idziks first draft happy? or no?

[ylekram]

the jets picked up what I thought were some solid players in the first half of the draft.however, after looking at his last 3 picks, I have my doubts.here are the jets last 3 picks

5. oday aboushi ot Virginia

6. William cambell dt Michigan

7. tommy bohanon fb wake forest

 

I don't claim to be some kinda draft guru, but I never heard of these guys and they didn't seem to be a position of need

 

now check out the redskins last 3 draft picks and all were available when the jets picked and were a position of need

5. Brandon Jenkins olb/de florida st

6. bacarri Rambo fs Georgia

7. jawan Jamison rb Rutgers

 

these players I have heard about and wanted the jets to draft.

I don't know about you,but I was thinking that the redskins stole the last 3 players they drafted.hopefully I am wrong

[JollyGreenGiant]

I'm happy with the top half. At first I wasn't ecstatic about Richardson and Milliner but I do think they will fit in nicely. And Geno at the very worst brings excitement. But like you said with that kind of talent still available at OLB, RB, and S in the later rounds, I feel like we could have went a different route.

[Sperm Edwards]

I fully admit to yelling out loud, "What the f*ck? Are you f*cking kidding me? How many freaking DTs are we going to draft in round 1?" when we took Richardson.  I didn't know much about him then, and hope I'm made to look totally wrong by this guy collapsing pockets for years & years.  Thought the TE was the more likely pick - or even take horrible trade value like Buffalo did & move down with anyone possible & then take the TE - but we'll see.  At least it looks like there's a good chance he starts as a rookie, which wasn't the case with Coples.  We only get these guys on the cheap for 4 years maximum now, and I don't much like wasting 1 of them.

 

I liked the OL picks but yeah only 1 of them looks like he might be a starter so far.  Whatever -- if they end up 2nd-string, we certainly needed depth on the OL as well and it's wishful thinking to secure that depth only through UDFAs and veterans no one else wants even as their backups.

[stoicsentry]

the jets picked up what I thought were some solid players in the first half of the draft.however, after looking at his last 3 picks, I have my doubts.here are the jets last 3 picks

5. oday aboushi ot Virginia

6. William cambell dt Michigan

7. tommy bohanon fb wake forest

 

I don't claim to be some kinda draft guru, but I never heard of these guys and they didn't seem to be a position of need

 

now check out the redskins last 3 draft picks and all were available when the jets picked and were a position of need

5. Brandon Jenkins olb/de florida st

6. bacarri Rambo fs Georgia

7. jawan Jamison rb Rutgers

 

 

If you know the names of most 5th/6th/7th round picks then you're watching a bit too much college football IMO.

 

Anyway, talent is so sparse at that point of the draft that you really gotta take your chances on guys you believe in rather than looking for need.

 

I'm more irritated about the top half of the draft. There should have been an offensive playmaker somewhere in there.

[Sperm Edwards]

If you know the names of most 5th/6th/7th round picks then you're watching a bit too much college football IMO.

 

Anyway, talent is so sparse at that point of the draft that you really gotta take your chances on guys you believe in rather than looking for need.

 

I'm more irritated about the top half of the draft. There should have been an offensive playmaker somewhere in there.

 

They did draft a QB.  Given how we're used to the QB being Sanchez I can understand & forgive not thinking of the position as a playmaking one.  The 2 picks before the only way would have been to abandon their list & take a guy 10 slots lower because of "need" in a year where they're replacing most of the team.

[slats]

If you know the names of most 5th/6th/7th round picks then you're watching a bit too much college football IMO.

 

Anyway, talent is so sparse at that point of the draft that you really gotta take your chances on guys you believe in rather than looking for need.

 

I'm more irritated about the top half of the draft. There should have been an offensive playmaker somewhere in there.

I prefer drafting strictly from the board early, and then going for need later - when the grading probably isn't nearly as clear. If they had Milliner and Richardson rated higher than any offensive playmakers (and I believe they did), I'm fine with it. Could've squeezed a TE in there somewhere from the third round down, though.

[jetsjetsjetss]

i thought the draft was great. I think it helps having two high draft picks but hey the guys we took look good

[ylekram]

If you know the names of most 5th/6th/7th round picks then you're watching a bit too much college football IMO.

 

Anyway, talent is so sparse at that point of the draft that you really gotta take your chances on guys you believe in rather than looking for need.

 

I'm more irritated about the top half of the draft. There should have been an offensive playmaker somewhere in there.

that's the thing,tho. I thought those 3 players were pretty good and imo, coulda gone a few rounds earlier

[Larz]

I'm happy he didn't trade up for geno in the 1st rd like somebody else may have

 

he may have taken the "BPA" thing a little too serious with the milliner pick, but a kid from the best program in the country has a good chance of working out, and you can't whiff there

 

 I hate the richardson pick

 

 

 

he had way too many holes to fill.  I think this year is about get under the cap, get comp picks, then build an offense next year after sanchez is gone

[Sperm Edwards]

Since we haven't seen these guys perform (or fail to perform) yet, my answer is in 2 parts:

 

1) Yes

2) I don't know

 

Yes, in that I'm happy he stuck to his board instead of reaching for need in a year when we had a dozen needs.

 

I don't know, in that I don't know if these guys will meet expectations, exceed them, or flop.  Nor do I yet know the answers to these questions if we subbed-in the top-rated player at TE or something instead.  I mean players someone really wanted in those draft slots today, not cherry-picking in hindsight 3+ years from now.

