Gruden's QB Camp - Christian Hackenberg

[Warfish]

4 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Think the general consensus isnt that they were elite NFL QBs but at he got more production out of those QBs than their talent level would have you expect out of them.  The old turning lemons into lemonade theory.

Thats the sign of a really good QB coach/offensive coordinator. 

 

Go and look at the actual numbers for those QB's (excluding the HOF'ers) for those years.

If you still think Chan made lemonade out of lemons, as opposed to making ever-so-slightly-less-bitter lemon juice out of lemons, well, we disagree.

 But I'm open mined, please point out the drafted rookie QB Chan G. personally handheld from college barely-adequate (i.e. Hackensack today) to All-Pro.

Given his "QB Guru" reputation, surely there are a few of these guys, right?

[Jet Nut]

Just now, Warfish said:

Go and look at the actual numbers for those QB's (excluding the HOF'ers) for those years.

If you still think Chan made lemonade out of lemons, as opposed to making ever-so-slightly-less-bitter lemon juice out of lemons, well, we disagree.

 But I'm open mined, please point out the drafted rookie QB Chan G. personally handheld from college barely-adequate (i.e. Hackensack today) to All-Pro.

Given his "QB Guru" reputation, surely there are a few of these guys, right?

Yes I think he made lemon aid out of lemons.  

I don't see where it makes any difference that he was on a staff that drafted the project or not other than its a assbackwards way to make your point.  

Everyone is telling you the same thing.  Everyone praises Gaily for his work with QBs. 

Our journeyman QB says it and his numbers with Gaiky prove it.  Your guy, your QB.  

It was posted by pundits last night that Hackenberg went to the right spot because of Gaily.

You pretty much disagree with every QB initiative that isn't give the job to Fitz and wait for an elite QB to magically appear on our roster.  And that I disagree with 

 

[Warfish]

50 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Yes I think he made lemon aid out of lemons.  

I don't see where it makes any difference that he was on a staff that drafted the project or not other than its a assbackwards way to make your point.  

Everyone is telling you the same thing.  Everyone praises Gaily for his work with QBs. 

Our journeyman QB says it and his numbers with Gaiky prove it.  Your guy, your QB.  

It was posted by pundits last night that Hackenberg went to the right spot because of Gaily.

You pretty much disagree with every QB initiative that isn't give the job to Fitz and wait for an elite QB to magically appear on our roster.  And that I disagree with 

 

I'm asking for evidence, not platitudes.  Not hot air.

If Chan is as great as "everyone" says, prove it.  Show us a year where a QB he taught was massively better than that QB ever was before or after Chan (excluding Fitz 2015).

If Chan is as great as "everyone" says, show us the specific rookie he personally groomed into Franchise QB status.

Proof, not platitudes.

[CanadaSteve]

1 hour ago, Joe Jets fan said:

He was doing it in his freshman year.  Hackenberg learned learned how to do all this plus looking off safeties in the summer after graduating from high school.  No reason to think he can't be up to speed from now to sept and be able to start this year if needed.    He has shown he can do it all.  

As long as he is not Shell shocked that is. 

Crap....I meant to say his Freshman year.  But yeah, there was a reason this kid was the #1 recruit coming out of high school.  He was battered in his final seasons, like Carr was in Houston.  If he can regain a trust in his blocking schemes, people are going to be bowing at Mac for this pick.

[Jet Nut]

29 minutes ago, Warfish said:

I'm asking for evidence, not platitudes.  Not hot air.

If Chan is as great as "everyone" says, prove it.  Show us a year where a QB he taught was massively better than that QB ever was before or after Chan (excluding Fitz 2015).

If Chad is as great as "everyone" says, show us the specific rookie he personally groomed into Franchise QB status.

Proof, not platitudes.

Try http://www.pro-football-reference.com.  

Or Google.com for opinions on what Gaily has done with what he's had. 

Polian on Hackenberg to the Jets said he went to a great place because of Gaily and his work with QBs.  

 

 

 

[Warfish]

14 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Try http://www.pro-football-reference.com.  

Or Google.com for opinions on what Gaily has done with what he's had. 

Polian on Hackenberg to the Jets said he went to a great place because of Gaily and his work with QBs.  

Oh, I already looked at PFR, and the evidence simply isn't there.  It's your claim, you prove it.

I give a rats ass what Polian says at this point, that's not facts that's hot air 

Stop deflecting, and show us the rookie or loser QB that Chan brought to franchise QB status.  If Chan is the Guru, it should be easy, only take ten seconds for you to find one (or presumably many) examples to cite, right?

If you're unable, just proves the "Chan the QB Guru" line is pure meme.

