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2015 Mets thread!

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Everyone thought Jeffries was a hitter.  They thought he had an elite swing.  They thought he was going to be a star.

 

BTW, I think Conforto is gonna be good.

Jefferies was a mental midget. An immature kid who didnt earn his stripes and thought more of himself than most veterans did on the squad.

To compare Jefferies to Conforto is flawed. Grgg was drafted out of high school and was pampered through a system of Mets control. Confront played in college, demonstrated what he could do at a all levels, and shows no effects of immaturity. 

Baseball has a very mental aspect to it, and to compare Jeffries to Conforto is worlds apart

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Cespedes.

And that may happen on a short deal, if the Mets reason they want to.

How many teams have been falling over themselves on Cespedes this offseason? Ever think why that may be?

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Eh, this whole thing is so flawed. The Mets have a low payroll because their entire starting rotation is on rookie deals. Really not much more to it than that.

While that may be mathematically true, they are one of the teams that publically announces each season that they won't be spending  xyz dollars and it has been that way prior to this current group of rookie SP deals.  It works now or at least it did last season because we have an elite young salary controlled staff.

 

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While that may be mathematically true, they are one of the teams that publically announces each season that they won't be spending  xyz dollars and it has been that way prior to this current group of rookie SP deals.  It works now or at least it did last season because we have an elite young salary controlled staff.

 

Hard to argue with the results of a team arcing upwards.

If the Mets do not win a World Series over the course of the next 3 seasons, they probably failed their plan

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While that may be mathematically true, they are one of the teams that publically announces each season that they won't be spending  xyz dollars and it has been that way prior to this current group of rookie SP deals.  It works now or at least it did last season because we have an elite young salary controlled staff.

 

Eh. We'll see. Look at what pitching costs these days. It's going to cost half a billion dollars to keep the big three. Any huge deals right now put that in jeopardy. The Mets tried to spend within that with Zobrist and it didn't work out. No big deal. Seems like they're willing to spend for the right guys at the right position but won't overpay otherwise. I'm cool with that and Alderson has more than earned the benefit of the doubt.

It's also worth noting that any of this criticism is way premature. FA isn't over yet by any means and by literally every single source the Mets are still pursuing people.

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Jefferies was a mental midget. An immature kid who didnt earn his stripes and thought more of himself than most veterans did on the squad.

To compare Jefferies to Conforto is flawed. Grgg was drafted out of high school and was pampered through a system of Mets control. Confront played in college, demonstrated what he could do at a all levels, and shows no effects of immaturity. 

Baseball has a very mental aspect to it, and to compare Jeffries to Conforto is worlds apart

SO I have a friend who was a pitcher on the Phillies back then.

Jefferies got hit by a pitch, and started a fight.  Everyone crowded around, but even the Mets were yelling for the Phillie to kick his ass.

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Jefferies was a mental midget. An immature kid who didnt earn his stripes and thought more of himself than most veterans did on the squad.

To compare Jefferies to Conforto is flawed. Grgg was drafted out of high school and was pampered through a system of Mets control. Confront played in college, demonstrated what he could do at a all levels, and shows no effects of immaturity. 

Baseball has a very mental aspect to it, and to compare Jeffries to Conforto is worlds apart

Jeffries actually turned into a pretty good hitter, look at his 93-95, he was brought up too early but in looking back he wasn't the failure that is perceived.

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Jeffries actually turned into a pretty good hitter, look at his 93-95, he was brought up too early but in looking back he wasn't the failure that is perceived.

Hey, he stuck around the majors for over 10 year, and hit 289 for his career. 

But everyone (at least early on) hated him.

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Hey, he stuck around the majors for over 10 year, and hit 289 for his career. 

But everyone (at least early on) hated him.

I hated him in 1988 when he blew the playoffs vs. the Dodgers. Scrub ass douchebag.

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SNY.tv takes a look at the numbers of outfielder Alejandro De Aza as part of its Stats and Facts series.

The Mets are close to signing free agent OF Alejandro De Aza, according to Ken Rosenthal (Dec. 22).

De Aza, 31, hit .262 with a .333 OBP and .422 SLG while playing for the Orioles, Red Sox, and Giants in 2015.

