Carolina Fan: Your sloppy seconds...

[DoubleDown]

Most of this board thinks it is a foregone conclusion that Darnold is going to fail in Carolina, and his career is essentially over.

Personally, I think he gets more of the blame on the Jets' failures than he deserves. There is a reason that the Jets were 0-10 in games not started by Darnold in the three years he was here. The team was complete and utter trash. He was the main reason this team had a puncher's chance any given week.

He was admittedly very poor last season and lost all confidence. He needs to build it back up if he is going to resurrect his career. But this narrative that he was trash from day 1 is nonsense. He showed lots of promise in years 1 and 2.

If Darnold looks good in week 1 and beats the Jets, this board is going to be in full melt down mode.

[genot]

11 minutes ago, Jet Nut said:

That’s true but he should have and could have shown more.  
You still should be able to show that you have the taken and show the reason you’re being held back is because of surrounding talent

With respect. I don't know what that means. If the only competent receiver you have is Crowder. If your TE is being used to block, and when he is being used he drops passes. If running backs aren'tbeing used intelligently or at all as receivers. Hiw much more can he show???.

[Jet Nut]

19 minutes ago, genot said:

With respect. I don't know what that means. If the only competent receiver you have is Crowder. If your TE is being used to block, and when he is being used he drops passes. If running backs aren'tbeing used intelligently or at all as receivers. Hiw much more can he show???.

Here, you can play on a crappy team, play crappy and show potential.  
Sam didn’t he just looked like alt

[genot]

1 minute ago, Jet Nut said:

Here, you can play on a crappy team, play crappy and show potential.  
Sam didn’t he just looked like alt

Watch his rookie highlights. Watch knowing he was a rookie and was going to struggle at times. Watch what he able to do in the pocket and in the move. His mobility was evident. His arm strength and quick release was obvious. It was something everybody was very exited about. Then Gase was hired. Nothing was done to improve the personal around him. His growth and progression from his rookie year came to a grinding halt.

[Jetsfan80]

8 hours ago, Maxman said:

Not sure if it was already posted but here is the thread where they called out JetNation:

https://www.carolinahuddle.com/topic/171329-dems-fightin-words-right-der/

Their post reaction emojis are pie, beer, and fire, and I'm guessing they all mean the same thing.  "Good post".  

Friggin rednecks.  And I live in NC. 

[Jetsfan80]

6 hours ago, Rangers9 said:

I think the Jets are in a better place with Wilson than Darnold. But the Panthers org and HC Rhule who was considered for the Jets job think he has a future as their starter. 

And they would be wrong in that belief.  Simple as that.

[Jetsfan80]

5 hours ago, genot said:

The reason why i stand firm in ny belief that Sam can turn his career around is what he had here to help him. He had nothing. No group of reliable receivers. No running game. In the best of times an average group of pass protectors. And a complete incompetent as a HC the last two years. Suoport for a young QB, can't get any worse

Not one thing you listed above about your belief in Darnold has anything to do with Darnold's abilities or skills.  Only external variables.  

Fortunately, Carolina bought the idea that external variables were the only reasons Darnold didn't succeed too, and handed us a 2 & a 4.  Thanks Carolina.

[Jetsfan80]

5 hours ago, genot said:

Gase many times sent the wrong play design into the huddle. Sam had to on the spot correct it. Gase had trouble many times getting plays into the huddle. This is all fact. It's why he'll never sniff another coaching position in the NFL. Saw your post is based on historical fact.

Darnold couldn't make effective presnap reads at USC or under Bowles, either.  Gase didn't make him bad at that.

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, genot said:

Don't be silly. He's playing in Canada for good reason. Falk was a 6th rd pick for a reason. Darnild was evaluated. He was a 1st rd pick. Falk was evaluated. He was a 6th rd pick. Hipe your being a little funny here. You saw Falk. He couldn't even get the ball 15 yds downfield. 

Yes he's being funny.  And you're not realizing that the same excuses for Falk, in your mind, don't apply to Darnold too.  You're being inconsistent.

