Darnold and JD

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Snook said:

The offence was world's better with Sam than Trevor or Luke.

Backup QB is a top 3 need for this team. Gase should've been fired for his backup QBs last season. They don't belong in professional football.

[Lurker89]

19 minutes ago, jgb said:

You are an astute fan. Nothing in national media even contemplating that JD wants to "move forward with his guy." Can't think of another situation like this. I'm sure there must've been some but can't think of any.

 

I'm of the belief that having a young 1st round QB he didn't draft is a plus for Douglas. Its a win-win for him, either Sam pans out and he has his QB or he doesn't pan out and Joe gets to wait a couple years to cut bait  while building the roster for his hand picked QB. Why would he start the timer on his own hot seat any sooner than he has to by taking a QB now or next year?

Having Sam gives him built in time and the ability to wait for his QB prospect without having any culpability in taking Sam in the first place.

He can build the roster for 3 years and then say the last GMs QB pick didn't pan out now it's my turn and start his timer all over again. That would be the most Machiavellian approach.

 

[Vader]

Would have loved to see Darnold with vintage Braylon Edwards, that OL/running game, and the Rex D. We would be talking Super Bowl appearances...

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Lurker89 said:

 

I'm of the belief that having a young 1st round QB he didn't draft is a plus for Douglas. Its a win-win for him, either Sam pans out and he has his QB or he doesn't pan out and Joe gets to wait a couple years to cut bait  while building the roster for his hand picked QB. Why would he start the timer on his own hot seat any sooner than he has to by taking a QB now or next year?

Having Sam gives him built in time and the ability to wait for his QB prospect without having any culpability in taking Sam in the first place.

He can build the roster for 3 years and then say the last GMs QB pick didn't pan out now it's my turn and start his timer all over again. That would be the most Machiavellian approach.

 

Just so many examples of new GM's dumping high-drafted QBs almost immediately. What's unique about this situation is no one (as far as I can tell) in the national media is even speculating JD is considering this. 

[jetstream23]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Totally fair to say he hasn't had help. But again, that doesn't mean he's automatically great. He's at best, an incomplete, which is a disgusting waste of the first two years of a rookie top-5 drafted QB.

Those who want to go cheap this year make no sense. We need to pay whatever it takes to get a cast around him so we can properly evaluate him once and for all.

Just so happens that most first-round QBs flop. So I'm still betting flop. Sorry.

Agree.  Nobody can say he's great.  We also can't say he sucks.  The jury continues to be out....whether it's due to playing in 3 different offensive systems in 3 years (USC, Bates, Gase), getting Mono, having a Bottom 5 OLine in the NFL, or a Bottom 7 WR corps....we simply can't evaluate a guy with that much "noise in the data" in my opinion.

The best we can all hope for is a healthy, 16 game season with a minimum of NFL average protection and OLine play, and at least a reasonable cast of weapons (a drafted WR1, a returning Herndon, even Bell in his 2nd year, etc.).  THAT should give us the basis to form a data-driven opinion. 

[Matt39]

31 minutes ago, section314 said:

Do you really think that a guy like JD would leave a stable, successful, winning organization like the Eagles to come to this sh*thole if he at least didn't think he has a QB? C'mon, you are so much better than this.

This is operating under the assumption that JD and the Eagles didnt mutually part ways.

[SAR I]

56 minutes ago, jgb said:

Really strange that no one questions Darnold place.

He's 22 and the best QB in the AFC East.  Why would JD question him at all?

SAR I

[CTM]

7 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

It’s a good question, though. You’re a GM, team is static, who would you rather have as your QB for the next five years: Darnold or Murray? 

It's a good question. My gut says Darnold but I'm not sure if it's fandom that pushes him over the top or the fact that there isn't much precedence for a guy Kylers size having staying power. The lack of precedence is in and of itself risky

From a purely statistical viewpoint it's Murray.

[RedBeardedSavage]

15 minutes ago, jgb said:

It's possible both the OL and Darnold are not good. Every QB who played behind a bad OL isn't automatically an elite QB in in disguise. Luke Falk played behind same OL. Maybe he's a stud we need to give him a better supporting cast!

I don't understand those who are not skeptical of Darnold. Been a Jets fan too long to count chickens before the eggs hatch. 

Verify then trust when it comes to this team.

 

2009-10, Sanchez was playing behind the best offensive line in the league, enjoyed the #1 rushing attack and a solid cast of dudes to target in the passing game. 

Sam Darnold has arguably the worst offensive line in the league, no rushing attack whatsoever and his best receiver was Robby f***ing Anderson. 

And I'm supposed to throw that context out the window and strictly look at numbers? Absolutely not, I think you are way off base. It's fair to be patient and cautious, but bruh, you're honestly gonna compare him to Sanchez and Falk?