Against right-handers, De Aza hit .278 with a .351 OBP and .448 SLG.

Andrew Vazzano, SNY.TV Facebook | Twitter | Instagram

I'm going to assume (hope?) that this moves Kirk Nieuwenhuis down a peg on the depth chart. If De Aza is taking his spot as the fifth outfielder type, I think this is an obvious upgrade.

He doesn't have a ton of experience in center field, so I don't see them sketching hi, out as Juan Lagares' platoon-mate.

This is a perfectly harmless, small depth addition. He can play in the corners, spell Curtis Granderson or Michael Conforto as needed and start every once in a while in a pinch.

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I think the Flores and Tejada things are expected to be non-issues by the time they're supposed to be in St. Lucie. Then again I'm not sure I have any faith in the Mets med staff, so who knows.

He is not a centerfielder so I have to assume no

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The point about the Mets payroll being low because of the rookie pitchers is well taken but imo they aren't going to sign them anyways for market prices. I can't see the Wilpons giving Harvey 30 million a season. At present he won't be a free agent until 2019 but is arbitration eligible. I see the Mets basically drafting pitchers and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle again. And letting these guys go when their contracts are up. The other argument is that the low pitcher deals allows them to spend more on impact position players and they haven't. They are signing middle to lower tier guys like De Aza who is a good player but never been a starter in his MLB career except for one season with the CWS. I like this signing because at least it's something which is better than nothing. 

 

Edited by Rangers9

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http://www.vocativ.com/news/262818/the-new-york-mets-operate-like-a-ponzi-scheme/

 

It’s hard to overstate the opportunity the New York Mets currently enjoy. It’s no less hard to overstate the absurdity of how little they are doing to capitalize on it.

The Mets own the rights to the finest young stable of starting pitchers in baseball. Further, thanks to the strange economics of baseball—under which a player earns little more than the league minimum for his first three years and then enters a controlled arbitration process that limits raises for three years after that—the Mets’ quartet of great young hurlers will never be less expensive than they are now. The four—Matt Harvey, Jacob deGrom, Noah Syndergaard and Steven Matz, plus homegrown closer Jeurys Familia—will make around $9.5 million next year.

Considering how much it costs to buy pitching on the free agent market—the San Francisco Giants, for example, have a starting five that will cost $70,616,666 next season—this theoretically frees up the Mets to leverage their young, cost-controlled pitching with enough offense to dominate baseball for the foreseeable future.

But that’s not how this is going down. Because the New York Mets’ owners, Fred Wilpon and Saul Katz, are drowning in debt.

2015_12_21-BTNMets.png

Back in 2008, the team’s investments with Ponzi schemer Bernie Madoff were discovered to be a fraud. More than $500 million in assets Wilpon and Katz thought they had—and had borrowed against—vanished. Accordingly, just to stay afloat, they needed to take out a $430 million loan against the team and $450 million against their majority ownership stake in SNY (a network started with a loan from Madoff, incidentally).

Ever since, the Mets have managed to get by annually by diverting revenue from their baseball and television operation into the financing of debt. Prior to the refinancing of the past two years, the annual interest on these two loans plus debt balloon payments of more than $43 million have exceeded team payroll itself.

The refinancing of the two loans has extended their due dates out five years, so this arrangement is set to continue for a long time to come. And the debt balloon payments run until December 2045, when currently youthful pitching ace Steven Matz will be 54 years old.

You can add in the settlement of the lawsuit brought by the trustee for the Bernie Madoff victims, Irving Picard. He sued Mets ownership, asserting they “knew or should have known” Madoff was a fraud. Ultimately, he settled with them once he determined that even if he won, Wilpon and Katz didn’t have the money to pay him. The settlement calls for payments in 2016 and 2017 that as of now come out to about $30 million each year.

That such an arrangement is not in the best interests of baseball cannot be debated. Fred Wilpon, in what was his most recent press conference back in February 2013, happily acknowledged having diverted revenue toward both corporate and family debt. This is precisely what led MLB to strip Dodgers’ ownership from Frank McCourt, but then-Commissioner Bud Selig instead empowered Wilpon and even provided an MLB loan. Selig then looked the other way when Wilpon didn’t pay it back on time.