[cant wait]

6 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Oh, I already looked at PFR, and the evidence simply isn't there.  It's your claim, you prove it.

I give a rats ass what Polian says at this point, that's not facts that's hot air 

Stop deflecting, and show us the rookie or loser QB that Chan brought to franchise QB status.  If Chan is the Guru, it should be easy, only take ten seconds for you to find one (or presumably many) examples to cite, right?

If you're unable, just proves the "Chan the QB Guru" line is pure meme.

He made a scrub like Fitzpatrick think he's worth $18M a year. And gailey helped bring back aikman when his career was going downhill. But it's pretty clear your main agenda is whining about Hackenberg some more, so knock yourself out buddy. LOL

[Sperm Edwards]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

I'm asking for evidence, not platitudes.  Not hot air.

If Chan is as great as "everyone" says, prove it.  Show us a year where a QB he taught was massively better than that QB ever was before or after Chan (excluding Fitz 2015).

If Chan is as great as "everyone" says, show us the specific rookie he personally groomed into Franchise QB status.

Proof, not platitudes.

I posted this 2-3 months ago:

On March 12, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Sperm Edwards said:

I'm not worried about the "knowing the system" reason. Every QB does well in year 1 of playing with Gailey. Offense in general isn't always so awesome, but the QB's get an instant boost from what they were.

Year 1 QB'ing for Chan Gailey:

1996 Steelers = Mike Tomczak a year earlier posted 1 TD to 9 INTs in 5 games. Losing O'Donnell to us, he was named OC and was handed Tomczak as his starting QB. Yancey Thigpen also missed most of the season to injury.They still somehow finished with a top-15 offense as Tomczak finished with nearly a 1:1 TD:INT ratio. He still kind of sucked, but compare that to the year before when he had a healthy Thigpen to throw to.

1998 Cowboys = Troy Aikman was already on a visible decline for the prior a couple of years and (at least on paper) had his best season since '95. The handful of games he missed to injury, Gailey got Jason Garrett to look like an actual NFL QB.

2000 Dolphins = Jay Fiedler was a 29 year-old, undrafted, backup nobody with 1 start and barely 100 pass attempts since college (where he played for freaking Dartmouth). His only live action facing an actual defense, the prior year for Jacksonville, he went 8-of-22, 0 TD, 2 INTs. Gailey turned him into a legitimate NFL starter, including a pretty good game against the Ravens' all-time defense. He wasn't awesome, but hey it was Jay Fiedler in his first legitimate action since, well, ever.

2008 Chiefs = Tyler Thigpen. Second year 7th round nobody with 6 career pass attempts in garbage time. Throws 18 TDs and 12 INTs. A big zero before Gailey and after Gailey. With Gailey this inexperienced zero is an actual NFL starting QB. Unreal.

2010 Bills = Ryan Fitzpatrick. Two unremarkable seasons with under 10 TDs, and nominally more picks than TDs. The next 3 years in a row he's throwing 2 dozen TDs a season. Yeah he's turning it over a bit as well, but it's Ryan Fitzpatrick; that's what he does.

 

So I'm really not worried about any QB's first year in Gailey's system. Literally every QB undergoes a big (if not seemingly impossible) improvement when it happens. If they perform so hideously it's not because of how few years in Gailey's offense; it's because they cannot play the position at the NFL level.

I don't think Gailey is the world's greatest OC, and he absolutely does make some infuriating calls, but it's a much harder task to find a QB who didn't get noticeably better, or have a bounceback season, in Gailey year 1 alone. 

[Irish Jet]

I like Chan and Fitz!

[Jetsfan80]

2 hours ago, JetPotato said:

Dude, every QB in this league is putting up inflated numbers. Defenses can defend any more. Forget about 31 TDs. It doesnt mean much. Ryan Tannehill is currently shattering all of Dan Marino's cllub records. Its a differebt game.

Gailey did the right thing with a guy with lots of limitations. The idea with Hack is to build him up so that he has very few limitations and you can ask him to do more.

If it was so easy, Sanchez and Geno would have done something similar. 

[Jetsfan80]

Also, reports suggested Petty was making some nice strides towards at least being a decent backup. So there's that too. Gailey is a solid OC to work with a young QB.

[detectivekimble]

57 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Try http://www.pro-football-reference.com.  

Or Google.com for opinions on what Gaily has done with what he's had. 

Polian on Hackenberg to the Jets said he went to a great place because of Gaily and his work with QBs.  

 

 

 

Warfish knows more than Bill Polian.  The game has passed Bill Polian by.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Oh, I already looked at PFR, and the evidence simply isn't there.  It's your claim, you prove it.

