Zach Wilson: "Could Be Ready for Week 1"

[jgb]

Just now, slimjasi said:

A slightly better passer rating does not equate to a better performance. Passer rating is one metric. Josh Allen has the sixth best QBR in the league last year - there are not 5 QBs I would have taken over him last year.

 

I’ll stand by my original statement - the three best Jet QB performances I saw last year were vs Titans, vs Bengals, and vs. Bucs 

When facts are inconvenient...

[slimjasi]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Zach Wilson was playing in mop-up time the entire season. 

This sounds clever but doesn’t actually add anything to the discussion at hand - it also doesn’t apply to any of the games we are discussing. 

[Hal N of Provo]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

You're entitled to your opinion but not mine. When you have to make up someone's argument, then your's is as week as BYU's knee.

I’m entitled to my opinion of how dumb some of yours are and am free to point it out 

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Dick Vermeil had one of the great quotes about scouting players, as he did for the bulk of his career when most scouting was based on word of mouth: “If they tell you he runs a 4.3, he runs a 4.6. If they tell you he runs a 4.6, he runs a five-oh.” The Legend of Zach running a 4.5/40 is just that. If he could have run a 4.5, he would absolutely have put that on the record.

I'm not disputing he has above-average long-stride speed. But he's not some quick twitch jitterbug athlete making guys miss in space. And he's terrible by the metrics in avoiding the rush in a way to not crater the chances of achieving a positive play (for example, running backwards from pressure).

[Gastineau Lives]

26 minutes ago, jgb said:

You're weren't watching.

[munchmemory]

6 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Zach Wilson was playing in mop-up time the entire season. It’s not Josh Johnson’s—or Zach’s—fault that the Great Bob Saleh’s defense was soft as baby sh*t. That first quarter versus Indianapolis should have gotten Ulbrich escorted out of the building.

Judging by the weak conference and teams he played, you could argue Zach was in mop-up time in college, too.

[jgb]

2 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

I’m entitled to my opinion of how dumb some of yours are and am free to point it out 

Then show us. You said I said something. I deny it -- or at least accuse you of grossly distorting the context of such statement, if it exists.

I know you're not big on providing evidence for your assertions, but this is an easy one to support.

Come on Hal, slay the nasty troll with facts!

[jgb]

Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

You're weren't watching.

then why are my corneas still bleeding?

[slimjasi]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

When facts are inconvenient...

This is a fallacy. 
 

The argument isn’t that there weren’t 3 better better QBR performances, the argument is that QBR is only one metric - you are basically suggesting that the only way to rate QB performances is QBR. 
 

I find that take to be fairly absurd 

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

This sounds clever but doesn’t actually add anything to the discussion at hand - it also doesn’t apply to any of the games we are discussing. 

Let me rephrase: the Jets were 2-8 in their first ten games. They were 1-5 through their first six. At no point was Zach Wilson throwing a leveraged pass that mattered. 

[jgb]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

This is a fallacy. 
 

The argument isn’t that there weren’t 3 better better QBR performances, the argument is that QBR is only one metric - you are basically suggesting that the only way to rate QB performances is QBR. 
 

I find that take to be fairly absurd 

Then produce an alternative metric that supports your assertion. I'm sorry but "some random Internet guy's eye test" isn't swaying anyone. 

[Gastineau Lives]

5 minutes ago, jgb said:

then why are my corneas still bleeding?

Karma? 

[Jetsfan80]

9 minutes ago, slimjasi said:

A slightly better passer rating does not equate to a better performance. Passer rating is one metric. Josh Allen had the sixth best QBR in the league last year - there are not 5 QBs I would have taken over him last year.

 

I’ll stand by my original statement - the three best Jet QB performances I saw last year were vs Titans, vs Bengals, and vs. Bucs 

Slightly better?  It was a distant 4th.

[Jetsfan80]

8 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

You're weren't watching.

You were seeing what you wanted to see. 

[jgb]

8 minutes ago, Hal N of Provo said:

He did and he knows he did.  I was trying to get him to agree to the easiest - Wilson is elusive - and he wouldn’t even do that.  
 

the search function on JN doesn’t work great for me so I’ll pass on spending hours looking for it at that point but it stretched out for a while.  

There go those goalposts. I disagreed with your statement that he was especially elusive. 

I'll give you 10-to-1 odds that I didn't say he has "no positive traits." Your $100 to my $1000.

[jgb]

3 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

Slightly better?  It was a distant 4th.

4th outta 4!  Almost on the podium, baby!

[FidelioJet]

26 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

There’s a difference between acknowledging Wilson’s positive traits and doing what some are doing in this thread:  Claiming Wilson has EXCEPTIONAL or elite traits.  Other than arm strength he simply doesn’t compared to the rest of the NFLs starting QBs.  

