Was Parcells more bad than good for Jets in the long term?

[T0mShane]

The Tuna had a Pro Bowl QB in Vinny in 98 the Jets in 09-10 didn't..When Vinny went down game 1, 1999 the team started 1-6..

The Tuna had a Pro Bowl QB in Vinny in 98 the Jets in 09-10 didn't..When Vinny went down game 1, 1999 the team started 1-6..

Vincent Testaverde: icon, franchise quarterback, lock Hall of Famer. Almost incomprehensible that we were able to land such a transcendent talent as a free agent.

[Savage69]

Wait, hang on...you're saying that Archie Manning would only advise his sons to play for stable franchises with established ownership and might intervene if one of his sons might end up on a team with a track record of organizational dysfunction? No way. NO WAY.

If your saying when his sons were available to be drafted yes.. And that includes the 1997 Jets.. 

[T0mShane]

If your saying when his sons were available to be drafted yes.. And that includes the 1997 Jets.. 

So you're saying that Archie Manning looked at Woody Johnson, fresh off his purchase of the NY Jets, and said, "Peyton, that Woody Johnson is a genius and that Jets franchise is viable long-term. You should definitely jump at the chance to play for the team that's won an average of four games per season over the last five years"?

[Snell41]

And Parcells should have known the value of a potential franchise QB. He didn't have one at the time at all as Glenn Foley was the starter when he arrived and Boomer Esiason was on his way to Arizona as a FA. I don't see how Parcells could have passed up Manning and I will never forgive him for doing so. The best draft picks he made were Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas and Ryan Young. In 2000 he made the trade for Keyshawn and got two first rounders. He got Chad Pennington and Sean Ellis along with John Abraham and later Laveraunes Coles. He also got James Farrior who he didn't like and sent to Pittsburgh. All in all a mixed bag because he missed on the best one....Manning.

What you're forgetting was Parcells was here during the time of RIDICULOUS draft trades. Ditka gave a whole draft for Williams. Hell we got 2 firsts for Keyshawn friggin Johnson. No one in their right mind could make that blanket guarantee without knowing what offers we'd field. Conceivably a team could've offered 2 entire drafts, it sounds outlandish but in those days it was possible for a QB like Payton.

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[TuscanyTile2]

Still blaming Brien even though the offense scored 0 points that day..

Agreed about it being the offense's fault.  I blame Brien for us wasting a 2nd rounder on Mike Nugent

[TuscanyTile2]

If you get depressed, your words, over individual bad plays you need to stop watching sports.  Even the best teams make bad plays.  

You sound like the person who gets depressed if every single play doesnt work, every FG isnt good, every pass is completed, if every game isnt a win or every season isnt a total success.  Sports dont work that way.

Oh stop.  Obviously it's not about individual plays.  The Buttfumble was an iconic play though.  The other 2 I listed were a playoff loss and a loss that cost us a playoff berth.

[Savage69]

So you're saying that Archie Manning looked at Woody Johnson, fresh off his purchase of the NY Jets, and said, "Peyton, that Woody Johnson is a genius and that Jets franchise is viable long-term. You should definitely jump at the chance to play for the team that's won an average of four games per season over the last five years"?

If you ever posted the truth are you afraid your head will explode?? I was talking about coaches from the Parcell's coaching tree not to mention no way would both brothers ever be in NY at the same time with that media circus..

[Sperm Edwards]

I don't think we were as close as we were w/ Parcells.  We had an 11 point lead in that game (I looked it up - I assume 14-3).  But we knew it would be hard to stop Peyton all game long.  Plus even if we won we still would've faced a tough New Orleans team.

Parcells almost got us to face Atlanta who I would've felt confident against (as we crushed them earlier in the season).

We crushed them earlier in the year because Atlanta started 100 year old Steve DeBerg against us when Crystal Chandler was ruled out for the game. DeBerg was already washed up 6 years earlier and returned as a sideshow event for that one season. If Chandler starts instead it's a totally different ballgame. They were putting up 30-40 points like every week. Maybe we still win that one and maybe we don't, but that week we got stupid lucky.