[FoxJet]

ask me in 2015  i will tell you 

[Lupz27]

If you know the names of most 5th/6th/7th round picks then you're watching a bit too much college football IMO.

Anyway, talent is so sparse at that point of the draft that you really gotta take your chances on guys you believe in rather than looking for need.

I'm more irritated about the top half of the draft. There should have been an offensive playmaker somewhere in there.

2 be fair 2 of the 3 players listed were considered 2nd-3rd round talent at some point of last years CFB season, and even possible 1st rounders after the 2011 CFB season ended by a select few, and the other is a Rutgers player so if u live in the NY area it's pretty easy to know the Rutgers top players.

[Lupz27]

Since we haven't seen these guys perform (or fail to perform) yet, my answer is in 2 parts:

1) Yes

2) I don't know

Yes, in that I'm happy he stuck to his board instead of reaching for need in a year when we had a dozen needs.

I don't know, in that I don't know if these guys will meet expectations, exceed them, or flop. Nor do I yet know the answers to these questions if we subbed-in the top-rated player at TE or something instead. I mean players someone really wanted in those draft slots today, not cherry-picking in hindsight 3+ years from now.

IF, and it's a big IF Geno looks to be the real deal this year, I see the Jets trading up to whatever pick it is necessary to grab the absolute hands down offensive playmaker in next years draft like Marquise Lee, or who ever it is like the Falcons did when they traded the farm for J Jones, and that seems to have turned out pretty good, unless they spend mega bucks on a offensive playmaker on a FA next offseason.

If its me I wait till 2015 draft (if Geno is the real deal) and go after TJ Yeldon no matter the cost to move up, and get him he looks better than T Richardson to me, and the best 3 down back in all of CFB possibly already.

[bitonti]

what I liked about his draft was the athleticism in rd 1. Dee Milliner and SHeldon Richardson were 5 star preps. These guys are elite athletes. whether or not it pans out I like the approach of drafting the rarest athlete on the board and fixing any flaws through coaching. 

 

as for rds 5, 6, 7, it is tough to nitpick right now, especially since Campbell is probably a 2+ year project a la Brandon Moore. He's a rare athlete too btw. If they hit on UDFA like Spadola that's got to factor in the late round grade.  in general these late round grades are often marginal bets, something like 5-10% chance of paying off. Which means 29 out of 32 teams are making bad picks in those rounds. 

[JoeKlecko]

what I liked about his draft was the athleticism in rd 1. Dee Milliner and SHeldon Richardson were 5 star preps. These guys are elite athletes. whether or not it pans out I like the approach of drafting the rarest athlete on the board and fixing any flaws through coaching. 

 

as for rds 5, 6, 7, it is tough to nitpick right now, especially since Campbell is probably a 2+ year project a la Brandon Moore. He's a rare athlete too btw. If they hit on UDFA like Spadola that's got to factor in the late round grade.  in general these late round grades are often marginal bets, something like 5-10% chance of paying off. Which means 29 out of 32 teams are making bad picks in those rounds. 

 

Now this is the kind of intelligent post that I'm used to your making, bit, not the negative, sky is falling kind of posts I've seen here from you of late.

[Jared]

If you know the names of most 5th/6th/7th round picks then you're watching a bit too much college football IMO.

 

I agree with this a lot.  When you're that late in the draft, players come in four categories:

 

1) Productive, but in small programs.  There are questions about whether they can perform against the best of the best.

 

2) Productive, but physically limited.  Question is whether they can improve.

 

3) Raw talent, but not productive.  Can the player learn the game?

 

4) Otherwise good players with concerns (character or health).

 

In all of these cases, it is a crap shoot.

[Klecko73isGod]

I'm gonna wait until I actually see these guys play a single meaningful game before I render judgement on how good or bad this draft was. 

[JoeKlecko]

IF, and it's a big IF Geno looks to be the real deal this year, I see the Jets trading up to whatever pick it is necessary to grab the absolute hands down offensive playmaker in next years draft like Marquise Lee, or who ever it is like the Falcons did when they traded the farm for J Jones, and that seems to have turned out pretty good, unless they spend mega bucks on a offensive playmaker on a FA next offseason.

If its me I wait till 2015 draft (if Geno is the real deal) and go after TJ Yeldon no matter the cost to move up, and get him he looks better than T Richardson to me, and the best 3 down back in all of CFB possibly already.

 

I wouldn't hold my breath on that.  Idzik doesn't seem like the type to me to burn draft picks trading up, and I hope he isn't.  That isn't the smart or right way to try to build a football team and some of you guys need to get that idea and way of doing things out of your heads.  We've seen enough of that stupid BS to last several lifetimes.  The Jets are far from done rebuilding the team talent-wise, and I think it would be WAAAAY too early and foolish to start trading up next year.  Even if Richardson, Milliner, Winters and Geno all pan out, Hill continues to develop and some of the young WRs like Hazelton, Spadola and Rogers work out, the Jets will still have needs at TE, OLB, ILB, RB, QB, probably S, and maybe even WR, because they may still need a true #1 WR.

 

IMO, there are only 3 positions that are really worth trading up for (QB, DE/OLB and LT) and only one of those (QB) is worth moving up regardless of the cost.  Anything else, especially for a RB is just idiotic imo, unless you think your team is only one player away from being a true SB contender and that prospect is a can't miss, sure-fire HOFer.  Since there aren't really many of those types around that are guaranteed, then that leaves that option out.  

