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A Decade Later; How does Mangini sit with you?

Paradis

By Paradis
in NY Jets Forum

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#27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

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You are allowed any criteria by which you would like, I disagree with your criteria. Rex lucked out, once the luck was gone, the true Rex has showed his colors, and they are not pretty.

I could not disagree more with the bold. It had EVERYTHING to do with Rex, EVERYTHING. He called all the shots up until 2012, Tannenbaum was his b!tch. Idzik was only in because no competent GM would even take the interview knowing Rex was a part of the deal. Idzik was the best of the ones who did. Rex shaped the franchise from 09-2012 the way HE wanted to build a team, with what HE thought was important. All he cared about was HIS defense, at the expense of everything else. He is 100% responsible for the state of the team when he left, the only one more responsible is Woody, for keeping that jackass clown for 2 more years and forcing Idzik on the franchise by insisting Rex stay and not leaving that decision to a competent football person.

If you want to re-write history as far as why BB left, and why Groh left, and why few coaches wanted the job, knock yourself out. I am not going to debate you when there is well documented history that clearly goes against what you are preaching.

So you give Rex credit for all the cap space that Maccagnan had?

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Jet Nut

Jet Nut

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Rex is definitely flawed, something I said many, many times while allegedly praising him right up until the end. He needs to be working for a strong GM and have at least one enforcer-like assistant working for him to have success. 

Mangini isn't flawed, he's terrible. He may be smart, but he's unimaginative. His whole philosophy was just don't make mistakes, and every play on both sides of the ball was played from fear of making a mistake. Couldn't've been more vanilla. That's how he was boring, and his teams were boring. You can't compare Landry or Belichick's coaching style to his. Mangini now is praying that Chip Kelly keeps him on because no one else wants him. He's just a bad coach. 

At least Rex was an established coordinator. Herm was a DB coach, and Mangini had one year as Belichick's puppet as a DC. Herm and Mangini were both terrible choices, both at the time and in retrospect. 

I cant ever remember anyone, anywhere, fans, media or so called experts complaining about Herm or Mangini.  None of us thought Mangini was in over his head when he won.  When we called him Manginious.  To me his biggest issue was dealing with people and pissing off his owner.  

Just as no one takes anything away from Shula and all his wins for going from DB coach to HC.  Or Pete Carrol for what thats worth.  Plus Herm came in and had immediate success.  He left because the team was aging and he thought that he would have better talent in KC.  

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jetrider

jetrider

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What was Rex's excuse this year with the Bills? He had the number 4 defense from the year before, why couldn't he live up to his own words this year if he is such a defensive mastermind?

Without taking sides, no matter how you dice it, slice it, shake it, or bake it, when it mattered most Rex outcoached Bowles and ended our season this year.

His team was ready; ours wasn't. 

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sirlancemehlot

sirlancemehlot

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Res ipsa loquitur. The guy went on to be a disaster in Cleveland and hasn't been remotely considered for another HC job since. Pretty sure we made the right call on that one. 

Which coach has actually been successful in that black hole?  Not saying Mangini is any good, but the Cleveland gig is where coaches go to die.  Even a HOF coach like Belly couldn't do squat with franchise.

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Jetsfan80

Jetsfan80

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Which coach has actually been successful in that black hole?  Not saying Mangini is any good, but the Cleveland gig is where coaches go to die.  Even a HOF coach like Belly couldn't do squat with franchise.

It's a fair point, but Mangini hasn't been able to move up much in his gigs of late, proving maybe he's a Peter Principle guy.  He needs to work some miracles with that Niners D, especially with Chip Kelly entering the picture, if he ever wants another HC job. 

It wasn't like he just failed purely because he was in Cleveland.  When he took that job he immediately made a hatchet job of anything positive in that franchise's entire culture, turning it into a miserable place to try to be a professional athlete.  That's not a HC.  He's just the opposite side of the same coin as Rex, and equally incapable of being a HC.  He uses too much authority, Rex not enough. 

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T0mShane

T0mShane

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Funny, I feel the exact opposite about Woody's problems.  The headhunter that they used to hire Idzik was Jed Hughes who coached both in college and the pros and placed plenty of people at major colleges and has worked fairly extensively with pro teams. 

