Resetting the New York Jets' roster, two years after The Big Shake-Up

[Jet2020]

7 hours ago, mfmartin said:

 

I wouldn’t put either Mosley or Crowder in the 4 best.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

Oh yeah, a pro bowl LB and Crowder are just average players on this team full of all pros and HoFs. 

[rangerous]

i don't quite understand why cimini said it was 'bad' when they launched mac.  maybe in the sense that gase was interim gm but it's not like he made any real horrible moves before bringin douglas back in.  about the only bad thing is they didn't launch mac well be for the draft so the new gm (maybe douglas, maybe not) would have time to evaluate the team.  regardless, it was probably gase's best move ever.

[JohnnyLV]

3 hours ago, LIJetsFan said:

I guess it time to confess.  While Mac was a slug in hindsight, I was all in on BPA for the past decade or so.   Seems I was wrong....Glad JD is here  

I have never agreed with BPA with the possible exception be if you are an elite team with no real holes. 

The amazing thing about Mac's "BPA" philosophy was that it did not take into account need, positional value or scheme fit all. He just chose whoever he had the highest grade on. It was idiotic.

Scheme and positional value are baked into JDs grades so even if he chose BPA it would be a more suitable pick. That said in his first two drafts JD has certainly drafted for need in the first two rounds.

[JohnnyLV]

45 minutes ago, rangerous said:

i don't quite understand why cimini said it was 'bad' when they launched mac.  maybe in the sense that gase was interim gm but it's not like he made any real horrible moves before bringin douglas back in.  about the only bad thing is they didn't launch mac well be for the draft so the new gm (maybe douglas, maybe not) would have time to evaluate the team.  regardless, it was probably gase's best move ever.

When I think of "bad" Jets memories one of the the ones that comes to me first is the images from the Jets war room on Day 2 when Mac was literally the only person in the room

[Bronx]

1 hour ago, rangerous said:

i don't quite understand why cimini said it was 'bad' when they launched mac.  maybe in the sense that gase was interim gm but it's not like he made any real horrible moves before bringin douglas back in.  about the only bad thing is they didn't launch mac well be for the draft so the new gm (maybe douglas, maybe not) would have time to evaluate the team.  regardless, it was probably gase's best move ever.

Gase's biggest contribution to the organization, firing Mac and bringing Joe.

[varjet]

I feel like JD, his staff, and the coaching staff had a vision for improving the roster and this team.

For JD's first 11 months he did not do much, other than waste $9mm on Kalil.  

To be nice to JD, it appeared that too many of his draft picks were influenced by coaches who are no longer here.   Morgan (drop back QB), Perine (not a zone block RB fit), Davis (mystery), Zuniga (maybe a 3-4 LB fit) and Clark (power man, not zone, G) all appear to be long shots to work out.  

[mfmartin]

Oh yeah, a pro bowl LB and Crowder are just average players on this team full of all pros and HoFs. 

Mosley has played 1 half of good football in two seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[mfmartin]

Who you got over them? Honestly.  I'm not sure who's better on the roster then those 4 dudes.  Lawson/C.Davis maybe but they're more hope then anything else.  It's certainly not anyone else JD has brought in.  I mean, you could be all homerific and say Becton but that's not like a real thing yet.  Sure, he looks promising but homeboy was pulling himself from games for a broken toe nail last year.  It's great he's good when he's in but availability means a ton at LT.  DBrick missed 1 snap his entire career, when he was pulled for a trick play.  Becton might have a higher upside but if you're not available, what good are you?
 

Becton and Lawson are easily in my top 4. I’d put Davis over Crowder.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[Jet2020]

3 hours ago, mfmartin said:

 

Mosley has played 1 half of good football in two seasons.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

 

I’m guessing you believe players never get injured in this league? 

Not like he’s some injury prone LB that can’t come back strong. He missed 3 games in 5 years in Baltimore. He’s going to be our best defender. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. 

[Sperm Edwards]

7 hours ago, varjet said:

I feel like JD, his staff, and the coaching staff had a vision for improving the roster and this team.

For JD's first 11 months he did not do much, other than waste $9mm on Kalil.  

To be nice to JD, it appeared that too many of his draft picks were influenced by coaches who are no longer here.   Morgan (drop back QB), Perine (not a zone block RB fit), Davis (mystery), Zuniga (maybe a 3-4 LB fit) and Clark (power man, not zone, G) all appear to be long shots to work out.  

I think Zuniga is the opposite. I didn't watch him at all in school, but paper anyway, his skillset is more of a hand in dirt 43DE than a read & react 34OLB. He seems far more likely to succeed in this scheme than the prior one.

