Victor Beasley has to be the pick

[Smashmouth]

Drafting based solely on college production is no guarantee of success.  Hate the combine all you want, but studs with college production bust all the time.  For instance, Jordan White was one of the all-time collegiate receiving leaders.  So was Greg Salas.  Not exactly NFL studs 

Not saying basing it off of college production or stats ...you have to look at a player from every angle, who he's competing against, how he fairs in different situations, how fast he reacts to changes ...so many variables ...stats and the combine are the least of which should come into play while scouting a football player, key word Scouting. Now if your looking at players who have been scouted an you like what you see then using the combine as an added tool to decide between players can come into play its not a completely worthless medium but it should not be looked at to push players up 15 to 20 spots in the draft

[DaBallhawk]

Drafting based solely on college production is no guarantee of success.  Hate the combine all you want, but studs with college production bust all the time.  For instance, Jordan White was one of the all-time collegiate receiving leaders.  So was Greg Salas.  Not exactly NFL studs 

 

That's besides the point. Of course success in college doesn't guarantee you anything. But film/tape is only thing really that should matter when evaluating players. And there are plenty of reasons why Salas is not a difference maker in the NFL. Nobody expected him to be. Anybody that watched him play pretty much saw in college what he is now - a reliable backup.

[#27TheDominator]

...and when a player is beating guys because he is faster than them, it matters a great deal if he can run a 4.35 or a 4.59.  A guy like Peter Warrick was a monster against slower college players and that is in a top tier conference.  Put him in the NFL and he wasn't fast enough to do it.  If you can't time him, who do you know he isn't that fast?  The importance of the combine (mostly from a fan's standpoint) is that it is a level playing field.  It isn't watching somebody blow by a stiff CB from Chippewa State or abusing Kentucky for 93 TDs in one game (that's what it looked like in DGB's highlights).  Speed isn't even the most important of these tests, but every year I end up taking this side of the argument and I was not a blazer.  I was the guy telling everybody that it was pad speed that matters. Explosive athlete is explosive athlete. 

[jack48]

Im not really sold on him. What do you see that I should be looking for? 

 

I like Beasley when he rushes the passer. You know how some people talk about that "1st step"? You can't miss it with this guy. By the time the rest of the Dline is on their 2nd to 3rd step up the field, Beasley is more than halfway to the QB. The problem that I have with Beasley is that this is all I've seen. I haven't seen any coverage skills or run support. Seems like a 3rd down OLB, but a potentially great one at that. Not sure if you can invest a #6 pick into something like that, at the same time im not sure if you can pass on the best 1st step in college football and is a terror coming off the edge. I can see why people would consider Beasley at #6

 

As for Dante, I really dont know. 

Kind of like an Abraham.  Not a real LB?

[Latinlawyer]

Combine freaks have a history of busting. I would evaluate the board and select the best available player...we have a huge swath of positions that need upgrading and selecting a pick based on combine numbers is short sighted. Also, just because he has measurements that are similar to Von Miller does not make him Von Miller. 

 

We must select the BAP at 6. Unless of course we are 100% convinced we want Mariota...then we need to be smart about trading up. Now, if Mariota is unavailable at #6, I could see us trading back and picking up draft picks to address our many holes...

 

LL

[Smashmouth]

...and when a player is beating guys because he is faster than them, it matters a great deal if he can run a 4.35 or a 4.59.  A guy like Peter Warrick was a monster against slower college players and that is in a top tier conference.  Put him in the NFL and he wasn't fast enough to do it.  If you can't time him, who do you know he isn't that fast?  The importance of the combine (mostly from a fan's standpoint) is that it is a level playing field.  It isn't watching somebody blow by a stiff CB from Chippewa State or abusing Kentucky for 93 TDs in one game (that's what it looked like in DGB's highlights).  Speed isn't even the most important of these tests, but every year I end up taking this side of the argument and I was not a blazer.  I was the guy telling everybody that it was pad speed that matters. Explosive athlete is explosive athlete. 