My big problem with him has been his taking a fear of not throwing out the baby with the bathwater to the extreme. He forced Bradway and scouts on all of his GMs.  He forced Schottenheimer on Rex and Rex on Idzik.  It ****ed up the power structure and made it difficult to assign blame. I think some of it probably stemmed from a reliance on Parcells and Parcells people.  Parcells is a true Hall of Famer and excellent resource, but that has to have some diminishing returns as he was giving advice and recommendations to Dallas and the Dolphins. 

Like Hue Jackson and Mike Zimmer found out, the hiring process for NFL coaches is a lot more about public relations than it is about merit. Even Rex admitted as such when discussing why Rob Ryan never gets interviews. 

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drdetroit

drdetroit

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You are mistaking me saying Mangini was better than Rex and Herm with saying Mangini was good, there is a big difference. I thought Herm was a total moron for changing from a a very good 3-4 personnel team to a Tampa 2, and I thought Mangini should not have made the change either. That said, Herm took over a far better team than Mangini did.

Favre did not look the same in December as he did in September. Favre in December looked like he did not belong in the NFL, he threw 1 TD and 6 int's against mediocre at best teams. He was HORRID. He looked as though he was actually trying to throw the ball to the opponent more than his own teammates. He was either hurt badly, or trying to end the season as quickly as possible to go to the Vikings as soon as possible, or both.

Mangini is better than no one except maybe Kotite

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Bugg

Bugg

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1. look we don't know that Herm was forced on us.  Seriously doubt that the Jets wanted some white guy and the league told them NO, hire a black guy.  They've wanted to increase the number of minority hires, agree, but forced him on us?  Add in he was highly regarded as an assistant everywhere he coached?  Plus admit, who wasn't impressed and fired up when he was initially hired. He ran out on us but he wasn't a god awful pick to be HC.

3. Hate this line of reasoning for lots of reasons.  For one you're saying we'll pick a HC based on what another team thinks.  Never mind that they picked one of the better HCs.  Doesn't mean the guy they passed over can't be good.  If you Shula and Parcells as assistants and passed on Parcells for Shila Parcells would be a bad hire?  

We've missed the ultimate goal with all 3 but doesn't make them stupid hires.  

Edwards had gone through some NFL minority coaches program, Marv Lewis had not. So we took a middling DB coach over the DC of the eventual Super Bowl winner a week before the Super Bowl. And also over John Fox, who was DC of the NFC champs. Either were more accomplished before and since than play to win the game guy, who's career has been mostly a disaster. Tagliabue took Johnson's bid over a higher bid by the Dolan gang. Do the math.

 

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nyjunc

nyjunc

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Edwards had gone through some NFL minority coaches program, Marv Lewis had not. So we took a middling DB coach over the DC of the eventual Super Bowl winner a week before the Super Bowl. And also over John Fox, who was DC of the NFC champs. Either were more accomplished before and since than play to win the game guy, who's career has been mostly a disaster. Tagliabue took Johnson's bid over a higher bid by the Dolan gang. Do the math.

 

Lewis didn't interview w/ us and neither did Fox.

if Tagliabue gave woody the team over Dolan w/ a lesser offer we should all be kissing his behind.  Imagine what would have happened if Dolan was our owner? he's the worst owner in sports.

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Bugg

Bugg

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Lewis didn't interview w/ us and neither did Fox.

if Tagliabue gave woody the team over Dolan w/ a lesser offer we should all be kissing his behind.  Imagine what would have happened if Dolan was our owner? he's the worst owner in sports.

 

Which speaks to exactly what a lemming Woody Johnson is. So you hire some fast-talking moron DB coach  because the Commissioner asks you to rather than even interview  prominent accomplished coordinators. Dick Curl much? 

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nyjunc

nyjunc

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Which speaks to exactly what a lemming Woody Johnson is. So you hire some fast-talking moron DB coach  because the Commissioner asks you to rather than even interview  prominent accomplished coordinators. Dick Curl much? 

that is complete myth, they didn't want to wait for the SB coordinators.  and you'd be ok w/ Marvin lewis never winning a playoff game?  do we forget Herm led us to only our 2nd EVER AFC East title and the ONLY non Pats AFC east title in a year Brady was primary starter for NE. 

you only know Dick Curl's name b/c of the lunacy of message boards blaming him for clock mnmt issues as if every team doesn't have clock mgmt issues. 