Davis was drafted for his upside, mostly based on speed. Clearly he wasn't starting material as a rooki. At least Douglas didn't totally double down on him, but bringing in a stopgap starter isn't enough to keep Davis down if he takes a major leap forward.

Morgan's scheme fit is less of a concern than him showing he belongs on an NFL field...or roster. If any QB2 is on the field for a game or longer, a coach will tailor things more to that QB's perceived strengths rather than shoehorning him. Better that than a lesser QB who's a better on-paper scheme fit, but it's not like this is a scheme that requires smart & accurate passing as a mere afterthought. That's still the top priority wherever a QB lands.

[Bronx]

4 minutes ago, Sperm Edwards said:

He seems far more likely to succeed in this scheme than the prior one.

And so the remainder players on the team post Gase.

[rangerous]

13 hours ago, johnnysd said:

When I think of "bad" Jets memories one of the the ones that comes to me first is the images from the Jets war room on Day 2 when Mac was literally the only person in the room

that photo speaks volumes.  i'm not a big fan of concensus and having big staffs of sycophants but mac needed someone there to give some advice even on day 2.

[32EBoozer]

21 hours ago, THE BARON said:

Everything and I do mean EVERYTHING hinges on Zac Wilson.  His destiny is now entwined with that of Joe Douglas and Saleh.  If Wilson crashed, do does the Joe Douglas era and subsequently Saleh as well.

Wilson’s chances of success exponentially better with all the improvements made. A competent OC ( vs. Duggins) in a system that limits Qb reads to a few quick reads, a WR group that provides size, straight  speed and quick twitch off the line and an OL that is strong off the blind side  

Just a couple of tweaks prior to camp at CB, backup Qb and CB and we should be the best we can actually be by game 1. Whether that translates to wins will be the question 

 

[Claymation]

I’m guessing you believe players never get injured in this league? 
Not like he’s some injury prone LB that can’t come back strong. He missed 3 games in 5 years in Baltimore. He’s going to be our best defender. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. 

Outside of the QB position, football is a young man’s game and CJ isn’t getting any younger.

He’s a good player, but the recent draftees have more upside and will have more impact because of the positions they play.

[OilfieldJet]

The roster is much improved,  by any measure. But, if the Jet’s were a stock, they would be GameStop: they were so bad, had such little talent, that any improvement would be huge - they were oversold. But, just like GameStop isn’t really worth $150/share, the Jet’s need to prove it on the field.

 

My business analogy for the day.

[Jet2020]

1 hour ago, Claymation said:

Outside of the QB position, football is a young man’s game and CJ isn’t getting any younger.

He’s a good player, but the recent draftees have more upside and will have more impact because of the positions they play.

CJ is 28 years old. He’s literally just about to enter his prime age for LBs. 

[Claymation]

He turns 29 in June.

Football isn't baseball. QBs peak the latest 25 - 28. RBs the earliest 23-24. LBs start to decline after their 5th year.

[THE BARON]

2 hours ago, 32EBoozer said:

Wilson’s chances of success exponentially better with all the improvements made. A competent OC ( vs. Duggins) in a system that limits Qb reads to a few quick reads, a WR group that provides size, straight  speed and quick twitch off the line and an OL that is strong off the blind side  

Just a couple of tweaks prior to camp at CB, backup Qb and CB and we should be the best we can actually be by game 1. Whether that translates to wins will be the question 

 

Agree fully.  CB is the obvious weak spot.  BUT... QB is still the big mystery.   No QB = No Team.  Great QB = Competitive team regardless of a few soft spots in the roster.  With Wilson, I think we'll know rather quickly.  Any new QB will take some time to fully learn the position, but we'll have a lot to go on after a single game.  Either he's going to be fantastic, or he wont be able to play in the NFL.  I don't think there will be lingering questions for very long with this fellow. 

[JohnnyLV]

2 hours ago, THE BARON said:

Agree fully.  CB is the obvious weak spot.  BUT... QB is still the big mystery.   No QB = No Team.  Great QB = Competitive team regardless of a few soft spots in the roster.  With Wilson, I think we'll know rather quickly.  Any new QB will take some time to fully learn the position, but we'll have a lot to go on after a single game.  Either he's going to be fantastic, or he wont be able to play in the NFL.  I don't think there will be lingering questions for very long with this fellow. 

Nick friggin Mullens had success in this system as a rookie, and Garappolo who is very limited has done well. It is a great system for a rookie QB and Zach already played basically the same system in college. It would be shocking for Wilson to not at least be decent even in his first year. He is a far better prospect than Sam, in a dramatically better situation.