Well because the difference between a player who runs a 4.3 as opposed to a 4.5 over the span of 40 yards = about 3 or 4 feet maybe less. Not really that much ..... If a WR runs a 4.3 and another WR runs a 4.5 the guy with the better moves will always look faster because he's probably gained time and quickness faking out the CB. Its one of the toughest things to judge in a college player or WR for that matter because they just face crap all year long and may face 1 or 2 pro caliber CB's all season...I would guess the same applies to Edge rushers playing against elite LT's .

 

Quickness off the ball is the key for pass rushers and the 40 yard dash really does not measure quickness.

 

Yes the Combine is a tool, all I'm saying is some fans rely way too much on highlight films (that only show positive plays) and combine numbers.

[T0mShane]

Well because the difference between a player who runs a 4.3 as opposed to a 4.5 over the span of 40 yards = about 3 or 4 feet maybe less. Not really that much ..... If a WR runs a 4.3 and another WR runs a 4.5 the guy with the better moves will always look faster because he's probably gained time and quickness faking out the CB. Its one of the toughest things to judge in a college player or WR for that matter because they just face crap all year long and may face 1 or 2 pro caliber CB's all season...I would guess the same applies to Edge rushers playing against elite LT's .

Quickness off the ball is the key for pass rushers and the 40 yard dash really does not measure quickness.

Yes the Combine is a tool, all I'm saying is some fans rely way too much on highlight films (that only show positive plays) and combine numbers.

The reason Beasley was/is "rated" lower by draftniks is because he played the season weighing around 225 lbs. That he put up the scores he did at 236 is pretty significant.

[DaBallhawk]

...and when a player is beating guys because he is faster than them, it matters a great deal if he can run a 4.35 or a 4.59.  A guy like Peter Warrick was a monster against slower college players and that is in a top tier conference.  Put him in the NFL and he wasn't fast enough to do it.  If you can't time him, who do you know he isn't that fast?  The importance of the combine (mostly from a fan's standpoint) is that it is a level playing field.  It isn't watching somebody blow by a stiff CB from Chippewa State or abusing Kentucky for 93 TDs in one game (that's what it looked like in DGB's highlights).  Speed isn't even the most important of these tests, but every year I end up taking this side of the argument and I was not a blazer.  I was the guy telling everybody that it was pad speed that matters. Explosive athlete is explosive athlete. 

 

If somebody is fast, you see it on tape. You don't need to know what his 40 yard dash is because that garbage doesn't translate on the field, nobody runs like that. Running on the field is instinctive, nobody thinks about running a certain way. They just run. And not in a straight line either. The 40 yard dash is ridiculous, it has turned into a science. Weight distribution, stance, breathing pattern, hand movement, when to lift up your head, all this crap. It's just stupid. This is also why a lot of workout warriors look slow on tape/on the field. Darren McFadden ran a 4.2 I believe, the guy is slow as sh*t (considering how fast he's supposed to be). Then you have 4.5 speed guys like Darren Sproles or Devin Hester who are impossible to catch from behind. The same goes for all the other dumb drills. The bench press is another example. What does that mean? What does that prove? Nothing. All the elite linemen are somewhere in the 15-25 reps range, which is average at best. I've seen corners put up 30+ reps. It's a weightlifting contest, guys that lift a lot of weights naturally do well in this drill. Doesn't mean it translates on the field. On the field they get slapped around. Jared Allen I think had like 7 bench reps or something, it was pathetic. But he is very well known for bullrushing people, the guy is strong as an ox. In fact, go look at all the guys that put up 45-50 reps. I'd be surprised if they're still in the NFL. Let alone were able to make an impact.

 

These drills are absolutely meaningless. All they do is push great, instinctive football players down the draft boards while helping athletes/workout warriors shoot up the draft boards. I mean it's great if you don't buy into this garbage and let somebody like Oakland snatch those players up for you. Baltimore is the exact opposite, they do a great job of picking the best players, they don't get caught up in workout numbers. And hopefully Macc/Bowles handle it the same way. I don't want an athlete, I want a football player. If we're looking for a pass rusher, I don't care what his 40 yard dash is or how high he can jump, what his wonderlic is or whatever. Take the guy that showed you the most on tape, it's that simple. If he happens to run a 4.4, cool. I mean you don't trade up for him now, his value doesn't go up now. You saw how fast he is on film. Just because he ran a 4.4 doesn't mean suddenly he's even faster now. Nothing changed. It's still the same guy. And this is why this combine stuff drives me nuts. People act like suddenly those players somehow magically turned into new human beings. Oh, the guy looked so slow on tape but he just ran a 4.4, what a speed demon. Get out of here with that crap. He can run 4.4's all day, if he looks slow on tape his combine numbers won't mean sh*t. It's useless. By the time he puts the shoulder pads on and steps on a football field he goes right back to being the slow guy you saw on film, because the 40 yard dash has nothing to do with what they do on the field. Same goes for the bench press and all those other pointless drills. They don't tell you anything you wouldn't be able to figure out by watching tape on those players. So what's the point.