 

[Ex-Rex]

What bothers me the most about the Parcells era is that if it's true - he passed on one of the best QB's of his era - and all the Jets had at the time was a free agent to be Esiason and Glenn Foley for christ sakes. I really don't care that Belichick moved on, in my opinion he is a good HC but he became great only with the rise of  Tom Brady. Leon Johnson's pass was highly questionable, but Parcells was a gambler at times. Mirer was a mistake he should have seen much sooner, he said that he thought Mirer was scared to throw downfield and lacked confidence, so why stay with him? His draft's were pretty bad too adding a few OL and James Farrior. His last draft was best getting Pennington, Ellis, Abraham and Coles. Screw Anthony Becht, he did squat.

[Sperm Edwards]

It was 17-6, but they spit up a TD before the half to Collie, so they only had a 4 point lead at the half.  The Broncos game had horrible winds and we shut them out at the half.  For a Belichik Parcells team to give up that lead was despicable.  

Parcells did seem to change the culture here and demand respect.  I hated the fat ****er and for the "Super Bowl or it's meaningless" crowd, he was as big a failure as anybody, but he did that.  The team was in better shape when he left than when Rex left, but his insistence on meddling without taking responsibility caused Belichik to run for it and he didn't do us many favors in the personnel department.  When you talk about coaching, that fat underbellied piece of sh*t was here for 3 seasons. The Conference Championship game against Elway you can almost forgive, HOF QB in one of the most difficult parks to play.  The other 2 years he was here our chances were squandered by specific decisions of his.  100%.  The Leon Johnson HB pass?  ******* moron.  Sticking with Rick Mirer for half the ******* season.  Unforgivable.  Fat ******* carpetbagger.

Yep. If the original question was to whether or not he was good for the Jets long term the obvious answer is no.

We didn't win a superbowl. He passed up on on Peyton Manning, then passed up on Tom Brady, and Belichick went to NE where he and Brady have dominated the division ever since. He got his ass handed to him in draft day trades. On his way out he then hired/recommended Terry Bradway to take his place, who then hired Herm Edwards as HC. Before leaving, though, he did his best to give bloated contract extensions to old has-beens like Cox, Vinnie, and others. He also traded Keyshawn to Tampa not because he thought it was a good trade for the Jets, but because he wanted Keyshawn when he planned on taking the Tampa job when it became available. He was also going to take Tannenbaum with him to be his GM down in Tampa. That Tampa gig fell apart because his divorce wasn't finalized yet, and he'd have to give the soon to be ex-Mrs.Parcells 50% of his Tampa HC salary. So after they fired Dungy they now had to look elsewhere after getting stood up by the Tuna. They famously then gave up those picks (and I think money also) to Oakland to get Gruden, and finally got that superbowl win.

Short term he was clearly good for the Jets. Long term he was not, or we'd be talking about the SB trophy he got us (or that we won right after he left). 

[Beerfish]

1)  People giving parcells heck for not guaranteeing he is going to take a junior QB #1?  Lol, juniors telling front offices how to behave.  No gm is ever going to guarantee that kind of thing, this is not basketball.

 

2)  I'd say that every single team in this league has some story about a scout pounding the table for brady in the 5th round, Zero guarantee he would have amounted to anything as a jet.  Brady is a once in a life time situation.  He was in the right place at the right time with the right team with the right amount of good fortune, 

[Savage69]

1)  People giving parcells heck for not guaranteeing he is going to take a junior QB #1?  Lol, juniors telling front offices how to behave.  No gm is ever going to guarantee that kind of thing, this is not basketball.

 

2)  I'd say that every single team in this league has some story about a scout pounding the table for brady in the 5th round, Zero guarantee he would have amounted to anything as a jet.  Brady is a once in a life time situation.  He was in the right place at the right time with the right team with the right amount of good fortune, 

So would that make Kurt Warner and Warren Moon once in a dogs life situation??

