Seahawks defense only team to ever allow more than 1,200 passing yards through three weeks

[bitonti]

6 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

This year is for crap. The reason the Jets suck is because their players are terrible and their coach is an idiot. The reason the Seahawks are good because they have a god-tier QB. This sh*t about feelings is just a way of dressing up your philosophy that all Jets players are good and deserve to be paid whatever they ask for.

If that were true I'd like Sam Darnold

by the way, let's talk about Marcus Maye

the guy who was "the same player as 33" 

 

GW has been playing Maye like Adams and guess what it's not the same, not even close 

[dbatesman]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

If that were true I'd like Sam Darnold

by the way, let's talk about Marcus Maye

the guy who was "the same player as 33" 

 

GW has been playing Maye like Adams and guess what it's not the same, not even close 

I think Marcus Maye sucks too. The difference between us is that I think he sucks because he sucks and you think he sucks because he's sad his friend left

[bitonti]

9 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

The great Jamal Adams was loathed in the Jets locker room.

I'm going to go point by point, just for fun. 

Maybe he was loathed. Bill Romanowski was loathed.  Lazy folks find those who hold them accountable to be annoying.

 

Quote

"Mosley opted out right after he collected his $10 million dollar bonus check for showing up, driving his cash take-home from his MacContract to $30 mil for two quarters played on a team he never wanted to come to. "

Mosely received his 10 million dollar check in May. That's called a fact check. He opted out about a week after the Adams trade. Perhaps these are unrelated coincidences. Perhaps not. 

 

Quote

"In 2019, the Jets were 1-7 when Jamal was “the star” of the Jets “culture” and they went 6-2 when Darnold returned and played semi-decently."

now we know they'd be winless without him, both years. Well we don't know that but it's possible

Quote

"Prior to that, with Adams leading “the culture,” the team was 9-23."

I'd take 9 wins over 0

Quote

"Prior to that, while he was a not-captain at LSU, they never finished higher than third in the SEC West. "

3rd is better than last

Quote

The Seahawks were 11-5 last year with Bradley McDougald leading their “culture.”

and this year they will win more games

Quote

Russell Wilson is completing 77% of his passes with 14 TDs, 1 INT, and a 139 rating through three games. I feel like having a QB put up those stats is “the culture,” and not a handful of tackles by a tiny ILB. 

there are three parts of the team, offense, defense and special teams no single unit can do it on their own 

having a QB not suck is in fact a big part of winning. And so is having difference makers on defense

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, dbatesman said:

I think Marcus Maye sucks too. The difference between us is that I think he sucks because he sucks and you think he sucks because he's sad his friend left

Maye and Adams are not friends they are two strong safeties drafted in the same year because Mac is a moron

there was a fun theory on this forum that Maye would be just as good as Adams in GW's defense

and that Bradley McDougald was just as good as Adams 

we need Maury to determine the truth 

 

[dbatesman]

6 minutes ago, bitonti said:

Maye and Adams are not friends they are two strong safeties drafted in the same year because Mac is a moron

there was a fun theory on this forum that Maye would be just as good as Adams in GW's defense

and that Bradley McDougald was just as good as Adams 

we need Maury to determine the truth 

 

Well, take it up with the forum, I guess, because I never thought Maye would be as good as Adams.

[Losmeister]

1 hour ago, T0mShane said:

Seahawks are giving up 29 ppg. Jets are giving up 28 ppg when you deduct for Darnold’s two pick-sixes 

a transformative player?

[More Cowbell]

Oh please,  really? They are 3-0. I would gladly surrender double that if the Jets could be 3-0.

[Bleedin Green]

19 minutes ago, bitonti said:

By the way for those looking at passing yards as some kind of metric

The teams that go up double digits give up passing yards over the course of the game. It's garbage time

Meanwhile teams that are losers like the Jets keep their passing totals low because they are down double digits and the other team is killing clock

Sent from my Pixel 2 using JetNation.com mobile app
 

That might be an interesting point, if it wasn't for that tiny little fact that it's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.  Both of the Seahawks last 2 games came down to the very last drive, specifically because of the defense's immeasurable levels of incompetence.  But I know you're not one to let silly things like reality get in the way of your predetermined conclusions.