We all recognize that Darnold is better than Falk.  That's not the point.  The point is you cannot possible come up with a single valid reason why Darnold is significantly better than Falk other than his draft pedigree (which is not valid either, since 6th rounder Gardner Minshew is a lot better than Darnold).  And you know the minute you try your argument will get torn to shreds. 

Nothing Sam Darnold does on the football field is impressive, and even the things he does best (improvise/throw on the run) he sucked at hard last season.  Like when he ran out of bounds for a Sack in Week 1, or rolled out and threw into triple coverage against Indy for an easy pick (as part of a 3-INT game).  Or against Miami when he left a clean pocket and threw a terrible pick on the run, on a 5-yard throw.  And I'm not nitpicking/cherry-picking there, he sucked multiple times last year on plays like those.  Those are just the top 3 examples. 

[Salehery]

 

[Jetsfan80]

4 hours ago, genot said:

My argument that no QB could have succeeded given the circumstances Darnold played under. The jury, then, on Sam Darnold is still out. Based on natural ability, and proper. scheme and coaching, he has a chance to be a good QB 

Define your standards of "success".  Because "successful" to me would have Darnold being something like QB20-25 last season.  He was QB36.  And QB32 the 2 years prior.

You can evaluate QB's even in the worst of situations.  He's the same QB he was at USC.  He had great circumstances at USC and still led FBS in turnovers his final year.  We have 5 years of tape on him now.  He's the same guy he's always been.  At some point, you play enough games for multiple coaching staffs and you know what the guy is (or isn't).  His ceiling is QB25.

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, DoubleDown said:

Most of this board thinks it is a foregone conclusion that Darnold is going to fail in Carolina, and his career is essentially over.

Personally, I think he gets more of the blame on the Jets' failures than he deserves. There is a reason that the Jets were 0-10 in games not started by Darnold in the three years he was here. The team was complete and utter trash. He was the main reason this team had a puncher's chance any given week.

He was admittedly very poor last season and lost all confidence. He needs to build it back up if he is going to resurrect his career. But this narrative that he was trash from day 1 is nonsense. He showed lots of promise in years 1 and 2.

If Darnold looks good in week 1 and beats the Jets, this board is going to be in full melt down mode.

 

It is a QB's responsibility to be one of the best players on the field regardless of circumstances.  Darnold was consistently one of the 5 or so worst players on the field every game last year.  He didn't once lift up the play of his teammates last season.  And in fact it was Joe Flacco, and not Darnold, who was able to do, further proving that genot's point, that "no QB could have success last year" was wrong. 

35-year old skeleton Flacco, visibly looking like he didn't want to be on the field, looked competent and actually made his WR's look good.  Mims and Perriman had by far their best games with Flacco under center (which also proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, as if we didn't learn it to be true when he was paired with Robby Anderson, that Darnold sucks at deep ball accuracy).  And suddenly this supposedly terrible OL looked about middle of the pack.  

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, genot said:

With respect. I don't know what that means. If the only competent receiver you have is Crowder. If your TE is being used to block, and when he is being used he drops passes. If running backs aren'tbeing used intelligently or at all as receivers. Hiw much more can he show???.

Mims and Perriman looked more than competent with Flacco under center.  

[Jetsfan80]

3 hours ago, genot said:

Watch his rookie highlights. Watch knowing he was a rookie and was going to struggle at times. Watch what he able to do in the pocket and in the move. His mobility was evident. His arm strength and quick release was obvious. It was something everybody was very exited about. Then Gase was hired. Nothing was done to improve the personal around him. His growth and progression from his rookie year came to a grinding halt.

 

So about highlight videos....

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jet Nut]

3 hours ago, genot said:

Watch his rookie highlights. Watch knowing he was a rookie and was going to struggle at times. Watch what he able to do in the pocket and in the move. His mobility was evident. His arm strength and quick release was obvious. It was something everybody was very exited about. Then Gase was hired. Nothing was done to improve the personal around him. His growth and progression from his rookie year came to a grinding halt.

He has arm strength, but Darnold doesnt have some kind of quick release.  Look at his rookie motion and its lengthy if anything.  His accuracy was erratic.  

If Darnold didnt come in with fanfare, if he wasnt deemed a top prospect and people weren't high on him, his rookie year wouldnt have done much to make you think he would become a big time QB

[Defense Wins Championships]

41 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

So about highlight videos....