[Sperm Edwards]

So would that make Kurt Warner and Warren Moon once in a dogs life situation??

When you really think about it, he was SMART to not take Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. We've had so many great QBs here since 1997 we didn't need either of them anyway!

[Bugg]

When you really think about it, he was SMART to not take Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. We've had so many great QBs here since 1997 we didn't need either of them anyway!

May be the worse story is chief scout Jesse Kay begging him to take Brady late in the 2000 draft, and getting ignored because he had already taken Pennington. 

[Savage69]

When you really think about it, he was SMART to not take Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. We've had so many great QBs here since 1997 we didn't need either of them anyway!

The Tuna hated Rookie QB's and he said he was only going to coach for 3 years so no way would he use the first pick in the draft on a QB.. Brady on the other hand could have been had in the 6th instead of Tony Scott whose career was over the next year..LOL

[Savage69]

May be the worse story is chief scout Jesse Kay begging him to take Brady late in the 2000 draft, and getting ignored because he had already taken Pennington. 

In 1965 4 of our first 7 picks were QB's our 1st and 2nd rd were both QB's as was the 4th and 7th.. Lucky for us the 1st pick worked out..

[Sperm Edwards]

May be the worse story is chief scout Jesse Kay begging him to take Brady late in the 2000 draft, and getting ignored because he had already taken Pennington. 

But it was ok to take Windrell Hayes right after drafting Coles and a TE with the 2 picks before him. Besides, even if Brady was only "ok" it was the 5th round, teams don't need backup QBs to develop. What they need are practice squad WRs.

[Beerfish]

So would that make Kurt Warner and Warren Moon once in a dogs life situation??

Warner was the same as Brady, the one and only reason he got a chance was becasue trent green got hurt.

Moon is not the same situation, over a period of 5 years he showed how good he was in the CFL.  Teams came calling after him to be an immediate starter.

[UnitedWhofans]

I've said this before. There is a difference between embarrassing and disappointing. Parcells took us from embarrasing to disappointing. Bowles did the same, although less disappointing than Parcells IMO

It's the next step that's been the problem

[nyjunc]

Heard Gary Myers again talking about some of the tidbits from his book.

Mentioned again how all Archie Manning wanted from Parcells was a promise that he'd take Peyton number one overall but BP wouldn't commit so he told him to go back to school.

Then repeated the story about the scout who was begging Parcells to take Brady in the 5th round but he refused.

Combine that with Parcells hanging around and essentially chasing Belichick off to New England.

Thoughts?

still more good than bad as he brought us out of the dark ages and we became a competitive franchises- really one of the best in the AFC from 1997-2011.

 

BUT he cost us Peyton and more importantly he cost us BB which likely cost us Brady.

[TuscanyTile2]

The Tuna hated Rookie QB's and he said he was only going to coach for 3 years so no way would he use the first pick in the draft on a QB.. Brady on the other hand could have been had in the 6th instead of Tony Scott whose career was over the next year..LOL

He became quite the movie director though. 

[TuscanyTile2]

Yep. If the original question was to whether or not he was good for the Jets long term the obvious answer is no.

We didn't win a superbowl. He passed up on on Peyton Manning, then passed up on Tom Brady, and Belichick went to NE where he and Brady have dominated the division ever since. He got his ass handed to him in draft day trades. On his way out he then hired/recommended Terry Bradway to take his place, who then hired Herm Edwards as HC. Before leaving, though, he did his best to give bloated contract extensions to old has-beens like Cox, Vinnie, and others. He also traded Keyshawn to Tampa not because he thought it was a good trade for the Jets, but because he wanted Keyshawn when he planned on taking the Tampa job when it became available. He was also going to take Tannenbaum with him to be his GM down in Tampa. That Tampa gig fell apart because his divorce wasn't finalized yet, and he'd have to give the soon to be ex-Mrs.Parcells 50% of his Tampa HC salary. So after they fired Dungy they now had to look elsewhere after getting stood up by the Tuna. They famously then gave up those picks (and I think money also) to Oakland to get Gruden, and finally got that superbowl win.

