Rank-a-Bust (Sanchez v. Geno v. Darnold)

[jgb]

2 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Justin Herbert had the # 32 OL in the NFL last year and was the Offensive Rookie of the Year.  Yes, his receivers were much better than Darnold's.  But 31 TDs to 10 INTs doesn't lie.  He was excellent in less than ideal circumstances.  That alone demonstrates that Darnold should have performed much better than he did if he was any good at playing QB.  Certainly he should have ranked a good bit higher than QB # 36 in his 3rd season in the league.  

Sometimes life isn't fair and you get dealt a bad hand.  You need to rise above it from time to time.  Not just suck and be left with a huge pile of excuses.  

And the Ghost of Flacco performed better with the same team. Despite not wanting to be there at all. They probably had to wheel him tied to a hand truck to get him to the stadium. I honestly thought there was a very good chance he'd retire when named starter for a few games. 

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, Warfish said:

Agreed.

Something I'm a bit tired of with the Jets, is drafting QB's that never see the light of day or get a chance to even be the #2.  Hackenberg being the poster child (he would have failed, we all know, but still).  Now it's Morgan.

Drafting a QB "till we hit on one" is an idea I support, but the guys we take need reps, and they don't get them when they are permanently behind a veteran holding the #2 spot purely due to cost and NFL Head Coaches ultra-conservativism when it comes to QB's. 

 

Good points.  

When it comes to QB's, you just have to be willing to "fail quickly".  If you think the guy doesn't have if early on, replace him with a new young QB asap.  Even if you're just replacing your QB2.  And if you end up in the envious position of having 2 excellent young QB's, trade the one you deem to be the weaker asset.

Drafting Hackenberg and then avoiding a QB the next year was the worst kind of football sin.  You just can't afford to double down on sunken costs in this league, and it cost us dearly.

[k-met57]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Justin Herbert had the # 32 OL in the NFL last year and was the Offensive Rookie of the Year.  Yes, his receivers were much better than Darnold's.  But 31 TDs to 10 INTs doesn't lie.  He was excellent in less than ideal circumstances.  That alone demonstrates that Darnold should have performed much better than he did if he was any good at playing QB.  Certainly he should have ranked a good bit higher than QB # 36 in his 3rd season in the league.  

Sometimes life isn't fair and you get dealt a bad hand.  You need to rise above it from time to time.  Not just suck and be left with a huge pile of excuses.  

i am sorry we cant have a rational discussion if you think the chargers are in the universe of the jets with Hunter Henry, Austin Eckler, Mike Williams, Keenan Allen. you cant compare the two whatsoever...even with whatever qualifier you decide to attach to it. the answer to my question is, that QB doesnt exist.

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

Good points.  

When it comes to QB's, you just have to be willing to "fail quickly".  If you think the guy doesn't have if early on, replace him with a new young QB asap.  Even if you're just replacing your QB2.  And if you end up in the envious position of having 2 excellent young QB's, trade the one you deem to be the weaker asset.

Drafting Hackenberg and then avoiding a QB the next year was the worst kind of football sin.  You just can't afford to double down on sunken costs in this league, and it cost us dearly.

Yes, Jets need to learn to move on from failed QBs faster. Ala Arizona. That took chutzpah. Fortune favors the bold.

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

i am sorry we cant have a rational discussion if you think the chargers are in the universe of the jets with Hunter Henry, Austin Eckler, Mike Williams, Keenan Allen. you cant compare the two whatsoever...even with whatever qualifier you decide to attach to it. the answer to my question is, that QB doesnt exist.

 

If I may, @Jetsfan80

[#27TheDominator]

1 hour ago, jgb said:

I wish the Jets would take QBs when they don't think they need them because history has shown they probably do. Keep taking swings until you get on base.

To be fair, they took Pennington when Testaverde was playing at a pretty high level even if he was coming off the Achilles tear.  Geno wasn't really a "need" pick.  I am no Sanchez guy, but they were certainly ready to roll with him.  Rex pretty obviously preferred it.  Tannenbaum regularly took QBs - they mostly sucked.  They've taken like 13 QBs in the last 20 years.  Ugh.  Let's please have some quality over quantity. 