[T0mShane]

For those who like to mock McShay's annual idiocy, check out his reversal on Mariota/Winston. He's had Mariota as his #1 player for two years, and now he's saying how obvious it has been the whole time that Winston is the far superior player, as if the tape magically changed.

[#27TheDominator]

Well because the difference between a player who runs a 4.3 as opposed to a 4.5 over the span of 40 yards = about 3 or 4 feet maybe less. Not really that much ..... If a WR runs a 4.3 and another WR runs a 4.5 the guy with the better moves will always look faster because he's probably gained time and quickness faking out the CB. Its one of the toughest things to judge in a college player or WR for that matter because they just face crap all year long and may face 1 or 2 pro caliber CB's all season...I would guess the same applies to Edge rushers playing against elite LT's .

 

Quickness off the ball is the key for pass rushers and the 40 yard dash really does not measure quickness.

 

Yes the Combine is a tool, all I'm saying is some fans rely way too much on highlight films (that only show positive plays) and combine numbers.

 

Absolutely true.  The combine is a tool.  There are other tests beyond the 40 to judge explosiveness and change of direction.  I think the whole idea that it is meaningless because these guys spend 6 weeks getting ready is also wrong.  How well they prepare for the combine is an indicator of how well they prepare for the season.  They know millions are on the line.  If they don't take it seriously, WTF?  I certainly agree the combine isn't everything, but the idea you should ignore it and the tests is silly.  I believe Daballhawk is advocating looking solely at #thetape and totally ignore the combine and that I strongly disagree with.  The combine and workouts/pro days are particularly useful as a tool to see why guys may or may not have been successful in college.  Then you make a judgment (guess?) as to how it translates to the NFL.  

[Smashmouth]

Absolutely true.  The combine is a tool.  There are other tests beyond the 40 to judge explosiveness and change of direction.  I think the whole idea that it is meaningless because these guys spend 6 weeks getting ready is also wrong.  How well they prepare for the combine is an indicator of how well they prepare for the season.  They know millions are on the line.  If they don't take it seriously, WTF?  I certainly agree the combine isn't everything, but the idea you should ignore it and the tests is silly.  I believe Daballhawk is advocating looking solely at #thetape and totally ignore the combine and that I strongly disagree with.  The combine and workouts/pro days are particularly useful as a tool to see why guys may or may not have been successful in college.  Then you make a judgment (guess?) as to how it translates to the NFL.  

Yeah they have to take it seriously they can't just show up and tank or not be prepared and yes that probably is a factor in why these guys should show up in top shape. All Im saying is you have some fans who just blurt out these numbers or stats based off the combine and I think that's silly but I think we can both agree on that.

[HOZ THE JET]

Will Beasley be on the board at 20?

[BroadwayJets]

Im not really sold on him. What do you see that I should be looking for? 

 

I like Beasley when he rushes the passer. You know how some people talk about that "1st step"? You can't miss it with this guy. By the time the rest of the Dline is on their 2nd to 3rd step up the field, Beasley is more than halfway to the QB. The problem that I have with Beasley is that this is all I've seen. I haven't seen any coverage skills or run support. Seems like a 3rd down OLB, but a potentially great one at that. Not sure if you can invest a #6 pick into something like that, at the same time im not sure if you can pass on the best 1st step in college football and is a terror coming off the edge. I can see why people would consider Beasley at #6

 

As for Dante, I really dont know. 

I like Beasley, and I agree, his quickness may be all he has. 