Selig’s successor, Rob Manfred, has so far been unwilling to do anything about the arrangement either, noting recently that MLB teams ought to spend commensurate with their marketplace, but calling the fact that the Kansas City Royals have a higher payroll than the Mets a “fun fact.” Kansas City has a population one-fifteenth the size of New York City’s.

Meanwhile, the very best offensive free agents on the market, like Jason Heyward, are headed elsewhere. Yoenis Cespedes, the team’s best offensive player during their magical late-season run to the World Series, has been described as too expensive by team officials. Second baseman Daniel Murphy, the team’s best hitter in the postseason, has also been deemed too expensive. Instead, the Mets filled their hole at second base by trading Jon Niese, who provided pitching depth, for Neil Walker. That deal allowed the Mets to add a second baseman at revenue-neutral prices.

This off-season as a whole is a refutation of the public line by Wilpon and other senior officials that, should more revenue come to the Mets, they’d pass it on to consumers in the form of raising payroll. Per Forbes revenue estimates, the Mets were 27th out of 30 MLB teams in percentage of revenue spent on payroll last season. That was before the 2015 World Series run.

2015-12-21_Mets_1.png

And yet, while estimates of their postseason revenue alone range from $45-60 million and attendance increased by 19.6 percent, along with ratings on SNY having reached rough parity with the Yankees (meaning the network can charge more for advertising) there’s no sign that virtually any of this money is going back into the team. As of now, the team’s free agent moves—re-signing Jerry Blevins and Bartolo Colon to one-year deals, and adding Asdrubal Cabrera on a two-year deal—are largely paid for in 2016 payroll by the unexpected retirement of Michael Cuddyer.

There’s no one to answer for this. Jeff Wilpon, team COO, hasn’t made himself available to a reporter since he was sued for sexually harassing a pregnant employee, Leigh Castergine, even though the suit has since been settled. Fred doesn’t talk on the record, either. The general manager, Sandy Alderson, is undergoing treatment for cancer. And the acting public face of the Mets, John Ricco, “doesn’t even know what the payroll is,” as one reporter familiar with the team put it.

So the Mets have been blessed with a once in a generation baseball opportunity while being cursed by the ownership of Wilpon and Katz, multiple-time victims of Ponzi schemes. Given how the team’s finances currently work, it appears they’re now running a Ponzi scheme of their own.

 

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Some people say that the Mets are doing what the Royals did last off season. Signing good players to fill out the roster but not hundred million contracts (with dead years: in other words multiple year deals beyond when the player can contribute). Plus last season like the Mets the Royals traded for players like Zobrist to booster the team in a playoff race. It's definitely way better than last off season. And if we go into 2016 with an MLB bench unlike last year (but without an impact bat) we're still ahead of the curve. That is until July and the pennant stretch race. But who's saying the Mets can't trade again for a big bat and buy offense fort half a season. Maybe we can even trade for Cespedes again :P.

Edited by Rangers9

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It's interesting that the article posted above by JohnnyHector beats the Mets up for not signing Murphy or Cespedes yet no one else in MLB has rushed to do so at those prices.

Wilpon's are what they are...in debt. It would be great if MLB forced them to sell the team but I don't see that happening fresh off a WS appearance.

The article otherwise stretches facts like Cuddyer's  freed up money largely paying for all their off season signings thus far. It also implies that the Niese for Walker trade was less than impressive when at the end of the day they got a cheaper and better all around second baseman than what they would have had in Murphy for a mediocre pitcher not in their future plans.

It also fails to mention that Harvey is arbitration eligible when comparing our SP's salaries to the Giants ( while only comparing our top 4 SP's dollars to the Giants full staff of 5) which is silly anyway in that San Fran just won a few World Series and should be spending on their staff  because around 33 of that 70 mill dedicated towards starting pitching is owed to Matt Cain and Jake Peavy.  Hello?? They best be signing the Cueto's and Samardzija's of free agency.

 The Mets could also lock up two or three of their young SP's to long  term deals ( as unlikely as that sounds) making the article even weaker. That article would have been perfect this time last season but not now. The Mets have an average to above average player at every starting position while also having the resources in spades to acquire whatever they need prior to next seasons trade deadline.