[Warfish]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

To add to this:  I guess the best solution would be to give Morgan as many QB2 reps as possible and see if he is capable of winning the job this summer.  If he doesn't, THEN go ahead and pick up a veteran as soon as you're aware he isn't ready. 

A veteran doesn't need as much time to catch up on the playbook as a younger guy, so the veteran would likely be ready to steal the QB2 job pretty quickly, even in a short period of time.  Plus, the longer you wait into the offseason, the more likely a higher caliber QB will get cut loose during roster cutdowns.   There are always "surprise cuts" at that stage.

Seems right to me. 

And if that is the case, we start looking for another draftable #2 QB in the 2022 Draft. 

Keep drafting till we hit one (technically two, a starter and a primary backup).

[k-met57]

6 minutes ago, jgb said:

Well and good but you can't skip over the million miles of logic necessary to get from "situation sucked" to "therefore QB good." Like high school Algebra, you gotta show your work for credit.

first and foremost i have eyes. i could tell you that Mark Sanchez wasnt good, and he could have gone to all the AFCCG's in the universe. although you could argue the jets didnt really invest in progressing Mark as a QB, they just said...hey kid...hand it off 30 times a game and let Rex's D handle it....and then....they took away his receivers, RB's, OL, and D...and said...ok now throw it lol

Darnold showed promise the first year 2800 yards, 17TD's and 15INT...it felt like the jets managed him and tried ot bring him along slowly

second year, Gase decides that Darnold is going to be Payton manning, no play action, no playing to Darnolds strengths with movement...basically do the oppositive. then injury....then Sam comes back and finishes with 19/13 and 3000 yards vs a weak schedule...things certainly looked like they were looking up

then last year...dumpster fire...corona, injuries, talentless team around Darnold again...and a coach who refuses to play to his players strength...instead forcing his system and his guys on the field loss after loss

Darnold is elite moving around, escaping the pocket, and on intermediate throws, he needs PA, he needs players who can run routes and separate...he is not a deep ball thrower like Flacco....thats not his game. i believe Joe BRady will get the most out of him...because he is not a stubborn horses ass like Gase was.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

To be fair, they took Pennington when Testaverde was playing at a pretty high level even if he was coming off the Achilles tear.  Geno wasn't really a "need" pick.  I am no Sanchez guy, but they were certainly ready to roll with him.  Rex pretty obviously preferred it.  Tannenbaum regularly took QBs - they mostly sucked.  They've taken like 13 QBs in the last 20 years.  Ugh.  Let's please have some quality over quantity. 

Quantity leads to quality in the hardest position to scout IMHO

[#27TheDominator]

26 minutes ago, jgb said:

Macc also had how many drafts compared to Idzik? Apples to oranges to compare the "highlights" from each man's tenure.

I'm not saying Mac was so much better.  I just thought you said that Idzik's 2013 class had more talent than all of Mac's combined.  Sheldon was good, but Winters and Oday Aboushi are not making up for Jamal Adams. 

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

first and foremost i have eyes. i could tell you that Mark Sanchez wasnt good, and he could have gone to all the AFCCG's in the universe. although you could argue the jets didnt really invest in progressing Mark as a QB, they just said...hey kid...hand it off 30 times a game and let Rex's D handle it....and then....they took away his receivers, RB's, OL, and D...and said...ok now throw it lol

Darnold showed promise the first year 2800 yards, 17TD's and 15INT...it felt like the jets managed him and tried ot bring him along slowly

second year, Gase decides that Darnold is going to be Payton manning, no play action, no playing to Darnolds strengths with movement...basically do the oppositive. then injury....then Sam comes back and finishes with 19/13 and 3000 yards vs a weak schedule...things certainly looked like they were looking up

then last year...dumpster fire...corona, injuries, talentless team around Darnold again...and a coach who refuses to play to his players strength...instead forcing his system and his guys on the field loss after loss

Darnold is elite moving around, escaping the pocket, and on intermediate throws, he needs PA, he needs players who can run routes and separate...he is not a deep ball thrower like Flacco....thats not his game. i believe Joe BRady will get the most out of him...because he is not a stubborn horses ass like Gase was.