 

The only 2014 game I could find of Fowler was vs Kentucky. He's powerful, he reads plays very efficiently, sure tackler and he can get around the edge and rush very well, especially from a 3-4 OLB position. He really knows how to get to the qb. As for coverage, from that game alone I couldn't gather much, as he only seemed to be covering the rb a few times and he played a few zones. Compared to Beasley he has longer arms and a few pounds on him if I'm not mistaken. I'd say his one flaw that kind of glares out at me when I watch is that he's not great against the run, he's not bad either. I'm okay with that though considering the linemen we already have. I think he's a beast, and you're definitely correct when you said people should consider Beasley, I just personally think the way Fowler plays will translate better in the NFL.

 

PS-Both AWESOME football names.

[Miss Lonelyhearts]

Dude makes back-to-back consensus all-american and people are acting like he just materialized out of nowhere at the combine. This is another easy one.

[#27TheDominator]

If somebody is fast, you see it on tape. You don't need to know what his 40 yard dash is because that garbage doesn't translate on the field, nobody runs like that. Running on the field is instinctive, nobody thinks about running a certain way. They just run. And not in a straight line either. The 40 yard dash is ridiculous, it has turned into a science. Weight distribution, stance, breathing pattern, hand movement, when to lift up your head, all this crap. It's just stupid. This is also why a lot of workout warriors look slow on tape/on the field. Darren McFadden ran a 4.2 I believe, the guy is slow as sh*t (considering how fast he's supposed to be). Then you have 4.5 speed guys like Darren Sproles or Devin Hester who are impossible to catch from behind. The same goes for all the other dumb drills. The bench press is another example. What does that mean? What does that prove? Nothing. All the elite linemen are somewhere in the 15-25 reps range, which is average at best. I've seen corners put up 30+ reps. It's a weightlifting contest, guys that lift a lot of weights naturally do well in this drill. Doesn't mean it translates on the field. On the field they get slapped around. Jared Allen I think had like 7 bench reps or something, it was pathetic. But he is very well known for bullrushing people, the guy is strong as an ox. In fact, go look at all the guys that put up 45-50 reps. I'd be surprised if they're still in the NFL. Let alone were able to make an impact.

 

These drills are absolutely meaningless. All they do is push great, instinctive football players down the draft boards while helping athletes/workout warriors shoot up the draft boards. I mean it's great if you don't buy into this garbage and let somebody like Oakland snatch those players up for you. Baltimore is the exact opposite, they do a great job of picking the best players, they don't get caught up in workout numbers. And hopefully Macc/Bowles handle it the same way. I don't want an athlete, I want a football player. If we're looking for a pass rusher, I don't care what his 40 yard dash is or how high he can jump, what his wonderlic is or whatever. Take the guy that showed you the most on tape, it's that simple. If he happens to run a 4.4, cool. I mean you don't trade up for him now, his value doesn't go up now. You saw how fast he is on film. Just because he ran a 4.4 doesn't mean suddenly he's even faster now. Nothing changed. It's still the same guy. And this is why this combine stuff drives me nuts. People act like suddenly those players somehow magically turned into new human beings. Oh, the guy looked so slow on tape but he just ran a 4.4, what a speed demon. Get out of here with that crap. He can run 4.4's all day, if he looks slow on tape his combine numbers won't mean sh*t. It's useless. By the time he puts the shoulder pads on and steps on a football field he goes right back to being the slow guy you saw on film, because the 40 yard dash has nothing to do with what they do on the field. Same goes for the bench press and all those other pointless drills. They don't tell you anything you wouldn't be able to figure out by watching tape on those players. So what's the point.

 

 

We don't agree, which is fine.  Agree to disagree and all that, but I find it odd that you list Darren McFadden as a workout warrior and Devin Hester as a guy that you would draft based on "tape".  FWIW, I think your times are off on all of them.

[The Crusher]

If we pass up Cooper, White or God forbid, Mariota for this guy I will throw my dog through my television.

This is the only thing i will NOW be thinking about on draft day.

[prime21]

Beasley and Demario would give us some nice sideline to sideline speed.   We will have to see what free agency brings us to get a better idea of what we want at #6.  .  If Percy is not retained then I say we should get White or Cooper unless they are totally sold on Mariotta being a franchise QB.  

[sirlancemehlot]

something doesn't add up. the knocks on him have been not strong enough and not big enough. He has issues against the run. Sometimes oversized tackles man handle him.