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Jetsfan80

you know what's funny about those Christian Hackenberg preseason highlights? Everyone makes a big deal about that game but he actually stunk during preseason and that was his only good game.

Look at those disgusting completion percentages, yards per pass attempt, INTs galore, sacks galore (9) with atrocious QB Ratings of 35 and 68? He's no Zach Wilson and that's for sure.

Some fans are telling me preseason doesn't matter but I'll just have to agree to disagree because Zach Wilson has me so fired up that he's made me forget all about Trevor Lawrence and Rookie QB or not I've never witnessed a Jets QB look so awesome during preseason games and I've watched over 30 of them dating back to Boomer Esiason.  

Preseason matters guys (just ask Christian Hackenberg and so many other Jets QBs who couldn't even make it out of Preseason withoutem embarrassment). 

[jgb]

5 hours ago, genot said:

My argument that no QB could have succeeded given the circumstances Darnold played under. The jury, then, on Sam Darnold is still out. Based on natural ability, and proper. scheme and coaching, he has a chance to be a good QB 

Yes that is exactly your opinion. Thus: Luke Falk deserves a starting job and $20M.

[rex-n-effect]

19 hours ago, jgb said:

But they didn’t need the option for any of this. Carolina apparently forgot about the franchise tag.

My kingdom for an argument why the option was a wise decision.

If they were committed to giving Darnold two years might as well pay less on the option than the franchise tag.

[genot]

14 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Yes he's being funny.  And you're not realizing that the same excuses for Falk, in your mind, don't apply to Darnold too.  You're being inconsistent.

We all recognize that Darnold is better than Falk.  That's not the point.  The point is you cannot possible come up with a single valid reason why Darnold is significantly better than Falk other than his draft pedigree (which is not valid either, since 6th rounder Gardner Minshew is a lot better than Darnold).  And you know the minute you try your argument will get torn to shreds. 

Nothing Sam Darnold does on the football field is impressive, and even the things he does best (improvise/throw on the run) he sucked at hard last season.  Like when he ran out of bounds for a Sack in Week 1, or rolled out and threw into triple coverage against Indy for an easy pick (as part of a 3-INT game).  Or against Miami when he left a clean pocket and threw a terrible pick on the run, on a 5-yard throw.  And I'm not nitpicking/cherry-picking there, he sucked multiple times last year on plays like those.  Those are just the top 3 examples. 

He has a great arm. A quick release. He's mobile. Can run when he has to and make something positive happen. He has good size for the postion.. Thats why he was a 1st rd pick. That's why up to 8 teams at some point inquired about his availability.

[genot]

14 hours ago, Jetsfan80 said:

 

So about highlight videos....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ryan leaf busted because he was a head case. Bobody could stand being around him. And now he's a convicted felon. Russell was a lazy good for nothing who hated the film room and the weight room.Hackenburg should have been drafted much later than he was. He was a stiff from the get go

[Legend Killa7]

17 hours ago, genot said:

Watch his rookie highlights. Watch knowing he was a rookie and was going to struggle at times. Watch what he able to do in the pocket and in the move. His mobility was evident. His arm strength and quick release was obvious. It was something everybody was very exited about. Then Gase was hired. Nothing was done to improve the personal around him. His growth and progression from his rookie year came to a grinding halt.

I think you nailed it.  Listen, I root for the laundry; Wilson is my guy.  I harbor no ill-will towards Sam - EXCEPT in week 1.  Hope Wilson outplays him massively!!

But I was just watching a couple of the preseason games from 2018, just to kind of compare (in my head) how Wilson is doing compared to Sam.  I do think Wilson looks a lot better, but I was surprised at what I saw out of Sam.  This was NOT the QB I remember watching last year.  he looked so confident; almost cocky.  yeah he was playing backups, but I do think the Jets ruined him.  can it be fixed, or is he doomed like Sanchez to just keep going from team to team as backup QB?  time will tell, but I thought at the time we had something, and I do think it was more the Jets ruining him than him not having "it". 

 

I just hope he doesn't have "it" again until after September 12th!!