[jgb]

1 minute ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

 

2009-10, Sanchez was playing behind the best offensive line in the league, enjoyed the #1 rushing attack and a solid cast of dudes to target in the passing game. 

Sam Darnold has arguably the worst offensive line in the league, no rushing attack whatsoever and his best receiver was Robby f***ing Anderson. 

And I'm supposed to throw that context out the window and strictly look at numbers? Absolutely not, I think you are way off base. It's fair to be patient and cautious, but bruh, you're honestly gonna compare him to Sanchez and Falk?

No, you shouldn't throw context out the window. However, "his OL was crap," as true as that is, is not an argument that Darnold is elite. It just means we can't conclude he's as bad as his numbers suggest.

 

[Snook]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

Backup QB is a top 3 need for this team. Gase should've been fired for his backup QBs last season. They don't belong in professional football.

Oh, I agree.  My point was he did elevate the play of the players around him.(I also don't think it's that simple.)

[section314]

Just now, Matt39 said:

This is operating under the assumption that JD and the Eagles didnt mutually part ways.

Fair point. That said, JD was like the hottest commodity in the league for a few years. He probably had other opportunities. I don't care how close he is to Gase, you are not going to hang your shingle somewhere if you  don't believe in the QB in place.

[JTJet]

7 minutes ago, jgb said:

Rather had a QB who "gets exposed" after an MVP season than a never-was putting up Sanchez numbers, without Sanchez team results.

Why does it have to be such extremes all the time? MVP or Sanchez? 

Is it really out of the realm of possibility that Darnold could be way above average once he has something resembling a team around him? 

Its universally acknowledged that our team was bad from top to bottom, but I truly do not understand the willingness to give up so easily on him? Especially considering he has only played 26 games and he is the same age/younger than the top 3 QBs this year.

[jgb]

1 minute ago, Snook said:

Oh, I agree.  My point was he did elevate the play of the players around him.(I also don't think it's that simple.)

I see your point but seems the players performed at their level with Darnold and at terrible level with the incompetent Falk.

[RedBeardedSavage]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

No, you shouldn't throw context out the window. However, "his OL was crap," as true as that is, is not an argument that Darnold is elite. It just means we can't conclude he's as bad as his numbers suggest.

 

Hey, be patient and skeptical, that's all you. 

I can't deny I was totally triggered by that Sanchez comparison.

It's not that "ohhh Darnold has a bad o-line, he can be better" it's more like the giant f***ing chasm between the protection 'chez enjoyed here and what Darnold deals with now makes any statistical comparison absolutely ridiculous IMO. 

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, JTJet said:

Why does it have to be such extremes all the time? MVP or Sanchez? 

 

I was responding to a post that invoked Cam Newton. He was NFL MVP.

[jgb]

Just now, RedBeardedSavage said:

Hey, be patient and skeptical, that's all you. 

I can't deny I was totally triggered by that Sanchez comparison.

It's not that "ohhh Darnold has a bad o-line, he can be better" it's more like the giant f***ing chasm between the protection 'chez enjoyed here and what Darnold deals with now makes any statistical comparison absolutely ridiculous IMO. 

I'm a Jets fan. Patience is my hallmark.

[FidelioJet]

9 minutes ago, jgb said:

Just so many examples of new GM's dumping high-drafted QBs almost immediately. What's unique about this situation is no one (as far as I can tell) in the national media is even speculating JD is considering this. 

Yes, but that’s clearly because no one in the national media doesn’t think Darnold isn’t a very good football player.

JD likely understands too that finding a better QB will be very hard to do.  Sam is not the problem here and it’s very clear to anyone paying attention.

[Beerfish]

In the list of what is wrong with the New York Jets Sam Darnold is about #842

[choon328]

20 minutes ago, jgb said:

Rather had a QB who "gets exposed" after an MVP season than a never-was putting up Sanchez numbers, without Sanchez team results.

Watson has had his ass saved many times by Hopkins.  It's going to be interesting to see him without Hopkins.  He's also come up really small in big spots.  The league will catch up to Jackson.  He's not Michael Vick.  He doesn't have near the arm talent. Jackson has been a great runner and a good enough passer in a run heavy offense.  I wouldn't put him in Canton yet. 

[Jets723]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Yes, but that’s clearly because no one in the national media doesn’t think Darnold isn’t a very good football player.

JD likely understands too that finding a better QB will be very hard to do.  Sam is not the problem here and it’s very clear to anyone paying attention.

Probably the first thing I agree with you on ? 

[Jetsfan80]

Nevertheless, it's rare territory where a previous GM draft the right QB and gets the boot. 

Macc had very little to do with drafting Darnold.

It required Gase to stroll in and stage a coup before the Johnson’s finally got the message as to how bad Macc was.

[section314]

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

In the list of what is wrong with the New York Jets Sam Darnold is about #842

Man, this virtual world has made you a very easy grader.?

