pick. Running style reminds me of a younger Thomas Jones. What about Thomas Jones's running style would you want a RB to emulate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peebag Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Is this guy entering the draft? Wow. Is he related to Danny Woodhead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 What about Thomas Jones's running style would you want a RB to emulate? Hopefully less dancing, more bear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New York Mick Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Do either of these backs have breakaway ability? It seems to me that there is a perception that ground and pound is 4 yards and a cloud of dust. I look at a team like Houston as having a great running game and they have 2 guys who can ground and pound for short yardage, but also have the ability to take it the distance. Wilson is fast as **** and cuts on a dime, Martin has average RB speed more then Greene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sperm Edwards Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hopefully less dancing, more bear. I'd be ok with bringing Jones back for a season just to smack Holmes around a little. You know, give him the Cedric Benson treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugg Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 So we're a Ground and Pound team and getting a good all around back is a bad Idea ? I see passing teams load up with WR's all the time is it such a bad Idea graound and pound teams load up with really good RB's ?? I mean if this is going to be our identity why not have fresh backs to throw at teams ?? Remember our first run in the playoffs 2 years ago ? We did well because we had a fresh Shonn Greene to throw at teams in the playoffs when Thomas Jones ran out of steam and so why not have that same situation ? Anyone who thinks McKnight or Powell is the answer and pounding Greene all year with the possibility of injury is crazy IMO. Greene goes down then what ? Not necessarily a bad idea, simply not as much as priority as other spots. And lavishing serious cap room on another back when Greene is still quite servicable and figuring to take 10-15 carries a game seems like a misapporpriation of cap room. Now if in the early rounds the braintrust decides they cannot pass on a back, fine. If a reasonable free agent to take LT's spot emerges, great. But spending big money on a free agent back is so 1995. It simply isn't how anyone gets a back any more.The game has changed, feature backs are dinosaurs. Peyton Hillis and Brandon Jacobs are about to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villain_the_foe Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Everyone is talking about the O-line, a #2 WR, a safety.... The list goes on and on, Everyone also says with Tony SOPRANO now our Offensive coordinator that were going back to "Ground~n~Pound" and have no shot at Manning because of this. If all of this is true, who the HECK! is running the ball? Am I the only one that can see that shonn greene is not the RB we all thought he was in 2009. he looked great then when he got a few carries a game. but since he's gotten the majority of the carries he's looked slow and clumsy. He was great as a Change of pace back, but as the starter, there is nothing special about him, He had 4 runs of over 20 yards last year, Two!! 100 yard games! he averaged less than 2 catches a game, what kind of safety valve is that for our (Poor) Quarterback. in 09 he was the guy u wanted in there when it was 3rd and 1, or 4th and 1. hell even 3rd n 2! he'd pound it in there. Now he gets touched and falls down. I don't know whats happened to him, but we need a change at running back. I was a big fan of greene for a while. but after this year I'm done with him. Hopefully we get another back, Peyton Hillis or someone of that nature, and if so there's not reason to Keep Greene around. he's not quick, he can't catch, and he can't help protect the quarterback. he was good at one thing! that was lowering his shoulders and running threw people. after 2 short years, those days are over! sorry I got on a roll and couldn't shut up! In short! Shonn Greene Needs to be let go! and we need another running back! so Collage fanatics! who's the good RB's out there that might be available at 16 or in the 2nd round. anyone special? any other RB's that we might have a shot at in FA? The way you put it makes total sense, however, the way it actually happened doesnt make this sensible. The entire offense was terrible and not being able to ever throw/complete deep passes down field because of the play itself or the lack of protection allowed for defenses to stack the box consistently. I wouldnt have expected any running back to produce in this offense without having to break 2 and 3 tackles on every down just to get 5 yards. The blocking was terrible, the pass was non existent so you didnt have to commit anymore than what was needed for a WR which was simply one CB. Greene didnt have a great year, but when he looked promising this offense was also much better. The Jets had a bad season, it happens. Now I wouldnt mind drafting another RB not because Greene cant get it done, but if he gets hurt who's the next go to guy?....Tomlinson? We need to solidify that oline and create plays in the passing game that can move the chains. If we can do that I believe Greene will be able to get to the 2nd level of a defense, and if he does that then any Safety trying to keep him from breaking away I feel extremely sorry for because Greene can lay the wood once he gets some space to run. If we do draft a RB the earliest should be the 2nd rd, and im not 100% on that given that I have faith in Greene & McKnight. If we take a RB in the first round it'll be a mistake because we have too many glaring holes on both sides of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#27TheDominator Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Peyton Hillis had half the yards, half the TDs and .6 less yards per carry than Greene. The complaint was that Greene's style would get him hurt, but Hillis already got hurt, quit on his team and spits the ball up plenty regularly. The idea of bringing in other backs is fine, but whining that a guy who had 1,000 yards and was a huge part of several playoff wins wasn't worth a fourth and a seventh is ludicrous. We could have drafted two sh*tty players with those picks! What kind of sh*tty gm finds a thousand yard back with a fourth and seventh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jets62 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Agreed Green is no Walter Payton, but if you look around the league its littered with solid RBs who were picked in lower rounds or FA. I actually think RB is the least of our problems. As long as we have this pop-gun offense with a JV QB who cant throw more than 20 yrds. this team will win on defense&ball control. A big impact S & DE is a must for this team. Followed by RT& young WRs. But it looks like defense has to carry this team until we get another "franchise QB" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73andMe Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 No matter who the QB or RB is, current or new, you need good, effective and talented people to block for them or they're going nowhere. You need a great OL to pass protect and/or open holes. First downs and touchdowns win games! It's that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTJ06 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Peyton Hillis had half the yards, half the TDs and .6 less yards per carry than Greene. The complaint was that Greene's style would get him hurt, but Hillis already got hurt, quit on his team and spits the ball up plenty regularly. The idea of bringing in other backs is fine, but whining that a guy who had 1,000 yards and was a huge part of several playoff wins wasn't worth a fourth and a seventh is ludicrous. We could have drafted two sh*tty players with those picks! What kind of sh*tty gm finds a thousand yard back with a fourth and seventh? 