[Biggs]

24 minutes ago, genot said:

He has a great arm. A quick release. He's mobile. Can run when he has to and make something positive happen. He has good size for the postion.. Thats why he was a 1st rd pick. That's why up to 8 teams at some point inquired about his availability.

His footwork sucks and he looks confused alot.  His release is mediocre.  He is big and mobile and can make some wow plays outside the pocket.  

Personally think getting coached by Matt Rhule isn't going to do him any favors.  

[Patriot Killa]

15 minutes ago, genot said:

Ryan leaf busted because he was a head case. Bobody could stand being around him. And now he's a convicted felon. Russell was a lazy good for nothing who hated the film room and the weight room.Hackenburg should have been drafted much later than he was. He was a stiff from the get go

I think you’re missing the point...

[genot]

6 minutes ago, Biggs said:

His footwork sucks and he looks confused alot.  His release is mediocre.  He is big and mobile and can make some wow plays outside the pocket.  

Personally think getting coached by Matt Rhule isn't going to do him any favors.  

Watch his rookie highlights. W atch his release. Very quick. As for him looking.confused. If your correct, we aren't in a position to know why. He has sloppy footwork, at times. He did at USC. Almost everybody thought it was something that could be easily corrected.

[Jetsfan80]

30 minutes ago, genot said:

Ryan leaf busted because he was a head case. Bobody could stand being around him. And now he's a convicted felon. Russell was a lazy good for nothing who hated the film room and the weight room.Hackenburg should have been drafted much later than he was. He was a stiff from the get go

How many more examples do you need.  I can do this all day.  Again, you can nitpick all you want but Darnold is in that very same category as those guys (and many others, if you need me to post their videos too), like it or not.  You're just not willing to make excuses for those guys.  Russell had tremendous natural ability Darnold can only dream of.   Quite a few scouts had Leaf over Peyton.  Hackenberg looked pretty damn good in those preseason games.  

My point was highlight videos can make even the worst QB's/biggest busts look good.  Of course Darnold's video succeeded in that as well.  But I don't see you looking at his lowlights video.  Maybe break all of those down for me and explain why Darnold wasn't to blame on any of them.

Highlight videos mean nothing to me.  These are pro athletes.  They're all rock stars compared to mere mortals.  They'll make plays from time to time.  What makes a franchise QB is the exact opposite kind of thing:  The consistent, boring, typical plays, done over and over, consistently over time.  Bad games should be few and far between, not the standard.  You shouldn't be forced to comb through hours of footage and only come up with a few nice plays here and there.  It should be fairly obvious that a guy can play the position.  Regardless of his circumstances.

"Flashes" mean nothing.  "Flashes" make a QB a career backup if he can't get the basics of the position down.  "Flashes" don't demonstrate a consistent ability to make presnap read, throw open receivers, or make good decisions.  Darnold never has been able to get the basics down and never will, and he lacks the genetic makeup to be a successful QB (he's a slow processor, a doofus, a boogie boarding, soft type of guy who can't stay healthy, etc etc).  

[genot]

4 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

How many more examples do you need.  I can do this all day.  

My point was highlight videos can make even the worst QB's/biggest busts look good.  Of course Darnold's succeeded in that as well.

Highlight videos mean nothing to me.  These are pro athletes.  They're all rock stars compared to mere mortals.  They'll make plays from time to time.  What makes a franchise QB is the exact opposite kind of thing:  The consistent, boring, typical plays, done over and over in correct fashion. 

"Flashes" mean nothing.  "Flashes" make a QB a career backup if he can't get the basics of the position down.  "Flashes" don't demonstrate a consistent ability to make presnap read, throw open receivers, or make good decisions.  Darnold never has been able to get the basics down and never will, and he lacks the genetic makeup to be a successful QB (he's a slow processor, a doofus, a boogie boarding, soft type of guy who can't stay healthy, etc etc).  

We'll see. He supposedly has picked up on Joe Smith's offense very well.

[Jetsfan80]

48 minutes ago, rex-n-effect said:

If they were committed to giving Darnold two years might as well pay less on the option than the franchise tag.