[bitonti]

4 minutes ago, dbatesman said:

Well, take it up with the forum, I guess, because I never thought Maye would be as good as Adams.

well

to go back to your earlier comment I don't think "all Jets players are great and deserve to be paid" 

but I do believe having this much open cap is negligent. they  are a football team and should have to pay someone. By not paying 33 they send the message to the locker room "No matter how good you play, you aren't getting paid." 

every game becomes preseason for these guys. They Kelechi Osemele their way out of game action. is it correct and right? Hell no but neither is the blatant tank.  

these guys aren't dumb and they aren't robots. They know when a franchise is trying and when they aren't. 

what happens is a team full of "business decisions"

that Mcdougald non tackle was the most gutless defensive play since the days of Cro 

would Jamal Adams make this Jets team undefeated? hell no 

 but all the 33 haters should admit that stuff, rolling around on the carpet, didn't happen as much or even at all with 33 around 

the team used to try 

I don't know what I'm watching anymore it's like a team trying to lose on purpose 

[Warfish]

31 minutes ago, bitonti said:

If that were true I'd like Sam Darnold

by the way, let's talk about Marcus Maye

the guy who was "the same player as 33" 

 

GW has been playing Maye like Adams and guess what it's not the same, not even close 

And yet:

Weekly Production Comparison Review:  Adams vs. Maye

Adams:  3 Games, 3 starts, 14 Tackles, 9 Assists (23 total), 2 Sacks, 3 TFL, 1 Forced Fumble, 1 Pass Defensed.  76.9% Completion Again Rate.

Maye:  3 Games, 3 Starts, 14 Tackles, 11 Assists (25 total), 2 Sacks, 2 TFL, 1 Forced Fumble, 3 Passes Defensed. 70.0% Completion Against Rate.

I guess Adams must be producing alot of intangibles, because his superior value sure isn't populating the stat-sheet yet in 2020.

What this tells me is that Maye is making more of an effort on a worse defense than Adams, and as part of that is missing more tackles.  And yet his production is equal to Adams so far.

Well, till tomorrow, when Maye will play and Adams (on Sunday) potentially won't.

Be honest Bit, are you seeing "difference maker" in this stat comparison, Adams v. Maye?  I'm not.

[T0mShane]

17 minutes ago, bitonti said:

having a QB not suck is in fact a big part of winning. And so is having difference makers on defense

Where, in Jamal Adams’ history, has he been a “difference maker”? Because the only difference we’re seeing is that the Seahawks defense has gotten worse since he’s playing for it. Alas, he’s injured now, so perhaps we’ll see this difference this week when he’s not playing.

[Beerfish]

Seattle is last in yards given up and passing yards given up, 2nd vs the run, 22nd in points given up.

can you spell :

BOX SAFETY

[Warfish]

1 minute ago, bitonti said:

but I do believe having this much open cap is negligent. they  are a football team and should have to pay someone. By not paying 33 they send the message to the locker room "No matter how good you play, you aren't getting paid." 

I agree and disagree.

It IS an issue that we are seemingly so materially under the cap every year.  It concerns me that the "payoff" of saving our cap space never seems to come.  Someone in the media needs to start pressing JD (and the Johnsons) on this issue IMO.

I do not, in any way, agree with you that "not paying" Adams sends the message you think.  If there is a message, it's "play out your rookie contract, then we'll talk" which is the right message 99% of the time if your name isn't Mahomes.  If there is a message it's "we're not paying a Strong Safety weak in pass coverge franchise QB-type money because they're not worth it".

There are times I REALLY wish the NFL had an equivalent to baseball's "Wins Above Replacement", because that is exactly the metric we need (IMO) to show that Adams is in fact NOT worth the money and attention he was demanding based on his actual performance (as opposed to his hype and All-Pro selection).  I don't think Adams made much of a difference when he was here, and I don't think he's making much of a difference now that he is gone (or in Seattle for that matter).  

JD has alot to answer for so far.  Trading Adams for those #1 picks is not one of them.