[Jets723]

4 minutes ago, RedBeardedSavage said:

Hey, be patient and skeptical, that's all you. 

I can't deny I was totally triggered by that Sanchez comparison.

It's not that "ohhh Darnold has a bad o-line, he can be better" it's more like the giant f***ing chasm between the protection 'chez enjoyed here and what Darnold deals with now makes any statistical comparison absolutely ridiculous IMO. 

Absolutely.  Nobody has said he has been great.  But we recognize when you have one of the worst olines in your first two seasons AND little to no weapons it makes us extremely hard to play well on a consistent basis

[jgb]

1 minute ago, FidelioJet said:

Yes, but that’s clearly because no one in the national media doesn’t think Darnold isn’t a very good football player.

JD likely understands too that finding a better QB will be very hard to do.  Sam is not the problem here and it’s very clear to anyone paying attention.

My point is it's nearly (maybe totally) unprecendented for a Gm to get canned after finding the consensus QB of the future.

Not an indictment of Darnold (despite the emotional reaction of fanboys) but it's a pretty unique situation.

1 minute ago, Beerfish said:

In the list of what is wrong with the New York Jets Sam Darnold is about #842

Yet GMs get canned because teams don't perform, and the QB accounts for about 30% of the team's success or failure.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, choon328 said:

Watson has had his ass saved many times by Watkins.  It's going to be interesting to see him without Watkins.  He's also come up really small in big spots.  The league will catch up to Jackson.  He's not Michael Vick.  He doesn't have near the arm talent. Jackson has been a great runner and a good enough passer in a run heavy offense.  I wouldn't put him in Canton yet. 

Hopkins?

[choon328]

Just now, jgb said:

Hopkins?

Yes sorry lol

[Lurker89]

17 minutes ago, jgb said:

Just so many examples of new GM's dumping high-drafted QBs almost immediately. What's unique about this situation is no one (as far as I can tell) in the national media is even speculating JD is considering this. 

If he cuts bait now and his pick doesn't work out then he gets blasted for his pick not working out and for giving up on Sam too early. If he plays his cards right he gets to build the roster while not being culpable for taking Sam in the first place.

At that point if Sam hasn't proven himself he can give his hand picked QB the keys to a fully loaded roster while that new QB is on his rookie deal.

He can make a bigger mess now by haphazardly switching QBs or he can be calculated get his team in place and strike down the road if Sam doesn't turn out to be the guy.

Other GMs come into different situations and "put their stamp on it" and "get their guy." Looking at this situation, JD has been given a QB drafted in the top 5 just two years ago and can parlay that into a much better situation down the road if he plays it correctly.

Personally I think Sam pans out but we'll see.

[jgb]

12 minutes ago, section314 said:

Fair point. That said, JD was like the hottest commodity in the league for a few years. He probably had other opportunities. I don't care how close he is to Gase, you are not going to hang your shingle somewhere if you  don't believe in the QB in place.

Except there are innumerable examples of new GMs dumping highly-drafted QBs within a year of joining a new team.

[Snook]

8 minutes ago, jgb said:

I see your point but seems the players performed at their level with Darnold and at terrible level with the incompetent Falk.

It's a team game.

[jgb]

Just now, Lurker89 said:

If he cuts bait now and his pick doesn't work out then he gets blasted for his pick not working out and for giving up on Sam too early. If he plays his cards right he gets to build the roster while not being culpable for taking Sam in the first place.

At that point if Sam hasn't proven himself he can give his hand picked QB the keys to a fully loaded roster while that new QB is on his rookie deal.

He can make a bigger mess now by haphazardly switching QBs or he can be calculated get his team in place and strike down the road if Sam doesn't turn out to be the guy.

Other GMs come into different situations and "put their stamp on it" and "get their guy." Looking at this situation, JD has been given a QB drafted in the top 5 just two years ago and can parlay that into a much better situation down the road if he plays it correctly.

Personally I think Sam pans out but we'll see.

I agree, just pointing out how strange and unique a situation this seems to be. 

[jgb]

Just now, Snook said:

It's a team game.

Uh huh. 

[Beerfish]

29 minutes ago, section314 said:

Man, this virtual world has made you a very easy grader.?

Quantity if hotdogs at the stadium is #820

[Matt39]

15 minutes ago, section314 said:

Fair point. That said, JD was like the hottest commodity in the league for a few years. He probably had other opportunities. I don't care how close he is to Gase, you are not going to hang your shingle somewhere if you  don't believe in the QB in place.

We may never know. The Eagles had moved Berry into a role over JD right before he left for the Jets (and Berry is now in CLE). Roseman seemed to be shaking things up. 

[jgb]

Darnold likely still gets two more years. Gase will be the fall guy next year if he doesn't take the leap. I actually want that so Williams becomes HC. Williams will leave next year for HC somewhere if not here.