Well that's just the problem:  Committing 2 years to Darnold.  Why do that when they didn't have to?

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, genot said:

We'll see. He supposedly has picked up on Joe Smith's offense very well.

Cool!!!  I remember quite a few glowing summer reports on Darnold the last 3 years.  Produce or GTFO.  

[Jetsfan80]

1 hour ago, genot said:

He has a great arm. 

Nope.  His arm strength is a little above average compared to other NFL QB's.  It's like you don't watch any other QB's play when you make these absurd claims.  And you throw around words like "great" far too easily with Darnold.  He also has terrible deep ball accuracy/placement so it doesn't even matter how hard he throws.  Hence why deep threats Robby Anderson, Denzel Mims, and Breshad Perriman have had far more success with other QB's.

 

1 hour ago, genot said:

A quick release. 

That's fair.  

 

1 hour ago, genot said:

He's mobile. 

OK, but that mobility has to lead somewhere other than out of bounds sacks or throws into triple coverage.  He's no more mobile than a lot of other QB's in this league.  Have you been paying attention to that?  He's nowhere close to as mobile (and I mean mobility that gets you nice runs and/or completions) as Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Pat Mahomes, Russell Wilson (even in his old age), Joe Burrow, the new guys Fields, Lawrence and Lance.  Even a guy like Daniel Jones (who sucks) is more mobile than Darnold.  

 

1 hour ago, genot said:

Can run when he has to and make something positive happen. 

Rarely.  More often he does something negative.  You just ignore those plays.  And I know you do because you've ignored the posts where I pointed them out to you.

 

1 hour ago, genot said:

 Thats why he was a 1st rd pick. 

No one cares about a player's draft pedigree 4 years into his career.  His 1st round pedigree will only keep him bouncing around the league awhile, like Sam Bradford, Mark Sanchez, Joey Harrington, RG3, Vince Young, and Josh Rosen did/have.  Otherwise it simply does not matter. 

Either you can play or you can't.  He's a veteran NFL player at this point.  Not a kid any longer like you love to argue.  Gardner Minshew was a 6th round pick and is a better QB by a pretty significant margin.  Draft pedigree only opens a door for you.  Darnold still has to step through it.  

I'd also be curious to see if you're willing to make similar excuses for Mitchell Trubisky.  Another fellow top 5 pick who has been vastly superior to Darnold, statistically, in this league.  Actually, I'm not curious at all.  I know you wouldn't.  Only Sweet Sammy gets the excuses.  Everyone else either sucks or just has better circumstances.  

 

1 hour ago, genot said:

 That's why up to 8 teams at some point inquired about his availability.

See my above point.  Teams inquiring about a QB mean nothing.  Lots of highly-drafted QB's have failed miserably at their next stop and teams still pick them up. 

Mark Sanchez bounced around to 4 different teams post-Jets.  Bradford 3 teams.  Josh Rosen is already on his 4th team.  And Rosen was traded to Miami for a similar package of picks that Darnold netted from Carolina.  He only lasted 1 year there.

[genot]

12 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Cool!!!  I remember quite a few glowing summer reports on Darnold the last 3 years.  Produce or GTFO.  

That was the Jet's attitude. Your the 3rd pick in the draft. Nothing else matters. Win games. Throw for 300yds a game. Don't work that way 80.

[Jetsfan80]

27 minutes ago, genot said:

Watch his rookie highlights. W atch his release. Very quick. As for him looking.confused. If your correct, we aren't in a position to know why. He has sloppy footwork, at times. He did at USC. Almost everybody thought it was something that could be easily corrected.

Sure we are.  This isn't theoretical physics.  Even armchair coaches like us can point out several reasons why Darnold looks confused all the time.  I've pointed out several of them in this thread.  You just don't want to hear them, and prefer to think its some tragic mystery.  It really isn't.  

And yes, I really am also arguing that Matt Rhule willfully ignored Darnold's numerous red flags because he has some level of arrogance to think he can "fix" the kid.  We've seen how that's gone already.  Nothing but excuses for his preseason performance, similar to the very kinds of excuses you've been making for him for years.  