 

Yes, Yelton looks like a great prospect at this point, but it is a passing league now, not a running league, and no team with the top rusher has won a SB any time recently.  Yelton is not a difference maker.  If he fell to the Jets, I'd love for them to add him if he keeps playing the way he did last year and stays injury-free, but I sure wouldn't burn any other draft picks to add him.  Plenty of other excellent RBs will emerge by then.  Fans should stop falling in love with college players and then wanting their GM to give up half the draft to add that player.  Tanny has clearly demonstrated to anyone paying attention that that approach does NOT work.

[Stonehands]

The first four picks, Milliner, Richardson, Geno and Winters will make this draft a good one.  I like the Aboushi pick because a swing tackle is an important player on a roster and I think at some point he will provide a reatively cheap alternative at one of the tackle positions  Campbell was the kind of prospect you target as a UDFA and Bohanan does not seem to have much upside.  But, these guys were late picks and they are usuallly hit or miss.

[pedro55]

ask me in 2015  i will tell you 

 

ask me in 2015  i will tell you 

 

  This is how I feel.  If after a couple of seasons these guys are good or bad will tell us how this years draft went.    Some guy having a few good or bad games in his rookie year doesn't say anything.  I mean Rick Mirer once had a good season as an NFL QB.  How'd that turn out?

[Lupz27]

I wouldn't hold my breath on that.  Idzik doesn't seem like the type to me to burn draft picks trading up, and I hope he isn't.  That isn't the smart or right way to try to build a football team and some of you guys need to get that idea and way of doing things out of your heads.  We've seen enough of that stupid BS to last several lifetimes.  The Jets are far from done rebuilding the team talent-wise, and I think it would be WAAAAY too early and foolish to start trading up next year.  Even if Richardson, Milliner, Winters and Geno all pan out, Hill continues to develop and some of the young WRs like Hazelton, Spadola and Rogers work out, the Jets will still have needs at TE, OLB, ILB, RB, QB, probably S, and maybe even WR, because they may still need a true #1 WR.

 

IMO, there are only 3 positions that are really worth trading up for (QB, DE/OLB and LT) and only one of those (QB) is worth moving up regardless of the cost.  Anything else, especially for a RB is just idiotic imo, unless you think your team is only one player away from being a true SB contender and that prospect is a can't miss, sure-fire HOFer.  Since there aren't really many of those types around that are guaranteed, then that leaves that option out.  

 

Yes, Yelton looks like a great prospect at this point, but it is a passing league now, not a running league, and no team with the top rusher has won a SB any time recently.  Yelton is not a difference maker.  If he fell to the Jets, I'd love for them to add him if he keeps playing the way he did last year and stays injury-free, but I sure wouldn't burn any other draft picks to add him.  Plenty of other excellent RBs will emerge by then.  Fans should stop falling in love with college players and then wanting their GM to give up half the draft to add that player.  Tanny has clearly demonstrated to anyone paying attention that that approach does NOT work.

I agree for the most part, the only time I see it worth trading up is if the player is head and shoulders better than any prospect at that position then not just that draft, but the previous years, and the next years, but when you know you are just 1 player away, and that 1 player is that type of prospect at the exact position you need you have to jump, BUT you better be right about A. Your 1 player away, and B. That guy is what you think he is!

Quick scenario, Geno turns out to be bad ass, Hill develops with Geno, and is bad ass, Winters is bad ass, Jets sign a stud veteran OL next offseason, draft a bad ass WR, nail a 3rd round TE, fill the Safety hole, the front 7 is top 3 in the NFL, but Ivory can't stay healthy, never fill that RB void, and come the 2015 draft the only Missing Piece to the puzzle is that bad ass 3 down RB who is a difference maker, Yeldon gets better, and better the next 2 years starts looking like Adrian Peterson, but more like a little better version of T Richardson, in this scenario you don't trade up to grab that one last missing piece if the oppurtonity presents itself?

[gangreenman]

I dont know.  A lot depends on what he does next offseason.  The way Idzik has trimmed the roster and added a lot of injury prone stop gap FA's to fill the voids, hitting on draft picks is a necessity.  As I said at the beginning of the offseason that if, going into the 2014 season we have added a legit long term QB, a legit pass rusher, and 2 or 3 competent OL through the draft - he puts himself in a good position.  We would be able to dump Sanchez, have enough roster flexibility to make up for the loss of Harris and Pace, and ample money to spend on an experienced #1 WR and some help at the Safety position.  He has really yet to address the OL through the draft (drafted 2 project types), and didn'd draft a single linebacker.  

 

Taking a chance with Geno in round 2 instead of one of those positions means that Geno has to work out and that he has to find a good OL and a good LB in next year's draft.  He also has to be willing to open the checkbook for a good #1 WR and probably look for some FA help at TE and S as well.   

[JoeKlecko]

I agree for the most part, the only time I see it worth trading up is if the player is head and shoulders better than any prospect at that position then not just that draft, but the previous years, and the next years, but when you know you are just 1 player away, and that 1 player is that type of prospect at the exact position you need you have to jump, BUT you better be right about A. Your 1 player away, and B. That guy is what you think he is!

Quick scenario, Geno turns out to be bad ass, Hill develops with Geno, and is bad ass, Winters is bad ass, Jets sign a stud veteran OL next offseason, draft a bad ass WR, nail a 3rd round TE, fill the Safety hole, the front 7 is top 3 in the NFL, but Ivory can't stay healthy, never fill that RB void, and come the 2015 draft the only Missing Piece to the puzzle is that bad ass 3 down RB who is a difference maker, Yeldon gets better, and better the next 2 years starts looking like Adrian Peterson, but more like a little better version of T Richardson, in this scenario you don't trade up to grab that one last missing piece if the oppurtonity presents itself?

