Matt Millen or John Idzik - who's worse?

[ylekram]

It's the execution of this strategy that needs to be sharpened

sharpened....lmao

[sourceworx]

Please it isn't even close.  What Matt Millen did in Detroit was borderline criminal.  

 

Idzik hasn't done a good job, but he's not on Matt Millen's level.

[bitonti]

Please it isn't even close.  What Matt Millen did in Detroit was borderline criminal.  

 

Idzik hasn't done a good job, but he's not on Matt Millen's level.

 

they are strikingly similar. Millen had Calvin, IDzik has Sheldon. Basically every other pick stunk. 

[bitonti]

 For me its too early to judge how good the 2014 draft was in the first place.

 

its not too early when half the guys aren't on the roster.

[JetsFanInDenver]

its not too early when half the guys aren't on the roster.

 

But what if you net 4-5 legit starters from a draft. WOuld you call it a failure ?

[Ex-Rex]

Any GM needs to be given 3-4 season before you can pass judgement on his execution.

 

His first year draft so far has netted us three legit starters in SHeldon Richardson, Chris Ivory, Aboushi. Plus Milliner and Bohanon have contributed when on the field. It definitely is a pretty good draft.

 

While there are aspects of this last  draft that I am disappointed with it's still too early to pass judgement on that draft class. I will wait atleast till the end of next season before we can evaluate with any degree of certainty.

Ivory was not a draft pick, but a FA pickup. Milliner has been nothing but injury prone and on the sidelines. Bohannon has done little. Calvin Pryor can't even beat out a fourth round pick - Jaiquan Jarrett although there is hope for Jace Amaro he doesn't appear to be the down the seam TE we had hoped for. Idzik has swung and missed far more than even made contact and his deplorable FA failure this season sealed his fate in my mind.

[Sperm Edwards]

The fact that Sperm had to write an essay (a well-worded one at that) trying to make sense of the Idzik trade is proof in and of itself that the trade made absolutely no sense then, and less sense now.

 

In the future, Idzik should use this as a litmus test prior to making deals; If he can't explain the rationale behind the trade/signing/transaction in one sentence, then it probably doesn't make sense and he shouldn't do it.

 

From Idzik's POV, he picked up Decker early. Good job. 1 for 1.  But even then, the Jets didn't need a starting (outside) WR; they needed 2. Harvin's acquisition makes his performance, since then, 1 for 4 instead of 0 for 3. Also, now entering the 2015 season (including Kerley's extension) on paper the team has its 2 outside WRs, its slot receiver, and its TE in place. All young, healthy (as healthy as Harvin gets), and all are locked up long term for at least the next 3 seasons.

 

I will say this: picking up an actual, viable option at QB makes this is a damn solid group of receivers that should be capable of passing on - and more importantly, putting up points on - anyone. Of course, finding said QB has been pretty elusive for some time now.

 

Other than another lost season, which honestly wasn't leading to a superbowl without a QB anyway, the horrible part of it is Harvin's $.  Since Harvin is eating up $6-7M of cap space that would have pushed ahead to 2015, if kept under his current deal he's effectively costing some $17M for the 2015 season alone. One could argue that saving up the team's cap pennies makes this indulgence possible. One could also argue that if better WRs were acquired through FA or the draft, this indulgence would be wholly unnecessary. And there's also the good chance that if he sticks around it will be under a redone (lower $) contract. But that only happens if Harvin thinks the Jets' redone offer still exceeds what he'd get on the open market. 

[Ex-Rex]

Enough with this garbage "hindsight is 20/20".  So sick of it.  Just because ignorant Jets fans liked the Vick and D'Mitri Patterson signings and drafting Pryor over Clinton-Dix, Cooks and Kelvin Benjamin rationalizes nothing.  Pryor sucks.  He's not as bad as Kyle Wilson or Vernon Gholston.  The problem is he's not good either and we passed up so very good players at positions of need for him.

 

Pryor is a glorified Eric Smith.  He's average at best at covering people and can be burned pretty easily.  You can't really improve on speed he is what he is unless he takes steroids I suppose.  Pryor just hits hard - that's pretty much all he does.

Pryor whiffs more often that he hits ANYTHING. Can't play in space, can't tackle in open field - but he is just the kind of guy Rex wanted, so Iggy gave it to him. Be careful what you ask for Rex, you just might get it. Passing on Benjamin was of course, stupidity personified. For a team that was in dire need of a big WR, Idzik kept hoping that Stephen Hill would pan out. Of course he didn't and is sitting on Carolina's practice squad - BEHIND Benjamin. Clinton-Dix is a hard hitting safety who CAN play in space and CAN tackle in the open field. He can also catch a football. Anyone remember Pryor's only attempt at that? I do and I still laugh in recollection.