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#27TheDominator

#27TheDominator

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This is how that useless ****sucker sits with me.  Like the very worst of every coach I ever played for.   Book by Nate Jackson, not me. 

But by the time I arrive in Cleveland, the mystique of the NFL has vanished. My eyes and ears are open. From the blow of the morning practice's first air horn, I know I'm in a strange place. Warm-ups are usually very relaxed. They are designed to get the player's body warmed up, and everywhere I have ever played, the coaches have allowed us to warm up at our own pace, as long as we are ready to practice hard once warm-ups were over. But here in Cleveland, warm-ups are frantic and explosive. There are coaches barking orders and players are running through bags like Navy SEALs.

—Get your knees up!

—Keep that ball high and tight!

—Come on! Let's go! Let's go!

Oh, brother. This is not good.

As a veteran player gets on in age, he loses his patience for rah-rah rituals that he knows are worthless. Grown men with refined football skills do not need to be goaded and harangued. Football is brutal enough without someone yelling at you. And if you make it to the NFL, you're a self-starter. It isn't high school. You aren't dealing with children. Nobody told that to Mangina.

Practice is long and physical. I spend it standing next to my new tight end coach trying to pick up on the terminology. The Browns offense, led by another former Patriots coach/Brady jockstrap carrier, offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, is complicated and seems to have no rhyme or reason: arbitrary names for strange concepts. But I have been in the same west-coast offense since Menlo College. I am used to that language. And this system is an entirely different language, so of course it will sound like arbitrary names for strange concepts. But this is the end of training camp. People should know their sh*t by now. When I ask my new teammates to explain something to me, though, they just shrug.

—sh*t, I don't know what to tell you, Nate.

If they don't know it, I'm in trouble.

I play some scout team offense and do okay. But I'm rusty. I was training hard in San Diego, but I wasn't playing football. My run-blocking technique has fallen to sh*t. I'm not a natural tight end, so for me to be a good blocker, I have to work on that technique every day. The only way to do that is to practice in pads. As horrible as it is strapping up every day and banging heads, it's the only way for a guy like me to have a chance at blocking three-hundred- pound athletes. I have to knock the rust off quickly.

Meanwhile, I'm catching some weird vibes around the building. Things feel off. I'm focused on learning the system as fast as I can, so I don't have a lot of time for psychoanalysis, but it's hard to miss. To a man, the entire Browns team seems to be deep in despair. There is a natural sluggishness that occurs during training camp, but this is something different. The men seem positively broken. They have no fight left in them. The locker room is quiet, so quiet. In Denver, even in the midst of training camp, the locker room was lively and social. Cleveland is a mausoleum. That night at my first team meeting, I learn why.

As I sit down in the emptiest seat I can find, I notice that players have handwritten notes scattered about their desks and their laps. They are reading over them nervously. Coach Mangini, a doughy thirty-eight- year- old frat boy with parted hair and a butt-chin, walks in and takes his place at the podium, a dip in his lip and a Styrofoam cup in his hand. He starts off by welcoming the two new men who were signed to the team that morning: me and some other dude.

Then:

—To show them how we do things around here, J.P., stand up. J.P. stands.

—There is a quote written above the door to the locker room; what does it say? —Uh, you must choose: the pain of discipline or the pain of regret.

—Very good. You can sit down. Clarence, stand up.

—Sheeit.

He says it under his breath. Muffled chuckles from the audience.

—We have six core values on this team; what are they?

—Damn. Okay, um, trust, communication . . . um, hard work . . . umm . . .

Someone whispers from behind him.

—Focus!

—That's right, Clarence, focus. Okay, two more. Silence. —Come on, Clarence . . . Can anyone help him out? From somewhere:

—Intelligence.

—Football is important to you.

—Good. Clarence, you gotta know these. And I'm going to keep calling on you until you do. Sit down. B.J., stand up. Tell me the name and number of every offensive lineman on our roster.

B.J. was a rookie defensive back and rattled them off like a pro.

—Okay, good. Very good.

Then Mangini presses play on the video system and footage of the morning's warm-ups come onto the screen. He had the warm-ups filmed and the tape cut up and cued up for the meeting. He launches into a biting critique of each player's warm-up performance, excoriating certain players for not having a sense of urgency during the drills, and referring again and again to the mantras that are written in big block letters around the facility. He preaches the importance of living by their words, and humiliates the most glaring examples of those who aren't.