 

It would depend.  If I was very happy with all my starters and depth, and thought that RB was the one piece I needed to get me over the top, then I'd strongly consider it, and if the price was right would probably pull the trigger.  That is different than saying "regardless of the cost" or "at any cost". That I wouldn't do for any RB in today's NFL unless I had an OC that had come up with a revolutionary offensive scheme that would take the NFL back to a running league rather than a passing league, and that RB was a cross between Gayle Sayers, Sweetness, Jim Brown, Eric Dickerson, Adrian Peterson and I knew he'd have the longevity of CuMar and not Brian Piccolo.  

 

IMO if you're gonna give up multiple picks for a player, that player better be able to come in, start immediately, play at an extremely high level, have a HUGE impact on your team, make other players around him better, and continue at that level for at least 7-8 years.  In today's NFL, I just don't see any RB having that kind of impact or longevity.  I think the league average for RBs is 3-4 years.  How many SBs have Adrien Peterson, Chris Johnson, and whatever other top RBs you can name won recently?  Even if Yelton proves to be a better Richardson and Peterson, I'm not sure that's enough to put a team over the top.  I think one would probably be better off, adding a RB that one didn't have to trade up for and adding upgrades at the 2-3 positions those picks could have gone to.

 

In addition, one has to think about injuries since they're part of the game.  How screwed would you be, if you traded say your top 3 picks to move up for Yelton, then he goes down in his first practice or first preseason game with a year-ending injury and is never the same player?  Even if he doesn't get hurt, what if you have key starter at LT or OLB that goes down with injury and in all likelihood can't adequately replace them because you've traded away the following year's #1 pick?  Trading away draft picks for a player, and especially if that player flops or sustains a serious injury, kills a team for the next 3-5 years.  It's simply too hard to recoup draft picks.  To do that, you have to wind up trading a starter or high quality backup, and that weakens your team.  Is it really worth risking that?  Perhaps you're more of a gambler than I, and if so, that's fair.  I'm more cautious and conservative than that.  I'd rather have the better overall depth or upgrades at a position or two rather than give multiple picks for a player.  You have to do that to get a franchise QB sometimes or to get that LT or pass rusher you need.  I just don't think it's necessary for other, less important positions.

[JoeKlecko]

I dont know.  A lot depends on what he does next offseason.  The way Idzik has trimmed the roster and added a lot of injury prone stop gap FA's to fill the voids, hitting on draft picks is a necessity.  As I said at the beginning of the offseason that if, going into the 2014 season we have added a legit long term QB, a legit pass rusher, and 2 or 3 competent OL through the draft - he puts himself in a good position.  We would be able to dump Sanchez, have enough roster flexibility to make up for the loss of Harris and Pace, and ample money to spend on an experienced #1 WR and some help at the Safety position.  He has really yet to address the OL through the draft (drafted 2 project types), and didn'd draft a single linebacker.  

 

Taking a chance with Geno in round 2 instead of one of those positions means that Geno has to work out and that he has to find a good OL and a good LB in next year's draft.  He also has to be willing to open the checkbook for a good #1 WR and probably look for some FA help at TE and S as well.   

 

Yes next offseason is key, and will give us a clearer evaluation of what kind of GM Idzik is and will be.  

 

The injury-prone, stopgap veterans are by and large on one-year deals and unless they stay healthy and play lights out this year, probably won't be back next year anyway unless it's as backups, and imo doesn't mean that Idzik will feel any extra added pressure in the draft.  The Jets will have a LOT of cap room next season, what should be MORE than enough to adequately address any an all positional and depth needs so that Idzik can focus again on BAP.  The lone exceptions I'd make to that are again at QB and OLB.  Those positions are more important than others, and by virtue of need those two positions should be targeted in the draft next year.  That doesn't mean he should "reach" for players at those positions, but by trading down, staying put or perhaps moving up a little, he needs to come away with two excellent prospects at those two positions, unless Smith shows that he is the answer at QB. 

 

I'd say that drafting 3 OL, even if two are project types is a good start for addressing the OL.  I truly believe Winters will work out to be a quality starter.  There are almost always decent OGs available in FA that could be another one year stopgap, they could draft another in the 3rd round or lower, or sign a quality starter in FA.  In FA they can probably add 2-3 quality starters from among the TE, S and RB or OG positions.  After FA, they can probably add an OLB (1st or 2nd round), a QB (3rd - 5th round if Smith looks like a keeper), and add quality prospects at 2 of the following 3 positions: ILB, TE, S and RB.

 

IMO the biggies are QB and OLB.  Even if Smith turns out to be a quality starter, they're going to need a solid backup, so they'll need to draft a QB next year even if they sign a decent veteran, unless they really think McElroy can develop.  This should definitely be Pace's last season with the team and could be Barnes' only season with the team.  I'm hoping that Sapp will continue to develop and solve one OLB spot, but they'll still need another.  I've been saying that this needs to be a priority for the last 10 years.  IMO Rex and Tanny have gone about things backwards fixing the DL before they do the OLB spot.

 

Taking a chance on Geno in round 2 is no different than taking a chance on any other position player in the round 2.  If he works out great, if not, it hurts and you have to replace him anyway.  Getting a potential quality starter in the 2nd round is crazy good value and well worth the shot since it is the most important position on the team and the Jets haven't had topflight quality QB play in forever.