[sourceworx]

But what if you net 4-5 legit starters from a draft. WOuld you call it a failure ?

No. If you get four or more legit starters out of one draft, that is an excellent draft, regardless of how many picks you had.

But the problem is we've only added one so far. 12 picks, one starter, and he was benched the last game. That's pretty bad.

[bitonti]

 he is just the kind of guy Rex wanted, so Iggy gave it to him. Be careful what you ask for Rex, you just might get it.  

 

Rex doesn't pound the table for Pryor. He needs corners. He'll take a safety but he needs corners. Dennard probably would have been Rex's perfect pick at that point. 

[sourceworx]

Ivory was not a draft pick, but a FA pickup. Milliner has been nothing but injury prone and on the sidelines. Bohannon has done little. Calvin Pryor can't even beat out a fourth round pick - Jaiquan Jarrett although there is hope for Jace Amaro he doesn't appear to be the down the seam TE we had hoped for. Idzik has swung and missed far more than even made contact and his deplorable FA failure this season sealed his fate in my mind.

Ivory was acquired via a trade. We gave up our 4th rounder in 2013 for him.

[freestater]

No. If you get four or more legit starters out of one draft, that is an excellent draft, regardless of how many picks you had.

But the problem is we've only added one so far. 12 picks, one starter, and he was benched the last game. That's pretty bad.

Especially if the mantra of the guy in charge is to "build through the draft". Even that looks to be complete BS now, with the desperation trade for Harvin, at a point when the season is already lost.

[bitonti]

 I will say this: picking up an actual, viable option at QB makes this is a damn solid group of receivers that should be capable of passing on - and more importantly, putting up points on - anyone. Of course, finding said QB has been pretty elusive for some time now.

 

This guy went all in on Geno Smith. It's one thing to take him at a bargain rate and have him compete. They gifted him this job two years in a row, "to see what they had." Idzik didn't let the coaching staff evaluate the players and didn't let Rex set the lineup. When you have a "group decision" and your boss is in the group, it's not really a group decision. They stuck with this second round pick way longer than TEN or BUF stuck with their first round picks. 

 

Geno friggin Smith. It's an appalling lack of judgment. 

 

After that whole situation and the 2014 draft, i don't trust this guy to make anymore picks or signings. Pick the next head coach? Please. Idzik can't pick his nose. 

[JetsFanInDenver]

Ivory was not a draft pick, but a FA pickup. Milliner has been nothing but injury prone and on the sidelines. Bohannon has done little. Calvin Pryor can't even beat out a fourth round pick - Jaiquan Jarrett although there is hope for Jace Amaro he doesn't appear to be the down the seam TE we had hoped for. Idzik has swung and missed far more than even made contact and his deplorable FA failure this season sealed his fate in my mind.

 

Doesnt make a difference. Ivory plays in the Green and WHite and was acquired by Idzik.

[JetsFanInDenver]

No. If you get four or more legit starters out of one draft, that is an excellent draft, regardless of how many picks you had.

But the problem is we've only added one so far. 12 picks, one starter, and he was benched the last game. That's pretty bad.

Its too early or me too judge this draft.

 

Take one example from last season's draft, no one penciled Aboushi as a starter at the start of this season. He was picked last season and was not even active for most of the games. Yet he has been very good in the few games he has started for us. 

 

So I will give it atleast and i repeat atleast two seasons before i judge this draft.

[sourceworx]

Its too early or me too judge this draft.

Take one example from last season's draft, no one penciled Aboushi as a starter at the start of this season. He was picked last season and was not even active for most of the games. Yet he has been very good in the few games he has started for us.

So I will give it atleast and i repeat atleast two seasons before i judge this draft.

I agree that it's too early to fairly judge this draft. I think Pryor and Amaro are going to be fine.

But let's imagine that next year Enemkpali and/or Reilly become good pass rushers (both showed some potential in the preseason), and Shaq Evans or Enunwa becomes a viable receiver.

Suddenly this draft doesn't look so bad.

[freestater]

Not me. The line for the lynch mob starts to the right.

[Sperm Edwards]

This guy went all in on Geno Smith. It's one thing to take him at a bargain rate and have him compete. They gifted him this job two years in a row, "to see what they had." Idzik didn't let the coaching staff evaluate the players and didn't let Rex set the lineup. When you have a "group decision" and your boss is in the group, it's not really a group decision. They stuck with this second round pick way longer than TEN or BUF stuck with their first round picks. 

 

Geno friggin Smith. It's an appalling lack of judgment. 

 

After that whole situation and the 2014 draft, i don't trust this guy to make anymore picks or signings. Pick the next head coach? Please. Idzik can't pick his nose. 

 

I'm comfortable with a full housecleaning. 

[bitonti]

I'm comfortable with a full housecleaning. 