[bitonti]

4 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Be honest Bit, are you seeing "difference maker" in this stat comparison, Adams v. Maye?  I'm not.

The difference in their stats are the missed tackles

Jamal has missed 3, Maye has missed 7 

 

10 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Where, in Jamal Adams’ history, has he been a “difference maker”?  

the difference between the 2020 Jets and the 2019 Jets

that's the difference 

[Warfish]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The difference in their stats are the missed tackles

Jamal has missed 3, Maye has missed 7 

"Difference Maker"

Yeah, no.  

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

the difference between the 2020 Jets and the 2019 Jets

that's the difference 

2019 Jets 0-3 start

2020 Jets 0-3 start

Huge difference.  'UGE!

[bitonti]

5 minutes ago, Warfish said:

There are times I REALLY wish the NFL had an equivalent to baseball's "Wins Above Replacement", because that is exactly the metric we need (IMO) to show that Adams is in fact NOT worth the money and attention he was demanding based on his actual performance (as opposed to his hype and All-Pro selection).  I don't think Adams made much of a difference when he was here, and I don't think he's making much of a difference now that he is gone (or in Seattle for that matter).  

JD has alot to answer for so far.  Trading Adams for those #1 picks is not one of them.

If we had that WAR stat it would prove my point that Adams was the only thing keeping the defense respectable and the defense was the only thing keeping this team respectable 

the statement I bolded, that's like your opinion man

the missed tackles by a safety are the difference between wins and losses

that's a safeties most important job by the way to make tackles 

not to intercept the football or keep the passing yards low. 

the safety's number one job is to be the last dude back there and make that tackle 

***

more broadly Jets fans who believe they stink the same with Adams as without him are like the Sam Darnold fans who believe if he'd have just been drafted by Pittsburgh he'd be better

that's all hypothetical

here's the news: the Jets DO stink without Adams worse than before. Darnold is about to be outplayed by Brett Rypien

If the Jets were 3-0 without Adams and the Seahawks were 0-3 with him, i'm sure we wouldn't be speaking in hypotheticals 

[Bleedin Green]

3 minutes ago, bitonti said:

well

to go back to your earlier comment I don't think "all Jets players are great and deserve to be paid" 

but I do believe having this much open cap is negligent. they  are a football team and should have to pay someone. By not paying 33 they send the message to the locker room "No matter how good you play, you aren't getting paid." 

every game becomes preseason for these guys. They Kelechi Osemele their way out of game action. is it correct and right? Hell no but neither is the blatant tank.  

these guys aren't dumb and they aren't robots. They know when a franchise is trying and when they aren't. 

what happens is a team full of "business decisions"

that Mcdougald non tackle was the most gutless defensive play since the days of Cro 

would Jamal Adams make this Jets team undefeated? hell no 

 but all the 33 haters should admit that stuff, rolling around on the carpet, didn't happen as much or even at all with 33 around 

the team used to try 

I don't know what I'm watching anymore it's like a team trying to lose on purpose 

You've proven repeatedly to have a complete lack of understanding of how the NFL salary cap works, and that's a bit of a problem when it's the basis for so many of your conspiracy theories.

As far as supposed team impact, the 0-3 Jets started 0-4 last year with Adams.  This claim that there is some massive difference is fictitious nonsense.  In reality, they sucked the entire time he was here.  Last year the team was crippled by the losses of Darnold (0-3 without, 7-6 with) and Beachum (0-3 without, 7-6 with), neither of whom anyone is going to be arguing the greatness of, yet were completely unimpacted by games without Adams (1-1 without, 6-8 with).  Funny how it works out when you actually use fact-based reality, and not nonsensical conjecture.

[T0mShane]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

The difference in their stats are the missed tackles

Jamal has missed 3, Maye has missed 7 

 

the difference between the 2020 Jets and the 2019 Jets

that's the difference 

The 2019 Jets were 1-7. 

[bitonti]

Just now, Bleedin Green said:

You've proven repeatedly to have a complete lack of understanding of how the NFL salary cap works, and that's a bit of a problem when it's the basis for so many of your conspiracy theories.