—You must choose, the pain of discipline or the pain of regret.

—Every battle is won before it is ever fought.

—Don't sacrifice what you want most for what you want now.

And on the training room wall, "Durability is more important than Ability." As if the injured guys don't feel bad enough already. Might as well say, "If you're reading this, you're a pussy." That's what all the notes are. People are making sure they have these ******* mantras memorized. What the **** is going on here? When the meeting breaks, I track down a fellow tight end.

—Is he serious?

—Yes, dude. Dead serious.

Aside from the food, which is delicious, Cleveland is hell. Practices are long and tense and confusing. Meetings are confusing. There are "voluntary" meeting sessions for rookies and new guys, called "Football School," which are also confusing. The players are depressed, myself included. Also my body feels awful. The first few days of practice were okay but by the third day I feel like I'll snap at any moment. My knee is bothering me for no reason. My hamstring and hips are tight. And to top it off, I have absolutely no idea what is going on in the offense. It is a completely foreign language. And no one is teaching it to me. My only chance is to get in good with the special teams coach, and he can't be bothered. It's strange that I'm even here.

Luckily, there's a game to prepare for that breaks the spell of practice hell. I had arrived on Monday morning, practiced all week, and by Friday night, am hoping maybe I'll get in the game the following evening. I don't know much, but I know enough to get by. And the quarterbacks are nice guys. They'll help me if I need it.

The night before the game, I check in to the hotel and go down to the meal room. Again, the food is amazing. I am blown away by it. There are artisan chefs stationed around the room creating made-to- order delicacies: everything you can imagine. Pastas, Mexican food, omelets, salads, a variety of roasts, meats, grains, fruits, breads, cookies and pies. It makes Denver's food selection look like the HealthSouth cafeteria. After dinner is our team meeting. And here comes Mangini again, same smarmy look on his face, same paranoia in the crowd. Only now I'm among them. I have notes scattered around my lap, too. My heart is racing. Please don't call on me please don't call on me. He calls on a few guys and has them stand and answer more arbitrary questions about the Titans' defensive tendencies and historical success running certain coverages and substitution packages and, holy sh*t! It's embarrassing. I breathe a sigh of relief when he concludes the question-and- answer portion of the show and moves on.

Then he motions to a young man in army fatigues standing in the corner of the room and introduces him as an Iraqi war veteran. Coach wants him to say a few words to us. The football-as- war metaphor is an old motivational tactic. I have heard it evoked many times in my life. But not like this.

The vet tells us his story. He lost three friends and both of his legs in a roadside bomb attack the previous year. You can hear a pin drop. He's an impressive man, an impressive kid, really. But like me, he seems confused as to why he is here, addressing a room full of professional football players the night before a preseason game. It soon becomes apparent why he was brought here. Mangini starts peppering him with leading questions intended to strengthen the validity of his own mantras, trying to draw an honest parallel between the bomb that killed his friends and the following evening's preseason game against the Tennessee Titans. The soldier sees what Mangini is doing and steers away from it, choosing instead to speak candidly about what he had learned, not what Mangini had hoped he learned.

After a few cringeworthy questions from the audience, class is dismissed. I make a beeline to my room, where I lock myself behind the double bolt and scribble furiously in my notebook. This is some outlandish sh*t. And I don't want to forget it.

http://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/manginis-mess-sent-to-save-the-cleveland-browns-eric-mangini-instead-put-on-a-clinic-on-how-to-drive-a-teams-morale-into-the-ground/Content?oid=3625467&showFullText=true

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Bugg

Bugg

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that is complete myth, they didn't want to wait for the SB coordinators.  and you'd be ok w/ Marvin lewis never winning a playoff game?  do we forget Herm led us to only our 2nd EVER AFC East title and the ONLY non Pats AFC east title in a year Brady was primary starter for NE. 

you only know Dick Curl's name b/c of the lunacy of message boards blaming him for clock mnmt issues as if every team doesn't have clock mgmt issues. 

Edwards was epic awful at clock management, with Dick Curl. Recall the Quincy Carter game with everyone jumping up and down on the sideline like sugared up 5 year olds instead of acting like a professional as but one example. Not gonna rehash ALL OF IT.That wasn't some JI/JN myth, he was that phvcking bad.  Edwards was terrible, period. 

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