 

But he played at 222lbs, and now he's 240+???? and he benched 35 reps?? I don't get it. Those are like Joey Porter numbers. If you bench 35 reps you should be able to toss any offensive linemen around. he looks like a text book combine freak.

 

Either way, at #6 at least one of these guys will be there:  Ray, Fowler, Kevin White or Mariota. No way we take him over any of them.

 

For the record I want a draft and trade with Mariota to land us Foles.

 

The talking heads are so full of crap its funny.  I watched White fly by defenders on tape and thought the kid was exceptionally fast and athletic, only to read the knock on him was "suspect top-end speed" and "adequate speed, not a burner".  Then of course he puts up a 4.35 forty and everyone's praising his speed and saying "I knew it!"  Problem is, these guys all read the same crap and parrot it back and forth to each other.  If one source said White was cross-eyed, we'd see the same ten or so sources putting out quotes like, "the knock on White is poor peripheral vision".

[JetBlue]

The talking heads are so full of crap its funny.  I watched White fly by defenders on tape and thought the kid was exceptionally fast and athletic, only to read the knock on him was "suspect top-end speed" and "adequate speed, not a burner".  Then of course he puts up a 4.35 forty and everyone's praising his speed and saying "I knew it!"  Problem is, these guys all read the same crap and parrot it back and forth to each other.  If one source said White was cross-eyed, we'd see the same ten or so sources putting out quotes like, "the knock on White is poor peripheral vision".

Agreed; the guy doesn't have Randy Moss "elite speed" but who the hell does at that size other than Megatron?   

[T0mShane]

I just heard Mayock say that Kevin White was cross-eyed. Anyone else hear that?

[DaBallhawk]

We don't agree, which is fine.  Agree to disagree and all that, but I find it odd that you list Darren McFadden as a workout warrior and Devin Hester as a guy that you would draft based on "tape".  FWIW, I think your times are off on all of them.

 

There's nothing "odd" about that, unless you consider facts "odd". McFadden was a workout warrior, ran a 4.2, Devin Hester ran a 4.4 I believe. I find it funny that out of everything I wrote down this is the only thing you come up with to argue about.

[DaBallhawk]

I just heard Mayock say that Kevin White was cross-eyed. Anyone else hear that?

 

Seems like people are trying hard to somehow find something negative about him. I didn't notice anything to be honest, his eyes look fine to me.

[BroadwayJoe12]

That is exactly what I meant, that's exactly why the Combine is cancer to football. I really hope Bowles/Macc don't put any stock into these combine numbers or rank their board based on the combine.

If the combine didn't matter, they wouldn't have it. They need to see if the athleticism matches the tape and vice versa. It's the reason why guys like Michael Sam can win SEC DPOY and then get cut, they're not good enough athletes. It's not the only factor in the evaluative process, but to act like it doesn't matter at all is shortsighted.

[#27TheDominator]

There's nothing "odd" about that, unless you consider facts "odd". McFadden was a workout warrior, ran a 4.2, Devin Hester ran a 4.4 I believe. I find it funny that out of everything I wrote down this is the only thing you come up with to argue about.

 

I don't agree with you.  At all, about almost anything, but there is no sense arguing opinions.  OTOH, facts are facts.  McFadden ran a 4.33.  He also ran for 4,500+ yards around 5.8 ypc and 41 TDs in college.  The idea that he was a workout warrior that would not have been drafted highly without the combine is among the most misguided ideas ever floated around here. 

[DaBallhawk]

If the combine didn't matter, they wouldn't have it.

 

That's not what I said/meant. The combine should matter, if done correctly. Get your interviews done, talk to the players, pick their brains, that's about it. If you want to see somebody work out, fine. But all this can be done behind closed doors. It's become a business, that's why the NFL is milking the crap out of it, holding all these different events, different camera angles, everybody mic'd up, all this garbage. Player X ran a 4.54, is he better than Player Y who just ran a 4.53? Let's move him up! Here he is with his 2nd attempt, he ran a 4.49 now, what a beast! He's got all the tools, let's pick him in the top 10. Yeah, whatever. And just because the NFL holds the combine (the way they do) it doesn't mean it matters. The NFL Europe existed, until the NFL couldn't make money with it so they stopped doing it. It never mattered. The Combine is business, the NFL wants to make money off of it. And they do a good job with that.