I understand that this Jets team has not spent to the cap since the Rex Ryan era

the last time they made the playoffs incidentally

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, T0mShane said:

The 2019 Jets were 1-7. 

until they weren't 

there's no Jamal Adams in this locker room to right this ship on defense

 

[Warfish]

8 minutes ago, bitonti said:

If we had that WAR stat it would prove my point that Adams was the only thing keeping the defense respectable and the defense was the only thing keeping this team respectable

Shame we don't have it then, cause I don't think so.

Quote

 

the statement I bolded, that's like your opinion man

Actually it's not, it's proven by every metric I can find so far.

Quote

the missed tackles by a safety are the difference between wins and losses

No, they're really not.  0-3 start with Adams.  0-3 start without Adams. 

Almost exactly the same stats Maye vs. Adams, Maye better vs. the pass with more passes defensed, Adams a few less missed tackles. 

No meaningful difference in team record, no meaningful difference in production.  All for a position that isn't a premium position in the first place?  Yeah, we have ALOT of problems, we really do, starting with Head Coach and QB. 

Strong Safety production is WAY down the list so far in 2020.

Quote

that's a safeties most important job by the way to make tackles 

Actually, I'd argue in the pass-dominated NFL, any safety, even a Strong Safety, most vital job is to defend against the pass and make INT's.  

In any event, it's not worth ongoing debate, you think he's a difference maker and you won't be moved, since it's a core of your "cheap Johnsons" belief.  The actual production numbers simply don't support it, but you're entitled to your view.  

[T0mShane]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

until they weren't 

there's no Jamal Adams in this locker room to right this ship on defense

 

It was definitely his locker room tirade over not getting traded to the Cowboys at the deadline that really rallied the troops. 

[Jetsfan80]

17 minutes ago, Warfish said:

There are times I REALLY wish the NFL had an equivalent to baseball's "Wins Above Replacement", because that is exactly the metric we need (IMO) to show that Adams is in fact NOT worth the money and attention he was demanding based on his actual performance (as opposed to his hype and All-Pro selection).

While we don't have that, we can follow the money a bit.  When Adams was traded, the Vegas win projections for Seattle and the Jets barely moved.  I think Seattle's went up by 0.3 or something insignificant like that.  

But arguing with Bit is like arguing with a cat, so any information added to the discussion is fairly useless.  

[Bleedin Green]

4 minutes ago, bitonti said:

I understand that this Jets team has not spent to the cap since the Rex Ryan era

the last time they made the playoffs incidentally

So then is your argument the formula for success is paying more money to the same exact failure of a roster?

If you're not making such a laughable argument, then that would suggest it's a matter of using that money to commit to the acquisition of talent that would look to upgrade the roster... oh, like say what acquiring a starter and 3 draft picks is specifically designed to do.

[bitonti]

Just now, Warfish said:

Actually, I'd argue in the pass-dominated NFL, any safety, even a Strong Safety, most vital job is to defend against the pass and make INT's.  

the word itself has safe in it 

the safety part of safety is being the last line of defense

@TomShane likes to say Kerry Rhodes was a better safety than 33 

Rhodes was a graceful athlete, a ballhawk, but also soft as a marshmellow

 if we judge a player purely by passing stats, as this thread is attempting to do with the seahawks defense, then yes you are all correct and I'm dead wrong

as for stats more broadly -  i just don't think we can slice and dice the NFL stats to such an extent 

anyone who has taken a college level stats course should know about sample sizes 

a 16 game season isn't really enough 

a game like baseball with 162 games you're getting closer to "statistical significance" 

I'm going to say this again because it's important, there's isn't the kind of sample size for any of use to be using 200 snaps to determine who is better or worse

but if we are going to use 200 snaps, Adams is in fact better because of the missed tackles

when a safety misses a tackle the YAC implications are enormous

those are the touchdowns, the game breaker plays that end up on highlights 

the safety like Rhodes who takes chances in coverage will have better stats than 33 but stats don't mean jack crap when there's only 16 discrete events over 6 months 

[Bleedin Green]

2 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

While we don't have that, we can follow the money a bit.  When Adams was traded, the Vegas win projections for Seattle and the Jets barely moved.  I think Seattle's went up by 0.3 or something insignificant like that.  