[genot]

6 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Nope.  His arm strength is a little above average compared to other NFL QB's.  It's like you don't watch any other QB's play when you make these absurd claims.  And you throw around words like "great" far too easily with Darnold.  He also has terrible deep ball accuracy/placement so it doesn't even matter how hard he throws.  Hence why deep threats Robby Anderson, Denzel Mims, and Breshad Perriman have had far more success with other QB's.

 

That's fair.  

 

OK, but that mobility has to lead somewhere other than out of bounds sacks or throws into triple coverage.  He's no more mobile than a lot of other QB's in this league.  Have you been paying attention to that?  He's nowhere close to as mobile (and I mean mobility that gets you nice runs and/or completions) as Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Pat Mahomes, Russell Wilson (even in his old age), Joe Burrow, the new guys Fields, Lawrence and Lance.  Even a guy like Daniel Jones (who sucks) is more mobile than Darnold.  

 

Rarely.  More often he does something negative.  You just ignore those plays.  And I know you do because you've ignored the posts where I pointed them out to you.

 

No one cares about a player's draft pedigree 4 years into his career.  His 1st round pedigree will only keep him bouncing around the league awhile, like Sam Bradford, Mark Sanchez, Joey Harrington, RG3, Vince Young, and Josh Rosen did/have.

 

See my above point.  Teams inquiring about a QB mean nothing.  Lots of highly-drafted QB's have failed miserably at their next stop and teams still pick them up. 

Mark Sanchez bounced around to 4 different teams post-Jets.  Bradford 3 teams.  Josh Rosen is already on his 4th team.  And Rosen was traded to Miami for a similar package of picks that Darnold netted from Carolina.  He only lasted 1 year there.

Im sure they're aware of the Jet's and thier problems. Darnold might bounce around the league, like Sanchez Then again, he might not.we don't know what's going to happen with Sam. 

[Jetsfan80]

7 minutes ago, genot said:

That was the Jet's attitude. Your the 3rd pick in the draft. Nothing else matters. Win games. Throw for 300yds a game. Don't work that way 80.

This is nonsense.  Who ever acted like that was the expectation in NY?  

And I never expected Darnold to throw for 300 a game.  It would have been nice to join the modern NFL, but I knew that was unrealistic, because I really do acknowledge the team sucked.  But I expected some level of competence that grew over time.  It never happened. 

You seem to operate under this delusion that I expected Darnold to be an immediate Pro Bowl QB.  My expectation was for Darnold to be a borderline top 20 QB in the first year or 2 who eventually grew into a top 10 guy.  I expected him to be one of the top 5 or so players on the field with consistency by his 2nd/3rd year.  You know, like you hope to get when you take a QB top 5.  It never happened and never will.  He fell tremendously well short of those modest expectations.  Good thing he's Carolina's problem and not ours.  Maybe Wilson will bust too but at least he's shown some pretty good signs so far and didn't have the glaring faults Darnold did as a prospect.

[Jetsfan80]

3 minutes ago, genot said:

Im sure they're aware of the Jet's and thier problems. Darnold might bounce around the league, like Sanchez Then again, he might not.we don't know what's going to happen with Sam. 

I'll take my 95+ % odds (based on historical trends/actual performance) over your 5 % shot any day.  He reminds me of Sanchez (who was better) and that's the route it went for him. 

Darnold will need to do a lot to prove me wrong.  So far, nothing that he's done this summer has demonstrated he will.

[genot]

1 minute ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Sure we are.  This isn't theoretical physics.  Even armchair coaches like us can point out several reasons why Darnold looks confused all the time.  I've pointed out several of them in this thread.  You just don't want to hear them, and prefer to think its some tragic mystery.  It really isn't.  

And yes, I really am also arguing that Matt Rhule willfully ignored Darnold's numerous red flags because he has some level of arrogance to think he can "fix" the kid.  We've seen how that's gone already.  Nothing but excuses for his preseason performance, similar to the very kinds of excuses you've been making for him for years.  

He might look confused because his Wide receiver might not have been in the right spot on a timing route. Or someone ran the wrong route. Maybe he was confused. Maybe the slop he had was a reason for the confusion. That's something we don't know. Not based on a lack of knowledge. We just don't know what a particular play was ran correctly.