Poorly coached team

[nyjunc]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

lol no its not.  The only positions where we're league average or better are QB, box safety, and punter.  Maybe DT, RB, and ILB.

At the most important positions (outside of QB), we are either below average or terrible.  Lackluster O-Line with a Center who can't even snap the ball successfully.  No pass rusher whatsover.  Lousy secondary in pass coverage.  Terrible receivers.  You don't make the playoffs with a roster lacking in those areas, ever. 

We have top talent in the secondary, if they are lousy whose fault is that?  Our WRs when healthy are far from terrible.  We have more talent than Buffalo had last year and they made the playoffs

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

We have top talent in the secondary, if they are lousy whose fault is that?  Our WRs when healthy are far from terrible.  We have more talent than Buffalo had last year and they made the playoffs

Really?

[nyjunc]

16 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Pure utter nonsense.  No one thought they were a 10 win team, give it up.  And they were picked to win one or maybe a couple a year ago.  They win five and you come back with they should have won 7-8.  Find one post where you said this before the season started, not after they overachieved to 5 wins and then blindly and pointlessly say they should have won more.  

Only a fool is going to even attempt to argue that they underachieved at 5-11, especially with Petty playing 3.5 games.  

Who cares if anyone thought that?  Did anyone think Philly would even be a playoff team in 2017 let alone SB champs? Things change. In 2016 we were supposed to win 10+ games, it was evident early on that wasn't happening.  Expectations change when reality his. We should have won at least 11 with our talent and that sched in 2015.

 

We were 4-5 last year, there's no reason we shouldn't have won more than 5 games for the season.

Again, it's not about meaningless preseason expectations. As the seasons play out expectations change. No one thought we could be a game from the SB in 2009 but there we were with a double digit lead in the championship game.

 

 

[nyjunc]

2 minutes ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Really?

Dynamic young safeties (though obviously Maye has been hurt), 2 good corners, a good shot for, some young depth (which is being tested right now).  There aren't any big concerns with the secondary.

[UnitedWhofans]

Just now, nyjunc said:

Dynamic young safeties (though obviously Maye has been hurt), 2 good corners, a good shot for, some young depth (which is being tested right now).  There aren't any big concerns with the secondary.

Not with the secondary. I mean in general, you think we have more talent than the Bills?

[UnitedWhofans]

2 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Again, it's not about meaningless preseason expectations. As the seasons play out expectations change. 

 

 

They shouldn’t unless there is a drastic difference. I don’t think last year there was a drastic difference, or so it seemed. I know it’s impossible because we’re human but we should have no expectations when it comes to sports. Especially in this league where teams are so Jekyll and Hyde for the most part

[dbatesman]

3 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

Dynamic young safeties (though obviously Maye has been hurt), 2 good corners, a good shot for, some young depth (which is being tested right now).  There aren't any big concerns with the secondary.

Except that one of the good corners is a free agent after this year and the other is making a billion dollars and isn't actually that good.

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Not with the secondary. I mean in general, you think we have more talent than the Bills?

Absolutely.  The only player that they had significantly better than anyone we had was McCoy and he's always hurt.  Our QB is better, the OL was as good, we get edge at wr, etc...

Defensively the talent is similar but they have a much better coach to coach up the D. If we switched HCs we win 7-8 games last year and Buffalo is still searching for their first playoff app this century

[nyjunc]

Just now, dbatesman said:

Except that one of the good corners is a free agent after this year and the other is making a billion dollars and isn't actually that good.

They are both good, they are not revis but this is the best secondary we've had probably since 2010.

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

They are both good, they are not revis but this is the best secondary we've had probably since 2010.

Don’t worry about him. Maccagnan’s main goal last offseason was to get a QB. He did. His main goal next offseason is surround said QB. 

[nyjunc]

Just now, UnitedWhofans said:

Don’t worry about him. Maccagnan’s main goal last offseason was to get a QB. He did. His main goal next offseason is surround said QB. 