3rd, 4th and 7th... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Wilson is fast as **** and cuts on a dime, Martin has average RB speed more then Greene. True, but McKnight is fast as ****, cuts on a dime, and has the same listed size as Wilson. What I like about Martin is his durability. At 220, he's going to offer more "Pound" than the lighter framed Wilson, and if you see his start-up speed, it is second to none. He might top off at 4.5, but he gets there before he hits the line of scrimmage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New York Mick Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 True, but McKnight is fast as ****, cuts on a dime, and has the same listed size as Wilson. What I like about Martin is his durability. At 220, he's going to offer more "Pound" than the lighter framed Wilson, and if you see his start-up speed, it is second to none. He might top off at 4.5, but he gets there before he hits the line of scrimmage. Martin would be a good choice I think he'll be a good NFL back and McKnight is now where near as good as Wilson IMO. Wilson is quicker faster cuts better has better vision and balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitonti Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 if we are talking draft there's some interesting mid/late names (as there are every year at RB position) some of my faves are: Bernard Pierce, Temple Vick Ballard; Miss St Cyrus Gray, Texas A&M LaMichael James, Oregon Ronnie Hillman, SDSU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Martin would be a good choice I think he'll be a good NFL back and McKnight is now where near as good as Wilson IMO. Wilson is quicker faster cuts better has better vision and balance. Wilson's balance is what stands out to me, and I've never really used that term when describing a running back. But this kid is UNREAL. It's like he defies the laws of physics on some of his runs; I've seen plays where he should be knocked on his a$$ and he pulls some Matrix sh*t to stay in bounds, or on his feet. But when it comes to foot speed, quickness, and moving like a bunny, I think McKnight is up there. I hope Joe blossoms this year and turns into something really special (or at the very least, start to replace what we lost in Leon Washington). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SenorGato Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I Wilson's balance is what stands out to me, and I've never really used that term when describing a running back. But this kid is UNREAL. It's like he defies the laws of physics on some of his runs; I've seen plays where he should be knocked on his a$$ and he pulls some Matrix sh*t to stay in bounds, or on his feet. But when it comes to foot speed, quickness, and moving like a bunny, I think McKnight is up there. I hope Joe blossoms this year and turns into something really special (or at the very least, start to replace what we lost in Leon Washington). I like McKnight next year too. Despite all the talk there's a few young guys on this roster still growing/finding themselves as players, and McKnight stands out amongst them. Even Powell...I mean they're RBs...throw them behind an OL, give them some holes, and you'll probably get 4 yards out of them. I'd bring in a RB, but only because it's smart to bring in a RB every offseason. Most I'd do is consider a RB early in the draft, but there's better routes to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 I I like McKnight next year too. Despite all the talk there's a few young guys on this roster still growing/finding themselves as players, and McKnight stands out amongst them. Even Powell...I mean they're RBs...throw them behind an OL, give them some holes, and you'll probably get 4 yards out of them. I'd bring in a RB, but only because it's smart to bring in a RB every offseason. Most I'd do is consider a RB early in the draft, but there's better routes to go. Yeah, wishing for a 2nd round RB is pretty pretentious given our glaring needs. But the fact is we need to bring in another hoss; Greene cant handle the starter's load with his running style, and I'd like to bring another bruiser to the mix. McKnight is a dancer, and Powell seems to prefer a foot race than lower a shoulder. I just want to see another wrecking ball come to town, which is why I'm pulling for Doug Martin. Unlike Matt, I think there's a SIGNIFICANT drop off in RB talent this year. If we are going to draft a rb, we need to do it early. Someone had suggested the possiblity of bringing in Ronnie Brown given his connections with our new staff. I'd love to see that happen... If we were to bring in a vet (Brown, Hillis, Lynch, etc) to revamp the running game, that would open the door to add to another position in the early rounds. We could get a KILLER wide-out in the second round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenseed4 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 if we are talking draft there's some interesting mid/late names (as there are every year at RB position) some of my faves are: Bernard Pierce, Temple Vick Ballard; Miss St Cyrus Gray, Texas A&M LaMichael James, Oregon Ronnie Hillman, SDSU I think there is a huge drop off in talent from the top 4-5 RBs this year. Including LaMichael James, I just don't see the NFL staying power in these guys. Pierce is built like Adrian Foster, but runs like Matt Mulligan, that might work against the weak competition he racked 27 TDs against, but not with the big boys. Ballard can prolly run a nice forty, but his speed comes on the back end. His start up is so slow, and he puts the ball on the ground so much that he wouldn't really be an asset in the NFL. Cyrus Gray is no better than anything on our roster right now. James is electrifying, but brittle. I don't know much about Hillman; I know SDSU is a small school program, and he put up a lot of production. Probably a Woodhead type, that we don't need on our roster given we have our scat-back in Joe McKnight. I don't know. I think Isaiah Pead is a talented back that will turn some heads in the league. I think he's a lot better than he's getting credit for. I would rank them: Trent Richardson David Wilson Doug Martin Lamar Miller Chris Polk Isaiah Pead LaMichael James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LottsMissingFingerTip Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Couple points: 1) Some of you are underestimating Shonn Greene (catching not included) 2) Some of you are underestimating Lamar Miller (kid is gonna be a stud) With that said... Sign Kevin Smith from Detroit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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