[UntouchableCrew]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:33 AM, THE BARON said:

Everything and I do mean EVERYTHING hinges on Zac Wilson.  His destiny is now entwined with that of Joe Douglas and Saleh.  If Wilson crashed, do does the Joe Douglas era and subsequently Saleh as well.

The other pieces of the roster are important of course and Douglas is indeed doing all that can be done to help Wilson succeed, but there is no guarantee that Wilson is going to work out.  

It it all riding on Wilson.

I actually don't really agree with this. If they successfully build up the team, improve the roster, change the culture, etc. but Wilson is only "okay" they'll get a chance to replace him.

[THE BARON]

16 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I actually don't really agree with this. If they successfully build up the team, improve the roster, change the culture, etc. but Wilson is only "okay" they'll get a chance to replace him.

I don't think so.  If the Douglas regime does not make the playoffs in three years time, they are done.  If Wilson flops, forget about playoffs for the next three years and forget about Douglas. Even if you have an 8-8 team for three years, Douglas will be written off as another "also-ran" Jets coach and run out of town. 

[UntouchableCrew]

3 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

I don't think so.  If the Douglas regime does not make the playoffs in three years time, they are done.  If Wilson flops, forget about playoffs for the next three years and forget about Douglas. Even if you have an 8-8 team for three years, Douglas will be written off as another "also-ran" Jets coach and run out of town. 

I guess it depends on what you mean by "flops." 

Mark Sanchez sucked and we were one game from the Super Bowl twice.

I absolutely think we can make the playoffs without Zach Wilson "panning out" so to speak.

[THE BARON]

39 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

Nick friggin Mullens had success in this system as a rookie, and Garappolo who is very limited has done well. It is a great system for a rookie QB and Zach already played basically the same system in college. It would be shocking for Wilson to not at least be decent even in his first year. He is a far better prospect than Sam, in a dramatically better situation.

Could be, yes.  I still look at Wilson as a major crap shoot.  

 

 

[THE BARON]

7 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "flops." 

Mark Sanchez sucked and we were one game from the Super Bowl twice.

I absolutely think we can make the playoffs without Zach Wilson "panning out" so to speak.

Sancez didnt suck.  He could suck, but he didn't suck all the time.  His problem was always concentration.  He had all the tools.  His head was often not in the game.  Almost like he was someplace else in his mind.  Hence, all the head scratching interceptions and the butt-fumble.  When his head was in the game, he was very good.  Lots of late come backs due to some outstanding QB play.   When there was the more intense level of pressure in the playoffs, it caused Sachez to concentrate more and he played some of his best football.  In short, he didn't suck all together.  He sucked often.

Sam Darnold did not suck and does not suck. He is a stylist that was never put into an offensive system that would allow him to thrive.  I've outlined that many times here and detailed the type of offence that suits his skill set.

Wilson is going to be brilliant or he is going to flame out obviously and quickly.

[jgb]

On 5/26/2021 at 7:06 PM, LIJetsFan said:

I guess it time to confess.  While Mac was a slug in hindsight, I was all in on BPA for the past decade or so.   Seems I was wrong....Glad JD is here  

Well, no draft strategy works if you are terrible at scouting and projecting (garbage in/garbage out). Macc's failures alone are not an indictment of BPA (although I'm no fan of it myself). It's like saying appendectomies don't work because the drunk behind the liquor store tried it on his buddy with a screwdriver.

21 hours ago, johnnysd said:

I have never agreed with BPA with the possible exception be if you are an elite team with no real holes. 

Agree.

Quote

The amazing thing about Mac's "BPA" philosophy was that it did not take into account need, positional value or scheme fit all. He just chose whoever he had the highest grade on. It was idiotic.

I have a very narrow definition of BPA. Many (most?) people here expand the strict definition to allow consideration for things like team need and scheme fit while still calling it "BPA." My quibble is that this expanded definition subsumes the only other known draft strategy -- taking the player that best helps your team. Everything becomes "BPA" unless there is some GM out there that uses the CRAP ONN strategy (Crappiest Available Player at Position of Non-Need).

Quote

Scheme and positional value are baked into JDs grades so even if he chose BPA it would be a more suitable pick. That said in his first two drafts JD has certainly drafted for need in the first two rounds.

Which is wise. Otherwise, you end of drafting Wilkerson, Coples, Sheldumb, and Leo in the first round over a five year period.

 

[UntouchableCrew]

29 minutes ago, THE BARON said:

Sancez didnt suck.  He could suck, but he didn't suck all the time.  His problem was always concentration.  He had all the tools.  His head was often not in the game.  Almost like he was someplace else in his mind.  Hence, all the head scratching interceptions and the butt-fumble.  When his head was in the game, he was very good.  Lots of late come backs due to some outstanding QB play.   When there was the more intense level of pressure in the playoffs, it caused Sachez to concentrate more and he played some of his best football.  In short, he didn't suck all together.  He sucked often.