I got you and I understand that. This was year 2 of the 3 year total rebuild. He got the most important piece. He has a ton of cap room and needs to upgrade OL and weapons for the way while tinkering with a D that is mostly rebuilt already.  We aren't far from being really good, I just don't have any confidence in the current HC to lead us

[UnitedWhofans]

4 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

I got you and I understand that. This was year 2 of the 3 year total rebuild. He got the most important piece. He has a ton of cap room and needs to upgrade OL and weapons for the way while tinkering with a D that is mostly rebuilt already.  We aren't far from being really good, I just don't have any confidence in the current HC to lead us

That’s fair. I don’t like Bowles either. If they unravel I think it says more about Bowles than the players. Although some around here will go after the players

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

That’s fair. I don’t like Bowles either. If they unravel I think it says more about Bowles than the players. Although some around here will go after the players

It's never all on one unit, player or coach but I think we've seen enough of Bowles to determine he's not the future. I hope I am wrong, I hope he turns out to be a great coach but how many HCs didn't get it by year 4?

[dbatesman]

14 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

They are both good, they are not revis but this is the best secondary we've had probably since 2010.

This argument and mine aren't mutually exclusive. This is a much better group than we've seen in a while (though I'd only go back to 2015, not 2010), and the pass defense has been, generally speaking, very good. But there absolutely are some big concerns with the secondary.

[Jetsfan80]

39 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

We have top talent in the secondary, if they are lousy whose fault is that?  Our WRs when healthy are far from terrible.  We have more talent than Buffalo had last year and they made the playoffs

So?  Is that the litmus test now?  Better than Buffalo = playoffs?

Even the Bills didn't think they were all that good last season.  They benched Tyrod in favor of Nathan Peterman for a game.  A team lucking into the postseason isn't automatically an indictment of Bowles. 

[Sperm Edwards]

4 hours ago, nyjunc said:

The roster is good enough to compete for a playoff spot. It is a better roster than Buffalo had last year and they made it. Defensively there is enough talent to be a top 10 type of D especially with a defensive guru running things.

 

Again, I'm not praising the offense but the D has not been good through 7 games.  No we didn't need to score as much to beat Detroit BUT let's not forget Detroit tied the game to open up the 3rd qtr then the O went right down the field to answer with a TD.  If they don't who knows where that game goes?  

 

None of them are good. Not the offense, not the defense, not the coaching. This is where you're wrong to isolate one of them as the real blame. The D requires a pass rusher to generate consistent pressure, or 3+ DBs in coverage all have to be having an on-day at the same time to allow blitzing. OR you have to have an offense that puts up points more regularly, consistently, and doesn't turn it over 2-3x/game. When we don't get that, or when we have to rely upon our crappola depth (especially in the secondary) you get what we've seen: occasional good play that's eventually overcome as the law of averages catches up.

The roster is maybe good enough to make the playoffs in just the right scenario (if there are enough easy games on the schedule) IF their rookie QB didn't play like a rookie, and IF the OL was consistent in their blocking, and yes IF they had some better coaching. Even still, they'd still probably get bounced early against superior talent schemed by superior coaches. 

They're all bad. Nitpicking over which bad part is a bit worse is futile.

[Sperm Edwards]

3 hours ago, bitonti said:

to be clear I never said Bowles was Vince Lombardi. He is a mediocre coach by NFL standards but he gets the team ready to play. They don't go out and get blown out, even when the season is over for playoff purposes.  Blaming the draft pick on Adams on Bowles is wrong on every level, it's a Mac pick first and foremost and a player leads from the locker room differently than a coach does from the behind the big desk in his office. 

the real problem is the ownership which set up a weird reporting structure and then has checked out to lunch. The team does things like take the 9 mil rolled over cap space last year and use it to cut Mo Wilkerson. The owners use this team as a piggy bank (again, no starting edge/OLB on an NFL roster with 17 mil in cap space?)  What are they going to do with next year's roll over, put it in a Roth IRA? 

The problems are way bigger than Spencer Long's high snaps or Todd Bowles not being a Belichek level genius. This roster is still suffering from Idzik's draft incompetence and Mac's Hackenberg/Devin Smith era to a lesser degree. You can't miss on every draft pick for 10 years and blame the HC for not being special.  and why do the GM's stink? because the owner will fire people if you fly a plane with a banner over his head. 

Woody Johnson is not rich enough to buy an NFL team in 2018. J&J was 50 years ago they use the team as their biggest piece of capital and investing let's say a real WR when Terrelle Pryor goes down, that money is being spent in the UK, probably at Harrods. 