[gangreenman]

Yes next offseason is key, and will give us a clearer evaluation of what kind of GM Idzik is and will be.  

 

The injury-prone, stopgap veterans are by and large on one-year deals and unless they stay healthy and play lights out this year, probably won't be back next year anyway unless it's as backups, and imo doesn't mean that Idzik will feel any extra added pressure in the draft.  The Jets will have a LOT of cap room next season, what should be MORE than enough to adequately address any an all positional and depth needs so that Idzik can focus again on BAP.  The lone exceptions I'd make to that are again at QB and OLB.  Those positions are more important than others, and by virtue of need those two positions should be targeted in the draft next year.  That doesn't mean he should "reach" for players at those positions, but by trading down, staying put or perhaps moving up a little, he needs to come away with two excellent prospects at those two positions, unless Smith shows that he is the answer at QB. 

 

I'd say that drafting 3 OL, even if two are project types is a good start for addressing the OL.  I truly believe Winters will work out to be a quality starter.  There are almost always decent OGs available in FA that could be another one year stopgap, they could draft another in the 3rd round or lower, or sign a quality starter in FA.  In FA they can probably add 2-3 quality starters from among the TE, S and RB or OG positions.  After FA, they can probably add an OLB (1st or 2nd round), a QB (3rd - 5th round if Smith looks like a keeper), and add quality prospects at 2 of the following 3 positions: ILB, TE, S and RB.

 

IMO the biggies are QB and OLB.  Even if Smith turns out to be a quality starter, they're going to need a solid backup, so they'll need to draft a QB next year even if they sign a decent veteran, unless they really think McElroy can develop.  This should definitely be Pace's last season with the team and could be Barnes' only season with the team.  I'm hoping that Sapp will continue to develop and solve one OLB spot, but they'll still need another.  I've been saying that this needs to be a priority for the last 10 years.  IMO Rex and Tanny have gone about things backwards fixing the DL before they do the OLB spot.

 

Taking a chance on Geno in round 2 is no different than taking a chance on any other position player in the round 2.  If he works out great, if not, it hurts and you have to replace him anyway.  Getting a potential quality starter in the 2nd round is crazy good value and well worth the shot since it is the most important position on the team and the Jets haven't had topflight quality QB play in forever.

I think we both agree on the main points, but a few counter arguments to some of what you said:

1 - The one year cheap stopgaps to me clearly indicates that Idzik wants to build this team through the draft. He has spent a large part of this offseason trading Revis, cutting Scott, letting Keller, Landry, and Moore walk - all moves intended to cut costs.  If we have to spend money to replace the holes he created by making those cuts/deciding to let those guys walk - then everything he did this offseason is pointless.  Therefore, drafting guys on the OL and LB (since we are going to lose Harris and Pace) is essential for Idzik's plan to work.  

2 - It relates to the above, but taking a chance on Geno in round 2 means he has to work out.  You are not going to give up on him regardless after this season, and to draft another QB in the top 4 rounds of next year's draft as well would mean that one of those picks is a waste. You cant have 2 QB's on the field together or sharing time (see: 2012 Jets).  Just about every other position (aside from OL) you have the flexibility to have several high picks on the roster without wasting any of them...

 

If Geno works out and one of the OL drafted this year shows he is capable of starting come 2014, and we draft another one next year as well as a starting caliber OLB - Idzik will be able to use the freed up money to land a few proven players at skill positions (such as WR, TE, and S) in next year's FA.  

[JoeKlecko]

I think we both agree on the main points, but a few counter arguments to some of what you said:

1 - The one year cheap stopgaps to me clearly indicates that Idzik wants to build this team through the draft. He has spent a large part of this offseason trading Revis, cutting Scott, letting Keller, Landry, and Moore walk - all moves intended to cut costs.  If we have to spend money to replace the holes he created by making those cuts/deciding to let those guys walk - then everything he did this offseason is pointless.  Therefore, drafting guys on the OL and LB (since we are going to lose Harris and Pace) is essential for Idzik's plan to work.  

2 - It relates to the above, but taking a chance on Geno in round 2 means he has to work out.  You are not going to give up on him regardless after this season, and to draft another QB in the top 4 rounds of next year's draft as well would mean that one of those picks is a waste. You cant have 2 QB's on the field together or sharing time (see: 2012 Jets).  Just about every other position (aside from OL) you have the flexibility to have several high picks on the roster without wasting any of them...

 

If Geno works out and one of the OL drafted this year shows he is capable of starting come 2014, and we draft another one next year as well as a starting caliber OLB - Idzik will be able to use the freed up money to land a few proven players at skill positions (such as WR, TE, and S) in next year's FA.  

 

I agree that we agree on the main points, and don't think we're even that far on some of the lesser ones.

 

I definitely agree that Idzik wants to build through the draft first and foremost.  I think that's the wisest and cheapest way to build a team.  That said,  I think the days of four-year rebuilds are gone.  The Jets are going to have a TON of cap space next season.  Letting it just sit there and not using it would be silly and counter productive as would overpaying some of their present players in an effort to use it.  He may not try to sign any big stars ala Tanny, but I would be very surprised if he doesn't try to improve depth and add competition at every possible position on the roster where there's a question mark or is in definite need of upgrading.   In addition, GMs who seek to build through the draft, usually try to address "needs' via FA so that they're not forced to draft for "need" in the draft and so opposing teams won't know who they're zeroing in on.  They can then focus on taking BAP or if there's a player they really like and think can help the team they have some leeway for trading up to get him.  I don't expect Idzik to be much for trading up, but he does seem to want to go BAP as much as possible.  Therefore, I think he will seek to at least address, if not fill, whatever holes he perceives the team to have next offseason through FA so he can go BAP in the draft, or if Geno doesn't seem to be the answer at QB, to give him the ability to move up to get a QB he likes if the Jets aren't in a position to get one where they're slated to draft.