I give a rats ass what Polian says at this point, that's not facts that's hot air 

Stop deflecting, and show us the rookie or loser QB that Chan brought to franchise QB status.  If Chan is the Guru, it should be easy, only take ten seconds for you to find one (or presumably many) examples to cite, right?

If you're unable, just proves the "Chan the QB Guru" line is pure meme.

The whole world says it, you disagree.  You're using numbers of a K Stewart compared to today's standards.  Good for you but Kordell had success when no thought he would.   

I don't really care, know what he's done with bottom feeder type QBs and don't need numbers to prove it.  

I don't know why this is killing, don't know why you're going out of your way to discredit a well established, well regarded OC, especially for what he's known for.  I think I'll take a Bill Polians thoughts on this over yours.  That pesky HOF status kind of skews it his way.  Along with that annoying drafting success he had

 

[House Jet]

5 hours ago, Jetster said:

Jets may of got very lucky. When we look back on this we may see that Bill Obrien leaving Penn State for the pros gave au the opportunity to draft Hack in the 2nd round.

Is there anyone on this board that thinks if Obrien stays Hackenburgs stock drops as much as it has? When someone has the measurables the next step is do they have the drive & the smarts to succeed. Read outliers & he fits perfectly. He just needs to be back in a system with people that know what the f*ck their doing like Chan Gailey. 

There is not a QB alive that doesn't fold when their spirit is crushed & they are taking massive hits all day. Tom Brady WILTED under the pressure Denver put on him. (Maybe the best QB to ever play the game). Keep in mind defensive players get away with much more regarding the QB in college than they do in the Pros now. Again, we'll see what happens as the fan base is split equally like always regarding QBs. He either sucks or it's a great pick. In 2 years we'll see who was right.

Yes! Outliers was great. We'll see if that was his opportunity to be great.

[ZachEY]

I think what's most exciting from that video is that he taps his helmet!  Just like Tom Brady!!!

[Sperm Edwards]

17 minutes ago, gEYno said:

I think what's most exciting from that video is that he taps his helmet!  Just like Tom Brady!!!

He did? Oooooh! With any luck he'll change his hair every season.

I'm wetting myself.

[flgreen]

19 minutes ago, gEYno said:

I think what's most exciting from that video is that he taps his helmet!  Just like Tom Brady!!!

it's something O'Brian brought over from the Pats

[win4ever]

Hackenberg is a real enigma to me, he's the type of guy that I'm not sure I want to pick, but I'd be scared as heck if another team in the AFC East picked him.  If he gets his mechanics in order, he could be a really good one, but he's going to have to work at it.  He seems much more natural out from under center than the shot gun, but I hate his lazy footwork from the shotgun.  I watched a couple of his games from his freshman year, and it's striking how much of a part Allen Robinson played.  He was pretty much the only one that seemed to be making plays, everyone else seemed lost.  While I like the arm, I don't love the ball placement on deep passes.  Too many times the WR had to adjust to the ball, allowing DBs to get back in the play, which is concerning.   

[Warfish]

1 hour ago, Sperm Edwards said:

I posted this 2-3 months ago:

I don't think Gailey is the world's greatest OC, and he absolutely does make some infuriating calls, but it's a much harder task to find a QB who didn't get noticeably better, or have a bounceback season, in Gailey year 1 alone. 

Great post Sperm, unlike a few others, you at least work with facts, not hot air.

With that said, if that list is what qualifies as a "QB Guru", wow, it doesn't take much because there is no real success in that list, no Franchise QB's, just slightly less bad from bad.  I'm not impressed with anything on that list, most certainly not his work with the Fiedlers, Thigpens or  Tomczaks.  Take a broader looks and you'll see Chan used other talent around these losers to prop them up, to limit their failure, he didn't make them better QB's.  One need only look at how these players performed after Chan....if he was a QB Guru, they'd have at least maintained (from learning under Chan, right?) to some degree.  None did.

I like Chan, he's fine, did a great job here mostly last year.  But it's the "oh, don't worry, Hackensackme will be GREAT because :Chan:" meme I'm simply not buying.  Right now, Hackenberg is no better than Thigpen, Fiedler or Tamczak at the pro level, and considerably worse at the college level.  Chan didn't make any of those guys all-pros, he barely got adequate out of them.  

And we need a hell of a lot more out of Hackenberg than adequate if he's our Franchise QB of the future.

Chad didn't create a single Franchise QB in his career far as I can tell, and that is what we need him to do with Hackenberg, take a pretty crappy college kid with potential, and make him into a Franhcise QB.  Maybe he can, I HOPE he can, we all have to hope now, but there is nothing in Chan's resume far as I can see that says he can or that he's done it before.  That's the facts.