Thank you very much for writing all this. I really appreciate something deeper than the standard defenses of Darnold which have nothing to do with him and everything to do with his situation which are independent variables. If you are right about Sam, you will have earned your victory lap and I'll respond to your bump to admit you were right  

[jgb]

1 minute ago, #27TheDominator said:

I'm not saying Mac was so much better.  I just thought you said that Idzik's 2013 class had more talent than all of Mac's combined.  Sheldon was good, but Winters and Oday Aboushi are not making up for Jamal Adams. 

That was @Jetsfan80 who said it but I didn't disagree lol

[#27TheDominator]

31 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

If Leonard Williams had done anything in a Jets uniform I'd agree with you.  I should have only included their Jets' performance in the argument.  

And Douglas working his magic in the Adams trade wasn't a Maccagnan accomplishment, so I don't give him any credit there, either.  Fair or not, I don't care, Macc was the absolute worst.

I honestly could not give a sh*t.  I was just responding to Idzik's 2013 being better than all of Mac's drafts combined.  I think most would take Williams or Williams over Richardson.  Geno, Winters and Oday Aboushi probably don't even add up to Jordan Jenkins. 

[#27TheDominator]

4 minutes ago, jgb said:

Quantity leads to quality in the hardest position to scout IMHO

Not for us!

[k-met57]

1 minute ago, jgb said:

Thank you very much for writing all this. I really appreciate something deeper than the standard defenses of Darnold which have nothing to do with him and everything to do with his situation which are independent variables. If you are right about Sam, you will have earned your victory lap and I'll respond to your bump to admit you were right  

i am glad we could see eye to eye after all lol i just think he deserved better from this garbage franchise, maybe he is a bust and maybe he isnt....but even the busts deserve a chance to show they are busts as opposed to having no chance at success.

we keep cycling through QB's for the last 50 years and people are like, oh man...the jets just cant find "the guy"...the reality is we probably had the guy (or guys) and we did what the jets do...we blew it. for all our sakes i hope its different now with Wilson.

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

Not for us!

 

[Jetsfan80]

51 minutes ago, k-met57 said:

i am sorry we cant have a rational discussion if you think the chargers are in the universe of the jets with Hunter Henry, Austin Eckler, Mike Williams, Keenan Allen. you cant compare the two whatsoever...even with whatever qualifier you decide to attach to it. the answer to my question is, that QB doesnt exist.

I acknowledged the Charger wepppinnzzz were much better.  It doesn't explain why Herbert had arguably the best rookie season of any QB in NFL history whereas Darnold was QB # 36 in his 3rd season. 

The only explanation that makes sense is Herbert is good, maybe very good, while Darnold is bad or very bad.  A QB's success or failure is not fully dictated by his circumstances.  Darnold sucks, AND his circumstances sucked.  He was not automatically good because he was dealt a poor hand. 

If Darnold is secretly good, he needs to prove he's good.  Maybe he will in Carolina but I sincerely doubt it.  We have a whole lot of sample size to suggest Darnold is very bad at his job at this point.  Including his performance in college, where he was the most turnover prone QB in FBS his final season at USC.  He sucked long before the mean old Jets "ruined" him.

[Jetsfan80]

44 minutes ago, #27TheDominator said:

To be fair, they took Pennington when Testaverde was playing at a pretty high level even if he was coming off the Achilles tear.  Geno wasn't really a "need" pick.  I am no Sanchez guy, but they were certainly ready to roll with him.  Rex pretty obviously preferred it.  Tannenbaum regularly took QBs - they mostly sucked.  They've taken like 13 QBs in the last 20 years.  Ugh.  Let's please have some quality over quantity. 

To sum up my thoughts:  If you have 1 really good QB, draft another.  If you have 2 really good QB's, trade one.  Then draft another.  

If you have 3 really good QB's, you have too many and need to trade 2, but really, who ends up with 3 really good QB's?

[k-met57]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I acknowledged the Charger wepppinnzzz were much better.  It doesn't explain why Herbert had arguably the best rookie season of any QB in NFL history whereas Darnold was QB # 36 in his 3rd season. 

The only explanation that makes sense is Herbert is good, maybe very good, while Darnold is bad or very bad.  A QB's success or failure is not fully dictated by his circumstances.  Darnold sucks, AND his circumstances sucked.  He was not automatically good because he was dealt a poor hand. 