You had me until revisiting the ridiculous conspiracy theory stuff about how the Jets are unwilling to spend on players. They made offer after offer. The problem is these high-priced players turned us down, except Trumaine Johnson.

[nyjunc]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So?  Is that the litmus test now?  Better than Buffalo = playoffs?

Even the Bills didn't think they were all that good last season.  They benched Tyrod in favor of Nathan Peterman for a game.  A team lucking into the postseason isn't automatically an indictment of Bowles. 

The point is they were well coached, they didn't use any excuses and they made the playoffs for the first time this century.  They competed, we didn't.

[Bugg]

4 hours ago, bitonti said:

to be clear I never said Bowles was Vince Lombardi. He is a mediocre coach by NFL standards but he gets the team ready to play. They don't go out and get blown out, even when the season is over for playoff purposes.  Blaming the draft pick on Adams on Bowles is wrong on every level, it's a Mac pick first and foremost and a player leads from the locker room differently than a coach does from the behind the big desk in his office. 

the real problem is the ownership which set up a weird reporting structure and then has checked out to lunch. The team does things like take the 9 mil rolled over cap space last year and use it to cut Mo Wilkerson. The owners use this team as a piggy bank (again, no starting edge/OLB on an NFL roster with 17 mil in cap space?)  What are they going to do with next year's roll over, put it in a Roth IRA? 

The problems are way bigger than Spencer Long's high snaps or Todd Bowles not being a Belichek level genius. This roster is still suffering from Idzik's draft incompetence and Mac's Hackenberg/Devin Smith era to a lesser degree. You can't miss on every draft pick for 10 years and blame the HC for not being special.  and why do the GM's stink? because the owner will fire people if you fly a plane with a banner over his head. 

Woody Johnson is not rich enough to buy an NFL team in 2018. J&J was 50 years ago they use the team as their biggest piece of capital and investing let's say a real WR when Terrelle Pryor goes down, that money is being spent in the UK, probably at Harrods. 

As much as James Dolan is hated in NY, the die was cast the day Tagliabue made the Hess estate take the lower bid of Woody Johnson back around 2000/2001. Dolan has made many mistakes running the Knicks, but none of them were born of cheapness, while the Rangers have come very close and usually been competitive. As bad a GM as Phil Jackson turned out to be, it wasn't a move that speaks small ball. And the people running the Rangers have spare some early missteps been among the best in their league. 

[Matt39]

6 minutes ago, nyjunc said:

The point is they were well coached, they didn't use any excuses and they made the playoffs for the first time this century.  They competed, we didn't.

A road wild card playoff game in the AFC is hardly an indicator of anything. 

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, Matt39 said:

A road wild card playoff game in the AFC is hardly an indicator of anything. 

Just having a winning record, just competing for the postseason with that team was amazing.  I wish we had a coach more like McDermott than Bowles

[UnitedWhofans]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

Just having a winning record, just competing for the postseason with that team was amazing.  I wish we had a coach more like McDermott than Bowles

Bruce Coslet in 1991. 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, nyjunc said:

Who cares if anyone thought that?  Did anyone think Philly would even be a playoff team in 2017 let alone SB champs? Things change. In 2016 we were supposed to win 10+ games, it was evident early on that wasn't happening.  Expectations change when reality his. We should have won at least 11 with our talent and that sched in 2015.

 

We were 4-5 last year, there's no reason we shouldn't have won more than 5 games for the season.

Again, it's not about meaningless preseason expectations. As the seasons play out expectations change. No one thought we could be a game from the SB in 2009 but there we were with a double digit lead in the championship game.

 

 

WTF does Philly have to do with it?  We're talking overachieving and underachieving and you say who cares what they were predicted to win?  

Why cant you ever stop?  I dont see the copy and paste of you predicting 8 or so wins a year ago, before the season started.  LOL

Youre wrong, they werent predicted to win 11 or more and werent predicted to win 6 or more.  One season they sucked whent Revis, Mo, Fritz, etc fell off the planet.  Good for you, youre going to go on and on and on arguing a stupid point.  Bye....

[nyjunc]

1 minute ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Bruce Coslet in 1991. 