[Jetster]

Typical combine talk.

When you're a bad azz athlete & proving it over & over, that's the only thing the scouts are really looking at.

Just look at how much Mariota was being torn down, average arm strength, 1st read QB, blah, blah, blah!

Tearing the good ones down is what they try to do. Coopers smooth as a babys azz & he's gonna be a stud!

After watching Mariota in the combine, I don't even WANT to trade him to Philly!

F*ck that! change the damn offense to a spread with Geno running the show & bring Mariota along slowly in the same damn offense!

Fix the defensive secondary & let Chan be creative.

Let's do a damn 180 with this Jets team.

[Smashmouth]

That's not what I said/meant. The combine should matter, if done correctly. Get your interviews done, talk to the players, pick their brains, that's about it. If you want to see somebody work out, fine. But all this can be done behind closed doors. It's become a business, that's why the NFL is milking the crap out of it, holding all these different events, different camera angles, everybody mic'd up, all this garbage. Player X ran a 4.54, is he better than Player Y who just ran a 4.53? Let's move him up! Here he is with his 2nd attempt, he ran a 4.49 now, what a beast! He's got all the tools, let's pick him in the top 10. Yeah, whatever. And just because the NFL holds the combine (the way they do) it doesn't mean it matters. The NFL Europe existed, until the NFL couldn't make money with it so they stopped doing it. It never mattered. The Combine is business, the NFL wants to make money off of it. And they do a good job with that.

Hawk if this is the way your thinking then fine but I don't think advanced NFL scouts are completely relying on the combine ...My argument was the Fans were relying on the combine . Scouts know exactly who they want prior to the combine and IMHO scouts who rely too much on it are lazy and don't do their jobs. Its also a chance for GM's and HC's to get a glimpse of players their scouts have been touting for months . The combine has its uses so don't just completely dismiss it. 

 

The only time I completely dismiss the combine is when a poster makes it a point to say "hey look at that guys Combine numbers" that's when it becomes meaningless.

[DaBallhawk]

Hawk if this is the way your thinking then fine but I don't think advanced NFL scouts are completely relying on the combine ...My argument was the Fans were relying on the combine . Scouts know exactly who they want prior to the combine and IMHO scouts who rely too much on it are lazy and don't do their jobs. Its also a chance for GM's and HC's to get a glimpse of players their scouts have been touting for months . The combine has its uses so don't just completely dismiss it. 

 

The only time I completely dismiss the combine is when a poster makes it a point to say "hey look at that guys Combine numbers" that's when it becomes meaningless.

 

I don't think they're relying 110% on combine performances only. I mean obviously they don't. But guys like Stephen Hill are a perfect example of what my point was. Scouts, GM's etc. sometimes do exactly that, they pick somebody just based on what they did at the combine and the upside they see. Because somebody like Hill has shown absolutely nothing expect for his ability to run fast. If not for his combine performance he probably would have gone somewhere in the 5th or 6th round. A situational guy, deep threat, to stretch the field, at best. But because of his combine numbers he goes in round 2 ahead of stud receivers like Jeffery that actually have tape to back up what they bring to the table.

 

But I agree with you, the Scouts (Raiders are a perfect example) that rely too much on combine numbers just don't do their job properly. They should be flying around the country and study the players and then rank them. The combine is a nice bonus but if you move a guy up or down based on their vertical, wonderlic, whatever, then you make a big mistake.

[LAD_Brooklyn]

I watched him during his time in school, and just watched a 10 minute highlight reel on him. He doesn't manhandle linemen in the way you would expect a guy who puts up 35 reps. That's all I'm saying. Every year there are combine freaks. He hits me as one. Much prefer Ray over him.

But no knows for sure until he actually plays in the NFL.

 

What ever clip your watching it's not him at his combine weight of 246lbs. Last year he played only 230. At that size your not benching 35 reps.

[jetsrebirth]

I think we should just keep taking as many Defensive players as possible, screw offense. Our new strategy should be to try to win games 2-0. Screw offense, its vastly overrated to be able to score points, lets just keep putting our best resources into the defensive side of the ball forever.