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I hated him in 1988 when he blew the playoffs vs. the Dodgers. Scrub ass douchebag.

.333 avg in the playoffs, but somehow it's his fault?

How about Fernandez or Darling?

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It's interesting that the article posted above by JohnnyHector beats the Mets up for not signing Murphy or Cespedes yet no one else in MLB has rushed to do so at those prices.

Wilpon's are what they are...in debt. It would be great if MLB forced them to sell the team but I don't see that happening fresh off a WS appearance.

The article otherwise stretches facts like Cuddyer's  freed up money largely paying for all their off season signings thus far. It also implies that the Niese for Walker trade was less than impressive when at the end of the day they got a cheaper and better all around second baseman than what they would have had in Murphy for a mediocre pitcher not in their future plans.

It also fails to mention that Harvey is arbitration eligible when comparing our SP's salaries to the Giants ( while only comparing our top 4 SP's dollars to the Giants full staff of 5) which is silly anyway in that San Fran just won a few World Series and should be spending on their staff  because around 33 of that 70 mill dedicated towards starting pitching is owed to Matt Cain and Jake Peavy.  Hello?? They best be signing the Cueto's and Samardzija's of free agency.

 The Mets could also lock up two or three of their young SP's to long  term deals ( as unlikely as that sounds) making the article even weaker. That article would have been perfect this time last season but not now. The Mets have an average to above average player at every starting position while also having the resources in spades to acquire whatever they need prior to next seasons trade deadline.

There's no reason for the Mets to lock up the pitchers now. 

Free agency 

Harvey after 18

Wheeler after 19

deGrom after 20

Thor after 21

Matz after 21

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De Aza does not make sense to me- he really is not a centerfielder to platoon with Lagares. why the rush to sign him anyway teams are not knocking themselves over to get him. The budget conscious Mets are so frustrating

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Look, the Mets are going to be limited in FA this year. The Wilpons have like a $40 million Madoff payment coming up. I think this year drew a bunch of people back into the Mets who hadn't been paying the closest attention the past 4-5 years, so they're expecting the Mets to go all in and go for it because of their success this season. Truth of the matter is that between the Madoff sh*t and Alderson's style, that's not the Mets and that's not how we've built this team back up. Every now and then they'll make a Granderson or Bartolo move, but those are few and far between. If we spend on anything, I suspect it will be for a bullpen, where Sandy made an endless barrage of trades this year and still came up short. So expect us to be in the running for guys like O'Day or maybe even a trade like Uehara.

Do not expect Zobrist or Kendrick. The Mets want Herrera playing second. I would not get my hopes up for Rasmus either. Maaaaybe they resign Ces, but that's 50/50.

One other related problem is the Mets are stuck in a bit of limbo. They have a handful of really good prospects that are still probably a year or two away (Rosario, Smith...etc), so they have to decide how worth it it is to go after long-term deals for positions that will be filled by the end of 2017 by kids who are not only very good but that they've also invested a ton of time and money into already.

Hate to say I told you so....

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De Aza does not make sense to me- he really is not a centerfielder to platoon with Lagares. why the rush to sign him anyway teams are not knocking themselves over to get him. The budget conscious Mets are so frustrating

Outfield depth to replace Cuddyer and an extra bat against righties for the dog days of summer. I don't think this really changes anything re: Span or Parra. I certainly hope not, at least.

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The Mets have an average to above average player at every starting position

I would argue this statement, but even if I conceded it to be true, you simply can't expect to win when your entire team is made up of "average to above average" players at every position, without elite or near-elite ones sprinkled in.  Granderson (a guy who slashed .227/.326/.388 the year before last) is by far the best position player on the team going into next year and there's a considerable dropoff after him (at least the 2015 version).

The Wilpons past greed and stupidity will lead to them squandering the years when they have great, young, cost-controlled SP's by not surrounding them with a winning lineup (or bullpen).  I will continue to support the team, but this is precisely why I continue my financial boycott, as I don't want my money financing their loan repayments instead of going to the team.