Short term he was clearly good for the Jets. Long term he was not, or we'd be talking about the SB trophy he got us (or that we won right after he left). 

Except do we know the Peyton and Brady stories are even true?  Gary Myers needs to sell books (plus hates jets fans after we excoriated him for his "jets will rue not drafting Leinart" prediction - paraphrasing). 

[AFJF]

Yep. If the original question was to whether or not he was good for the Jets long term the obvious answer is no.

We didn't win a superbowl. He passed up on on Peyton Manning, then passed up on Tom Brady, and Belichick went to NE where he and Brady have dominated the division ever since. He got his ass handed to him in draft day trades. On his way out he then hired/recommended Terry Bradway to take his place, who then hired Herm Edwards as HC. Before leaving, though, he did his best to give bloated contract extensions to old has-beens like Cox, Vinnie, and others. He also traded Keyshawn to Tampa not because he thought it was a good trade for the Jets, but because he wanted Keyshawn when he planned on taking the Tampa job when it became available. He was also going to take Tannenbaum with him to be his GM down in Tampa. That Tampa gig fell apart because his divorce wasn't finalized yet, and he'd have to give the soon to be ex-Mrs.Parcells 50% of his Tampa HC salary. So after they fired Dungy they now had to look elsewhere after getting stood up by the Tuna. They famously then gave up those picks (and I think money also) to Oakland to get Gruden, and finally got that superbowl win.

Short term he was clearly good for the Jets. Long term he was not, or we'd be talking about the SB trophy he got us (or that we won right after he left). 

Surprised to see how many people are dismissing the "long term" part of the question.

[Sperm Edwards]

 

Except do we know the Peyton and Brady stories are even true?  Gary Myers needs to sell books (plus hates jets fans after we excoriated him for his "jets will rue not drafting Leinart" prediction - paraphrasing). 

They Peyton story is hardly just from Myers. Peyton's mother inadvertently spilled the beans on that years ago. Parcells wouldn't commit to drafting him so, after he waited as long as he could (into March) he then reluctantly returned to Tennessee with some dribble about returning to win a national championship. Funny how he didn't feel that way for the previous 10 weeks.

The Brady thing I think we've heard before as well, but being honest I can't remember when or from whom.

[Savage69]

still more good than bad as he brought us out of the dark ages and we became a competitive franchises- really one of the best in the AFC from 1997-2011.

 

BUT he cost us Peyton and more importantly he cost us BB which likely cost us Brady.

Another thought is what if Hess would have stayed with BB who was his HC hire before the Tuna deal that knocked him down to DC.. Had BB been the HC/GM with no Tuna we may have had Peyton in the 1997 draft and Brady in 2000.. The Tuna was as he said a 3 year HC, BB was looking for long term gig..

[chirorob]

still more good than bad as he brought us out of the dark ages and we became a competitive franchises- really one of the best in the AFC from 1997-2011.

BUT he cost us Peyton and more importantly he cost us BB which likely cost us Brady.

If he doesn't come here, BB never comes here.

People forget.  This team won 4 games.  IN TWO YEARS!!!

Next thing you know, we are talking about how we lost the AFC Championship game.  Did he leave the team in some bad finances, yes.  But overall, we went from 4-28  to leading in Denver at half time.

[Savage69]

If he doesn't come here, BB never comes here.

People forget.  This team won 4 games.  IN TWO YEARS!!!

Next thing you know, we are talking about how we lost the AFC Championship game.  Did he leave the team in some bad finances, yes.  But overall, we went from 4-28  to leading in Denver at half time.

BB was hired first as the HC??