This is literally one of the more absurd post on this forum.   He was the #2 overall pick in an NFL draft because he has elite traits.   Very few actually argue that point, you’re condescending position of self righteousness about this is bizarre. 
 

If you want to say he’s been in able to put those traits together, sure. He hasn’t proven he can.  But the traits are all there.  

[jgb]

5 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

Karma? 

One needs a conscience to be bothered by such triviality. 

[Gastineau Lives]

2 minutes ago, jgb said:

One needs a conscience to be bothered by such triviality. 

Ok Darth 

[T0mShane]

3 minutes ago, munchmemory said:

Judging by the weak conference and teams he played, you could argue Zach was in mop-up time in college, too.

Sacked 11 times in 12 games his last year in college, playing for nothing of value in a COVID year. They played two ranked opponents and went 1-1, beating #21 Boise State at home and losing to #18 Coastal Carolina on the road.

[slimjasi]

11 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

So wait:  Shane isn’t allowed to add context to the Titans game, but you’re allowed to add context to the Josh Johnson game?

Johnsom is about to be signed by his 15th different team in 15 years (some of those not even NFL teams).  He has no business putting up a better statistical performance than a # 2 overall pick / exceptional athlete.  But he did.  

No, no, no, no. Shane didn’t “add context” - he tried to say - “take away two of the most impactful plays of the game and it wasn’t that good of a performance.” Imagine if we started doing that for every game we analyzed? Let’s take away a couple of the longish screen passes Mike White threw in the Bengals game. Better yet, let’s take away the (awesome) tackle that Michael Carter made in that game to prevent a pick six and result in a Jets goal line stand. Not fair? I agree! 
 

and Josh Johnson performed admirably in relief, no question, but I can’t realistically call it one of the three best Jets QB performances of last year just because he had a high QBR after being down by 35 points. I don’t think football works that way. 

[jgb]

Just now, Gastineau Lives said:

Ok Darth 

I actually caused the QB's injury. I was on the sideline.

[Gastineau Lives]

8 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

You were seeing what you wanted to see. 

I'm really not. If I wasn't in Rome resting before seeing Lazio v Napoli tonight, I'd go through every video of every game for you.

Its kind of fun getting double teamed by the Sisters of Darkness and their goofy Irish cousin though.

[slimjasi]

11 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Let me rephrase: the Jets were 2-8 in their first ten games. They were 1-5 through their first six. At no point was Zach Wilson throwing a leveraged pass that mattered. 

This is just nonsense. LOL

Wilson had the Jets in one score games late in Carolina (week 1) and against Atlanta in London (week 5) and the Titans game (which we WON in overtime) was in week 4. 
 
Btw, the Mike White game came after the team was 1-5.

“At no point was Zach Wilson throwing a leveraged pass that mattered” 

mmmk 

[Gastineau Lives]

7 minutes ago, jgb said:

I actually caused the QB's injury. I was on the sideline.

@Facts

[T0mShane]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

This is just nonsense. LOL

Wilson had the Jets in one score games late in Carolina (week 1) and against Atlanta in London (week 5) and the Titans game (which we WON in overtime) was in week 4. 
 
Btw, the Mike White game came after the team was 1-5.

“At no point was Zach Wilson throwing a leveraged pass that mattered” 

mmmk 

You’re ignoring the Mike White-Josh Johnson performance against the Colts and their 8th ranked defense because why?

[Jetsfan80]

12 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

Sacked 11 times in 12 games his last year in college, playing for nothing of value in a COVID year. They played two ranked opponents and went 1-1, beating #21 Boise State at home and losing to #18 Coastal Carolina on the road.

“Elite escapability”

[Jetsfan80]

11 minutes ago, Gastineau Lives said:

I'm really not. If I wasn't in Rome resting before seeing Lazio v Napoli tonight, I'd go through every video of every game for you.

Its kind of fun getting double teamed by the Sisters of Darkness and their goofy Irish cousin though.

It’s kind of fun for me to see just how little Jets fans seem to watch other QBs around the league.  

[Gastineau Lives]

4 minutes ago, T0mShane said:

You’re ignoring the Mike White-Josh Johnson performance against the Colts and their 8th ranked defense because why?

He looked good until he went noodle forearm

[slimjasi]

15 minutes ago, jgb said:

Then produce an alternative metric that supports your assertion. I'm sorry but "some random Internet guy's eye test" isn't swaying anyone. 

I’m genuinely curious what you are arguing - are you saying that if you don’t have a statistical metric that matches up perfectly with how you would rank a given number of performances, that your rankings are somehow invalid? 
 

There is no single metric I am aware of that reflects football performances well enough for that. 
 

Just so we are clear on how much I disagree here, there are probably OTHER Jets QB performances from last year that I would take over the Josh Johnson mop up duty game.
 