 

[Sperm Edwards]

11 minutes ago, flgreen said:

it's something O'Brian brought over from the Pats

Maybe that's why Hackenberg had a good freshman season. His helmet had an extra speaker in it, connected to someone in the booth talking him through the play after the ball was snapped. He was slapping his helmet because the reception kept crapping out from a loose wire or a sh*tty signal. My dad used to bang the top of our TV for the same reason.

[win4ever]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9lWttgBjPo

The only good thing you take away from this seems to be that, at his Pro-Day, Macc was front and center scouting him.  You can see him at the 2:30 mark in that video, personally scouting him in the white Jets jacket.  Although I don't see any coffee, so not sure if he's awake.  

[Sperm Edwards]

2 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Great post Sperm, unlike a few others, you at least work with facts, not hot air.

With that said, if that list is what qualifies as a "QB Guru", wow, it doesn't take much because there is no real success in that list, no Franchise QB's, just slightly less bad from bad.  I'm not impressed with anything on that list, most certainly not his work with the Fiedlers, Thigpens or  Tomczaks.  Take a broader looks and you'll see Chan used other talent around these losers to prop them up, to limit their failure, he didn't make them better QB's.  One need only look at how these players performed after Chan....if he was a QB Guru, they'd have at least maintained (from learning under Chan, right?) to some degree.  None did.

I like Chan, he's fine, did a great job here mostly last year.  But it's the "oh, don't worry, Hackensackme will be GREAT because :Chan:" meme I'm simply not buying.  Right now, Hackenberg is no better than Thigpen, Fiedler or Tamczak at the pro level, and considerably worse at the college level.  Chan didn't make any of those guys all-pros, he barely got adequate out of them.  

And we need a hell of a lot more out of Hackenberg than adequate if he's our Franchise QB of the future.

Chad didn't create a single Franchise QB in his career far as I can tell, and that is what we need him to do with Hackenberg, take a pretty crappy college kid with potential, and make him into a Franhcise QB.  Maybe he can, I HOPE he can, we all have to hope now, but there is nothing in Chan's resume far as I can see that says he can or that he's done it before.  That's the facts.

 

No doubt. But was Jay Fielder really ever going to be a franchise QB? Ryan Fitzpatrick? Mike Tomczak? Tyler Thigpen? It's hard to hold that against him. I mean I can't even find a QB who was so bad he had to get benched, no matter what kind of garbage he was.

I'm not too optimistic about Hackenberg myself, but in all honesty I've never seen him play a full game (as I understand, that will not improve my opinion of him lol).

I don't think Gailey is a QB guru. But I do think his QBs do put up favorable stats that was thought improbable - if not impossible - at the close of the prior season.

We'll see. I can always hope (for as much as that's helped me rooting for this friggin' franchise over the past 30-40 years). 

[Warfish]

9 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

No doubt. But was Jay Fielder really ever going to be a franchise QB? Ryan Fitzpatrick? Mike Tomczak? Tyler Thigpen? It's hard to hold that against him. I mean I can't even find a QB who was so bad he had to get benched, no matter what kind of garbage he was.

I'm not too optimistic about Hackenberg myself, but in all honesty I've never seen him play a full game (as I understand, that will not improve my opinion of him lol).

I don't think Gailey is a QB guru. But I do think his QBs do put up favorable stats that was thought improbable - if not impossible - at the close of the prior season.

We'll see. I can always hope (for as much as that's helped me rooting for this friggin' franchise over the past 30-40 years). 

I think we're in agreement Sperm, +1

[Larz]

I think gruden hit on something with the confidence.  I hope he doesn't have to play for at least 8 games next year

[Sperm Edwards]

1 minute ago, Warfish said:

I think we're in agreement Sperm, +1

Be sure to write it down so you don't forget it happened.

[Jet Nut]

1 hour ago, Warfish said:

Great post Sperm, unlike a few others, you at least work with facts, not hot air.

With that said, if that list is what qualifies as a "QB Guru", wow, it doesn't take much because there is no real success in that list, no Franchise QB's, just slightly less bad from bad.  I'm not impressed with anything on that list, most certainly not his work with the Fiedlers, Thigpens or  Tomczaks.  Take a broader looks and you'll see Chan used other talent around these losers to prop them up, to limit their failure, he didn't make them better QB's.  One need only look at how these players performed after Chan....if he was a QB Guru, they'd have at least maintained (from learning under Chan, right?) to some degree.  None did.