 

me too. Fire them both is deserved. Firing just Rex and allowing Idzik to make another major decision is bad idea jeans.

[Kleckineau]

Worse than Matt Millen?

Thats some very big shoes to fill.

He is the Isiah Thomas or Mike Milbury of the NFL,

[Jack Straw]

This guy went all in on Geno Smith. It's one thing to take him at a bargain rate and have him compete. They gifted him this job two years in a row, "to see what they had." Idzik didn't let the coaching staff evaluate the players and didn't let Rex set the lineup. When you have a "group decision" and your boss is in the group, it's not really a group decision. They stuck with this second round pick way longer than TEN or BUF stuck with their first round picks. 

 

Geno friggin Smith. It's an appalling lack of judgment. 

 

After that whole situation and the 2014 draft, i don't trust this guy to make anymore picks or signings. Pick the next head coach? Please. Idzik can't pick his nose. 

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. Anyone who's willing to stake their job on a talent as divisive as Geno Smith is someone who isn't fit for the job. The worst case scenario for Idzik was having an average (but overachieving) year one, which made it impossible for him to fire the head coach he didn't want in the first place.

 

Additionally, the up and down year one Geno had made it just as difficult for him to bail on his own draft choice so shortly after drafting him. He made his own bed and this one. Never should have staked his career on a guy who can't figure out how timezones work.

[Sperm Edwards]

me too. Fire them both is deserved. Firing just Rex and allowing Idzik to make another major decision is bad idea jeans.

 

Ryan has earned it no matter how the team finishes. Disadvantages aside - and keep in mind I missed multiple games season myself - a late season surge (if there even is one) is useless after the team's still only got 1 win entering November. It's like the final stats of a certain current Eagles QB getting padded with fantasy points after they were already down by over 30 points late in the game. When the lack of performance counts is when it's still a season (or still a game on Sunday night). Padding useless yards+TDs for a QB after the game's effectively over, or wins for a QB or HC after the season's effectively over, are (and should be) mostly meaningless.

 

I think you and I probably disagree on some of the reasons Idzik has earned it (I was, and still am, actually happy he didn't exhaust all our cap room, and am happy for the same reason now that I was back then). But it's not because he failed to grossly overpay for the likes of Austin Howard aside (and incidentally, I'm reading that on balance this season Howard's been pretty bad and by far has been the weakest link on Oakland's OL). 

 

Some of it is that he gambled on players with injury history. I still say it's hard to predict that a guy with a past shoulder injury is going to bust his ACL. But, as a GM, when you take players (like both his higher CB draft picks) with notable injury histories, and they then continue to be plagued by injuries in the pros, you have to accept that you're going to get blamed by people who say it was a foregone conclusion that these guys were going to always be injury-riddled and therefore unreliable.

 

There are other reasons and misfires, but that's the point. There are enough in a short span of time that it's too easy for too many people to label him as the boogeyman, with some evidence on their side.

 

Plus, if he has another draft class like 2014 - and a less talented pool to choose from, with fewer picks to make, increases this likelihood - and gets no rebound surprises from previously-labeled busts, then he's gone anyway. Then a new, incoming GM prospect has the weight of a 1st year HC with 2-3 years left on his deal, with an owner who doesn't seem to have an appetite for eating guaranteed multi-year contracts.

[Integrity28]

I agree that it's too early to fairly judge this draft. I think Pryor and Amaro are going to be fine.

But let's imagine that next year Enemkpali and/or Reilly become good pass rushers (both showed some potential in the preseason), and Shaq Evans or Enunwa becomes a viable receiver.

Suddenly this draft doesn't look so bad.

 

You want to give a draft more than 10 games to produce HOFers? COME ONE MAN!

[bitonti]

double

[bitonti]

  Disadvantages aside - and keep in mind I missed multiple games season myself - a late season surge (if there even is one) is useless after the team's still only got 1 win entering November. I 

 

Can't help but wonder what the team's record could have been if Vick started all year. Idzik basically declared Geno the QB.

 

in a fair competition, Mike Vick wins everytime.

 

That's what I'm most mad at Idzik for. not the GOodson/Patterson waste signings. Not the 20 failed draft picks. The debacle that was the Jets QB "competition." It happened last year too. 

 

It's no way to run a football team. QB is the most important position on the field. There's no way Rex wanted the rookie Geno over Sanchez or the second year Geno over vick.

 

Side note Vick is the best QB Rex has had since he's been the HC. think about that for a second. 

 

And even more than the process, it's a shocking lack of judgment to pick Geno as the guy to go all in on. I understand why teams go all in on QB players like 1st year Peyton Manning. Fair enough. Treating Geno like he was a FQB was just appalling.  I still can't get over it. Geno Smith? Really? 

[bitonti]

btw the fact that him vs Millen is even a discussion illustrates how terrible Idzik has been.  This is not the guy I want picking another draft class, free agency or next head coach. 