But arguing with Bit is like arguing with a cat, so any information added to the discussion is fairly useless.  

Jeez, you must really hate cats.

[joewilly12]

Seattle Seahawks 3-0 

 

[bitonti]

1 minute ago, Bleedin Green said:

So then is your argument the formula for success is paying more money to the same exact failure of a roster?

If you're not making such a laughable argument, then that would suggest it's a matter of using that money to commit to the acquisition of talent that would look to upgrade the roster... oh, like say what acquiring a starter and 3 draft picks is specifically designed to do.

they didn't upgrade the roster tho. They downgraded, as those with eyes can attest 

the formula for success starts with adequate funding 

the Jets have starved the beast since Rex 

even their current spend looks higher than it is, trading Adams costs 6.5 mil in dead cap, Quincy cut costs 5 mil in dead cap etc 

the Jets aren't being frugal they are being negligent 

and it's been this way since about 2012

 

[Lurker89]

[bitonti]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

While we don't have that, we can follow the money a bit.  When Adams was traded, the Vegas win projections for Seattle and the Jets barely moved.  I think Seattle's went up by 0.3 or something insignificant like that.  

But arguing with Bit is like arguing with a cat, so any information added to the discussion is fairly useless.  

That statement was the definition of fairly useless 

it's a personal attack and it makes me want to engage in personal attacks 

instead, here's an article about Jets win totals from VegasInsider

i feel like it could have been taken from this board in August, verbatim 

Quote

N.Y. JETS - OVER 6.5

Are we really going to recommend the...New York Jets (6 ½)? Why not? It might surprise that the J-Men would actually have to regress from last season’s 7-9 mark to not clear the win number in 2020.

Indeed, the Jets did win 7 a year ago, as HC Adam Gase saved a job that looked precarious at midseason by winning 6 of the last 8 in 2019. Included were wins in the last two, amid rumors of internal strife, one of those effectively knocking the Steelers out of the playoffs.

Will there will be as much adversity to deal with this season? Likely not, especially if they avoid another 0-4 start, which coincided with Sam Darnold missing almost a month with mononucleosis. In the offseason, Gase set about rebuilding his offensive line via free agency, adding various versatile pieces to better protect Darnold, who has been under siege most of his first two years. Those moves should allow first-round pick OT Mekhi Becton from Louisville to be eased into the lineup. Meanwhile, second-round pick WR Denzel Mims from Baylor could prove an exciting addition to Darnold’s group of targets, while the ageless RB Frank Gore was enlisted in free agency to take some of the load off of Le’Veon Bell.

Meanwhile, GM Joe Douglas also believes he has ample replacements for SS Jamal Adams, including Bradley McDougald, acquired from Seattle in the same deal that also landed the Jets a trove of draft picks down the road. The key to making a playoff run, however, remains Darnold, now working in the second year of the Gase system, with what seems an upgraded supporting cast. Even falling short of the postseason, the Jets can get “over” 6½. Besides, there will be no one in the stands to boo at MetLife Stadium this fall!

https://www.vegasinsider.com/nfl/story.cfm/story/2018158

 

[T0mShane]

Some people thought Jamal was great and deserved a monster contract extension from the Jets. There were others who thought that Jamal really good, but strong safeties aren’t all that important and don’t deserve huge contracts. Jamal is in Seattle, playing great, and their defense is among the worst in football, so it would appear that those who believe even great strong safeties don’t deserve huge contracts are pretty spot on. Should also be noted that Seattle has ~$15 mil in cap space and Adams is still playing on his rookie deal. He better hope his groins heals up quick.

[T0mShane]

6 minutes ago, bitonti said:

That statement was the definition of fairly useless 

it's a personal attack and it makes me want to engage in personal attacks 

instead, here's an article about Jets win totals from VegasInsider

i feel like it could have been taken from this board in August, verbatim 

 

I’m old enough to remember when bitonti said that three games wasn’t enough of a sample size to assess the performance of a team or unit. (It was at 10:56 a.m.)