 

Where I think you're mistaken in your point #1 is: 

 

 If we have to spend money to replace the holes he created by making those cuts/deciding to let those guys walk - then everything he did this offseason is pointless.  

 

 

Idzik didn't create the holes.   Tanny did.  Idzik's hands were basically tied this offseason...he didn't have the cap space or draft picks to address all the holes the Jets had.  No GM could have filled all of those holes in one season.  That meant he had to go with as many cheap stopgaps as he could in order to try to fill out the roster.  Just because he had to make some stopgap moves doesn't make everything he did pointless.  He got the team in solid cap shape.  He added some excellent young players via the draft and as UDFAs.  He signed some quality veterans who should help the team in Barnes, Colon, Garay, Landry and maybe even Peterman and Goodson.  It's also not a given that Harris will be gone.  I hope he will be, as I think he is way overpaid for his production.  He's a nice player, but not a top 5 MLB or ILB, yet he's paid like one.  Pace should be gone.  I've been saying that OLB has been one of their 2 biggest needs (aside from QB) for 10 years.

 

I think you're totally wrong on #2.  Geno does NOT have to work out.  Taking him in the 2nd round is low risk, low cost.  Yes, it would hurt if he doesn't, but they've given Sanchez 4-5 years, and I don't think you can just write Geno off after one year if he doesn't blow the lid off the NFL this year ala Russell Wilson.  If nothing else, he could develop into a very good backup, and the Jets will need a quality backup regardless of who their starter is.  I think his ceiling is much higher than that however.  Taking another QB in the first 4 rounds would not necessarily mean that the Jets have given up on Geno, particularly if that QB is taken in the 3rd or 4th round, or maybe even the 2nd.  It could mean that they want competition and to get the best QB possible.  Many people think one of the big mistakes they've made with Sanchez is not bringing in any real competition for him and thus coddling him.  I agree that if they take a Teddy Bridgewater with their first pick next year, it's probably over for Geno, but not necessarily.  Geno could very well have something to say about that.  He could come to camp next year and light it up while Bridgewater struggles and force the Jets to start him.  One never has enough QBs in the NFL.   Injuries happen, especially to QBs.  If nothing else, if they took Bridgewater and both he and Geno are lighting it up in TC, they could always trade one of them for a couple of high draft picks.  Having two quality QBs isn't wasting them.  Having the insurance in case of injury is important.  Having the luxury of trading one of them for two #1 draft picks is great too, so it would not be a waste, particularly if the QB was taken in the 3rd or 4th round.

 

You contradict yourself somewhat with your last paragraph and agree with me.  That is basically what I said.  Whereas quality WRs generally become available in FA, TEs and S do, and I think he will definitely look to add at least one at each position in FA next offseason, and could draft one of each as well.

[gangreenman]

I agree that we agree on the main points, and don't think we're even that far on some of the lesser ones.

 

I definitely agree that Idzik wants to build through the draft first and foremost.  I think that's the wisest and cheapest way to build a team.  That said,  I think the days of four-year rebuilds are gone.  The Jets are going to have a TON of cap space next season.  Letting it just sit there and not using it would be silly and counter productive as would overpaying some of their present players in an effort to use it.  He may not try to sign any big stars ala Tanny, but I would be very surprised if he doesn't try to improve depth and add competition at every possible position on the roster where there's a question mark or is in definite need of upgrading.   In addition, GMs who seek to build through the draft, usually try to address "needs' via FA so that they're not forced to draft for "need" in the draft and so opposing teams won't know who they're zeroing in on.  They can then focus on taking BAP or if there's a player they really like and think can help the team they have some leeway for trading up to get him.  I don't expect Idzik to be much for trading up, but he does seem to want to go BAP as much as possible.  Therefore, I think he will seek to at least address, if not fill, whatever holes he perceives the team to have next offseason through FA so he can go BAP in the draft, or if Geno doesn't seem to be the answer at QB, to give him the ability to move up to get a QB he likes if the Jets aren't in a position to get one where they're slated to draft.

 

Where I think you're mistaken in your point #1 is: 

 

 

Idzik didn't create the holes.   Tanny did.  Idzik's hands were basically tied this offseason...he didn't have the cap space or draft picks to address all the holes the Jets had.  No GM could have filled all of those holes in one season.  That meant he had to go with as many cheap stopgaps as he could in order to try to fill out the roster.  Just because he had to make some stopgap moves doesn't make everything he did pointless.  He got the team in solid cap shape.  He added some excellent young players via the draft and as UDFAs.  He signed some quality veterans who should help the team in Barnes, Colon, Garay, Landry and maybe even Peterman and Goodson.  It's also not a given that Harris will be gone.  I hope he will be, as I think he is way overpaid for his production.  He's a nice player, but not a top 5 MLB or ILB, yet he's paid like one.  Pace should be gone.  I've been saying that OLB has been one of their 2 biggest needs (aside from QB) for 10 years.