Sam Darnold did not suck and does not suck. He is a stylist that was never put into an offensive system that would allow him to thrive.  I've outlined that many times here and detailed the type of offence that suits his skill set.

Wilson is going to be brilliant or he is going to flame out obviously and quickly.

If you think that Darnold and Sanchez didn't suck then I think you're gonna like Wilson and wouldn't worry about him "flaming out."

[THE BARON]

41 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "flops." 

Mark Sanchez sucked and we were one game from the Super Bowl twice.

I absolutely think we can make the playoffs without Zach Wilson "panning out" so to speak.

perhaps

[THE BARON]

4 minutes ago, UntouchableCrew said:

If you think that Darnold and Sanchez didn't suck then I think you're gonna like Wilson and wouldn't worry about him "flaming out."

i sure hope so 

[JohnnyLV]

1 hour ago, THE BARON said:

Could be, yes.  I still look at Wilson as a major crap shoot.  

 

 

SO? He will work or he won't  He is immensely talented and from all accounts (unlike Sam and Mark and Geno) is a super hard worker, film junkie and loves football. Give him every opportunity to succeed and he likely will. Stop letting fear rule decisions on this team

[THE BARON]

32 minutes ago, johnnysd said:

SO? He will work or he won't  He is immensely talented and from all accounts (unlike Sam and Mark and Geno) is a super hard worker, film junkie and loves football. Give him every opportunity to succeed and he likely will. Stop letting fear rule decisions on this team

not like we are making any team decisions here.  

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, THE BARON said:

I don't think so.  If the Douglas regime does not make the playoffs in three years time, they are done.  If Wilson flops, forget about playoffs for the next three years and forget about Douglas. Even if you have an 8-8 team for three years, Douglas will be written off as another "also-ran" Jets coach and run out of town. 

Maybe.  I think the Johnson's have no interest in having to hit the reset button again any time soon.  Even in 3 years, which seems like a while but really isn't for this ownership group, considering how many times they've had to hire a new GM/HC.

Douglas is the first halfway decent GM we've had since maybe Tannenbaum.  And he's probably better than Tannenbaum, and not by a slim margin either.  They think so much of him that they've basically handed him the keys to the franchise, something they've been unwilling to do with prior GM's.

I think if the team is competitive but Wilson sucks, Douglas will get another crack with a different QB.  There's not going to be some playoff mandate if the rest of the roster as a whole is moving in the right direction but merely held back by having taken the wrong QB.

[32EBoozer]

1 hour ago, Jetsfan80 said:

I think if the team is competitive but Wilson sucks, Douglas will get another crack with a different QB.

Agreed but it will be a proven vet. The way teams are flipping QBs these days, just build the team around Wilson. We’ll get back to at least .500 with Wilson  in year 3. If he’s not the answer we pull off a Colts, LA, TB type power play to get their Qb closer

[Jetsfan80]

17 minutes ago, 32EBoozer said:

Agreed but it will be a proven vet. The way teams are flipping QBs these days, just build the team around Wilson. We’ll get back to at least .500 with Wilson  in year 3. If he’s not the answer we pull off a Colts, LA, TB type power play to get their Qb closer

I hate that kind of seesawing.  Just because you draft a rookie QB who fails doesn't mean you have to swing the other direction with a vet.  Go draft another QB and try again.  Like the Cardinals did in back to back years (Rosen then Murray).  

[mfmartin]

I’m guessing you believe players never get injured in this league? 
Not like he’s some injury prone LB that can’t come back strong. He missed 3 games in 5 years in Baltimore. He’s going to be our best defender. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that out. 

He has been away two years. That’s quite some time. You can’t just expect him to come back and be what he was previously.


Sent from my iPhone using JetNation.com mobile app

[THE BARON]

3 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Maybe.  I think the Johnson's have no interest in having to hit the reset button again any time soon.  Even in 3 years, which seems like a while but really isn't for this ownership group, considering how many times they've had to hire a new GM/HC.

Douglas is the first halfway decent GM we've had since maybe Tannenbaum.  And he's probably better than Tannenbaum, and not by a slim margin either.  They think so much of him that they've basically handed him the keys to the franchise, something they've been unwilling to do with prior GM's.

I think if the team is competitive but Wilson sucks, Douglas will get another crack with a different QB.  There's not going to be some playoff mandate if the rest of the roster as a whole is moving in the right direction but merely held back by having taken the wrong QB.

Makes sense... Lets see how things play out.  I'm still suffering the aftershocks of the Jets needlessly missing out on Trevor Lawrence.  I hope Wilson cures me.