We'll see if McDermott is like coslet but even coslet was better than Bowles

[nyjunc]

3 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

WTF does Philly have to do with it?  We're talking overachieving and underachieving and you say who cares what they were predicted to win?  

Why cant you ever stop?  Youre wrong, they werent predicted to win 11 or more and werent predicted to win 6 or more.  One season they sucked whent Revis, Mo, Fritz, etc fell off the planet.  Good for you, youre going to go on and on and on arguing a stupid point.  Bye....

They are just one of a million examples I can give that defied preseason expectations.  Preseason expectations mean nothing, where a team is predicted means absolutely nothing.

The stupid point is using preseason expectations and not understanding how quickly things change in this league from year to year

[Jet Nut]

1 minute ago, nyjunc said:

They are just one of a million examples I can give that defied preseason expectations.  Preseason expectations mean nothing, where a team is predicted means absolutely nothing.

The stupid point is using preseason expectations and not understanding how quickly things change in this league from year to year

Preseason expectations mean nothing...........but they underachieved.......based on.............DUH, nothing.  Yeah, stupid to use expectations to decided whether they overachieve or underachieved.  LOL, you cant make this up. 

 

 

[rammagen]

5 hours ago, greenwichjetfan said:

1) Who?
2) The opposite end of that argument is that players who were garbage here and went on to have success elsewhere is an indictment of the HC. There are no such players. That fact alone is also an indictment of the GM.

again I can point to players that have regressed under his coaching. Once touch by the hand of Bowles is there any recovery?

[rammagen]

6 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Who?

Wilkerson and Richardson under Rex had very good yrs they regressed under Bowles. You can argue they were idiots and Lazy but would Wilkerson performed under Rex same with Richardson. Bowles came here in 2015 and while he does not use dlinemen the same they took a sharp nose dive. 12 sacks to 4 and 3 in Wilkerson's case 5 sacks to one for Sheldon. Sheldon's tackles went up though but he was not the same player. 

I'll ask who have we seen him really develop here. Someone who came in and and became a star. We have playesr because of where they were drafted  that are good but have you seen them really leap into star players? I just have a hard time blaming only the GM when coaching has a large play in how players play and develop.

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, rammagen said:

Wilkerson and Richardson under Rex had very good yrs they regressed under Bowles. You can argue they were idiots and Lazy but would Wilkerson performed under Rex same with Richardson. Bowles came here in 2015 and while he does not use dlinemen the same they took a sharp nose dive. 12 sacks to 4 and 3 in Wilkerson's case 5 sacks to one for Sheldon. Sheldon's tackles went up though but he was not the same player.  

I'll ask who have we seen him really develop here. Someone who came in and and became a star. We have playesr because of where they were drafted  that are good but have you seen them really leap into star players? I just have a hard time blaming only the GM when coaching has a large play in how players play and develop. 

 

Fair and reasonable take.  I certainly am no Bowles fan.  But anyone who is demanding he be fired better not be advocating Macc being around to hire the next coach.  That would be lunacy.  Almost as bad as the reverse; firing Macc and saddling Bowles with the next GM/VP. 

[Jet Nut]

5 hours ago, rammagen said:

Wilkerson and Richardson under Rex had very good yrs they regressed under Bowles. You can argue they were idiots and Lazy but would Wilkerson performed under Rex same with Richardson. Bowles came here in 2015 and while he does not use dlinemen the same they took a sharp nose dive. 12 sacks to 4 and 3 in Wilkerson's case 5 sacks to one for Sheldon. Sheldon's tackles went up though but he was not the same player. 

I'll ask who have we seen him really develop here. Someone who came in and and became a star. We have playesr because of where they were drafted  that are good but have you seen them really leap into star players? I just have a hard time blaming only the GM when coaching has a large play in how players play and develop.

Except that Mo had his best season, his 12 sack, pro bowl year under Bowles, not Rex.  The year before under Rex he had 6.

Sheldon went down every year from year one.

[VinnyT16]

I think espcially given the injuries Bowles has done a pretty good job with the defense. 

At the end of the day the only thing that matters is how Darnold is developing. How he plays in the 2nd half of the season is going to really determine if Bowles is back or not. 