 

I think you're totally wrong on #2.  Geno does NOT have to work out.  Taking him in the 2nd round is low risk, low cost.  Yes, it would hurt if he doesn't, but they've given Sanchez 4-5 years, and I don't think you can just write Geno off after one year if he doesn't blow the lid off the NFL this year ala Russell Wilson.  If nothing else, he could develop into a very good backup, and the Jets will need a quality backup regardless of who their starter is.  I think his ceiling is much higher than that however.  Taking another QB in the first 4 rounds would not necessarily mean that the Jets have given up on Geno, particularly if that QB is taken in the 3rd or 4th round, or maybe even the 2nd.  It could mean that they want competition and to get the best QB possible.  Many people think one of the big mistakes they've made with Sanchez is not bringing in any real competition for him and thus coddling him.  I agree that if they take a Teddy Bridgewater with their first pick next year, it's probably over for Geno, but not necessarily.  Geno could very well have something to say about that.  He could come to camp next year and light it up while Bridgewater struggles and force the Jets to start him.  One never has enough QBs in the NFL.   Injuries happen, especially to QBs.  If nothing else, if they took Bridgewater and both he and Geno are lighting it up in TC, they could always trade one of them for a couple of high draft picks.  Having two quality QBs isn't wasting them.  Having the insurance in case of injury is important.  Having the luxury of trading one of them for two #1 draft picks is great too, so it would not be a waste, particularly if the QB was taken in the 3rd or 4th round.

 

You contradict yourself somewhat with your last paragraph and agree with me.  That is basically what I said.  Whereas quality WRs generally become available in FA, TEs and S do, and I think he will definitely look to add at least one at each position in FA next offseason, and could draft one of each as well.

I think you need to re-read everything I said.  

1- Obviously they are not going to give up on Geno after year 1. We all know that.  If you find it necessary to bring in competition for him next offseason, you sign a vet on the cheap.  To pick one in the top 4 rounds would mean that either that pick or Geno (if he loses the competition) will be sitting on the bench and that pick will be wasted whichever way the competition goes. This team needs young talent in a lot of different places.  Backup QB isn't one of them. 

2 - I have said from the day Idzik was hired and all of those cuts and trades were made, and replaced with band-aid stopgaps, that for his plan to succeed he needs to successfully draft a QB, a pass-rushing OLB, and 2 or 3 starting caliber offensive linemen.  If he can do that, he puts us in position to open the checkbooks to grab some proven talent at skill positions (because he doesnt have to spend it finding a pass rusher, a QB, and offensive linemen that are already not with the team or won't make it through next offseason).   He got his QB and hopefully one of those OL in this draft. We also may have gotten an OLB with the drafting of Richardson depending how Coples does - but thats a big if. 

3 - I understand the motive behind signing the stopgap players as a way to fill the positions without using up salary cap.  My point (as outlined above) is that if he has to spend a lot of $$ in FA to replace guys like Moore, Pace, etc. Then all that money is still tied up in the same positions - therefore making all that salary reduction a moot point. 

[Greenseed4]

  

1- Obviously they are not going to give up on Geno after year 1. We all know that.  If you find it necessary to bring in competition for him next offseason, you sign a vet on the cheap.  To pick one in the top 4 rounds would mean that either that pick or Geno (if he loses the competition) will be sitting on the bench and that pick will be wasted whichever way the competition goes. This team needs young talent in a lot of different places.  Backup QB isn't one of them. 

 

 

I sincerely hope that Geno's presence (and round drafted) would not preclude us from drafting our QB of the future.  

 

There is nothing wrong with having two viable QBs on the roster, especially at the price tag we've locked Geno up for. I have read comparisons of Geno Smith to Donovon McNabb, but also of him to Aaron Brooks.  For all intents and purposes, Brooks was not a horrible QB, just a career back-up who would be nice to have on the roster.  

 

Jimmy Clausen was a second round pick in 2010; Cam Newton was the first overall the very following year.  I doubt Panthers' fans are worried about their decision to double-dip at the position.  I would hate to see us pass on a franchise quality QB to not hurt the feelings of a second round pick...or the man who drafted him.  

[JoeKlecko]

I think you need to re-read everything I said. 

1- Obviously they are not going to give up on Geno after year 1. We all know that.  If you find it necessary to bring in competition for him next offseason, you sign a vet on the cheap.  To pick one in the top 4 rounds would mean that either that pick or Geno (if he loses the competition) will be sitting on the bench and that pick will be wasted whichever way the competition goes. This team needs young talent in a lot of different places.  Backup QB isn't one of them. 

2 - I have said from the day Idzik was hired and all of those cuts and trades were made, and replaced with band-aid stopgaps, that for his plan to succeed he needs to successfully draft a QB, a pass-rushing OLB, and 2 or 3 starting caliber offensive linemen.  If he can do that, he puts us in position to open the checkbooks to grab some proven talent at skill positions (because he doesnt have to spend it finding a pass rusher, a QB, and offensive linemen that are already not with the team or won't make it through next offseason).   He got his QB and hopefully one of those OL in this draft. We also may have gotten an OLB with the drafting of Richardson depending how Coples does - but thats a big if. 

3 - I understand the motive behind signing the stopgap players as a way to fill the positions without using up salary cap.  My point (as outlined above) is that if he has to spend a lot of $$ in FA to replace guys like Moore, Pace, etc. Then all that money is still tied up in the same positions - therefore making all that salary reduction a moot point. 

 

I understood that you said that Idzik created the holes with his cost cutting and stopgap moves.  He didn't.  The holes were already there.  Warm bodies don't fill holes.  The moves were not just cost cutting, either.  That was part of the reason for the cuts, but he was also cutting older, unproductive or limited players from the roster.