[Warfish]

19 minutes ago, bitonti said:

the word itself has safe in it 

the safety part of safety is being the last line of defense

@TomShane likes to say Kerry Rhodes was a better safety than 33 

Rhodes was a graceful athlete, a ballhawk, but also soft as a marshmellow

 if we judge a player purely by passing stats, as this thread is attempting to do with the seahawks defense, then yes you are all correct and I'm dead wrong

as for stats more broadly -  i just don't think we can slice and dice the NFL stats to such an extent 

anyone who has taken a college level stats course should know about sample sizes 

a 16 game season isn't really enough 

a game like baseball with 162 games you're getting closer to "statistical significance" 

I'm going to say this again because it's important, there's isn't the kind of sample size for any of use to be using 200 snaps to determine who is better or worse

but if we are going to use 200 snaps, Adams is in fact better because of the missed tackles

when a safety misses a tackle the YAC implications are enormous

those are the touchdowns, the game breaker plays that end up on highlights 

the safety like Rhodes who takes chances in coverage will have better stats than 33 but stats don't mean jack crap when there's only 16 discrete events over 6 months 

Cool story bro. 

Like I said, not worth the time.  It's akin to a passionate debate about which of my wet turds smells the best.

You want to rage over not paying Adams $15+M/yr for 6 years for this sh*teshow of a Jets team, best of luck with that.  

[Bleedin Green]

2 minutes ago, bitonti said:

they didn't upgrade the roster tho. They downgraded, as those with eyes can attest 

the formula for success starts with adequate funding 

the Jets have starved the beast since Rex 

even their current spend looks higher than it is, trading Adams costs 6.5 mil in dead cap, Quincy cut costs 5 mil in dead cap etc 

the Jets aren't being frugal they are being negligent 

and it's been this way since about 2012

 

Again, you have absolutely no idea how the salary cap works.  That's your own problem, and itself does not prove a single thing.  The dead money argument is nonsensical considering that (1) every single team in the league has to deal with that against the cap and (2) that is money they already paid out to players.

Plus, as you've been told repeatedly whenever you've thrown out your fictitious conspiracy theory, your attempts to cite all this money combined the Jets supposedly refuse to spend is based on an entirely false premise.  Ever since the rolling cap was implemented in the NFL, the only potential spending the team could make for every single prior year combined is only in their current available salary cap space, and literally not one penny more.  They may have plenty of it this year, but also have a steaming pile of crap roster undeserving of being paid a cent more, as if that'll magically make them play any better.  For a team needing a complete roster rebuild, investing all of the available money you have into a single player that has been part of years worth of failure is not a solution.  By your own argument, you'd be asserting this money should only be actively spent in free agency, which of course then contradicts your Adams diatribe. 

Of course, I anxiously await your response to one fraction of a single sentence, in which you are both factually incorrect and contradicting yourself.

[dbatesman]

5 minutes ago, bitonti said:

well

to go back to your earlier comment I don't think "all Jets players are great and deserve to be paid" 

but I do believe having this much open cap is negligent. they  are a football team and should have to pay someone. By not paying 33 they send the message to the locker room "No matter how good you play, you aren't getting paid." 

every game becomes preseason for these guys. They Kelechi Osemele their way out of game action. is it correct and right? Hell no but neither is the blatant tank.  

these guys aren't dumb and they aren't robots. They know when a franchise is trying and when they aren't. 

what happens is a team full of "business decisions"

that Mcdougald non tackle was the most gutless defensive play since the days of Cro 

would Jamal Adams make this Jets team undefeated? hell no 

 but all the 33 haters should admit that stuff, rolling around on the carpet, didn't happen as much or even at all with 33 around 

the team used to try 

I don't know what I'm watching anymore it's like a team trying to lose on purpose 

I get what you're saying in a larger sense--it sucks that the Jets have once again chosen to get worse before they get better, with no guarantee that they will in fact get better. I think where we differ is in how much worse the team actually got. We were 20-42 in games he started.

No idea what you're talking about with the rolling around on the carpet stuff. I seem to remember plenty of times they looked like they quit while he was here. Wasn't it Adams himself who complained about the lack of "dawgs" on the roster?