I like Chan, he's fine, did a great job here mostly last year.  But it's the "oh, don't worry, Hackensackme will be GREAT because :Chan:" meme I'm simply not buying.  Right now, Hackenberg is no better than Thigpen, Fiedler or Tamczak at the pro level, and considerably worse at the college level.  Chan didn't make any of those guys all-pros, he barely got adequate out of them.  

And we need a hell of a lot more out of Hackenberg than adequate if he's our Franchise QB of the future.

Chad didn't create a single Franchise QB in his career far as I can tell, and that is what we need him to do with Hackenberg, take a pretty crappy college kid with potential, and make him into a Franhcise QB.  Maybe he can, I HOPE he can, we all have to hope now, but there is nothing in Chan's resume far as I can see that says he can or that he's done it before.  That's the facts.

 

So it's hot air to know your football.  While the laziness in you keeps you from looking it up yourself?  

But hey, got to give you credit, your still trying to claim he hasn't done much in he way of turning QBs around. 

As well as taking less than 24 hours to come up with a name to snipe at out 2nd round pick.  SOJFs

[jetsons]

7 hours ago, JetPotato said:

I'm all for the optimism, but the "bad coaching" aspect has me thinking... what confidence do we have that Bowles and co. have the right people in place to fix and develop a young QB?

One word... Chan

[predator_05]

Jeez, he's got some small hands. Then again, so does the number 1 pick:

 

 

BTW, yours truly has 9.65 inch hands. I just measured them. You put a ruler/tape flat on the table, and measure the length from the tip of your thumb to the tip of your pinky.

[predator_05]

Other NFL QB handsizes...

Great article here btw, http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/does-a-quarterbacks-hand-size-really-predict-success/

 

[bassmaster2]

I like the kid,strong arm with a good head , the Jets have no choice to take QB until we find a good one.Look forward to see him play 

[JohnnyLV]

4 hours ago, Warfish said:

Oh, I already looked at PFR, and the evidence simply isn't there.  It's your claim, you prove it.

I give a rats ass what Polian says at this point, that's not facts that's hot air 

Stop deflecting, and show us the rookie or loser QB that Chan brought to franchise QB status.  If Chan is the Guru, it should be easy, only take ten seconds for you to find one (or presumably many) examples to cite, right?

If you're unable, just proves the "Chan the QB Guru" line is pure meme.

Holy fuuck, get off your high horse already. Getting DECENT seasons out of complete JAGOFFS like Fitz, Thigpen and Kordell is PROOF. 100% stone lock proof that he maximizes the ability of the QBs he coaches. There might not be a better guy to develop Hackenberg especially since he will create an offense just for his strengths. So instead of 85% gun, we will see lots more under center snaps and play action with Hackenberg. I think that no one agrees with you and just petulantly screaming for "proof" is not debate. Especially since your posts themselves back up the strength of Gailey with QBs

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, predator_05 said:

Jeez, he's got some small hands. Then again, so does the number 1 pick:

 

 

BTW, yours truly has 9.65 inch hands. I just measured them. You put a ruler/tape flat on the table, and measure the length from the tip of your thumb to the tip of your pinky.

Wow, my piano teacher is always telling me I have large hands and I thought she was on drugs. I have pretty short fingers so I cannot palm a basketball but according to this measurement criteria my hands are large at 10.25. For those musically inclined I can easily do a 10th on the piano and do an 11th if I stretch.

I would have to think finger size relative to hand size is important in throwing a football.

 

[predator_05]

16 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Wow, my piano teacher is always telling me I have large hands and I thought she was on drugs. I have pretty short fingers so I cannot palm a basketball but according to this measurement criteria my hands are large at 10.25. For those musically inclined I can easily do a 10th on the piano and do an 11th if I stretch.

I would have to think finger size relative to hand size is important in throwing a football.

 

Jeez, those are massive hands. You're like an NFL lineman.

 

The rationale behind it is pretty simple: bigger hands = better grip. Important indicator of whether or not someone can hold the ball under duress or in difficult conditions (rain, snow, etc.)

At least that's what Browns coach Hue Jackson was saying earlier on.

[peekskill68]

For any of you dual Jet/Met fans, does this Hack/Chan thing remind you of Rick Petersen and Victor Zambrano?  I just hope this turns out better...

[Ex-Rex]

12 hours ago, KRL said:

Every Jet fan needs to watch this because Gruden is speaking like a HC to his
QB and Hackenberg is able to process it.  In this day and age of spread QB's
that isn't normal

This kid is mentally tough, has all the physical tools and needs just a little mentoring. I see him as the Jets QB next year.