 

I also understand that you said that drafting a QB next year would be a waste, and I don't think it would.   I disagree that one just brings in a vet QB on the cheap.  Cheap veteran QBs aren't very good, not who you want starting or backing up, and not really going to push a young player with potential.  If you want to push a player you have to have another player of equal talent and ability.   With the vet JAG vet QBs around the NFL these days, none of them are really going to push a talented young QB.  They may have an edge because of their being used to the speed of the NFL, familiarity with NFL offenses, and their maturity and experience, but talent-wise, most of them wouldn't really push or threaten a quality QB prospect.  I think if Geno had played in an NFL-type offense in college, the Jets probably would never have been able to draft him in the 2nd round, and may not have gotten a chance to draft him at all.  If they did, I don't think it would be much of a contest at all between Sanchez and he for the starting job.  So I think you're wrong about signing a cheap vet QB being good enough and it being a waste to draft another QB.  When you've been as long without a franchise caliber QB as the Jets have, you don't draft one QB, hope you've got it right, and call it quits.  You keep drafting them until you KNOW you've found your next franchise QB.  I don't think I was quite clear on my thoughts regarding Geno, but unless or until he proves that he's that guy, the Jets should keep drafting a QB every year.  They don't have to be in the first 4 rounds, but they should draft a QB.  Whereas they probably won't give up on Geno unless he just proves to be a bust (and that doesn't look likely at this point), they could and it wouldn't be that big of a deal.  I think that he's already shown enough that at a minimum they'll give him another year or two to prove that he can at least be their backup QB going forward, if not develop into a quality starter.

 

Taking a QB is almost NEVER a wasted pick.  One can never have enough QBs.  I don't know how long you've been a Jets fan, but it wasn't too long ago that the Jets lost their #1 and #2 QBs for the season on successive or almost successive plays in a game and found Brooks Bollinger starting for them.  Rare?  Yes, but it still is a valid point.  QBs get injured all the time.  Check the stats on it.  LOTS of starting QBs have gone down with injuries over the last several years  I think you need to re-read my refutation of this point.  There are many ways the QB that is drafted next year would not only NOT be wasted, but be invaluable if he pans out as well.  Successful teams like GB and the Niners of Walsh drafted a QB every year and it almost always paid off for them.  Besides, starting QBs aren't found that often in the 3rd and 4th rounds.  Those guys are usually backups, and if Geno becomes the starter, they will need a quality backup.  By quality, I'm not talking about the Grossmans, Ortons, or other JAG QBs that stay in the league because of the scarcity of good QBs.  I liked Jason Campbell better than any of the other FA QBs available this year.  He was surprisingly cheap ($1.75 mil per year on a 2-year deal).  My 2nd favorite, Bruce Gradkowski is being paid $3-4 million a year on a 3 or 4 year deal.  The latter isn't particularly cheap, nor is Gradkowski all that good.  That's just how bad all the other FA QBs were.

 

I agree with your new #2 point.

 

With regard to your new #3 point, we both have said that we think the way to build the team is through the draft and we think that is the way that Idzik will go about it.  Further, topflight pass rushing OLBs just don't become available as FA unless they're older, want a ridiculous amount of money and their old team is cap-strapped, or have injury histories.  Similarly, the only topflight OG that I can remember becoming available is Steve Hutchinson and that's because he was making a ridiculous amount of money.  Since they cut Moore who was older and more expensive, I can't see Idzik turning right around and bringing in another expensive FA OG.  I could be wrong about him, but at this point, can't see him doing that.  Depending upon what he thinks of Campbell's and Aboushi's development this season, I think he'll probably either sign a young, cheaper FA as competition and hope they can coach him up/develop him, sign another one-year stopgap OG, or perhaps he'll draft another in the 5th round or lower.  Unless Idzik is as clueless as Tanny, since he'll have the cap cleaned up next year, I can't see him turning right around and making the same mistakes that Tanny did, overpaying certain players,  or over paying for players at non-premium positions.  If he pays a FA a lot of money, it will be because that player is a topflight starter at a position of need for the Jets and worth the money.  To reiterate, we both agree that he's going to have to find his starting QB and pass-rushing OLB in the draft.  TE and S he could find either in FA or the draft.  OG he could find anywhere.  If he wants to upgrade the RT spot, he could find either via FA or the draft.  Again, I could be wrong, but at this point, I just don't see Idzik going crazy in FA ala Tanny.  I think he signs younger, cheaper vets or older, cheaper one-year stopgaps to add competition and then adds his primary talent through the draft.

[JoeKlecko]

I sincerely hope that Geno's presence (and round drafted) would not preclude us from drafting our QB of the future.  

 

There is nothing wrong with having two viable QBs on the roster, especially at the price tag we've locked Geno up for. I have read comparisons of Geno Smith to Donovon McNabb, but also of him to Aaron Brooks.  For all intents and purposes, Brooks was not a horrible QB, just a career back-up who would be nice to have on the roster.  

 

Jimmy Clausen was a second round pick in 2010; Cam Newton was the first overall the very following year.  I doubt Panthers' fans are worried about their decision to double-dip at the position.  I would hate to see us pass on a franchise quality QB to not hurt the feelings of a second round pick...or the man who drafted him.  

 

Agreed. Definitely.

[The Crusher]

ask me in 2015  i will tell you 

 

 

Really a great post.  Truth is the answer with come in parts until we get there, but to answer it without question it will take 2-3 years.