[nyjunc]

Another thought is what if Hess would have stayed with BB who was his HC hire before the Tuna deal that knocked him down to DC.. Had BB been the HC/GM with no Tuna we may have had Peyton in the 1997 draft and Brady in 2000.. The Tuna was as he said a 3 year HC, BB was looking for long term gig..

BB was never going to be our HC in 1997 and he understood that, it was a charade b/c of the illegal way we brought BP here. 

If he doesn't come here, BB never comes here.

People forget.  This team won 4 games.  IN TWO YEARS!!!

Next thing you know, we are talking about how we lost the AFC Championship game.  Did he leave the team in some bad finances, yes.  But overall, we went from 4-28  to leading in Denver at half time.

No question that's why I will always appreciate BP.  he brought us out of the dark ages, people don't understand how bad we were as a franchise but we  did have some talent and BP made it work.  w/ that said he hurt our future by costing us BB and either peyton or Brady.

[T0mShane]

Surprised to see how many people are dismissing the "long term" part of the question.

High comedy right here.

[rex-n-effect]

Assume the Peyton and Brady stories are true and not having either can be fairly placed on Parcells. Assume BB would have been a good coach here or would have stayed once given the job. Assume Peyton or Brady would have developed as they did if they had been drafted here. These are seriously bad errors in a short period of time.

Hard to disagree under those assumptions but they have to be put in the context of the condition of the franchise before and during those years. This was a franchise where nobody wanted to go. Nobody expected to see success here. Without the credibility Parcells brought it's doubtful we could have surrounded either Peyton or Brady with the kind of talent Parcells bought in or that either would have stayed here. It's also doubtful BB would have had the success he has had in NE without the kind of support NE offered him and has continued to offer him. We could have easily been that franchise with a young star QB and no success. As much as I can dislike things Parcells did it's difficult to overlook that he was able to turn the team around from four wins to an AFC Championship and set the tone for the team as a competitive franchise for the next fifteen years. (We lost that a little over the past few years but we have an opportunity to get it back right now.) On balance Parcells was what this team needed in the long term.

[dbatesman]

High comedy right here.

Almost 20 years since he became coach, and we still haven't won a Super Bowl. Do the math, sheeple.

[nyjunc]

Almost 20 years since he became coach, and we still haven't won a Super Bowl. Do the math, sheeple.

20 years ago we were going into year 2 of the Kotite era.  It could always be worse

[Beerfish]

No coach or GM is good long term becasue you are paid to win and win now.  Know who the poster boy for being good 'long term' for the team would be?  John freakin Idzik.  Some of the same people berating parcells for not thinking long term wanted Idzik to spend to the cap and sign guys like Desean Jackson and DRC to 8 year big money deals loaded with guaranteed money.

There is also some hindsight re manning in this thread as well.  Parcells had no idea that manning was going to be as good as he has been.  Top end most QB prospect?  Yup for sure but enough to make a guarantee on ?  That gets dicey.

[nyjunc]

No coach or GM is good long term becasue you are paid to win and win now.  Know who the poster boy for being good 'long term' for the team would be?  John freakin Idzik.  Some of the same people berating parcells for not thinking long term wanted Idzik to spend to the cap and sign guys like Desean Jackson and DRC to 8 year big money deals loaded with guaranteed money.

There is also some hindsight re manning in this thread as well.  Parcells had no idea that manning was going to be as good as he has been.  Top end most QB prospect?  Yup for sure but enough to make a guarantee on ?  That gets dicey.

Most people expected Manning would be a top QB.  BP didn't want him b/c it was rare to win w/ young QBs back then and he wasn't planning on being here long.

there is a happy middle from Tannenbaum to Idzik, Idzik didn't have to spend to the cap but he didn't have to sabotage the coach by not bringing in talent either.

[T0mShane]

Almost 20 years since he became coach, and we still haven't won a Super Bowl. Do the math, sheeple.

Jets fan: Long term, was Franklin Delano Roosevelt good for America or nah

Other Jets Fan: Uh, what did he do to stop ISIS amirite? I mean come on