[jgb]

9 hours ago, UnitedWhofans said:

Don’t worry about him. Maccagnan’s main goal last offseason was to get a QB. He did. His main goal next offseason is surround said QB. 

I wish I only had one KPI a year at my job

[Sperm Edwards]

11 hours ago, Jet Nut said:

Except that Mo had his best season, his 12 sack, pro bowl year under Bowles, not Rex.  The year before under Rex he had 6.

Sheldon went down every year from year one.

Absolutely true, but I might disagree with whether it's correlation or causation. Never mind about half of Mo's sacks came after the game was effectively over (2nd half, if not late 2nd half, with the team already ahead or behind by 20+ points). They didn't help the team so much as they helped Mo. Never mind that he was pretty much always lined up against the opponent's RT. 

What's not known is would Sheldon's production still have gone down if a 3rd (arguably 4th) player wasn't drafted at his position before the team's first OTA under Bowles? There's no rational basis for believing so. It's precisely the bottleneck at the same position, provided by Maccagnan, that pushed Bowles into putting one of them out of position. That was a DL good for run stopping, not for generating a pass rush. The increased sack total by Mo was due more to spending some $60-70m* for one year of above-average coverage (which still required a perfect storm of favorable scenarios, like playing other teams' backup** QBs and/or OLmen). The fact is even with all the coverage sacks players like Mo benefitted from, and even with the improved 2015 offense putting opponents into more must-pass possessions, the team's overall sack total dropped by over 10% from 2014 to 2015. 

 

*the $60-70m cost of 1 year of above-average coverage under Maccagnan/Bowles

• $39m Revis (one productive season)
• $7m Cromartie (not even one full productive season; he sucked and was then cut)
• $6m Skrine (not even counting his later years, which were suspect to say the least)
• $10m Gilchrist (one productive season)

**2015 opponents' scenarios helping inflate the Jets' sack total

• McCown's then-annual injury early in the game: 3 Manziel sacks, all of them in the 4th quarter with a 2-TD lead
• 2 games vs. get-sacked king Tannehill, who got sacked 50x/year back then: 3 sacks. Twice.
• Washington starting backup LT and backup RT and backup C against us: still only 1 sack
• NE starting a backup RT, trash LG, rookie C, and rookie RG. 3 sacks. Being a close game early, of course none of them came in the 2nd half, let alone NE's 14-point 4th quarter that sealed their victory. Then by the 2nd game, they were using a rookie LG, backup C, rookie RG, and backup RT. 2 more sacks there. I could arguably leave these games out because NE cheats and regularly holds with impunity.
• 6 sacks of Blake Bortles; he was sacked 51x that year (coming right off a 55-sack rookie season). They had a bust LT, rookie RG, and then-fringe-starter at RT. Good game, but it's not like everyone didn't pile onto Bortles, with his and Jax's then-gameplans of holding the ball forever to throw it deep.
• TJ Yates: he of the career 10% sack percentage. 1 sack. And a friggin' loss.
• NYG with a sub-backup-level, rookie LT in Flowers, plus a backup RT on the other side. 3 sacks.
• Ten: 5 sacks of Mariota (3 by Mo), except each and every one of them came after the Jets got out to a 20-0 lead and made Tennessee's offense 1-dimensional. Credit the team for that performance to reach that point, but it doesn't make them sack demons. 
• Dallas: played against Kellen Moore and Matt Cassel. Tagged them for a couple more.

It's not that everyone else gets no favorable matchups - far from it - but to ignore the wealth of such scenarios in 2015, and still not even reach a 40-sack total somehow, even when including a lot of garbage-time ones, led to ignorance of and reliance upon smoke and mirrors; later plans requiring the repetition of such luck then led to later crappy seasons when it didn't happen. It surprised some, starting in 2016, but didn't surprise everyone. 

The point? They weren't that good, and what good they did have cost 2-3 years' pay for 1 good season (i.e. not sustainable).

Oh, and Bowles sucks.  

[Jet Nut]

13 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

Absolutely true, but I might disagree with whether it's correlation or causation. Never mind about half of Mo's sacks came after the game was effectively over (2nd half, if not late 2nd half, with the team already ahead or behind by 20+ points). They didn't help the team so much as they helped Mo. Never mind that he was pretty much always lined up against the opponent's RT. 