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Outfield depth to replace Cuddyer and an extra bat against righties for the dog days of summer. I don't think this really changes anything re: Span or Parra. I certainly hope not, at least.

I am skeptical they are going to add Span or Parra to the roster but I will wait and see.

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I am skeptical they are going to add Span or Parra to the roster but I will wait and see.

I don't know. They were in the bidding for Zobrist so clearly Alderson still has some budget left to go. Whether he uses that up now or waits to see what's available at the trade deadline, I have no idea. Metsblog reported the other day that the Span meeting was set for after New Years so we'll see.

 

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I would argue this statement, but even if I conceded it to be true, you simply can't expect to win when your entire team is made up of "average to above average" players at every position, without elite or near-elite ones sprinkled in.  Granderson (a guy who slashed .227/.326/.388 the year before last) is by far the best position player on the team going into next year and there's a considerable dropoff after him (at least the 2015 version).

The Wilpons past greed and stupidity will lead to them squandering the years when they have great, young, cost-controlled SP's by not surrounding them with a winning lineup (or bullpen).  I will continue to support the team, but this is precisely why I continue my financial boycott, as I don't want my money financing their loan repayments instead of going to the team.

3/5 of the staff is made up of elite SP's with two more that possibly will join them at that level in the near future.  The closer is top notch as well and the pen should be strong.

Again, I agree with you and would love it if they locked up Cespedes today but the line-up as is will win with this staff barring major injuries.

There is also nothing to imply that they can't use the same deadline formula that they did last season to add that big bat that they need. 2016's opening day roster is head and shoulders above last seasons.

Unless ownership sells the team, we are stuck with this model of building a team and you have every right to boycott attending games until that changes. I am just pointing out that the roster is not as bad as a lot of fans make it out to be. Me and you along with a host of other fans would sign Cespedes and feel that we are NL Pennant favorites......unfortunately we don't get to make that decision.

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I like that signing, provided it doesn't mean we're avoiding a guy like Span, Parra or Fowler.  Doesn't sound like we are.

whoop de do...this coming year's lineup will be like last year's lineup BEFORE Cespedes.

Edited by Powpow

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We lost our best two bats off of our post season roster so you can't say the Mets are improved. Plus we had to trade Niese who gave us some good innnings in order to get Walker. They are better than our opening day roster of 2015. And if Wheeler comes back and maybe even Mejia that is significant, too. Btw the Mets did give de Aza a good amount of money for a 300 at bat guy, over 5 mil with incentives. 

Edited by Rangers9

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whoop de do...this coming year's lineup will be like last year's lineup BEFORE Cespedes.

There are no Eric Campbell's in next year's lineup. Who should we have signed?

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There are no Eric Campbell's in next year's lineup. Who should we have signed?

I was hoping they would have signed Upton for CF or traded for Carlos Gonzalez.  Trading for a better defensive SS prospect would have been smart, since defensively, this infield still has holes.  Walker was a nice trade. He's a scrappy guy with much better range and defensive skills than Murph who was just awful.  They have a lot of bargaining chips in the minors. Now is the time to strike with the surplus of elite young pitching at hand.   

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Gonzalez is affordable. He has two seasons remaining at 17 and 20 and all of his bonus money has been paid out. http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/colorado-rockies/carlos-gonzalez/ Boras is his agent but the deal is done and you aren't committed to years after he is over the hill. The thing you're obviously concerned with with Cargo are his home  and away splits. And his power production away from Coors Field. In 2015 he hit .299 at home and .243 on the road. He hit a total of 40 Hrs. better than Cespedes. 24 Hrs at Coors Field and 16 away. 

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Gonzalez is affordable. He has two seasons remaining at 17 and 20 and all of his bonus money has been paid out. http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/colorado-rockies/carlos-gonzalez/ Boras is his agent but the deal is done and you aren't committed to years after he is over the hill. The thing you're obviously concerned with with Cargo are his home  and away splits. And his power production away from Coors Field. In 2015 he hit .299 at home and .243 on the road. He hit a total of 40 Hrs. better than Cespedes. 24 Hrs at Coors Field and 16 away. 

Did not understand the De Aza move. Hoping that there is another OF move to come. Other than that, this team is ready to go.

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