For instance, I would probably take Joe Flacco’s game against Miami over what Josh Johnson did in Indy. Flacco put up decent numbers (291 yards, 2 TDs), but the key is that he had us in the game until the end and tied the game late on a big TD pass to Moore. In other words, he gave us a chance to actually win the game. 
 

Josh Johnson didn’t put up a single point until the team was down by 5 TDs in the second half. This is why context is important and why you get in trouble when you blindly rank games by a single metric like QBR. 
 

I think it’s important to remember what the QB is actually paid to do. 

[Gastineau Lives]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

It’s kind of fun for me to see just how little Jets fans seem to watch other QBs around the league.  

I should be watching more than the 15 hours that I'm doing already.

You get so pathological, 80

[fastmover]

3 hours ago, Warfish said:

That's generally what happens on the internet when random low-post-count posters make wild unlikely claims they cannot support. 

They get mocked and people make jokes.  I, for one, thought my joke was pretty darn tame.  Hardly "tearing his ass off".

If I start a thread today saying "Trust me, I can't tell you how I know, but my brosef knows Flacco personally, and he assures me he is starting Week 1", I'm gonna get the same treatment.   

That's just how it works online.  Because 99% of such claims are pure BS. 

You never have to read it.  You have all the power over the content you consume here and from whom you consume it.  

Also, you have what, 500 posts over 16 years here at JN?  Perhaps you should help create the content here in this community.  Post more often, have a say, speak your mind. 

Communities reflect their most active participants.  Respectfully, a guy with 500 posts over 16 years is basically a passive consumer of this community, not an active member.  If you really want to improve the discourse, or change the various narratives, then be more active.  

Lmfao….. wow you schooled me, huh? I had no idea that’s how the online forums work! I feel enlightened! This is f’ing amazing! It’s a whole new world for me!!!!  
Do you think I should watch how I dress when I go to the city for a night out? Should I not accept candy from strangers? 

FFS… the arrogance of you think I need to be schooled on forums, amazing. 
yes you’re correct I control the content I take in, just as I control the content I create. Think about that for a minute. 
 

The  simple point is this, the amount of threads that are hi-jacked with the same talking points against a certain player or players, that are hi-jacked by the same usual suspects, have increased in frequency. This is what needs to be moderated better by the Mods or by Max. 
 

thanks for the education though!

 

Semper Fi

[jgb]

1 minute ago, slimjasi said:

I’m genuinely curious what you are arguing - are you saying that if you don’t have a statistical metric that matches up perfectly with how you would rank a given number of performances, that your rankings are somehow invalid? 
 

There is no single metric I am aware of that reflects football performances well enough for that. 
 

Just so we are clear on how much I disagree here, there are probably OTHER Jets QB performances from last year that I would take over the Josh Johnson mop up duty game.
 

For instance, I would probably take Joe Flacco’s game against Miami over what Josh Johnson did in Indy. Flacco put up decent numbers (291 yards, 2 TDs), but the key is that he had us in the game until the end and tied the game late on a big TD pass to Moore. In other words, he gave us a chance to actually win the game. 
 

Josh Johnson didn’t put up a single point until the team was down by 5 TDs in the second half. This is why context is important and why you get in trouble when you blindly rank games by a single metric like QBR. 
 

I think it’s important to remember what the QB is actually paid to do. 

I'm not saying it's invalid, I'm saying it's not persuasive to me weighed against the actual empirical data we have. 

[slimjasi]

5 minutes ago, Jetsfan80 said:

“Elite escapability”

His issue wasn’t his escapability last year (which was good), it was his inability to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball (especially early in the year). 
 

Him taking sacks wasn’t because he wasn’t making guys miss, it was because he was holding the ball forever. 

[FidelioJet]

16 hours ago, doitny said:

thats all good but he cant be like Kelly Bundy where his brain can only hold so much information that every time he learns something new he forgets something old.

he started last year being bad at the short passes but pretty good with the deep stuff, or at least he tried to go deep. end of the season he got much better at the short pass but stop throwing it long. like he forgot how. without going long he just Mike White in a different jersey.

Sure.  He has to put it all together.  

But what you guys are trying to do is say because he sucked 7 of his first 8 games, coming out a small school after 3 years in college - he's a sure fire bust.  It really is silly.

It started out rough for him - but he evolved, learned, got better.  He still has a long way to go - but showing that growth was important.

Yes, he has to be able to be accurate and smart in the short passing game and also push the ball down field and manage the pocket properly and get rid of the ball quickly etc.  All of which he's shown the ability to do at times.  He has to be consistent at all of them if he's going to be good.  That's the big question.  Can he put it all together, consistently?

I believe he will, some believe he won't - and then there are the others that just think he sucks, has no chance of being good and his talent level and skill-set is not good enough to be in the NFL.  

We'll know a lot more in a. couple of weeks.