If Darnold is secretly good, he needs to prove he's good.  Maybe he will in Carolina but I sincerely doubt it.  We have a whole lot of sample size to suggest Darnold is very bad at his job at this point.  Including his performance in college, where he was the most turnover prone QB in FBS his final season at USC.  He sucked long before the mean old Jets "ruined" him.

Ok let’s talk after the week 1 game. Please remember to hit me up.

[jgb]

9 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

To sum up my thoughts:  If you have 1 really good QB, draft another.  If you have 2 really good QB's, trade one.  Then draft another.  

If you have 3 really good QB's, you have too many and need to trade 2, but really, who ends up with 3 really good QB's?

Basically there’s no reason not to get another QB lotto ticket every year. Adjust which round you do that in based on team circumstances.

8 hours ago, k-met57 said:

Ok let’s talk after the week 1 game. Please remember to hit me up.

I have to ask: if 40 career games of bad play didn’t convince you that Sam is no good, wouldn’t it be a little disingenuous to victory lap if Darnold has one good game against the Jets? For years Darnold supporters have said we need time to evaluate whether or not is a bust. I think that cuts both ways. That said, I know we live in the era of insta-takes and have already said many times that the told-you-shows will rain down every time Sam has a decent outing for the rest of his career.

[joewilly12]

13 hours ago, jgb said:

Sanchez clear #1 for me. Darnold v. Geno was a tough call -- but gave edge to Geno because he was just so much cheaper to acquire even though he is one of the most unlikeable Jets of my lifetime.

Geno Smith was better here than Sam Darnold. 

[Lupz27]

13 hours ago, jgb said:

Based on whatever criteria are relevant to you:

-Athletic skill

-Memories

-Future potential

-Favorite food

-How taut his buttocks look in uniform

Darnold hasn’t even turned 24 yet just got out of the worst jail in NFL history the GasePenalLeague.  You can’t call him a bust just yet.

[Lupz27]

2 hours ago, jgb said:

And the Ghost of Flacco performed better with the same team. Despite not wanting to be there at all. They probably had to wheel him tied to a hand truck to get him to the stadium. I honestly thought there was a very good chance he'd retire when named starter for a few games. 

How many games did Flacco win with the Jets again?

[Lupz27]

2 hours ago, k-met57 said:

first and foremost i have eyes. i could tell you that Mark Sanchez wasnt good, and he could have gone to all the AFCCG's in the universe. although you could argue the jets didnt really invest in progressing Mark as a QB, they just said...hey kid...hand it off 30 times a game and let Rex's D handle it....and then....they took away his receivers, RB's, OL, and D...and said...ok now throw it lol

Darnold showed promise the first year 2800 yards, 17TD's and 15INT...it felt like the jets managed him and tried ot bring him along slowly

second year, Gase decides that Darnold is going to be Payton manning, no play action, no playing to Darnolds strengths with movement...basically do the oppositive. then injury....then Sam comes back and finishes with 19/13 and 3000 yards vs a weak schedule...things certainly looked like they were looking up

then last year...dumpster fire...corona, injuries, talentless team around Darnold again...and a coach who refuses to play to his players strength...instead forcing his system and his guys on the field loss after loss

Darnold is elite moving around, escaping the pocket, and on intermediate throws, he needs PA, he needs players who can run routes and separate...he is not a deep ball thrower like Flacco....thats not his game. i believe Joe BRady will get the most out of him...because he is not a stubborn horses ass like Gase was.

Yeah losing Darnold is gonna hurt real bad in a few years if Wilson doesn’t outperform him.

[Joe Willie White Shoes]

You have to measure Smith vs Darnold and consider when they were drafted.  Darnold was drafted a round earlier and the Jets gave up 3 2nd round picks to take him. That makes Darnold the biggest bust of the three by far.  

[jgb]

4 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

How many games did Flacco win with the Jets again?

A Darnold defender wants to go to W/L record?

[jgb]

6 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

Darnold hasn’t even turned 24 yet just got out of the worst jail in NFL history the GasePenalLeague.  You can’t call him a bust just yet.

Rosen is only 7 months older 

[Lupz27]

33 minutes ago, jgb said:

A Darnold defender wants to go to W/L record?

Ok how many games did the Jets win when Darnold did not start last 3 years.  I’ll wait while you count.