What's not known is would Sheldon's production still have gone down if a 3rd (arguably 4th) player wasn't drafted at his position before the team's first OTA under Bowles? There's no rational basis for believing so. It's precisely the bottleneck at the same position, provided by Maccagnan, that pushed Bowles into putting one of them out of position. That was a DL good for run stopping, not for generating a pass rush. The increased sack total by Mo was due more to spending some $60-70m* for one year of above-average coverage (which still required a perfect storm of favorable scenarios, like playing other teams' backup** QBs and/or OLmen). The fact is even with all the coverage sacks players like Mo benefitted from, and even with the improved 2015 offense putting opponents into more must-pass possessions, the team's overall sack total dropped by over 10% from 2014 to 2015. 

 

*the $60-70m cost of 1 year of above-average coverage under Maccagnan/Bowles

• $39m Revis (one productive season)
• $7m Cromartie (not even one full productive season; he sucked and was then cut)
• $6m Skrine (not even counting his later years, which were suspect to say the least)
• $10m Gilchrist (one productive season)

**2015 opponents' scenarios helping inflate the Jets' sack total

• McCown's then-annual injury early in the game: 3 Manziel sacks, all of them in the 4th quarter with a 2-TD lead
• 2 games vs. get-sacked king Tannehill, who got sacked 50x/year back then: 3 sacks. Twice.
• Washington starting backup LT and backup RT and backup C against us: still only 1 sack
• NE starting a backup RT, trash LG, rookie C, and rookie RG. 3 sacks. Being a close game early, of course none of them came in the 2nd half, let alone NE's 14-point 4th quarter that sealed their victory. Then by the 2nd game, they were using a rookie LG, backup C, rookie RG, and backup RT. 2 more sacks there. I could arguably leave these games out because NE cheats and regularly holds with impunity.
• 6 sacks of Blake Bortles; he was sacked 51x that year (coming right off a 55-sack rookie season). They had a bust LT, rookie RG, and then-fringe-starter at RT. Good game, but it's not like everyone didn't pile onto Bortles, with his and Jax's then-gameplans of holding the ball forever to throw it deep.
• TJ Yates: he of the career 10% sack percentage. 1 sack. And a friggin' loss.
• NYG with a sub-backup-level, rookie LT in Flowers, plus a backup RT on the other side. 3 sacks.
• Ten: 5 sacks of Mariota (3 by Mo), except each and every one of them came after the Jets got out to a 20-0 lead and made Tennessee's offense 1-dimensional. Credit the team for that performance to reach that point, but it doesn't make them sack demons. 
• Dallas: played against Kellen Moore and Matt Cassel. Tagged them for a couple more.

It's not that everyone else gets no favorable matchups - far from it - but to ignore the wealth of such scenarios in 2015, and still not even reach a 40-sack total somehow, even when including a lot of garbage-time ones, led to ignorance of and reliance upon smoke and mirrors; later plans requiring the repetition of such luck then led to later crappy seasons when it didn't happen. It surprised some, starting in 2016, but didn't surprise everyone. 

The point? They weren't that good, and what good they did have cost 2-3 years' pay for 1 good season (i.e. not sustainable).

Oh, and Bowles sucks.  

Here why to me all of this is pointless.  You have to apply this to every player, teams sack totals.  How many of theee so called gift sacks did the other players in the league get?  The only importance of the totals to me is to see how a player stacks up compared to what is considered average and what is considered top level.  When you just try to downgrade your player what's the point?  The same scrutiny hasn't been applied to each and every other player.  It's a total waste of time from that perspective.  

[Sperm Edwards]

22 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

Here why to me all of this is pointless.  You have to apply this to every player, teams sack totals.  How many of theee so called gift sacks did the other players in the league get?  The only importance of the totals to me is to see how a player stacks up compared to what is considered average and what is considered top level.  When you just try to downgrade your player what's the point?  The same scrutiny hasn't been applied to each and every other player.  It's a total waste of time from that perspective.  

I said in the post that we're not the only ones, but it's important to identify whether we were really good at getting to the QB or if our stats were more due to circumstance. A team must know itself rather than delude itself.