[afosomf]

Can't help but wonder what the team's record could have been if Vick started all year. Idzik basically declared Geno the QB.

 

in a fair competition, Mike Vick wins everytime.

 

That's what I'm most mad at Idzik for. not the GOodson/Patterson waste signings. Not the 20 failed draft picks. The debacle that was the Jets QB "competition." It happened last year too. 

 

It's no way to run a football team. QB is the most important position on the field. There's no way Rex wanted the rookie Geno over Sanchez or the second year Geno over vick.

 

Side note Vick is the best QB Rex has had since he's been the HC. think about that for a second. 

 

And even more than the process, it's a shocking lack of judgment to pick Geno as the guy to go all in on. I understand why teams go all in on QB players like 1st year Peyton Manning. Fair enough. Treating Geno like he was a FQB was just appalling.  I still can't get over it. Geno Smith? Really? 

the record would be the same if Vick had started yr as QB

 

1) Given his fragile history, he would have been on IR by week 4. If Pitt had truly shown up to play, they would have beat the Vick led

team, find it fascinating that Haley did not throw downfield at all and tried to run vs Jets strength.

 

2) you should be mad at Idziks 2 draft classes, outside of Richardson he is only pro-bowler drafted. Most of picks are scrap heap.

[Sperm Edwards]

Can't help but wonder what the team's record could have been if Vick started all year. Idzik basically declared Geno the QB.

 

in a fair competition, Mike Vick wins everytime.

 

That's what I'm most mad at Idzik for. not the GOodson/Patterson waste signings. Not the 20 failed draft picks. The debacle that was the Jets QB "competition." It happened last year too. 

 

It's no way to run a football team. QB is the most important position on the field. There's no way Rex wanted the rookie Geno over Sanchez or the second year Geno over vick.

 

Side note Vick is the best QB Rex has had since he's been the HC. think about that for a second. 

 

And even more than the process, it's a shocking lack of judgment to pick Geno as the guy to go all in on. I understand why teams go all in on QB players like 1st year Peyton Manning. Fair enough. Treating Geno like he was a FQB was just appalling.  I still can't get over it. Geno Smith? Really? 

 

Again, I don't totally agree with you on this. At some point a QB needs to take his lumps. Just prior to taking those lumps he isn't typically going to be the best QB on the roster. I think it was Geno's job unless he looked just like Boyd in camp. He didn't so they gave him the benefit of the doubt. I'm at a disadvantage since I only really closely saw his first couple of games, but I accept that he was sub-Sanchez dreadful. But really he wasn't even that bad after the first 2 games.

 

My criticism is more the opposite of yours. I'm pretty upset about the failed draft picks. The team wasn't going to win a superbowl with Vick, even if he stayed healthy and even if they won a few more games (neither of which is remotely certain). But the team could have retooled itself more effectively for the future at several positions. 

 

Only thing I will say as far as keeping this WR/TE corps intact is that a 2015 rookie QB coming in will be treated to a far better group of pass-catchers than the Jets have trotted out for some time. Seems the position is hard enough to master without our walk-on level receivers. Won't make a bad QB good, but it can only help.

 

But it's telling enough that I can disagree with you 100% on the reasoning and still come to more or less the same decision. Hell, it's telling enough that I agree with you on anything.

[Integrity28]

Side note Vick is the best QB Rex has had since he's been the HC.

 

 

My giving a crap about this went out the window the minute Rex hand-picked Sanchez and then installed the red-light-green-light offense, which wasn't to be outdone by the inclusion of the wildcat, or the "we want Mark to run, but he has to slide" offensive wrinkles of genius.

[T0mShane]

btw the fact that him vs Millen is even a discussion

It's not really a discussion.

[bitonti]

 But it's telling enough that I can disagree with you 100% on the reasoning and still come to more or less the same decision. Hell, it's telling enough that I agree with you on anything.

 

it's a testament to the sheer breadth and variety of Idzik's screw ups. In only 2 years, there's alot of ground to cover.

[RSJ]

Usually you give a GM 4 years to judge his work. Unless his work has been so horrible you can judge it in two years.

[RSJ]

It's not really a discussion.

You are right. At least Millen drafted Calvin.

[Cyberjet]

btw the fact that him vs Millen is even a discussion illustrates how terrible Idzik has been. This is not the guy I want picking another draft class, free agency or next head coach.

Or maybe how blinded certain Jets' fans are by hate. What a bogus comparison.

[pdxgreen]

Although I am not aware of all of Millian's moves. He was a dumpster fire that was allowed to go unchecked. Detroit fans were too busy closing down whole parts of their city to save electicity to notice. Jets fan, who actually, live in a meaningful part of the world, noticed the smoldering Idzik. So I'd say Millen was worse.