[Lupz27]

32 minutes ago, jgb said:

Rosen is only 7 months older 

Oh what team does he start for now?

[jgb]

7 hours ago, Lupz27 said:

Ok how many games did the Jets win when Darnold did not start last 3 years.  I’ll wait while you count.

So your argument is that Darnold is a franchise QB because he's better than Luke Falk.

With defenders like you, Darnold doesn't need critics.

[Lupz27]

8 minutes ago, jgb said:

So your argument is that Darnold is a franchise QB because he's better than Luke Falk.

With defenders like you, Darnold doesn't need critics.

Yeah you define my argument how it fits you.  The kid is ******* 23.

[jgb]

1 hour ago, Lupz27 said:

Yeah you define my argument how it fits you.  The kid is ******* 23.

And Josh Rosen is 7 months older, just turned 24. Does something magic happen at 24?

In fact, Rosen is more likely to turn it around than Darnold (still not likely) and I infamously called Rosen "undraftable" back in 2018. Simply: he has sucked but for many less games than Darnold. Smaller sample size of suck > larger sample size of suck, statistically, at least.

[Lupz27]

16 minutes ago, jgb said:

And Josh Rosen is 7 months older, just turned 24. Does something magic happen at 24?

In fact, Rosen is more likely to turn it around than Darnold (still not likely) and I infamously called Rosen "undraftable" back in 2018. Simply: he has sucked but for many less games than Darnold. Smaller sample size of suck > better than larger sample size of suck, statistically, at least.

What team is Rosen penciled in to start on?  FYI I also hated Rosen, and still do as a QB.  And yes it’s probably to early to call him a bust also who knows maybe he is thrust into starting for the 49ers and the rest is history ??‍♂️ 

[jgb]

39 minutes ago, Lupz27 said:

What team is Rosen penciled in to start on?  FYI I also hated Rosen, and still do as a QB.  And yes it’s probably to early to call him a bust also who knows maybe he is thrust into starting for the 49ers and the rest is history ??‍♂️ 

Rosen and Darnold are both busts with a reasonable certainty. While I understand why you are saying it's "too early" to say that with 100% confidence, I'm comfortable calling it now because it's just so unlikely given what we know of their performance to date and that turnaround for either would be nearly unprecedented. Yes it's possible one/both of them could be the next Rich Gannon but there is nothing -- to me at least -- that says this is significantly more likely for Darnold than any other first-round QB that has performed badly in their first 3 years in the league. If Darnold were not drafted by the Jets, no one here would be banging the drum for him to be that once-in-a-generation QB that has a miraculous turnaround. If pressed to say which is more likely (we're talking a matter of a single-digit percentage difference) I'd have to -- reluctantly because I hate him as a player -- go Rosen due to smaller sample size.

[jgb]

11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I acknowledged the Charger wepppinnzzz were much better.  It doesn't explain why Herbert had arguably the best rookie season of any QB in NFL history whereas Darnold was QB # 36 in his 3rd season. 

The only explanation that makes sense is Herbert is good, maybe very good, while Darnold is bad or very bad.  A QB's success or failure is not fully dictated by his circumstances.  Darnold sucks, AND his circumstances sucked.  He was not automatically good because he was dealt a poor hand. 

If Darnold is secretly good, he needs to prove he's good.  Maybe he will in Carolina but I sincerely doubt it.  We have a whole lot of sample size to suggest Darnold is very bad at his job at this point.  Including his performance in college, where he was the most turnover prone QB in FBS his final season at USC.  He sucked long before the mean old Jets "ruined" him.

How do we know I am not a Franchise QB? Maybe I just have never been given the opportunity.

11 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

To sum up my thoughts:  If you have 1 really good QB, draft another.  If you have 2 really good QB's, trade one.  Then draft another.  

If you have 3 really good QB's, you have too many and need to trade 2, but really, who ends up with 3 really good QB's?

Wow, it's nice to see my position so clearly laid out in so few words. I'll be stealing this.

10 hours ago, joewilly12 said:

Geno Smith was better here than Sam Darnold. 

It hurts to see that written but not as  much as it hurts to realize I agree. And I hate, hate, hate Geno Smith and his slackjawed face and slapdick attitude.